How do you perceive "liberalism/liberals"?

[El Pinko]

Just wondering, I have always seen liberalism as the political philosophy of the bourgeoisie - just enough social justice to keep revolution at bay, while preserving the privilege of the wealthy and bourgeoisie classes. A centrist philosophy falling square between democratic socialism on the center-left, and DLC types and moderate republicans on the center-right.

But then there are the right-wingers who infest our country who seem to equate liberalism with "leftism", even thought they are quite distinctly different. And even a great many people here seem to think of liberalism as being a "left" movement, rather than the pro-establishment movement it has always been.


How do you perceive it?

[melody]

1. It's an adjective, too

There are plenty of people who call themselves "liberals" who are not.

Fire isn't fire because we call it that ... fire is fire because it warms us and burns us. Liberals are as liberals think and do.

[An Intellectual]

2. American liberalism is just watered-down capitalism. It's still a poison, just not quite as strong.

[melody]

3. It isn't any one thing

It's a lot of things, depending upon individual interpretation.

[An Intellectual]

4. I agree. I should have said "most self-described liberals are just watered-down capitalists".

[melody]

5. That is possible. I don't have any opinion on it, but it's a sound assertion n/t

[El Pinko]

10. That's true. When I lived in San Francisco, "Progressive" meant basically "democratic socialist".

But in much of the country, people who call themselves "progressives" are just centrist democrats who want to shy away from the stigmatized word "liberal", and are unaware of the leftist connotations "progressive" has in some circles.

[Redbear]

6. My views have changed very little in the last twenty-five years

But those same views that made me a moderate in the 80s make me a liberal today.

[TahitiNut]

7. I subscribe to the liberalism as described by John Rawls in "A Theory of Justice"

I do so, not out of some self-centered, myopic "identity politics" but out of a comprehension that human relations is NOT a zero-sum game. Thus, there is no such thing as "win-lose" ... and only "win-win" and "lose-lose."

I eschew the objectification of human beings (and the commoditization of human labor) in ALL its forms, whether based on gender, race, ethnicity, religion, or sexual orientation. It is, imho, a fundamental evil, whether we do it to others or even to ourselves. I eschew trafficking in human labor in ALL its forms, from slavery to our perverted "immigration system" to the off-shoring of our means of production (and associated jobs) to the assault on organized labor.

As such, I'm not at all like many who proclaim themselves "liberals" or "progressives" merely because they identify with some 'type' or group based upon some demographic ... but who give themselves license to perpetrate the SAME evils in some mindless, self-aggrandizing melodrama of perverted politics. It's as morally reprehensible to me as the single-issue, "me-first" bigots and xenophobes on the 'right.'

On the Political Compass, I regard Gandhi as too far "north" ... but happily occupy a neighboring zone.

[canetoad]

8. Bogus poll

Back to the drawing board for you young pinko.

[El Pinko]

11. No more bogus than your simplistic non-reply.

I hate replies that basically say "this post sucks" and then are too lazy to say why.

Either have a point or STFU, is how I see it.

...And I'm not especially "young".

[canetoad]

12. Simplistic and effective

By posting polls that are only 3 or 4 variations of your own peculiar viewpoint do you really expect a meaningful response?

Seems like a pale carbon-copy of MSM tricks to me.

[El Pinko]

13. Whatever.

I don't only post polls, and they are not only about one topic.

But yeah, I have my viewpoint, which you are free to disagree with.

I "expect" those who have an opinion to share it, and those who aren't interested in the question to stay the hell away.

I don't go in and poop on polls saying "Yay, Obama is the next Kennedy. Is he going to win a.) slightly, b.) handily, or c.) decisively?"

Because the last thing I want to do is rain on that crowd's parade. I'm already apprehensive enough that the first Tuesday in November will so anyway.

My dearest wish is for the democratic party to realign itself to be a true opposition party - one with regular democrats on the right, liberals in the center, and one that actually welcomes democratic socialists and their ideals on the left. I believe that only when the party has a clear, distinct philosophy and values (rather than being just a watered-down version of the GOP) will it be truly successful. So yea, I will continue to make posts in that vein. How that is a "trick" is beyond me. I make no bones about where I am coming from and the fact that I am not a partisan democrat.

[canetoad]

17. Well jeez, what the hell do you expect?

The poll was on how we (readers) perceive liberalism, but the alternatives given were a narrow view. Rigging polls is an old and not very subtle art. If you really wanted honest answers you would have left out your own opinions and created room for people to elaborate.

This is lazy, careless polling, designed to elicit responses you foresee.

[El Pinko]

18. There is always the "Other" choice.

What other choices should I have added?

"Liberalism is the pinnacle of modern political thought"?


All I wanted to know is if DUers perceive it as left, centrist or establishment. I think the questions are appropriate to that aim.

And again, there is always "other".

[Kurt_and_Hunter]

9. Other: Being left of liberalism is not an intrinsic good

Liberal democracy is not a step along the way to any ideological end-point. Liberalism is counter-ideological.

The primary tenant of liberalism is application of rationalism to governance. There are some ideological aspects; believing that liberty is good, that government is shady by nature and that a society is composed of individuals. But though those tenants contradict aspects of some left-right ideologies they are kind of off the left-right axis.

I suppose one could say that our belief in private property as a concept is ideological, but that's not so right-wing in the big scheme of things.

And, of course, liberalism is leftist on the most traditional axis of democracy vs. monarchism.

[El Pinko]

14. Perhaps not, but having a viable left is good for a democratic society.

The fact that we have only a right and a center in this country has been disastrous for the US. It's why more people in Europe now enjoy a better standard of living with less indebtedness than do most Americans, IMO.

[Kurt_and_Hunter]

21. I agree that leftism is valuable and has a tough time here

There's no doubt that a nation where nobody thinks they're working class has a built-in right-wing bias.

There are so many axises! I'm an economic centrist (which is center-left-left in America), a civil right and liberties extremist, foreign policy realist...

[billyoc]

15. In every American community there are varying shades of political opinion.

One of the shadyest of these are the liberals.
Ten degrees to the left of center in good times,
ten degrees to the right of center if it affects them personally. --Phil Ochs, intro to "Love me, I'm a Liberal"

[El Pinko]

16. Yeah - great song.

I posted the lyrics here once, and it made many people furious.

Most of them totally did not get where it was coming from.

[billyoc]

23. I'm sure it infuriated many, but I'm not sure they didn't get it.

;)

[depakid]

19. If the party hadn't sold out its traditional values

and enabled and legitimized (if not embraced) far right policies, Democrats be in the Whitehouse, control congress and the courts- AND the country wouldn't be in a disastrous war and in the midst of an economic meltdown.

Not to mention that we'd still have a responsibly regulated media.

[Douglas Carpenter]

20. the vast majority of western people would define liberalism as a synonym for centrism

It is a peculiarity to the United States that the term "liberals" is treated as a synonym for "the left". The Left simply does not exist as a major political movement in the United Sates the way it does in western democracies.

However, the range of discussion in the United States is so far to the right of any western democracy, any terms such as liberal, conservative, left or right have very little meaning.

Even the staunchest conservatives in other western democracies would assume universal health care and a extensive welfare state and social programs, worker and environmental protections - way beyond what anyone in the United States to the right of Dennis Kucinich would ever dream of proposing. The conservatives as they exist in the United States are simply not part of the western democratic tradition.

But basically in western democracies in the normal world, there is the the pro-business conservatives, then on the other end of the spectrum there is the pro-labour left which ranges from social democrats and Democratic Socialist to Communist. Liberals are the the people in the middle between the left and conservatives (real conservatives not these nutty Americans).

[Sebastian Doyle]

22. My definition is this.....

Anyone you can think of in this country who ever had a good idea about damn near anything, odds are that person was a Liberal.

No where near as eloquent as the definition JFK used to describe himself in 1960, but every bit as true.

Seriously, what GOOD things have Conservatives invented? :shrug:

[Name removed]

24. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[TahitiNut]

25. Read "A Theory of Justice" by John Rawls and disabuse yourself of the notion ...

... that the ignorance of so many has anything to do with the meaning of the term 'liberal.'

[TahitiNut]

26. A conservative finds it easier to forgive themselves than forgive others ...

... while a liberal finds it easier to forgive others than to forgive themselves. :evilgrin: