It is hard to be a Southerner.

[renie408]

I love my state. I love where I live and I honestly don't think I would want to live anywhere else. We went to the football game last night and everybody knows everybody. I go to the gas station and can have a conversation with the clerk, I chat with my checkout people at the grocery store, we wave at people on the road. There is a little diner up the road called Didee's. We go up there for Sunday morning breakfast and every once in awhile during the week. It is homey and friendly and so COUNTRY. I was born in Charleston, SC, grew up in Atlanta and now live in upstate SC. My mother raised me to be proud of being a southerner. She was old school Charleston, Camellia Ball, DAR..the whole nine yards.

There is so much GOOD here. There is a sense of culture and a different rhythm to life in the South. It is dying fast with the influx of economic immigrants, but it is still here if you look for it. There is more here than religion, ignorance and racism. And I REALLY get sick of people from other regions pretending that the South has the monopoly on those problems.

I think I have a pretty clear picture of the south and its issues. I am an atheist liberal Democrat living in South Carolina. I have had to sit through someone trying to 'save' me way more than once. I am also not blinded to the problems here. But having visited northern California, New York, Florida (Florida isn't really counted as a southern state, just ask any southerner. I am not sure what Florida is.) and Ohio for extended periods of time, I can assure you that there are dumb rednecks EVERYWHERE. There is racism EVERYWHERE. Ignorance is EVERYWHERE. There are racist, ignorant, religious nuts in Massachusetts. A lot of them, I imagine. And I bet a lot of them vote Dem, too.

If you go somewhere trying to find things to look down on, you will. If you go looking for positive stuff, you will find it. Please don't drive down an interstate in the South and think that from that experience you know something about this area. Don't visit Disneyland and think that represents any reality ANYWHERE.

Yes, there are problems here. But there are problems everywhere.

[glowing]

1. You are right about Florida.. Florida is its own country compared to the rest

of the USA... AND southerners get a bad rap because they had the slaves and they had all the civil rights shit and so people in other regions are ignorant and biased... But yes, I've heard more racial shit from people up north than I have in the south.

[taterguy]

2. Nice post Van Zandt

[renie408]

4. Who is Van Zandt? n/t

[taterguy]

5. Ronnie . . .

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RHsDa9_HSlA

[snake in the grass]

74. Maybe a reference to Lynyrd Skynyrd?

I am originally from Jacksonville, Florida and all my life growing up I dreamt of leaving that place. Yes, there are pleasant things in the South. The tempo is somewhat slower, the people greet you on the street (even the ones who don't know you), BBQ is absolutely fantastic there, and so is nature (I love the Everglades). You are right that rednecks can be found everywhere. Let us not forget that that piece of shit George Felix Allen of Macaca fame is originally from California and Alaska sounds like Dixie to me with their dreams of secession. That's one of the things that annoyed me so much in Florida; this 'the South will rise again' crap. However, you have a church on every corner in the South and that is pretty unsightly. In some places it seems they have more churches than actual people and in these churches the hatred festers. The same sweet old man who greets you on the street, maybe even tips his hat, is the one in his church on Sunday frothing at the mouth at the 'liberal disease'. I also hate the proselytizing in the South. Three days a week some walking anus knocks on your door and tries to sell you some reservations in heaven. These things I do not miss at all and when I read that Florida is pushing for intelligent design or that some mayor has put up signs in the community banning Satan from entering, I recognize that the merchants of ignorance have a stronger grip on the people there than elsewhere and I am thankful that I don't live there anymore.

Yes, the South would be perfect if the hominids, who live there, would go the way of the Roanoke Colony.

[gaspee]

114. Jacksonville

I lived there for a few years - my sister and her kids still live there.

I loathed it. I loathed the people, the religion on every corner and the landscape. Box stores and fast food on every corner. Suburban sprawl everywhere you look.

I lived in different parts of Jacksonville over three years and the only time I liked my neighbors was when I lived in Arlington.

I would never, ever, ever live in the south again.

The OP said Florida isn't the south, but I really think Northern Florida is the South.

[snake in the grass]

119. North Florida is South Georgia.

I miss my family (all of which stayed in J-ville) but I will never miss that place. For me Dixie is the sewer of the U.S. where all the shit gets flushed. I know some people will not agree and my heart truly goes out to progressives living there (I know you don't have it easy) but I have never seen anything redeemable in the South. Well, ok, BBQ is still great there and Key West is a world of its own.

[frogcycle]

3. you got that right!

There are dumb rednecks everywhere.

We just got a reputation with the yankees because we talk slow.

As to racism...

It's certainly a mixed bag, but there sure were a bunch of riots and protests in northern cities in the 60's. I am reading a nonfiction book set in Tucson - just a few minutes ago read a passage that said at the U of Arizona in the 60's there were signs on rental property near the campus that said "colored need not apply."

So don't tell me the South has a monopoly on dumb rednecks!

ps: we are now learning that the North - far north - has a ton of them!

[AlinPA]

6. Yes - we also have ignorance and racism here in PA. We also have a lot of

the holier-than-thou religious type.

[fencesitter]

76. Oh absolutley here in PA..

I was driving in Delaware county yesterday on my way to Chester. Passing throught the mostly white, working class older towns that border Chester, the McCain signs were dominant and everywhere. Crossing into Chester which is mostly black, the signs are all Obama. I know a lot of people who came from these suburbs of Chester and the racism there is just an accepted given. Besides the fact that these burbs are filled with one-time union workers, whose economic needs benefit directly from Dem policies, they're heavily repub. Even if their life depended on it, they would never vote for a black guy. Chester was once a prosperous city full of industry and jobs. After everything shut down, the city fell into severe poverty and all the white people who could, fled. The people who fled don't blame the city's decline on the industry that left, they blame it on the poor black population. I do believe this view of the world is mostly shared by the over 65 crowd. Younger citizens are much less racist than their parents.

[AlinPA]

103. I have observed that younger citizens are much less racist than their parents as you stated.

In W. PA I could never figure it out, that people vote against their interests. The main reasons I have seen are "patriotism" and guns. Some religion/intolerance toward gays exists but now with Obama, we can add racism to it.

[mwb970]

7. The problem isn't the south, it's America.

It is heartbreaking to have watched this country go down the drain during my lifetime. We sure are a long way from the "greatest generation" that gave us all those great WW II movies.

Ignorance, prejudice, superstition, and more ignorance. Welcome to America. Not!

[Kindigger]

8. I don't like sweet tea.

x(

Holler toward Summerville, and tell my kid to fill out her voter registration card. I don't want to drive all the way down there. :)

[renie408]

9. What's not to like?? And I have been making calls, but not in Summerville.

I have a lot of friends in Summerville, though, so I can give one of them a shout out for you. Actually, they are in Goose Creek, but close enough.

[dgibby]

79. I'm in Summerville

Want me to go have a "come to Jeebus meeting with her?:hi:

[npk]

152. I hate sweet tea also

And I was born and raised in the south. People call me a communist for refusing to dink sweet tea. Oh well.

[rebel with a cause]

163. Have a reaction to coffee and tea .

want to talk about being a traitor to your people. Oh, I married a man from the Caribbean and also have a reaction to dark chocolate and pineapples. Divorced him but still can't eat dark chocolate or pineapples.

[fishnfla]

10. Florida is full of assholes from somewhere else

maybe I am one too, but a pissed off one. yesterday somefucking ****head almost killed me on Narcoosssee Road, passing on a bend and I am head on with a Green Jeep. We both ended up in the ditch. Late for her plane the bitch said. On her way home for a class reunion, aint worth my life bitch. Irony of ironies, Obama Biden 08 sticker on her bumper. Stupid fucking bitch

[renie408]

16. I guess Dems can be bad drivers, too. Glad you are Ok. n/t

[DemoTex]

11. As right-wing and Bo-Jo fundy as the upstate is (I'm in Greenville), I'll say this ..

I've only seen two McCain bumper stickers so far. One of those was on a neighbor's Tahoe, and it's gone now. I guess he took it off. In the Augusta Grill's parking lot last night I saw four Obama stickers (counting mine) and zero McCain stickers. Nor did I see a single hold-over Bu$h/Cheney sticker. And I was deliberately looking!

I'm under no illusion that upstate SC will go blue this year. But the right-wing here seems to be very, very subdued. Their shrill cockiness from the past seems to have somewhat abated.

[Democrat 4 Ever]

13. My daughter lives in Laurens, SC and her GOP on the brain

husband is a huge Obama fan. Going to vote Democratic for the first time in his life. Now his family....that's another story. They all live in Laurens, too, and are positive that Obama is Muslim terrorist elite unpatriotic man who is too educated and smart for his own good. They are scared of him. Of course, I've got family members here in Kentucky who are spewing the same nonsense. sigh....

[renie408]

17. Ok, I admitted that there was ignorance and racism here....

I just said we didn't have a monopoly on those things.

I hear phrases that I have started to figure out are code for "I can't vote for a black guy." But I have heard those online from people who are WAY not from the South, too.

[Fire1]

55. Dem 4 Ever...............you're in my neck of the woods............

born and raised. Moved north some years ago but still have the ole homestead there. Bible thumpers, hicks and red necks, God love 'em. Nevertheless, the original OP is more accurate than not, but to those who have removed the blinders, it is no longer 'racism' per se. It's Fascism and it is indeed, national.

[Democrat 4 Ever]

111. Actually I'm in Kentucky - born here and haven't moved far since.

My middle daughter had the audacity to up and move to South Carolina with her husband. I can forgive her for that but did she have to take the grandkids? It is more difficult to "indoctrinate" them when they live eight hours away. That hasn't stopped me, of course, and the oldest one runs her SC grandmother c-r-a-z-y with liberal "nonsense!"

[renie408]

15. My husband and I have noticed the same thing. Few McCain stickers

and signs, lots of Obama stickers and signs.

We are going to the rally in Charlotte tomorrow and taking the kids. We are all really excited!

[MsTryska]

154. I'm seeign the same thing here in my atlanta suburbs...

i keep my eyes peeled as i drive around looking for evidence....i haven't seen many stickers either way, but the obama stickers outnumber the mccain stickers. And neither are on the level of W stickers from the last time around. those were EVERYWHERE. i would definitely agree - way more subdued.

[Blarch]

12. Lets be honest now.

Your state contains more racists than most states. I have been there a few times. Lets not spin the truth.

[renie408]

20. "Most"? Ya sure about that? Look at an electoral map, my friend.

"Most" states vote the way mine does. And it is a shame. Luckily, states with the largest populations vote the other way.

I am not exonerating the racism in South Carolina at all. But I can also say very honestly that the racism in my CHILDREN'S generation is much, much less. We ARE getting there. Slowly, but we are getting there. And I hear racist comments rarely enough these days that when I do, it startles me. But, yeah, there is racism here. My point is that there is racism EVERYWHERE. I will cite the fact that this election is so close as anecdotal evidence.

[johnaries]

169. Better yet, look at county by county maps.

Also look at the popular vote and polls. Very few southern states, if any, have a difference in the double digits.

[NeedleCast]

32. South Carolina wouldn't even crack my top three in states with open racism

And none of my top three are in the south.

[bvar22]

92. Sarah Palin's home state would be #1,

Idaho = #2

Wyoming & Utah tied for 3rd.

The above rankings from my own personal experience, travels, and public tolerance for White Separist/Supremacy groups.

[Blarch]

137. Even if SC was in your top ten....

it would still contain more racists than most states.

Ya see, I say ya see... it's simple math my son...

[bvar22]

88. Which state holds the record....

...for the most lynchings in a 24 hour period?
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
That would be New York.

[ulysses]

94. you forgot the all caps. statements of opinion presented as facts

are only true if they're stated in all caps.

[cherokeeprogressive]

102. Honesty demands that you back up your claim with some kind of documented evidence. n/t

[Two Americas]

132. well...

The poster has "been there a few times."

[Two Americas]

129. such ignorance

The South is more rural than the North. Compare rural districts to rural districts and urban districts to urban districts and your observation falls apart.

White rural areas, North and South, are very similar. If you could move Chicago to Mississippi, Mississippi would suddenly become a progressive blue state. Move Chicago out of Illinois, and Illinois would suddenly becone a conservative red state.

[npk]

153. A fucking idiot

One born every minute. Thankfully one dies every minute to even things out.

[lynnertic]

14. When I travel back east (to the South) I notice that people are outwardly hostile

and untrusting towards each other. To strangers, not to friends or family. By the time I get on my airplane home, I'm ready to cry with relief.

I think it's the humidity that does it to you all.

[sam sarrha]

19. i'm from the pacific northwest, i nearly cry everyday on the way to work, with the expectation of

what i have to go thru to get my job done... NC is better than western rural TN,

[NashVegas]

49. I'm From the Northeast, And Relax With Relief Every Year When I Get on the Plane From ALB to BNA

When I read the letters to the editor in my newspaper, I see the streak of mean that comes out when certain topics are brought up.

In spite of it, I'd never want to go back and live among the uptight stoics of the Northeast.

[gaspee]

118. I'm the exact opposite

I'm from New England, born and raised. Lived in the south (Jax Fl, which is the south - Northern Florida is very different than the rest of Florida) and would never, in a million years, move back to the south.

I hate the people, the religiosity, the bigotry and discrimination against non-christians, the racism, the big box stores on every corner...

Gah - give me the stoic, mind your own damned business New Englanders (who wouldn't dare to comment on your religion) over the south any day of the week.

Maybe it depends on your own personality where you feel more comfortable.

Of course, the ten years I spent in San Francisco were the best ten years of my life. Too bad I can't afford it any more and I have to take care of my elderly parents now.

[renie408]

23. I am sorry you have had that experience. I am sure that in your area. people

universally friendly to all. Naturally, the fact that you are FROM there does not influence your perception of your experience at all.

Having traveled all over and taken an apparently pronounced accent with me wherever I go, I can tell you that rudeness towards outsiders isn't regional.

[mnhtnbb]

48. Are you kiddin'? Just put on a lil' southern accent and you'll be treated with

all the hospitality afforded the natives.

See, "it's the humidity that does it to y'all" would get a laugh instead of a snicker.

[Midwestern Democrat]

71. That hasn't been my experience at all. IMO, Southerners are - as a

whole - the friendliest people in the country.

[Mariana]

86. Sure,

until they find out, say, that you're not a Christian. Then they shun you and tell their kids not to play with your kids.

This was my experience in three southern states.

[David Zephyr]

113. Welcome to the DU. And I agree with you, Mariana.

Sorry your kids had to experience that. :hi:

[gaspee]

120. Exactly

I got so freaking SICK AND TIRED of people trying to "save" me at work. I would never, ever, ever live in the south again. Ever.

It got to the point where I started laughing at them and saying between chuckles, you really believe that shit?!?! whenever people tried to foist their religion on me. Their reaction was pretty funny.

[Froward69]

18. In my travels I have found myself

"Down south" three times. two of those trips had the same occurrence... after dinner drinking beer and some "chewing the fat" the comfort level rises to where everyone feels open to discuss anything. then the inevitable comes out race, region or politics. I cannot sit still and agree with positions i strongly disagree with. as for me I am 1/4 black. I look whiter than most "whites" complete with shades of red hair and all. any who the racism seems to be inherent. almost expected everywhere in the south. For people whom never met a person of color. like i said i have been there three times in my life and two of those three times I was dis invited to stay I had to go to the nearest motel or hotel. once the manager of the hotel actually said "at least your not black".
Anger is an understatement as to how I felt.

needless to say I began to long for sweet home Colorado.

as here and all other western states. civil War veterans are buried side by side. regardless if they were Yankees or Rebels, Black or white.
as harboring resentment over generations is a serious flaw in southern thinking.

[renie408]

28. Ok, I was in Ohio in May for a week on business...

and I heard the word 'nigger' said out loud in public. I haven't heard that in forever. The woman behind me in the drug store said something to her companion loud enough for me to hear about 'the nigger' that lived next to her.

I also had to spend a week in northern California a while back. HOLY SHIT!! Some of the people there could teach the rednecks in the South a thing or two about ignorant racism!! But

I won't argue with you that racism exists here. It does. My point is that it exists every where. Maybe not where you are from. But most other places. I didn't walk out of Ohio or northern California thinking, "oh my god, what a racist place that is!!" I walked away knowing the reality that stupid happens everywhere.

[NeedleCast]

54. Ohio is EASILY where I've had my worst experiences regarding racism

Renie you are absolutely right, it's everywhere. People just choose not to see it in their regions or cities. I was in Ohio in 2005 and 2007, both time with black friends and heard the word n*gg*r thrown around more than anywhere I've ever been...and in openly hostile ways. "Are those your n*gg*rs?" "You better control your n*gg*rs."

People who think their regions are immune to it are just living with blinders on.

[Jamastiene]

123. "stupid happens everywhere"

Yup, I cannot think of a truer statement at the moment.

[bvar22]

99. So, how is life on the reservations in Colorado?

Racism is not exclusively a Black or White thing.

[Froward69]

170. aside from school yard bigotry

the closest thing I have encountered here was a refrigerator repairman. who just went on and on about Ni66er this and that. I agreed and let him "fix me up". when he left I berated him to his boss.

[MsTryska]

155. people int he South who've never met a person of color?

where was this?


I moved to the South from Upstate New York, and it's been my experience that even the most hillbilliest Southerner is far more comfortable with black people then their northern counterparts. Primarily because blacks and whites do live in proximity to each other. Up north it's very often a black urban core and out in the country it's lily white.

In the rural south, people intermingle much more. But then again the culture sort of set that up. Poor Whites and Poor Blacks oftened worked the same land.

not to say the racism isn't there still, but it has a different flavor.

[OnionPatch]

21. We have plenty of racist yahoos here in California.

My sister and her husband live in Spartanburg, SC. Both are avid Obama fans and just today sent me pictures of the Obama yard signs they put out. The local headquarters were out, so they spent half the day making their own, that's how badly they wanted a yard sign. There are assholes everywhere....and there are also really good people.

[lame54]

22. there are dumb rednecks EVERYWHERE. There is racism EVERYWHERE. Ignorance is EVERYWHERE...

But Republican voters tend to gather in the south

[renie408]

24. Ok...yeah...you got me on that one. n/t

[MsTryska]

156. And in the flyover states....

down here the republicanism is all about that old-time religion and pro-life issues.

[cali]

25. Yet another post about how the South is just sooo maligned

there are good things and bad things about most places in this country. Oh, and the good things you mentioned are hardly consigned solely to the South.

[Orrex]

29. For real

The town where I live, here in northwestern PA, features all of those same positives.

[renie408]

36. I refuse to believe that. I refuse to believe there are good people any where

above the Mason-Dixon Line. I think my OP clearly stated that the only place there were good people were in the south and that is a point to which I stick. :eyes:

[Orrex]

43. Is that snark I smell? That smells like snark.

Your OP made it seem as though the principal reason that you can't bring yourself to leave your haven of Southern Hospitality was your concern that the good elements of your quaint little burg don't exist elsewhere.

The purpose of my reply was to point out that there's a lot of good dispersed throughout the country, so there's no need to pigeonhole oneself in a particular place, especially if that place has many characteristics that are objectionable to you.

[renie408]

51. It just might be snark...

And kudos on the effort to out-snark me. I guess you showed me, huh??

I like the weather. I like the trees and the rolling hills and the lakes, rivers and streams. I like picking peaches off a tree in my backyard. I like being able to drive ten minutes to a place to trail ride my horses for hours. I like the lack of crime. I like the gas prices and the fact that economically, we aren't taking quite the same hit a lot of other places are. To reiterate, my point is that the things that I and many others find objectionable are universal. There isn't ANYWHERE that doesn't have these elements.

[renie408]

35. Gosh...do you think that might be the POINT of my post??

Could it be that I am saying that the South isn't really different from a lot of the rest of the country?? I think it could....

[Stuckinthebush]

26. An atheist in Fort Mill?

That has to be tough.

I know Fort Mill, Lancaster, Indian Land, and Rock Hill well. I have family and friends there. The good news is that Charlotte isn't far away and it is becoming more and more, shall we say, diluted. This brings tolerance.

There are very good people all over the south, and many of these people are very tolerant and open. I'm from Alabama and know that there are pockets of sanity all over here. I think that the south has had to openly discuss their prejudices for many years now and this has helped breed tolerance.

When I want to stay in the South and go somewhere blue, I make a trip to Asheville, NC. Talk about an eclectic place in the South!

[renie408]

33. Actually, an atheist in INDIAN LAND. The religious thing here is actually

way harder than the racism. People will flat out treat you like you have a disease if they figure out that you do not believe that 'Christ died on a cross for your sins' (I get that a lot).

Ok, this story is probably NOT going to work out the way I want it to, but I am going to tell it anyway....A friend of my son's was at the house the other day and my son called her 'Jigaboo'. Given that she is black, my husband and I FREAKED out. I mean, I wigged totally out. I started screaming at him and apologizing to her, which freaked HER and the other kids here out. I explained to them that 'jigaboo' is a racist epithet. Then they explained to me that it is the nickname her MOTHER calls her. None of them had any idea that it wasn't similar to 'Doodlebug', which is our daughter's nickname. They were all looking at my husband and me like we were aliens. They simply had no clue. I wasn't sure what to think. I asked my son later about her family and he said her mother was a lot younger than I am, so maybe she didn't know that it was a racial slur, either. I ended up with telling him to NEVER use that word in front of anybody else.

I watch my kids going to a small, semi-rural school in the south and they have both had black 'love' interests, they both have black best friends and NONE of the kids seem to notice. It is heartening to me to see things changing. I KNOW it is slow going and shouldn't be. But it is changing.

[MadAnne]

75. Hi Neighbor, I'm up the mountain from you.

The other day one of the people I hike with told an Obama joke that included Sambo. This was a racist from Boston, yeah that one up north. Anyway I was telling my daughter about it and she asked who Sambo is? Ain't it great?

[Jamastiene]

124. Asheville RAWKS!!!

I wish I could afford to live there. :)

[Stuckinthebush]

27. An atheist in Fort Mill?

That has to be tough.

I know Fort Mill, Lancaster, Indian Land, and Rock Hill well. I have family and friends there. The good news is that Charlotte isn't far away and it is becoming more and more, shall we say, diluted. This brings tolerance.

There are very good people all over the south, and many of these people are very tolerant and open. I'm from Alabama and know that there are pockets of sanity all over here. I think that the south has had to openly discuss their prejudices for many years now and this has helped breed tolerance.

When I want to stay in the South and go somewhere blue, I make a trip to Asheville, NC. Talk about an eclectic place in the South!

[Liberal Dose]

30. Hello Neighbor!

Hubby and I just got here last week (job relocation). After 20 years in New England (hubby grew up there), 4 years in Southern FL (you're right; not really the south) and a year in Philadelphia it's time to just stay awhile.
We have fallen in LOVE with this area and know we'll be very happy here.
:hi:

Edited to add: I didn't even know you were in Fort Mill until I spotted another post!

[renie408]

34. We love this area. No matter where I go, it is home.

I am glad you are enjoying the area. There is a lot here to love, including a lot of the people. Are you in Fort Mill, too? We are actually in Indian Land, which is a wide space in the road a little east of Fort Mill. It is so WEIRD to run into people on the DU that know where we are!

[Liberal Dose]

40. We're in corporate housing right now down in Rock Hill.

Right now we're looking around for a house to rent and waiting for our house to sell back in PA. Indian Land is close to where we work :D
My husband says he wants to try Didee's for breakfast and do they have good hash browns lol.

[renie408]

42. It is good, plain food. Breakfast is better than dinner or lunch, except for the veggies.

The meats are not that great, but the veggies for lunch and dinner are usually very good. Breakfast is a lot of good, greasy food. It is just a good, simple place to take our family on Sunday mornings.

[Liberal Dose]

61. We're going to the rally in Charlotte tomorrow too! nt

[grace0418]

31. It must be hard, and I try not to stereotype about anything. But I guess I'm just

used to big city life and don't really WANT people in my business. I have plenty of friends, I say hello to my neighbors, but that's where it ends. Not that I don't often chat with a particularly nice waitperson or store clerk, but I generally don't want to make small talk with everyone I see everywhere I go. I guess it's just that, in my experience, some people are making small talk to be friendly but many seem to be trying to pigeon-hole or judge you. In Chicago (my home town), Seattle, New York, San Francisco and other big cities I've visited, I have NEVER ONCE been asked "are you a Christian?" by someone I've just met. But I've sure been asked that more times than I care to count when I visit the South.

I remember one trip I was on with my husband. We were in Georgia, and we were tired from being out all day so we decided to get some pizza to bring back to the hotel. We ordered from the local Pizza Hut and he waited in the parking lot while I went inside to pay. Now I'm a tad bit arty-looking but by no means do I look really funky. No ink, no piercings, my hair is its original color, in fact I think I look pretty boring. Well, I walked into that Pizza Hut and it was like a movie. People stopped talking to turn and stare at me. I walked up to the counter and all the employees stared while I paid. Finally, one of them said (in not the warmest tone) "You ain't from around here are you?" to which I replied cheerily "No, I'm from Chicago." Then he said "I could tell by your glasses." (which are not very odd, by the way). I thanked them and walked out of the store while everyone stared silently at me. No "thank you" no "good-bye" just staring. The entire restaurant. All I could think as I walked to the car was that I was really glad my (non-white) husband didn't go in there with me. I've been treated rudely and ignored in plenty of stores and restaurants in Chicago, NYC, and elsewhere, but I've never encountered that kind of bizarre hostility towards strangers anywhere else.

I do agree with you that racism and ignorance exists everywhere, and that there are problems everywhere. It just takes on different flavors in different places, it seems. Just like all the good qualities that make different regions great and unique.

[renie408]

41. Here's the thing...It isn't like we are isolated here.

We have TV's. We have radios and ipods and the internet. At the ballgame last night, if you had run a strong magnet over the stadium, you could have picked up half the teenagers in the stands due to their piercings. We have our fair share of emo kids with coal black hair and grungy t-shirts and angst ridden expressions.

Maybe I am lucky to live in a pocket which is close enough to a large city (Charlotte) to be urban, but small enough to feel rural.

Oh, and the religion thing IS pretty bad here. They are building a gigunda mega church up the road from us called The City of Light. I am not a Christian, but can't think that is what Jesus had in mind.

[DailyGrind51]

37. Living in Chicago is no prize, either!

We have the highest sales tax in the nation, with close to the highest price for gasoline. A city government that grants contracts to mob-connected firms, public transit and school systems out of money, a demoralized police department, and a mayor using our time and money to go jetting around the world for a 2016 Olympics' bid, we can't afford. The greatest mayor in recent history was Harold Washington, who was hounded to death by a block of entrenched white council-members (aka the "Evil Cabal"), lead by a mob lawyer, currently under federal indictment.

[NC_Nurse]

38. I'm a Southerner. I agree with you on some things - like racism. We have no

corner on that market. OTOH, I think that we DO have a corner on the majority of the
religious whack job headcount. As Carlin once said, "Too many churches to be consistent
with good mental health."

I think that's the main reason for so many red states here - crazy fundies.

[renie408]

45. I would agree that religion is a problem here. Not that I think religion is a problem

in general, but here it is almost militant. Way worse than the racism these days.

[wildbilln864]

39. well said my fellow S. Carolinian! nt

[RainDog]

44. I'm also from the south

From Nashville, TN. Lived in Miami, FL (and, yeah, southerners do not view FL as the south - but it is), Houston, TX, been to all the southern states, have family members with places in the N.C. mtns, too. Now live in the midwest.

And the atmosphere in the south is different. Religion is intrusive in a way I have never seen it where I live now. Maybe the problems do extend across America, but the current Republican party has been able to win elections over the last thirty years because of the white, racist southern vote. It is a large enough block to change the course of elections.

I cannot comment about everywhere else - yes there are racists and jerks everywhere. Where I live now, I've heard some of the most insane crap about "socialist Canada" and militia in my life... with the exception of some of the 3rd generation Cuban immigrants who still train to have another Bay of Pigs.

I've never seen another part of the country that celebrates ignorance as the south does. I've never seen another part of the country that is so knee-jerk anti-intellectual, tho I haven't lived everywhere else, so that could just be my perspective. I told my (now ex) husband that I would never want to live in the south and raise kids - and we didn't. This wasn't a great big deal for him because he's from northern Europe and when he came to the U.S. for grad school (at Vandy) he was astonished at the number of people there who refuse to accept basic tenets of modern science.

When he had people come to the U.S. to visit, they would tape televangelists' tv shows to play for people back in Europe because NO ONE would believe them if they simply tried to tell them about the bullshit that preachers spout here - and, no, not all of them are southern, but if your church's headquarters are in the south, it's kind of hard to claim the south does not have undue influence in fundie religious culture.

other parts of the country, like Colo. Springs, have become nests of fundie reactionaries, no doubt.

My experience of the south showed me that if I did not live in a college town or in the midst of a university area I was one miserable person there. Sorry, we all have our opinions. I hate the south.

[renie408]

47. That's how it rolls. I guess my personal experience has been different. n/t

[NashVegas]

50. Self-delete

It wasn't bad, just not relevant.

[mnhtnbb]

52. This native New Yorker swore she could never live in the south, but

I absolutely LOVE Chapel Hill, NC. Of course, it's a progressive, university town--but it wasn't so long
ago (the 60's) that public schools were segregated here.

On the other hand, I've also lived in NJ, CA, MO and NE. I swore when we left Nebraska (Lincoln--another university town) that NE should change its state motto to "Ignorant and proud of it."

The south doesn't have a monopoly on ignorance, racism, and fundie religious freaks. University
towns aren't always bastions of liberal thought. The key is finding a place where you feel at home, and
people shouldn't write off the south anymore than they should write off any other part of the country.

[dgibby]

87. I would argue it the other way around, that

it's the fundie religious culture that has undue influence in the South.:)

[Kingofalldems]

46. One problem: People still fighting the Civil War

When will that be over down there?

[mnhtnbb]

53. It's the War Between the States, kingofalldems, please.

:sarcasm:

[renie408]

60. You ARE a transplant. It is the War of Northern Aggression...n/t

[mnhtnbb]

65. No. I was at a family reunion in Gainesville, GA several weeks ago.

(Hubby's family is from Atlanta). The sister of hubby's brother-in-law, proud member of the Daughters of the Confederacy, reminded someone at the table that it is called "The War Between the States."

[renie408]

70. Ok, I have to say, those DOC chicks are batshit nuts. Don't hold that against

the rest of us.

[mnhtnbb]

73. You can imagine how hubby and I have to hold our tongues when we get together

with his family. It's really amazing. They're all big Repub supporters, and yet they would all
do anything to help family--regardless of politics. It's just that their empathy doesn't extend beyond
family.

[JVS]

141. See, it's phrases like "War of Northern Aggression" that make me think we should have let Sherman...

spend the remainder of the 1860's and the entire 1870's burning down every structure in the South.


God bless Bill Sherman, a man with a mission to cleanse our land!

[HereSince1628]

83. I thought it was "That Unpleasantness" foisted on them by the North

It's 150 years and I still can't keep up.

[dgibby]

85. Or

"the late unpleasantness" or the "war of northern aggression":rofl: I'm a 62yr old white Virginian living in Summerville, SC. I grew up and went to school during segregation, joined the Navy to "see the world", and with the exception of 2 duty stations, spent my entire career moving up and down the eastern seaboard (below the Mason-Dixon line). I lived in northern Fla (which is southern-the southern part of the state is northern due to the massive influx of snowbirds who settled there), had duty stations in Va, NC, and SC. Racism and bigotry are where you find them. My father was from Va., my mother grew up in Wva, Ohio, Pa. My mother used to tell me the difference between the North and South was that the South loved the individual black person, but hated the race, and it was just the opposite in the North. Maybe she was right, maybe not. I do know that I have many friends from all over the country, and some of the nastiness racial comments I've ever heard have come from people not from the South. In fact, I just lost one of those friends (from Pa) because of a racist diatribe she e-mailed me. Having said that, I guess I ascribe to the old ditty-I'm Southern born and Southern bred, and when I die, I'll be Southern dead!:hi:

[Jamastiene]

128. It's the War of Northern Aggression, mnhtnbb, please.

:sarcasm:

:rofl:

[depakid]

134. Plenty of Southerners still believe and say that with a straight face

One of the many, many jawdropping things that you'll hear people say in that region. Even otherwise otherwise educated people will shock you, particularly after a couple of beers or a couple glasses of wine.

Compared with the West Coast it might as well be another nation entirely. Indeed, in terms of attitudes, beliefs and values,my experience is that most West Coasters have much more in common with Canadians or Australians than with most Southerners or people from the lower Midwest.

[Jamastiene]

136. I know. They really do.

Down here, we call that bunch unevolved. Things are changing slowly though...ever so slowly.

[NeedleCast]

57. About the same time it ends in Ohio, PA, NY

Think they're not still fighting it in the north?

[Kingofalldems]

62. Ah, no. I grew up in the north and it was rarely

mentioned. I understand the schools in the South teach a revised verson of the events between 1861-1865.

[renie408]

64. I am sorry, could you clarify 'revised version'?

I am not sure what you are talking about. We learned that the South, due to economic factors and a basically Fuck You attitude, did not want to told by the federal government to abolish slavery. It was a combination of state's rights and a 'I need slaves to pick my cotton' thing. Lincoln was elected on an abolitionist platform. Southerners took Lincoln's election as a sign that the high life might be in danger and said, "We're out." The north said, "Not so fast". Bluster...bluster...fight...fight...war....ickiness...Sherman...We surrender. THIS is where it gets sticky for Southerners, IF it gets sticky. In their efforts to force the South down and keep it down, the North and the federal government did it's best to totally demoralize the south. Think carpetbaggers.

[enlightenment]

130. Lincoln was elected on an abolitionist platform?

Well, then, they are teaching a revised version . . .

;)

[RainDog]

146. this is part of the big lie

about "carpetbaggers" and other such bullshit.

I agree with others here that Sherman should have destroyed the south. Should have burned down every plantation and should have shot every plantation owner. Every single one of them. Every single member of the legislature from the south should have been tried and shot for treason.

Because the reality is that shortly after the civil war, southern plantation owners were back to doing the same thing - the republicans did not remove and shoot the previous power brokers and this was a major mistake because, as soon as the republicans left, Jim Crow laws were passed that discriminated against blacks -the Ku Klux Klan founded in 1866 to keep blacks from voting. Blacks were arrested on trumped up charges and put on chain gangs... black males faced the same issue of repression and forced/unpaid labor.

Southern politicians were back to doing the same things. The truth is the south created "black code" laws that republicans declared were unconstitutional, but the southerners did them anyway.

---

The Black Codes

White elitist regimes in the southern states did everything in their power to prevent blacks from gaining too much power. After Republicans in Congress passed the Civil Rights Act of 1866, every southern legislature passed laws to exert more control on African Americans. These Black Codes ranged in severity and outlawed everything from interracial marriage to loitering in public areas.

Southern whites passed these laws partly because they feared a free black population, especially in states where blacks outnumbered whites. Many also worried that freed slaves would terrorize their masters, rape white women, and ruin the economy. Most planter elites passed the codes simply to ensure that they would have a stable and reliable work force.

Black Codes often dictated that former slaves sign labor contracts for meager wages. Although Congress forced state legislatures to repeal the codes once the radicals took control of Reconstruction, whites still managed to subtly enforce them for years after Reconstruction had ended. Via some encyclopedia -encarta, I think -

Black Codes differed from state to state but were all similar in the following ways:

All blacks had to sign labor contracts.
Blacks could not own land.
Individuals accused of vagrancy who were unable to pay fines could be sentenced to hard labor on chain gangs.
States could force orphaned children into apprenticeships that resembled slavery.
Whites could physically abuse blacks without fear of punishment.

--

And, as others have noted here... look at the people those in the south (and, yes, lower midwest) send to the legislature. The problem with the south is religious fundamentalism, but religious fundamentalism is so closely tied to racism that it's hard to pry them apart.

The mega churches in the south came about after the civil rights movement and desegregation. White middle-class families couldn't afford expensive private schools. Church schools were their way to re-segregate. I know this because I lived through it. As a child I heard religious people justify racism by claiming blacks were from the "tribe of Dan," a lost tribe that god did not love.

And these church schools are the reason the south has a disproportionate no. of citizens who do not understand that evolutionary theory is as much of a fact as the theory of gravity, and who remain attached to churches that, imo, Jesus wouldn't recognize as his own... Jesus didn't come to establish a middle-class "country club" in churches.

And as others have noted here, the south does not have any special hold on friendliness and helpfulness among neighbors or strangers, for that matter. Two rednecks in Nashville watched me, a woman, try to move my car when an area was flooding where I had taken my car to be repaired. I asked for help and they told me they would if I would pay them. That good ole boy southern hospitality. Some of the friendliest and nicest people I ever dealt with were from northern Europe, as nice as any I've ever met in the south. They value family life. They actually do provide health care to the poor, and don't blame people when they are the unfortunate victims of some odd fate.

I really get tired of the south claiming it's somehow sooo much nicer. They're not. The truth is that the south is more responsible than any other part of the nation for the crap that blacks have had to deal with in this nation and they do not have enough grace to be ashamed.

[NeedleCast]

67. You understand incorrectly

There is no revisionist history of the civil war taught in the south, unless it's by a few zelatous teachers.

I spent plenty of time in the north and there are plenty of people in the rural areas of the northern states who carry on about the civil war as if it had just ended last week. Take your blinders off. It's everywhere.

Hell, last time I was in Ohio I saw a confederate flag bumper sticker on a car. Talk about revisionist!

[dgibby]

91. Sort of like the version of US history

taught all over the country, you know, the one that doesn't mention ethnic cleansing/geoncide of the First Peoples, political interference/overthrow of other governments, real reason for pre-emptive war in Iraq, etc. Check out Howard Zinn or Carolyn Baker if you're interested in the REAL history of this country. Talk about an education!

[renie408]

58. When it is over up there.

I have lived in somewhere in the southeast MY WHOLE LIFE. And I SWEAR to you that the only people who ever mention the Civil War like it is still going on DON'T LIVE HERE.

The Civil War thing also might be generational. My mother probably thinks about it more than I do (which, since I don't think about it at all, might make sense) and my kids find the whole concept alien. The Civil War is so removed for them that it is a chapter in American History that doesn't feel like it has any real relationship to them. My mother's family was devastated in the Civil War even though they were abolitionists (let's not talk about my father's family....). My mother was born in 1931, roughly 66 years after the end of the war. It was still a subject of discussion for her as a child. For her, it is less about the war itself and more about the way the South was completely demoralized afterward. Again, my kids know the basic facts of the war, but don't have any personal attachment to what happened either before or after.

[seabeyond]

56. it is hard to live in panhandle of texas when you are a calif...... i dont even have

being raised to be a proud texan, lol.

[SmileyRose]

59. I have found almost no difference between the north and the south.

I grew up in a Pennsylvania factory town. All mine and my husband's family are still in that area and we are there several weeks a year. It is still as familiar to us as our own hands. We have lived in small factory town south of Atlanta for 27 years. It was a hard road the first 5 years, needless to say, yankees are not well thought of here. I'd say we are now about 90% "in".

The only real difference between the North and the South I've seen is that in the North, everyone publicly pretends they don't all have a crazy uncle in the attic. In the South, you are EXPECTED to have a crazy uncle right out there on the front porch. So it goes with racism. In the north, they talk about racism in the south so they don't have to talk about their own. They keep their own racism in the attic and don't even realize how racist they are.

[renie408]

63. LOL about the 'crazy uncle' thing....n/t

[dgibby]

96. Not only do we not hide our crazy relatives,

we actually expect them to provide all the entertainment at the family reunions!

[Berry Cool]

66. You know what I really think this whole thread proves?

A homebody is a homebody. If you're a homebody, you simply enjoy living in the place you live, with all its faults and foibles, better than anyplace else, because you see it as having virtues no other place does...even if it doesn't, really. It's just that you're more USED TO those virtues there than anyplace else, or you feel less like a stranger there than anyplace else. So for you, it's the best place to live, and you're sick of apologizing for it to other people who don't understand.

I love my state--Ohio--too. This despite the fact that people, even people here, rag on it all the time and say the worst things about it (and even people HERE do!). There are places here where everybody knows everybody and where that's not a bad thing (as in everyone knowing the dirt) and you can have a chat with people and wave at them and have a homey, friendly diner meal if you want to. There are also wonderful, sophisticated places. There are also wacky born-agains, racist people who still use the N-word, and dumb rednecks by the carload. We have our share of foreclosed houses and dangerous neighborhoods and terrible schools and unemployment. But...those are EVERYWHERE. I learned that just from living in upstate New York. I ended up coming back here because of the pull toward home and the good things about it and the commonalities I shared with people here that everyone understands. It doesn't mean I don't still want to go other places and see and do other things. It just means this is where I choose to live.

I have always said I couldn't live in the South because the pace is TOO slow for me and the racism is TOO blatant and I feel like an outsider every time I go down there because people make such a big deal out of you when you're a visiting "Yankee" and never let you forget it. Well, for other people, I realize it's their home and they wouldn't live anywhere else, precisely because the pace is so slow (they might consider Ohio "too fast"), they don't like the racism but they're used to it and know how to deal with that particular brand, and they don't get ribbed for being a Yankee like I do because they're not, they're in the bosom of their own people--and they like it that way. Well, bully for them.

In short: don't let anyone ridicule you for living where you do and liking it. You have your reasons.

[renie408]

69. I can live with that. n/t

[dgibby]

93. Amen-home is where the heart is, warts and all! nt

[dysfunctional press]

68. it's even harder to be a non-southerner and having to share a country with the ones that are.

:shrug:

[RandomKoolzip]

82. Damn straight.

[JVS]

116. yup

[elehhhhna]

72. Ex-Chicago, now Houston Suburbs checking in...

You hit the nail on the head.

'tho Houston's vibe/feel is more western than southern, there are at least as many uncouth trashy people in the north as there are down here.


people are people. expect the best until/unless they prove you wrong.

[krabigirl]

77. That was interesting to read. I've never been to the South, unless Texas counts.

I'd like to visit, but since one of my main reasons to visit was to go to New Orleans, after Katrina, I've been too depressed to think about going right now.

I did go to a small town outside of Dallas for a business trip. Not sure if that counts as the South, but the people there were very friendly.

[liberalpress]

78. I feel your pain

I get crap for being a Believer and a liberal. It ain't about religion, it's about the RIGHT religion

[Jamastiene]

135. I still have a strong feeling that there is an opportunity for

building a strong Democratic coalition based on your very circumstances. Many of us here in the South who may consider ourselves agnostic or atheist, would love nothing more than to discuss tolerance and build a strong coalition to change things for the better. The right wing version of Christianity is way too intolerant. So, on that front, it would be impossible.

I've noticed the more liberal versions of Christianity are more tolerant. I still think there is a chance there to do some good with that. I just don't know how to approach the subject or really organize anything.

[liberalpress]

147. Yeah, it's kinda loke being a Democrat in the South

Unless you're talking an old-fashioned Conservative Dixiecrat, it isn't wise to spread that stuff around. You also really can't go by denominations... it's really more of a church by church thing. I would suggest just keeping your eyes open and start keeping a list of people like me who believe religion and government are two separate human functions. Eventually(and I hope sooner or later) you'll find enough to get something going. We're here, we're just hiding.

[Jamastiene]

161. oops, dupe, delete.

I double posted somehow. :o

[Jamastiene]

162. You know, the same applies to us too.

"We're here, we're just hiding."

I can't think of any truer way to say it than you just did. We just gotta find each other. If we do nothing else but form a get together in our areas and share experiences through conversation, it would certainly be much better than feeling so isolated and powerless. :hug:

[treestar]

80. I went to college in the south and was surprised to find what I call

the "southern inferiority complex." I had never thought about it or expected it. Yet I kept running into southerners making comments about how Yankees think they are superior and other shit like that. It only affected white people. Maybe there is a burden in being descended from those who fought for the Confederacy and slavery, or who might have supported segregation, something akin to being a German today. But there is no reason there should be. Move ahead, I would say. If a person is southern and a liberal, they have no reason to be ashamed, in fact they are out in front, and forward looking, perhaps more so than in the Northeast where it might be easier to be a liberal.

[Obamanaut]

81. I am "any Southerner" so you can ask me, and I will tell you that

Florida is indeed a southern state.

"Florida isn't really counted as a southern state, just ask any southerner. I am not sure what Florida is"

I think you'll find that Florida was one of the southern states in the confederacy at the time of the War of Secession (some like to call it that.) It is also south of the Mason-Dixon line, long considered to be the dividing line between north and south.

This very morning I had breakfast at a diner such as was described in the OP (we have several of those), and after we finished eating Ms ret88 and I went and sat by the Suwannee River whilst we waited on the groomer to finish two of our furkids.

We do have our fair share of racist, ignorant, religious nuts and even a redneck or two. BUT, in my small town we have diners where the waitress will call us older patrons "sweetie". I ride a motorcycle, and when I park it anywhere locally the gloves and helmet are still on the seat when I return to it. People stop to assist motorists who are broken down by the side of the road, and don't expect or ask for payment.

Perhaps all this is because my small town is a small town. I don't get to the larger places very often, so I cannot speak to their behavior. I like it where I live, and I bet you would also.

[yardwork]

84. What is an "economic immigrant" and why are they "killing" the culture of the south?

I also live in the south, and I see a culture here that is a combination of many previous waves of immigration - voluntary and otherwise - that created this complex culture.

[Starbucks Anarchist]

89. It's harder for us to be held politically hostage by southern states.

You know, the ones that keep putting Republicans in office and taking it out on us.

[Blue_In_AK]

90. Try being an Alaskan.

We're catching our fair share of national opprobrium these days.

[Vanje]

95. Could be worse

The reddest state in the union (based on persistent high G W Bush approval ratings) is...

Idaho

What is that ground shaking feeling I keep getting lately?

Its the whole state having orgasms about Sarah Palin!

[Solon]

97. Who are these "economic immigrants" and what are they doing to kill the culture of the South...

Let's just say my curiosity is peaked here.

[dgibby]

101. I can't speak for the OP, but

imo, economic immigrants are folks who move to the South in search of jobs or retire here due to a lower cost of living, warmer weather, etc. As for killing the culture, they all bring with them different beliefs, viewpoints. Many of them are very critical of the South and don't hesitate to make their feelings known, thus giving birth to one of the funniest bumperstickers I've ever seen: We Don't Give a Damn How You Do It Up North! As a southerner, it's frustrating when people move here, then belittle, mock, and complain about our culture. I'm not saying everything here is perfect or that we don't need change, but ticking us off isn't the best way to effect change. I'm also not accusing all non-native southerners of this behavior.

[Solon]

104. I will confess that I look down on "traditional" Southern Culture...

Usually because its far more insular than even the larger American Culture, which is itself rather xenophobic. Of course, I live in a border state, where, if I travel 10 miles south, I'm all of the sudden in the Antebellum South, whereas right now I live in Midwest culture.

Its the difference between those who call our state Missour-EE and those who call it Missour-AH, and the contrast can be quite extreme.

[MsTryska]

158. i went to missouri once...

what struck me most on my visit was the ambivalence some your residents have of being mistaken for Southern.

[Solon]

164. Ha! I've had people comment to me, on the phone, that I should have a southern accent...

mostly people from further up north. I'm like, no, I don't have a southern accent, I'm from the Mid-West. But apparently, people in Iowa have a more pronounced accent than I do in this regard, considering they are further north than me, I find that odd.

Oh, and yes, many of us, especially those north of I-70, and near the cities of St. Louis, Columbia, and Kansas City, loudly proclaim that we aren't part of the South. I'm proud to say that one of my earliest ancestors to this area joined the Union Army soon after emigrating, he emigrated in the 1850s or so.

[MsTryska]

165. yeah - i was up in Fenton

and there did seem to be a big North/South Divide - not so much a Union thing as a hick thing.

They made a big deal of it cuz i was coming up from Atlanta I think. I told them not to worry, we know you're not Southern.

[bvar22]

108. I'm one.

My wife, Starkraven would make two.

We sold everything, cashed in most of our IRA, bought land, and moved from Minneapolis to very rural Arkansas.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=246x5729

We don't really consider ourselves to be "economic immigrants", but the label may apply.
We came South looking for fertile, inexpensive land, unspoiled/pristine environment, plenty of clean water, a loooong growing season, low energy expenditures, and low property taxes.
We have met several other families up in these hills that have moves South for the same reasons.

We miss Minneapolis...art, restaurants, multi-cultural environment, bicycle friendly, endless varieties of entertainment and education, REAL snow.

It was EASY being Blue in Minneapolis.
It is more difficult here, but not impossible.
While we miss Minneapolis, we won't be going back. We love it here.

[dgibby]

110. And you've improved that land, too!

I soooooooo have garden envy-your's is beautiful. Makes me hungry every time you post another picture! Yum!:hi:

[dgibby]

98. How to tell if you are really in the South

Are grits and sweet tea on the menu? If so, you are definitely in the South!:rofl:

[Taverner]

100. Sounds like you're working to make it better

I have no problem with the South - very friendly, very honest and, well, very humid.

But you have to admit that some rural towns in the South get caught up in their own Confederate Zeitgeists. They don't trust 'Yankees' and would rather trust a huckster preacher than an intelligent Northerner. This leads to problems.

Given that, I would argue that Austin, TX and Athens, GA (as well as the Atlanta Metro Area) have more fire in the belly than Berkeley, SF, LA and Oakland CA put together. When you know you're in the minority, it leads to a certain agitation that you don't get here.

The legacy of racism is there too. Not everywhere, and not in most places but I have come accross it. Literally. I went on a sales call recently in TN and the backup specialist I was with, who was Filipino, was not allowed to access the computer to do the install because it was "against common policy" (said with an eyeroll from the Admin). This was a bank, albeit a local one.

[MsTryska]

159. Was that specifically because he was filipino tho?

Having been an Admin myself, I'll be damned if any outsider gets access to my network to install anything, be they black, white, yellow or martian. And I'm brown.

[Name removed]

105. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[annabanana]

106. This is the friendliest, least knee-jerked, most interesting most informative

thread on the differences between American regions that I have EVER seen on du.

Thank you

and

Thank you-all

[Jamastiene]

139. and Thank y'all.

[David Zephyr]

107. Respectfully, this native of the South says without any reservation: all states are not equal

The truth is:

Some states are far more progressive than others states.

Some states fund education, museums, social services, libraries and college far more than other states.

Some states have proud progressive histories with regards to union organizing, women's rights, civil rights for minorities, decriminalizing homosexuality and protecting them in legal statutes.

Some states prospered from the holocaust of slavery for an unforgivable amount of time, while other states saw slavery as evil and made it illegal.

Some states waged war against our republic in order to protect the right of their privileged whites to own slaves and other states fought back against them.

Some states enacted child labor laws early in our country's history while others resisted it.

Some states consistently elect reactionary monsters to the halls of Congress that keep our country held back from making strides in the quality of life of our citizens, while other states consistently send progressive persons to Washington.

Some states are ruby red and are stuck there probably for generations still to come, and other states are ocean blue and seem to get bluer every year.

Some states recognize that our environment is precious and have long histories of enacting laws to protect it dating back to the 1800's while other states have allowed their geography to become toxic dumping grounds for nuclear waste and bio-hazards.

It is intellectually dishonest to try and blur the differences between states and regions of the country with proud histories of struggling for progressive values and those states and regions who have historical dark histories. While no piece of geography in our nation is pure, it is unjust to try and diminish the bold, courageous and noble histories of some states in order to put a salve on the shame that other states rightfully deserve.

Finally, this may come as a surprise to you, but here in Southern California we also go to football games on Friday nights, and in our communities, most of us know each other, too. We also have conversations at the gas station and "chat with the checkout people at the grocery store, we wave at people on the road." And we have our little diners up the road where many of us go to on Sunday morning for breakfast and they are also "homey and friendly".

All states are not equal when it comes to truly the supporting quality of life of ALL of its citizens. Some shine and others simply don't.

[cwydro]

109. Prejudice is certainly not only in the south.

I grew up in Charlotte and in the early 70's they began forced busing in Boston and in Charlotte.

Guess where the school buses full of little black children were attacked?

Not in Charlotte.

I'm in Florida now, which is not southern except in the northern part of the state, funnily enough. I love SC too and my sister lives there now.

[mudesi]

112. I'm tired of these posts

The south has held on to virtually all the political power in America for almost 30 years. It's the south that has continued to vote in Republicans and DLC "blue dog" DINO Democrats. It's a mathematical fact that you can't win the presidency without taking the south. Look at how the electoral votes are distributed.

Yet all northerners ever hear about is just how misunderstood southerners are and the incessant whining about being "put down" and stereotyped. Never mind how the north is constantly characterized by southerners as elitist and out of touch "latte liberals" with no morals. (Odd seeing as how the lowest divorce rates and crime rates are found in the north).

That, and the never ending contention by southerners for northerners to "keep it up" every time a northerner makes what is perceived to be an insult to the fragile sensibilities of southerners. "Keep it up", they'll threaten, and they won't vote for the "guy from Massachusetts", because they know they have the political power. Southerners have the most massive inferiority complex in the nation.

Just look at your subject line. Tell me just wast it is that is so "hard" about being a southerner? Can't take an SNL skit mocking a southern accent? Can't take a northerner thinking that the south is full of religion and racism and ignorance? Is your ego really so fragile?

South Carolina might just go to Obama in a couple of months, but only because Obama is forced to be against gay marriage; only because Obama is forced to say he's for the outdated and much needing to be repealed second amendment; only because Obama must be pro capital punishment. And it's still going to be a close race.

What about northern values? Would Obama even be in contention if he were for gay marriage, against capital punishment, and pro gun control? Is it really so hard to be a southerner when southerners have a virtual dictatorship on who can and can't win the presidency, the House and the Senate? Can Dennis Kucinich be Governor of Texas? Can Barbara Boxer run for Senate in Mississippi? Can John Kerry take Alabama? Why is America forced to choose between a conservative and a conservative every single election cycle?

It sounds to me like southerners want respect, but are they willing to give it?

[mtnsnake]

115. Tough diddly squat for you, I'm from NY & I can relate more to the OP than to your dramatic whinery

Did you read the OP or did you just fail to grasp the relevance of her message?

[Two Americas]

126. amazing expression of bigotry there

I think it is really the ultimate expression of bigotry, and quite illogical, to respond to someone's suggestion that we don't stereotype and generalize about people with a flurry of bigoted and hateful stereotypes and generalizations.

Your post is stunningly hypocritical and hateful.

Bigotry against some "them" you imagine to all be bigoted is still bigotry.

Hatred against some "them" that you imagine to all be haters is still hatred.

Your hatred and bigotry is the worse kind, because you try to justify it by saying that it is the targets of your hatred and bigotry that are the bigots and the haters, so that makes it OK.

[dgibby]

138. Well, Bless yo little ole heart!

Why ain't you just somethin' else, just a jumpin up and down on our little ole thread here. Why, butter mah butt and call me a biscut, I never in all my bornded days don never seen nothin' like it. Why, sonny, if'n we aknowed you was a commin for a visit, we'da fixed you some southern fried chicken and a mess of greens, and a big ole pitcher of sweet tea, unless you'da perferred lemonade. It's just a caution, how you done gone and suprised us all by droppin' in all unannounced and everything like that, but that's ok, lordy knows you and your'n are just as welcome as the flowers in May! But now there is one thing you should know (I ain't a preachin' at you, just tryin' to edumacate ya jest a little. GOD DON'T LIKE UGLY! Bless your heart, now ya'll come back, ya'll heahr.:hi: BTW, this is what's known as Southern Charm--it's what we serve here in lieu of a bil ole bowl of stupid.

[MsTryska]

160. What's crackin me up is the posters name...

FREEBIRD!

bless.

[Greyhound]

117. I lived in Cobb County Georgia during the reign of Newt, and you're just wrong.

Of course ignorance, racism, and other prejudice lives everywhere, it's just that in other places we don't let them rule. That is the difference.

I can't count how many time I was warned about what a horrible place Atlanta is because of all those black people (of course hardly anybody uses the word black). I was told that we must vote to keep MARTA (as a resident I'm sure you are familiar with the translation of MARTA) out of Cobb county because all "those people" would have access to come rape and rob us (of course all criminals are black and can't get a car or read a map). I was subjected to endless hours of the most simple-minded, historically inaccurate, gibberish on the Civil War and their "proud heritage". All this as a friend, a person they considered to be one of them, the guy they invite home to meet their daughters.

Again, there are horrible people everywhere, they are just not in charge in other parts of the country.

[gratefultobelib]

121. I'm glad to have read this. I admit to some sterotyping feelings when it comes to southerners and

shame on me for lumping everybody together!

[crazy_vanilla]

122. you expressed yourself in a vary polite and gracious way

And that is so Southern. I moved from WA to TX a few years back and could see the difference in both the good and the bad immediately. I think different people choose to concentrate on different things. The South is wonderful if you know where to look.

[gaspee]

125. Hmmm

My biggest problem with the south - the cold hard fact of the 2000 and 2004 electoral maps and the representation the southern states send to Congress.

Oh, and the religiosity - got sick and tired of people thinking it was their right, no, DUTY to "save" me.

I HATED living in the south and would never, ever, ever live there again.

Say whatever you want about New England, but take a look at who we elect (My Senators Reed and Whitehouse, ROCK) and take a look at who the south elects.

That says it all to me. The rest is all noise pollution.

[sarcasmo]

127. Fellow Atheist, I have a saying that I use often here in West Michigan.

Expect Stupidity.

[Aristus]

131. Being Southern-born myself, I can see the logic at the core of your argument.

But at the same time, no other region in the country institutionalized their racism and bigotry to the same extent that the South did. Or fought a war to preserve it. Or circumvented Federal law for so long after the war to preserve Jim Crow. Or joyously waves the flag of hatred and intolerance the way the South does while excusing it as a recognition of "heritage" (one of the most blood-boiling, radioactive code words in the American-English lexicon).

If the Jena 6 incident had happened in any other part of the country (and I admit, it could have) you would not have had so many people dismissing it with the words: "Well, them nigras jes' need ta larn their place, 'at's all."

Every time I go down home for a visit, I feel like I'm on a strange, not quite pleasant planet, where the sunny smiles and melodious drawls of the people are masking a raging torrent of hatred and revulsion for everyone who isn't just exactly like themselves. I don't visit much anymore...

[bvar22]

144. "no other region in the country institutionalized their racism "

The extermination of the Native Americans was institutionalized.
Visit some of the reservations in the MidWest/Western states for a good look at institutionalized racism.

[McCamy Taylor]

133. I'm a southerner and much of the south is rotten to the core. The urban south is fine in many places

like Atlanta, NOLA, Houston but once you get into the rural areas and small towns, you face open bigotry, institutionalized discrimination and working class white people who are dumb enough to believe that their bosses really do have a sense of solidarity with them because they all happen to be white when the truth is that their bosses are just playing a game designed to keep white workers and Latino workers and Black workers from ever joining together and forming a union that might raise wages and improve working conditions.

THAT is the truth of the South.

When dumb as shit blue collar workers who can not make ends meet bitch about how other blue collar workers who happen to be of different ethnic groups are responsible for their problems, you know that you dealing with some seriously deluded people that need to have their heads knocked together.

Now, you can find that same attitude all across the nation, because the bosses are smart and they know that this divide and conquer strategy works. But no single group of workers has been as eager to embrace the I'm a boss 'cause I'm white like the bosses doctrine as idiot white southerners.

When people have nothing to feel proud of, I guess the lack of melanin pigment in their skin and straight hair is something they can be proud of.

[carlyhippy]

140. give me the south anytime

I grew up in the south, now live in the north. I want to share something that a born/bred northern tier person told me the other day.....

A guy and I were in a conversation about work ethic. He proceeded to tell me that it is a known fact that most companies hire people from the midwest/upper midwest, simply because of their hard work ethic, that statistically the folks from this part of the country are harder workers than any other portion of the country. After I pulled my jaw from the floor, I told him that some of these folks need to go to the south and pick watermelons or lettuce or do roof shingling by hand for minimum wage for 10-11 hours a day in 120 degree heat, or work in the oilfied for a 12-hour shift as a roustabout, then come back here and talk to me about hard workers. I felt offended, as I am a hard worker and I am actually from the south.....

[bvar22]

142. Lets all go to Katmandu!

I think Im going to katmandu.
Thats really, really where Im going to.
If I ever get out of here,
Thats what Im gonna do.
K-k-k-k-k-k katmandu.
I think thats really where Im going to.
If I ever get out of here,
Im going to katmandu.

I got no kick against the west coast.
Warner brothers are such good hosts.
I raise my whiskey glass and give them a toast.
Im sure they know its true.
I got no rap against the southern states.
Every time Ive been there its been great.
But now Im leaving and I cant be late
And to myself be true.

Thats why Im going to katmandu.
Up to the mountains where Im going to.
And if I ever get out of here,
Thats what Im gonna do.
K-k-k-k-k-k katmandu.
Thats really, really where Im going to.
If I ever get out of here,
Im going to katmandu.

Ive got no quarrel with the midwest.
The folks out there have given me their best.
Ive lived there all my life; Ive been their guest.
I sure have loved it, too.
Im tired of looking at the tv news.
Im tired of driving hard and paying dues
I figure, baby, Ive got nothing to lose.
Im tired of being blue.

Thats why Im going to katmandu.
Up to the mountains where Im going to.
If I ever get out of here,
Thats what Im gonna do.
K-k-k-k-k-k katmandu.
Take me, baby, cause Im going with you.
If I ever get out of here,
Im going to katmandu.

I aint got nothin gainst the east coast.
You want some people where they got the most!
And new york citys like a friendly ghost;
You seem to pass right through.
I know Im gonna miss the usa.
I guess Ill miss it every single day.
But no one loves me here anyway!
I know my plane is due.

The one thats going to katmandu.
Up to the mountains where Im going to.
If I ever get out of here,
Thats what Im gonna do.

K-k-k-k-k-k katmandu.
Really, really, really, going to.
If I ever get out of here,
If I ever get out of here,
If I ever get out of here,
Im going to katmandu.

----bob seger

[McCamy Taylor]

143. Why is voter suppression so bad in Florida? Because it is in the SOUTH!

Southern whites think they have a god given right to keep Blacks and other minorities (and the whites who vote in the same party that Blacks vote in) from casting a vote and from having it counted.

Why does the DOJ still have to sign off on any voting laws that come out of the South? Because the South is full of cheaters who do not believe in the democratic principle of one citizen one vote. In the South white folks will come right out and say that they do not think that "certain people" should be entitled to vote.

At least in other parts of the country they know that sound like bigoted assholes if they say it out loud.

Imagine being a member of a minority and growing up in a community which tells you to your face that you will be allowed to vote if the local sheriff thinks you should be allowed to vote. That is what it is like growing up Black in many parts of the south today . And if you complain to the Bush DOJ, they will send someone in to see if the voting rights of whites have been compromised.

[dgibby]

145. I am disappointed and saddened

You are one of the smartest, most eloquent posters on DU, and I have learned quite a lot reading you're threads. In fact, I was blown away by the thread you just posted about the bail-out. I was going to post a reply there, but being a white blue collar southerner (though certainly not a racist), I realized, based on the opinions and sweeping generalizations you've made about me and others on this thread, that I would not be welcome. I do not in any way denigrate or deny your experiences or feelings. I would appreciate it if you would show me and others the same courtesy. Racism is a two-way street and you are driving into oncoming traffic in the wrong lane. This is so beneath you.:-(

[SmokingJacket]

148. There are also nice, small town culture things about other places.

The South doesn't have a monopoly on problems, but it doesn't have a monopoly on the hominess, either.

[dgibby]

149. You are so right

and I don't believe anyone posting here claimed that we did, but maybe I missed somethng?

[SmokingJacket]

168. Nope, just the implication.

:hi:

[KathieG]

150. I am a New England transplant, atheist liberal Democrat living in North Central Florida...

(north of Ocala)...talk about culture shock! Trust me...it is very "deep south" here. I had never heard the "N word" used in casual conversation until I moved here...I was shocked.

I have been here for about 8 years now, and I have one good friend (another northerner). Being a horse owner, I have tried to befriend fellow horse people over the years, but once they found out I was an atheist and "librul"...most shunned me. I'm sure it was bad enough that I was a "yankee". No big loss...not the kind of friends I'm looking for anyways.

I was a member of a local Florida horse message board for quite a while but I couldn't take the ignorance any longer...a lot of racism, posts containing "if it's gods will" and "I need prayers"...then the primaries came, and posts about how "Obama is the antichrist" and talk of the "librul media". I was out of there.

I will say it's lovely here...horse country. My husband has a decent state job. I love the weather (aside from the humidity in the summer months). We plan on staying in the area until he retires. It's just unfortunate that I can't be comfortable with many of the people. My husband doesn't have as tough of a time...he's a Florida native, has some lifelong friends, he is also much better at avoiding sensitive topics than I am.

[Skittles]

151. as someone who has lived both north and south

I agree there are racists and ignorance everywhere but I also know there's DAMN SURE more of it in the south

[anaxarchos]

157. It is hard to be a Floridian...

There is so much GOOD here. There is a sense of culture and a different rhythm to life. It is growing fast with the influx of economic immigrants. But, every so often, some Southerner says some shit like, "Florida isn't really counted as a southern state, just ask any southerner. I am not sure what Florida is." Fuckin' Southerners, always looking down on people... You 'Southerners' don't speak Spanish? Well, it's your loss.

(Rinse. Repeat)

[Buns_of_Fire]

166. Let them say what they want. The south has something other regions will NEVER appreciate.

Grits.:-)

[BlooInBloo]

173. Meh. Catfish > grits.

:P

[old mark]

167. renie408: Although I am a Yankee by birth,

I have relatives from the South and have lived in the South.
My family had members on both sides of our great war.

Some of the finest and sweetest people I have met are Southerners.

I have to tell you, we have more than our share of asholes in the North.
(Maybe I don't have to tell you - some of them come down to visit you.)

mark

[October]

171. Renie408: It's hard being a democrat

Seriously.

I'm in the supposedly liberal northeast -- and I can find right-wingers anywhere.


None of us lives in a pure BLUE area. We need not pick on each other's geographic location. I hate seeing that here at DU. We're all in this mess together.

It's red vs. blue -- and if you look at the "electoral" map -- red is everywhere.

Peace.

[BlooInBloo]

172. Nobody denies that bigotry has branch offices all over the country....

However, there is no doubt but that they're *headquartered* in The South.