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galileoreloaded Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-17-08 06:57 PM
Original message
Economic Armageddon, Part 2 (for the fans)
This was my response from a post today, regarding Money Markets. Let me add a little.

EVERY investment vehicle has exposure. EVERY ONE. I completely understand confusion and a lack of in depth knowledge as a reason to "stand pat", but as a professional IN THIS BUSINESS, you guys are risking your futures and retirements in a game the big boys are seriously balking at. I can't put it any more clearly than this. When this is over, every home, IRA, Money Market, and US dollar will be worth 20% of what it is today. Available working capital, the true reason for a credit based system, has evaporated. Business and the public sector is 100% tapped out, has no credit from which to draw, and will NEVER be recapitalized in ways most laymen will understand.

Total Debt to GDP ratio running at 360%, (more like 380% after all the recent idiocy) and that deleveraging process will absorb your money, our money, all of it. There will be no more overseas loans of any stature. Why do you think the FED and Treasury are bailing out the banks and not Soverign wealth funds?? The funds got hooked by our banks last spring, and between the BIS (Bank of International Settlements) and the IMF, we have been told NO CASH. But they will buy the EQUITIES of the US in the form of bonds, that the Treasury sells to cover their debts AFTER they bail everybody out. Get it yet?? If a Sovereign invests directly into the market, there is risk to the capital either through loss or dilution (well, they actually have ratchet clauses but I digress). If the .gov bails them out, then the new T-bills and US Bonds are backed by a little piece of country. They also want those bonds back here so they can implode on shore, and not effect emerging markets. Read emerging markets to mean "non-aging populous, high gross ratio of total debt/natural resource value.

5% of Total Money, or the no longer published M3, was physical cash, dollars and coin. If M3 is as high as I think it is NOW, that number has dwindled to about 3.7%. It cost ACTUAL money to print dollars, and cost nothing to increase electronic money as credit. Guess which one gets a boost??

This is why they are attempting to calm and quash rumor, because in the land of the blind, the one eyed man is king, and in the land of debit, the man with a grand can buy a house.

If the deflation don't get ya, hyperinflation will. We exist on a knife edge right now, as evidenced by the wishy washy "bail or not to bail" headlines, because they have no idea what to do.

I kind of laugh at the "NO F*&^% BAILOUTS" crowd of both parties, as if they got their wish, you would see a level of poverty and renewed totalitarianism unlike anything we have ever seen, short of maybe Pol Pot or Pinochet. At this point, conventional wisdom says a good ol war oughta do the trick, and as Russia is having they're fair share of issues, will probably oblige.

Back to topic. The only thing that is sure, is to get a good chunk of that little bit of cash home. DO NOT put it in a safe deposit box at a bank. Custodial accounts were the first to be "nationalized" by FDR, and no matter how you feel about him now, he ate up a lot of capital and regular people's savings and in doing so literally wiped out many who thought they had "safe" investments, in gold.

Desperate times and desperate measures and all that.



From the FDIC site:

http://www.fdic.gov/consumers/consumer/information/fdiciorn.html

"So - you feel your cash is safe and protected when you walk through the door of the bank or saving association, much safer than when you kept it under your mattress. And you should. BUT, are your funds all covered by FDIC insurance just because you walked into a secure-looking building with iron bars and guards? Not necessarily - it depends on which of the bank's products you decide to use and whether the bank is FDIC insured."

Lets look at what happened today. A big part is a "Liquidity Trap" as evidenced by the three month T-bill falling to Zero, as large, LARGE investors focus on a return OF investment, not ON investment. Why would anyone, especially a smart guy (you hope) take a 0% position on ANYTHING. Because he isn't sure he can get the money back from ANYTHING ELSE. This is pure fear, that in turn pulls so much loose cash off the table, that other sectors start locking up for lack of funds. Ask yourself, where do you work?? If they can't make payroll because sales are off, what do they do? Well, you hope they go to a credit line, but if not, no checky for you!! Credit lines, for most companies, are bundled and rated (alot like subprime mortgages, prime mortgages, etc.) as corporate bonds. If everybody is buying Treasury bills for .5 or 0%, that means they have no faith in the ability of the business' of America to sustain their growth, and hence repay those lines much less issue new ones. Nobody is really buying corporate bonds at 10% or 20%, right now. This is known as a spread. There are many kinds, treasury to AAA corporate is important. The wider the disparity, the wider the spread, and this can indicate structural business issues. Hence credit, or liquidity gets trapped. Inflation compounds this as revenues don't generally rise as fast as prices, so credit line management becomes critical to your paycheck.

Tell me if you like this one, and I will feed you more.

Thanks for listening.
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Aqaba Donating Member (781 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-17-08 07:01 PM
Response to Original message
1. The Potential End Of America's Government
Here's a link to Karl Deninger's video from today. Its definitely something to think about. He talks about the risk of hyperinflation as the Treasury prints money to bail out these failed banksters.

http://market-ticker.denninger.net/archives/584-The-Potential-End-Of-Americas-Government.html">The Potential End Of America's Government

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slewfoot Donating Member (50 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-17-08 07:03 PM
Response to Original message
2. Keep it coming...
Great posts; part 1 and 2
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juno jones Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-17-08 07:19 PM
Response to Original message
3. Could you post a link to your first post?
Very interesting information. Thank you.
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galileoreloaded Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-17-08 07:27 PM
Response to Original message
4. Sure.
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Holly_Hobby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-17-08 07:40 PM
Response to Original message
5. I don't pretend to understand, but I have a few questions
if you don't mind?

1. I withdrew our savings today in cash and my Credit Union did not want to give it to me. They wanted to give me a check. I told them I was buying a used car and the seller wanted cash. We have a safe, so I put it in there. Is that where it should be?

2. Is this implosion the entire point of Bush's presidency? Was it their plan all along? If so, how do they benefit by this?

Thanks, you're a genius.
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galileoreloaded Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-17-08 09:56 PM
Response to Reply #5
11. I will never tell you where to put anything...
1. and you should do what you feel is right. just don't tell anybody. Most banks, especially now days will limit you to a cash limit. My US bank only keeps a couple hundred G's on tap, so they get stingy sometimes. Thank you fractional banking. Not indicative of anything more than a policy. Or not. I wouldn't know in either regard. Sorry.

2. I don't think so. It has less to do with individuals, and more to do with a gamed system, and abject greed. These guys are smart, but were not content with "average" profits. No promotions in that. Politics, going back many years, has been a bedfellow to Finance, and I think the just self reinforce. It is undoubtedly easier to game the system with a willing accomplice.
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akwapez Donating Member (342 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-17-08 07:45 PM
Response to Original message
6. when?
You said, "When this is over, every home, IRA, Money Market, and US dollar will be worth 20% of what it is today."

Care to predict how fast this will occur?
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galileoreloaded Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-17-08 10:29 PM
Response to Reply #6
12. 6 months. Ten years........
Edited on Wed Sep-17-08 10:30 PM by galileoreloaded
Hard to say. I was going to post a chart from NDR, but you will have to go to this link and look.
http://bp3.blogger.com/_rWY3qGfe6gc/SI1dtCRoXGI/AAAAAAAAA5o/FCp7-0EiyKI/s1600-h/Picture+1.png

Doesn't look to good to me.
Edited for poor LinkFu. Try to right click and Open Link.
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dana_b Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-17-08 07:57 PM
Response to Original message
7. thank you so much
some of us simply don't understand the basics.
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lonestarnot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-17-08 07:58 PM
Response to Original message
8. I remember my outrage when they stopped publishing M3 in 2006.
I still have the rage!
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lonestarnot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-17-08 07:59 PM
Response to Original message
9. Oh and what do you think about credit unions?
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A HERETIC I AM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-17-08 08:35 PM
Response to Original message
10. Wait a sec...you are "a professional IN THIS BUSINESS"? OK, what's the formula for calculating
Yield to maturity on a Premium bond?

I'm curious because I like to do math problems and I want to see what the YTM on a 30 yr Treasury is today, if I buy it at 107.08.

If that 30 year bond is priced at 107.08 according to this page on Bloomberg, how much will it cost me to buy just one? And how much will I receive in interest payments per year?

BTW, according to that page, the 90 day didn't quite fall to zero. The yield is .07%. Damn close to zero but not zero.
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galileoreloaded Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-17-08 11:41 PM
Response to Reply #10
17. Here you go, but I kind of have a issue with your question....
I get the feeling by your statement that you take issue with my posts, and perhaps feel a need to 'vet' me as it were. Perhaps this is not your intention, but if it is, I assure you that I have little time nor patience to argue given that I don't see a whole lot of people here talking about markets and the basic mechanics behind them. By the way, do you think people who bought automaker and some muni bonds say, 15 years ago, ever thought they would be staring down the specter of cross-platform insolvency among America's big three and some of her largest cities and counties??? I am trying to give reality based analysis in a very fluid environment, in my free time to boot, and I don't think I will answer any "vetting" questions in the future.

Unsolicited advice. Don't buy bonds. You'll probably lose your ass, as without cracking a book I found this formula in .25 seconds by Google, and I really don't think you'll get paid on a Treasury. Buy $1000 worth of firewood, probably get a better return.



Formula for Calculating Yield to Maturity, Yield to Call, or Yield to Put
B = C1 + C2 + Cn + P
_____ _____ ______ ______
(1+Y)1 (1+Y)2 (1+Y)n (1+Y)n


B = current bond price

C = coupon payment per period

P = par value of bond or call premium;

n = number of years until maturity
or until call or until put is exercised;

Y = yield to maturity, yield to call,
or yield to put per pay period
depending on which values of
n and P are chosen.

If you were being serious, then I apologise, and here is your request.
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A HERETIC I AM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-18-08 01:00 AM
Response to Reply #17
19. Your original post set off my bullshit meter.
Edited on Thu Sep-18-08 01:09 AM by A HERETIC I AM
This one doesn't help much at all.

If you are truly "a professional in the business" (I assume by "business" you meant the financial industry) then my questions above should have been a cakewalk for you.

Or are you not a Registered Representative?

I get the feeling by your statement that you take issue with my posts, and perhaps feel a need to 'vet' me as it were.
If by "take issue with" you mean "See if he is full of crap or not" then yes, I take an issue with this (the OP) post. For starters, you've been around here for two months (welcome, BTW) and I've never noticed any threads by you before and you claim to be a "professional" in your OP. OK, sure. I'm trying to find out if you really know what the fuck you are talking about or whether or not you are just another good writer with an opinion.

Perhaps this is not your intention, but if it is, I assure you that I have little time nor patience to argue given that I don't see a whole lot of people here talking about markets and the basic mechanics behind them.
Umm...they talk about the markets and the basic mechanics all the damned time on this board, in many different forums. Some are knowledgeable and some are not. Those that are truly knowledgeable offer good, appropriate advice and accurate information that can be verified. Some that are not truly knowledgeable like to think they are however, and often post erroneous or blatantly incorrect information. I'm sure they mean well, but accuracy regarding terminology, established procedures and the nature and elements of the various financial securities and accounts is important, don't you think? Particularly when it has to do with people's entire life savings?

By the way, do you think people who bought automaker and some muni bonds say, 15 years ago, ever thought they would be staring down the specter of cross-platform insolvency among America's big three and some of her largest cities and counties??? I am trying to give reality based analysis in a very fluid environment, in my free time to boot, and I don't think I will answer any "vetting" questions in the future.
Well, that confirms my good writing hypothesis. It sounds good as hell. But is it bullshit? Since 15 years ago was only 1993 and 4 years after Michael Moore's movie "Roger and Me" came out and the devastation that could be wrought on a major city (Flint) by the mass pullout of a major car maker (GM) was well known, I would have to say "yes", if people ("people who bought automaker and some muni bonds") knew anything about the car industry they could have reasonably expected larger troubles in auto and certain muni bonds. Oh, and by the way, thanks so very much for donating your "free time" to try and "give reality based analysis". How incredibly big of you to mention it.

Unsolicited advice. Don't buy bonds. You'll probably lose your ass, as without cracking a book I found this formula in .25 seconds by Google, and I really don't think you'll get paid on a Treasury. Buy $1000 worth of firewood, probably get a better return.

You really don't think I'll get paid on a Treasury? Really? What about the hundreds of billions of dollars worth of them that were traded today, yesterday and will be tomorrow? You think all those people won't get paid either? But you answered only one of my questions (and not very well, I might add). I mean, come on. You are a professional in the industry, and you seem to be giving direct, specific financial advice on a public message board, to wit: "The only thing that is sure, is to get a good chunk of that little bit of cash home. DO NOT put it in a safe deposit box at a bank." If you're really a pro and you are in the business, I find it fascinating you would offer such advice and the question "how does a Treasury priced at 107.08 convert to actual dollars" should be a walkover for you. Not to mention the answer to "how much will I receive in interest payments per year" was right on the page I linked and you didn't even answer that one.
Unsolicited rebuttal. Bonds are like they always have been. Some are toxic and some are not. More are toxic now then were a week ago and 12 months ago but there are still billions and billions of dollars worth of bonds out there that will continue to pay their coupons and mature at par, right on schedule. But hell, you're in the business! You know this already, right?

Feel free to not answer questions about the veracity of your claims, but like I said, my bullshit meter went off and it is nearly pegged. The financial markets are incredibly complex and the overwhelming majority of Americans (And that includes most DU'rs) are simply not that knowledgeable about them. Most people really don't know the difference between common stock, preferred stock and livestock. That's OK, though. That's why Financial Professionals have jobs, I suppose.

I am by no means an expert.

But I know what I know and I can spot a line of bullshit fairly easily.

Edited to add a sentence
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galileoreloaded Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-18-08 01:52 AM
Response to Reply #19
21. OK, I'm a fraud. You win. Take over. Congrats.
I officially hand the baton to you. Boy, not all DU'ers, but alot can get really nasty and unnecessarily so. 15 years was arbitrary timeframe meant to show lack of magic prognostication glasses, and the muni's referred to were Jefferson County, Alabama. That is why I wasn't SPECIFIC.

But I'm new, apparently a libertarian, and an idiot to boot. Funny, the only specific issue you verbalize regarding the accuracy of the opinions in the OP are related to my expressed desire not to argue on the internet in a subsequent post.
Oh, and this. Still wouldn't use a safe deposit box, as I prefer to have my assets be mine and liquid and not a liability to a bank. If you or an advisor at Morgan Stanley think that's dumb....... Oh wait, Morgan Stanley? Isn't that one of the last two investment giants standing??

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/18/business/18wall.html?_r=1&oref=slogin

“We need a merger partner or we’re not going to make it,” Mr. Mack told Mr. Pandit, according to two people briefed on the talks. Mr. Pandit, a former senior investment banker at Morgan Stanley, said Citigroup was not interested."

Probably not after tomorrow.

These were basics, and I was attempting not to bury people in article upon article, chart upon chart, as attention spans tend to fade, and lets face it, the CEO's don't even know whats going on.

But I shall defer to the greater of the two DU'ers. Your 1000+ posts beats me, and it's obvious you are quite well read at the very least, educated in Finance, and bright. I truly mean that. I look forward to your comments.
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A HERETIC I AM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-18-08 07:07 PM
Response to Reply #21
27. Oh, just relax, man. The time you've spent posting here has NOTHING to do with why I questioned..
Edited on Thu Sep-18-08 07:12 PM by A HERETIC I AM
your credentials. Nothing.

Each and every member of this board had 91 posts at one time or another and while I admit there is a healthy skepticism and sometimes outright hostility toward new members (justifiably so, in this election season) the fact that you are new had no bearing whatsoever on my questioning you.

I officially hand the baton to you. Boy, not all DU'ers, but alot can get really nasty and unnecessarily so.

Thanks, but no thanks. I don't want the baton, officially or not. I'm not trying to lead a band or anything else. I just like to see clear, accurate and precise information where this subject is concerned. I suppose I do owe you an apology for the tone of my first post above. It was unnecessarily snarky. This board is often lacking in civil discourse and I am loathe to contribute to that lack of civility. Regrettably, I probably too often do. So I'm sorry if I was an ass. But this particular subject (The Economy and investing in particular) are near and dear to my heart because I watched someone very close to me squander what would have been a nearly $5 million fortune because he refused to seek sound and professional advice when he needed it and when it was offered, ignored it as well as taking BAD advice all too often. This was to the utter and complete financial detriment to someone else very close to me.

When someone on this board says anything to the effect of "I am in the business" my ears (eyes?) perk up. Since I am fascinated by the economy and the markets, and not having a college degree in the subject, I look to an individual making such a claim as someone that I can learn from. Sadly, I found your post to be completely devoid of the sound judgment and reason I have come to expect from the others on DU who have admitted they are in the Securities Industry. NO ONE that I know on DU that is a Registered Representative (meaning a licensed or certified agent of one degree or another, and I know of literally only a handful) of ANY ethical standards at all would tell a group of complete strangers that they should all empty out their bank accounts and take the cash home with them. No one. It is irresponsible in the utmost to suggest such a thing to a widely diverse audience. It could possibly be perfectly sound advice to a certain percentage of your readers but you have absolutely no way of knowing who they are, and when you make such an incredibly broad declaration and do so with an assumed air of authority you do a massive disservice to the frightened and gullible. The giving of Financial advice is a regulated activity for Registered Representatives. It needs to be taken seriously, as it involves peoples hard earned money. If you aren't a licensed Advisor or Agent, you are free to say anything you want, but you should, in my opinion, make your lack of accreditation abundantly clear. People on this board ask for and others give specific investing and financial advice all the time. That advice is very often overwhelmingly wrong, completely inappropriate or physically or legally impossible. I see it all the time on DU. What bothers me is when someone claims to be in the business and attaches the word "Professional" to that claim and then says something no true professional would conscience.

I've been posting on this board since August of 2003 and with this post, my count will be just shy of 5,200. That's an average of a little over 2.7 posts a day. I'm not a prolific poster by any means. My 1000+ posts does not "beat" yours. It's just a bigger number. Don't sweat that shit and ignore the people who give you a hard time because you are new.

For the record, what I said above was
"For starters, you've been around here for two months (welcome, BTW) and I've never noticed any threads by you before and you claim to be a "professional" in your OP."

That's not a slam on you being new. It is merely a statement of my experience. I had not noticed you before.

Since you have yet to answer my questions, admittedly designed to see if you had studied the subject or passed a licensing exam, I'll give you the answers;

what's the formula for calculating Yield to Maturity on a Premium Bond?

The formula for determining the yield to maturity of a premium bond is

Annual Income - Annual Capital Loss
purchase price + redemption price/2
Which reads, for the mathematically challenged like me, thus;
Annual income (the amount you receive in interest payments) minus the annual capital loss (the average annual amount the bond will lose in value from purchase date to maturity date) divided by the purchase price plus the redemption price (usually Par) divided by two.

The answer to the Yield question is right on the link page - 4.19% as of this writing. If you use the above formula for a bond priced as illustrated below, you'll get 4.19%

If that 30 year bond is priced at 107.08 according to this page on Bloomberg, how much will it cost me to buy just one? (The figures have changed since last night, so I'll use the current ones, 30-Year 4.500 05/15/2038 105-08 / 4.19)

The answer requires that one know that Treasury Securities are priced as a percentage of par with the numbers to the right of the decimal representing 1/32 of a point. A Treasury priced at 105-08 sells for 105.25% of Par (Par is $1,000.00) so the cost of the bond in dollars is $1,052.50 (8/32 = 0.25)

And how much will I receive in interest payments per year?
This is the easiest question I asked because the answer is right there on the link. The "Coupon" is 4.5%. 4.5% of $1,000.00 is $45.00. You buy the 30 year bond for $1,052.50 and the United States Treasury will pay you $45 per year in interest payments per year for 30 years and on the maturity date you will get $1,000.00 back.


I'm not trying to act superior or show you up or anything of the sort. I am simply skeptical when someone claims to be a financial pro but writes posts like yours.

All the best, and again, welcome to Democratic Underground.


Edited for sentence structure
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-18-08 05:26 AM
Response to Reply #17
24. "I found this formula in .25 seconds by Google"
I could do that too, but it doesn't answer his question. What's the answer to the question, as you're a professional?
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dixiegrrrrl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-17-08 10:52 PM
Response to Original message
13. More, please...keep on with the info.


What I would find helpful to know:

practical tips are good.
What to watch for is good. ( signs,pattrns, the next step in the collapse, etc.)
what NOT to do is good.

tyvm..
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EmeraldCityGrl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-17-08 11:11 PM
Response to Original message
14. Charles Schwab. Are they on the same playing field as Goldman, Morgan Stanley
and so many others we've heard about? If the house of cards falls, how will the government be able to
meet the demands of those insured? It seems gold, silver, a little cash and a well stocked pantry are called for.

Geez...I sound like one of those survivalists I use to make fun of.
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A HERETIC I AM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-17-08 11:35 PM
Response to Reply #14
16. Goldman and Morgan do Investment Banking. Schwab does not.
http://www.aboutschwab.com/about/facts/index.html

http://www.morganstanley.com/institutional/invest_bank/corporate_advisory.html

http://www2.goldmansachs.com/services/services-for/institutions/index.html

Schwab does do banking and mortgage lending but Goldman and Morgan are the types of companies that underwrite bond issues. That means they are the ones who present your local municipality the ninety million dollar check when it has issued a Municipal Bond in order to put in a new sewer system.

That's the big leagues. Schwab is, by comparison in the little leagues in this regard, even though they are a large firm.
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Wednesdays Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-17-08 11:29 PM
Response to Original message
15. I seem to have seen this before...from a Libertarian here
"The only thing that is sure, is to get a good chunk of that little bit of cash home. DO NOT put it in a safe deposit box at a bank. Custodial accounts were the first to be "nationalized" by FDR, and no matter how you feel about him now, he ate up a lot of capital and regular people's savings and in doing so literally wiped out many who thought they had "safe" investments, in gold."

Yeah, that FDR was one vicious dude, wasn't he?
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galileoreloaded Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-18-08 12:02 AM
Response to Reply #15
18. Sigh. FDR wasn't vicious, but Executive Order 6102 happened. It is a historical fact.
Even if future generations thank you for an action, it has no less effect on the current citizens whom live the event. Let me ask you something sparky, lets say its not FDR but Bush, and its something else than Gold, lets say every gift card you got for the past two years. You going to give yours up???? Highly doubtful. In fact, you would probably fight like hell to maintain your private property rights even though future generations "might" benefit. That is the point, back then, people had faith in Gov.
Call me names if you want, but Thomas Paine said it best:

When we are planning for posterity, we ought to remember, that virtue is not hereditary.

Thomas Paine (1737 - 1809), Common Sense, 10 Jan 1776

Executive Order 6102
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Executive_Order_6102

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HCE SuiGeneris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-18-08 01:12 AM
Response to Original message
20. I'm not sure "like" is the correct term, but your perspective is interesting.
I would welcome reading more of your viewpoints. Welcome to DU.
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Greyhound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-18-08 04:42 AM
Response to Original message
22. Thanks for the posts and ignore the trolls. n/t
:kick:


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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-18-08 05:23 AM
Response to Original message
23. "Total Debt to GDP ratio running at 360%, (more like 380% after all the recent idiocy) "
2006 GDP = 13+ trillion
US debt = 9+ trillion

debt = 69% of gdp.

That's like me making 50K/year & taking out a mortgage for 34.5K.

Add the trillion or so that's been wiped out in the last couple of days to the debt, it's still nowhere near 360%.

I mistrust folks who come on hyping the fear. You seem to be promoting bank runs.

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galileoreloaded Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-18-08 09:28 AM
Response to Reply #23
25. Total debt includes public and private debt. Everything we owe.
I have a hard time posting charts, so here is a dedicated web page with the chart. http://cl1p.net/Total%20debt/

For the accounting, go here:
http://www.federalreserve.gov/releases/g19/Current/

then add to gov.t debt.
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-18-08 05:03 PM
Response to Reply #25
26. The second link is consumer credit outstanding = 2.5 trillion.
your second link is some chart someone made, i have no idea who.



us gdp 2006 = 13.1 trillion

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=us+gdp

us debt = 9 trillion

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=us+debt

us consumer credit = 2.5 trillion


TOTAL debt = 11.5 trillion
+ 1 trillion from current fiasco = 12.5 trillion

debt (public + consumer) as % of gdp = 87.7%
debt (public + fiasco debt) as a % of gdp = 76.3%


So, if i make 50K, I bought a 43.9K house.


Where do you get 360%?


As a % of GDP, debt's been higher.

It was over 76% roosevelt - truman admins.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_debt_by_U.S._presidential_terms



quit trying to scare people.


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Greyhound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-19-08 08:25 PM
Response to Original message
28. A Journal kick. n/t
:kick:

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