New economic system, let it crash... it won't affect me.. we are bailing the rich

[nadinbrzezinski]

and my favorite... they caused it.

So let me address some of this point by point

New Economic System: I am assuming socialism.

So what do you want? A marxist system? With a full command economy? That may imply some other things like methods of the police state to control a population that may or may not be willing to go along. Mind you... this is utopia, for the same reasons capitalism is utopia. Get this through your heads, we do NOT live in a capitalist system. Haven't for decades now.

Now if you are talking socialism... with a mixed economy... now THAT is doable... it's been done... called the New Deal and the 1950s and 1960s saw it flourishing. We had over 300 oil companies, for example, today we have 8... so tell me how is that capitalist? It is not. But much of the mission critical elements of the economy were in the hands of the state... so when you paid your power bill it WAS a public company, not a private one. Oh and taxation to the upper 1% was down right nasty, 90%... read some history... that is DOABLE.. but leave the S word at home... that is still scary to way too many people.

My question to all of you is HOW ARE YOU GOING TO GET THERE? Posting on DU is going to get you nowhere. So are you willing to take to the streets? March, fight the cops... get tasered and tear gassed? That is what it took to get the New Deal... save the tasers. but billy clubs were just as bad. And yes, people died.

Now to the let it crash crowd... are you fucking nuts? If this does not work you will be dreaming of the bad old days of the spring of this year before it is over. You have NO CLUE what that would do to the country, that is WHY they are trying to do something. Now here is what you need to do though. You need to MAN those phones and contact anybody you can think in power and make your demands known, and BE WILLING TO TAKE TO THE STREETS

Now the Wont Affect ME crowd is truly delusional... and if the shoe fits, so be it.

We are bailing the rich... well partially yes... and I am sure there is a prosecution or two in there (malfesance and fraud come to mind) But even the rich will be suffering. I know you will get the violins out... and partially I will too... but this is the result of RIGHT WING ECONOMICS. You have a UNIQUE historical chance to talk down to the neighbors and get some CLASS UNITY going, to use an old Marxist term... but eating the rich will get you a new set of bosses, and by the way glorious revolutions involve skulking in the dead of night and shooting your neighbor. There is no honor, or glory, in a civil war, and if you think there is... then by all means... go for it... but do it for real... I am getting tired of the 101st keyboard commandos who just bitch and moan and dream of what it could be but don't put in the physical work.

Oh and finally the.. but they caused it... boys and girls this defies everything I know about human self preservation. Yes, they will use it to try to get their plans in motion... why YOU NEED TO MAN PHONES AND BE READY TO STRIKE ON A MOMENTS NOTICE... but they did not cause it

I will recommend you start readying on WHAT led to the Great Depression, or the Grant Depression. The causes are very similar... to what is going on right now. They did not cause it... the party of business is not going to crash the economy literally weeks before the election. If anything, they've been trying to stop this for a while... or until after the election. This is the worst case scenario for those who understand how this works.

Now I am sure I will continue to do a lot of this over the coming weeks

:banghead:

One thing we definitely need to do is rebuild the educational system... that and national health care are priorities. OIF

[still_one]

1. Why was the Glass Stegal Act repealed? What did they remove the restriction of

shorting on the down tick? Why was uncovered short selling allowed?

Why were loans given to people who couldn't afford those loans? 20 years ago those loans would have never been issued

So we are suppossed to bail out companies that didn't follow good business practices?

After 9/11, millions were given to the airline industry. Other than tremendous airline CEO packages, how did those millions help the airline industry?

Why should we reward companies that have been mismanaged?

[nadinbrzezinski]

2. Why was Taft Haley Passed in 1947?

RIGHT WING free market religion, that is why.

Here is my point... we need to survive this storm

And by the way there were prosecutions after 1929... it just took ten years

I am betting that if we get a willing AG... we can get that going... but it will take that long... the forensics alone take MANY people and years to go through

[still_one]

6. Companies who are badly managed should NOT be proped up

[nadinbrzezinski]

11. In principle I agree, why companies that are too big to fail should not exist

the legislation, all that antitrust laws... has to be dusted off and liberally used

Why haven;t they been used? RIGHT WING FUNDAMENTALISM

This is what we have lived under for 25 years... yes that includes the clinton years

[still_one]

13. All I ask Congress to do if they pass this bailout is at the same time repeal Gramm-Leach-Bliley

[nadinbrzezinski]

15. CALL them, don't tell me

I spent a good two hours Friday calling Congress critters and I suspect I will spend that much this coming monday if not more

Organize your neighbors and march on the local federal building

Posting it here, beyond letting others know, will do squat

[still_one]

16. I plan to email them tomorrow. I also want them to limit the maximum interest

for credit cards

none of this 30% B.S.

You and I have no disagreement

[nadinbrzezinski]

19. Good, you may want to start with some lawas in the books

rarely enforced...

Ah start with the Sherman Antitrust law

Yes, add the info from WIKI... I fear our reps know squat about this

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sherman_Antitrust_Act

Demand that they get the Labor Relations Board back where it was BEFORE Reagan

We need to bring back the Wagner Act, and include in it the new law labor wanted to organize... and hold votes

Oh and get rid of Taft Hatley, which started the right to work state shit

And of course all this needs to be brought up to date and USED

Oh and Davis Bacon also needs to be updated and we need new legislation establishing living wages in lieu of minimum wage laws

[still_one]

28. I just wrote the email to my Senators, and Congress Person rather than wait tomorrow

I will contact them by phone on Monday with the issues you brought up


Thanks

[illuminaughty]

34. Just e-mailed all reps....will start the calls

Reminds me of DU 2004, when we were begging fellow posters to contact Senators to get JUST ONE to stand up and object the election. I spent hours filling voice mails of all the senators. It's easy to do, but it needs to be en masse. Doesn't matter if it's your senator or not. CALL...leave a message...We got one lone Senator, Senator Barbara Boxer to stand up, but DO something.

[coalition_unwilling]

18. You mean "Taft-Hartley," I assume? Before

you start lecturing others on "magical thinking," it would behoove you to get your legislation citations correct.

N.B. The New Deal did not see any socialism. If anything, FDR saved capitalism, something the RW conveniently forgets.

[nadinbrzezinski]

20. That is why they did all they could to repeal the 1930s legislation

by the way... tell me are we living in a capitalist society? Please do cite, liberally if you want, from Adam Smith... and especially when it refers to Monopolies

[coalition_unwilling]

25. "Capitalism": the means of production

are privately held. "Socialism": public ownership of the means of production.

Which, in your opimion, best describes the current US economy???

[nadinbrzezinski]

27. Corporatism

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporatism

[coalition_unwilling]

32. Oh please, "corporatism" describes an

extreme form of capitalism, but it's still CAPITALISM: the private ownership of the means of production.

As Obama says, "You can put lipstick on a pig . . . "

Your sophistry ill becomes you.

N.B. I live in the district of that noted war pig, corporatist Jane Harman. Think I should waste my time contacting that DINO???

[nadinbrzezinski]

36. Yes, you should

every one

And no CORPORATISI IS NOT CAPITALISM

Spend some time READYNG Adam Smith and other Classic economics

Have a good life

[EmeraldCityGrl]

4. We shouldn't. The American people have yet to say "ENOUGH" and mean it.

[still_one]

10. I agree. You would think they would at least repeal the Gramm-Leach-Bliley Act

as part of the package

[gate of the sun]

85. agreed.

just doing some theraputic posting.....it's been mostly years since I posted but am so upset and need an outlet. The interesting thing is how do american people say enough and be heard and responded to? This seems to be pretty much absent in the last 8 years. So what now, we are at an extreme moment of crisis how do we say it's enough???

[nadinbrzezinski]

93. We may (will) need to do more than just post on a site

we need to take to the streets

Now do write your critters... and call them in the morning

[drm604]

3. Thank You

It's refreshing to see some sanity on here.

I can't believe the number of people who think this whole thing was planned. Believing that means believing that the planners believe that they can actually control something like this once it starts.

They would never risk something like this. It's too uncontrollable and too unpredictable. A market crash is the result of the actions of thousands of institutions and millions of individual investors who are selling in panic. It's not something that can be controlled, and there's no guarantee that a bailout will work.

Starting something like this would be suicidal.

[nadinbrzezinski]

7. It is magical thinking driven by absolute fear

As to the run on banks, I think (as somebody else observed this week) it's already happened, it was electronic

[still_one]

12. Then why as part of the package don't they repeal the Gramm-Leach-Bliley Act?

[gate of the sun]

86. I think you post is incredibly off base

I think the bad behavior and creed ruled the market and they knew they were essentially broke and the knew they put out all these morgages that would take a bad turn and I say bullshit they intended to bankrupt the american people and this has all been about bucking up the rich .

[Wiley50]

5. Read this, Nadin and then get back to me

http://www.economicpopulist.org/?q=content/what-hell-just-happened

It will only take a few minutes, you'll see

[nadinbrzezinski]

9. I know what happened, and Mr. Krugman put in quite the comical terms

this week, yesterday to be exact...

Commissar Paulson took over the means of production

(Truly of finance but you get the picture)

I know what this has done... I also know what WILL happen if this does not work

It will make the spring of this year look like the good ol' days

Are we broke? yes... but to anybody wishing for a complete crash, they;re nuts

[Wiley50]

22. I prefer this:

Not wishing a crash

but there's a better way:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x4048996

[nadinbrzezinski]

26. This is KEYNES all the way

and in an ideal world we'd stop trading for a couple of weeks until we figure out what to do

I don't like what they are doing.. I also know that I will be making many calls (AGAIN) on Monday to those in charge.

Now you want that implemented... fine. you prefer it, what are you willing to do to get this?

[Wiley50]

29. I'm disabled. I'm limited to phone calls and emails n/t

[nadinbrzezinski]

40. Good enough for me

It starts somewhere

[coalition_unwilling]

30. 3 million killed by the US in SE Asia,

1 million killed by the US in Iraq. Not to mention the Central American wars of the 80s.

I say the US upper- and middle classes deserve a serious ass-kicking for that alone.

[prayin4rain]

8. I agree, we do not want a civil war.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/02/13/AR2008021302783.html

http://current.com/items/89322147_the_financial_meltdown_explained

[nadinbrzezinski]

14. Why am I reminded even more of oh... Hoover's policies?

[MsTryska]

17. I would just like to say that...

I love your economic posts!

[nadinbrzezinski]

21. You welcome, I should start giving people links

to really basic stuff.. we really need an education in this country

:-(

[MsTryska]

33. if there was only a way to couch

the language in such a way that it made for good bumper sticker slogans, it would be easier to make our fellow citizens understand.

I hate to say that, but sadly it's true. we dumb.

[nadinbrzezinski]

39. Been talking about it with family

in the 1930s people got it at a gut level... and there was no colledge educated masses

People had a better clue of how the economy worked

These days... we are better "educated" but far more ignorant. It is down right scary

[MsTryska]

42. And the game has become Byzantine

upthread a Mandatory High School course was suggested. That is a great idea, but would the Lobbyists ever allow it on a Federal level? highly unlikely - perhaps on a state by state level. Or even a School district by School District level.

[An Intellectual]

23. Don't give our past presidents too much credit; even though the top rate was at 90%...

...practically no one paid anything close to 90% due to the incredible loopholes which were in place back then. In other words, rich capitalists have always owned this country. :mad:

[nadinbrzezinski]

24. Why the loopholes were removed in '61 and the rate dropped to 70%

it was still too horrible for these folks

By the way... answer this question, if you want a real revolution... and I mean the take to the streets, go to war, kind.. what are you doing here?

Oh and note to the ignorant

But something is wrong. The income gap is growing faster in the United States than in any other developed nation. Between 1990 and 2000 in the U.S. worker pay and inflation remained approximately equal, while corporate profits rose 93% and CEO pay rose 571%. Meanwhile, the portion of federal revenue derived from corporate income tax has decreased from 33% in the 1950s to 11.9% in 2005, reaching a low of 7.4% in 2003. Hundreds of companies have avoided taxes by relocating to tax havens such as Bermuda and the Cayman Islands. Eighty-two of our largest corporations paid no tax in at least one of the first three years of the Bush administration.

http://www.stwr.org/poverty-inequality/the-income-gap-profits-up-93-ceo-pay-up-571-worker-salaries-stagnant.html

By the way in the 1950s that differential was not that sharp... why is that?

Oh yes, I forgot, we lived in a more equitable society with a STRONG labor movement

[fla nocount]

31. Crash and burn baby, let's get it over with.

This has been done before but it was done from scratch. We are not going to reform or conform the financial or geopolitical situation we find ourselves in by posting at DU. "Change" means different from that which has passed. We must first let it pass and it will be with no permission or input from us, We The People.

[nadinbrzezinski]

37. I truy hope you enjoy your pink slip

[greblc]

115. I could use some time off. I enjoy camping too!

Your insight is wonderful but I'm not afraid. I can see the bottom from where I'm at and it will not bother me to share the view with a few suits.

[Captiosus]

35. "I am getting tired of the 101st keyboard commandos who just

bitch and moan and dream of what it could be but don't put in the physical work."

"Posting on DU is going to get you nowhere."

Says the person who has posted multiple 500-1000, or more, word posts on the exact same topic, with the exact same substance. Anyone who has disagreed with you or offered a different perspective is deemed wrong, or, in your latest salvo, poorly educated.

You, sir, are the Two-Star General in charge of the 101st Keyboard Commando Brigade.

[nadinbrzezinski]

38. So exactly what HAVE YOU DONE

this week?

SOLDIER

[Odin2005]

41. They are secular end-timers, little different from fundies waiting for the rapture.

Marxist-Leninist "make the system collapse in order to cause the great revolution" thinking is merely a secularized version of Judeo-Christian End-Times theology. It's annoying as hell. I'm a socialist, but I'm no Marxist; IMO Marxism has greatly damaged the socialist movement and this is one of the reasons why.

[nadinbrzezinski]

43. Well we have two major secular religions here

the RIGHT wing The market works (until we need a bailout), and the Left wing let it burn crowd

Same type of thinking, but you are right

Now if this truly crashes I fear for the future even more

[Hardrada]

94. There's another one not too far away; Die Fahne Hoch

Die Reihen sind geschlossen! No we probably don't want a crash.

[nadinbrzezinski]

97. true... but we have plenty of secular armageddon fans round these parts

it is unfrigging amazing

[neverforget]

44. Sorry but this bill isn't going to stop what is coming which is a meltdown.

I don't want it to happen but this is the price WE are going to pay for living on credit for decades. This is going to be painful AND this plan is not going to fix it.

I'm with Paul Krugman's blog on this NO DEAL! and his latest Thinking the Bailout Through

[nadinbrzezinski]

45. Part of his answer

It now appears that isn’t happening, and public intervention is needed. But in that case, shouldn’t the public intervention also be at stage 2 — that is, shouldn’t it take the form of public injections of capital, in return for a stake in the upside?

In my view this means a couple things

(By the way addressed this in letter to congress already)

1.- Keep homeowners at HOME... bottom up economics

2.- WE get a stake, as in a major stake in these companies

By the way... WRITE your congress critters and make your thoughts known and do it TODAY

And CALL them tomorrow

[neverforget]

46. I already wrote my congress critters and i emailed the banking committees

in the house and senate yesterday. I am calling tomorrow voice my outrage at this.

[Tutonic]

47. Gonna agree with you. It will bankrupt our country but we've been

down that road before.

[cliffordu]

48. Let it crash. Bring it down. Fuck the rich, the speculators the usurers and the

scumsucking politicians who are bought and sold like so many coke whores.....

They've stolen my country. I want it back.

[nadinbrzezinski]

49. Hope you enjoy cardboard and a pink slip

that is what the crash will do

[cliffordu]

50. I'm already at the bottom of the bottom...but i have absolutely no debt...

and I own the '83 airstream I live in....

And two acres I rent going into a garden in the spring.

people here have been buying bulk with this in mind for some time - earthquakes and all and the Katrina lesson.....


I don't give a shit. I lived in cardboard before, and I can do it again. I like rat meat.

[nadinbrzezinski]

51. GOOD FOR YOU

things can still get far worst than you have them NOW

But your attitude is, I got mine, FUCK THE REST

How ahem, progressive of you

[cliffordu]

52. I lost EVERYTHING due to illness...I sold the house minutes before foreclosure...

moved it into a small town and learned to live on food stamps and what i could scrounge to sell out of dumpsters.

I have mine alright.

I wonder why everyone said "Fuck you, I got mine..." when I could have used a bail out.

[nadinbrzezinski]

53. Take a looksie at pictures of photos of third world favelas and ciudades perdidas

or the hoovervilles of the 1930s

It hasn't gotten that bad

And by the way... thanks for admitting you are that selfish

I read it more as... angry and bitter

And you have reason to... but things can still get far worst

Personally I'd rather avoid that

[cliffordu]

54. I spent some time in the refugee camps in Vietnam in 1970,

I know how exactly how bad it can be.

I'm not bitter....I just want to welcome the power brokers to my world.

I live like a king.

[nadinbrzezinski]

55. Ok... I spent years as an emergency worker in places like

ciudes perdidas... and I don't want to be there... nor wish it ON ANYBODY

[cliffordu]

57. I just want the perpetrators of this theft driven into the streets. I want

all their assets seized......i want the worst of them sent to the general population of a maximum security prison so they can be passed around like so many bad debts.

I want it to get just bad enough that scumbags like these NEVER EVEN DREAM about trying it again.

I want them punished.

[nadinbrzezinski]

59. Free clue, most of these folks will not

that is the reality

Some will, and there are grounds for prosecution... malfeasance and fraud comes to mind... but those take YEARS to build

That is the reality

And a few of these folks, mostly mid level management, will still commit suicide

I like to live in reality

[cliffordu]

62. I don't need a clue from you. I understand that this is going to be business as usual

as soon as they cover their asses.

Don't forget to pay your taxes, Wamu needs the dough. Now that's a clue.

[nadinbrzezinski]

63. You are right nothing changed after 1929

just that small thing called the New Deal

[cliffordu]

65. Conveniently dismantled by the great communicator his own self.

With help from the entire business community. And a few of the subsequent Preznits.

I wonder...Are you suggesting there might be a NEW new deal??

Not as long as the lobbyists and the big business congressional whores are in Washington.

Not as long as multinationals run the show.

Not as long as Big Bid'ness gets bailed out at will.

Business as usual. Unless it all comes down, just like 1929....

[nadinbrzezinski]

69. Why don't you study some history

the Reagan Revolution finished what others started

You know that thing about vigilance and all that

Now WRITE your congress critters... don't complaint to me... and remember to BE VERY SPECIFIC in what you want

(Oh and I will NOT conveniently forget that some of this responsibility is also held by the last Ike Republican in the White House, and that is William Jefferson Clinton... yes... time to wake of from the snooze... but this is the consequences of 25 years of CONSERVATIVE Economic policies

[cliffordu]

75. RE: WJC.....He is why I mentioned other preznits.

Ya gotta big brain, and a nice education. Congrats.

Instead of showing off here, have you made provision for your family, for those you love, in case this IS 1929??


If not, then being right and smarter (??) than everyone else here will do you no good.


If I'm wrong, well, then, I have cheap food all winter, and a great garden next year.

[nadinbrzezinski]

82. I know them damn educamiated people are the enemy

I'll tell you something about the folks back in the 1930s, they got it

They worked together

I don't see that happening here

And you have NO IDEA what I have done to prepare either.

Also I believe the PEOPLE in the country side should be organized beyond the republican ploy of guns, gays and god... and into what matters, that is the WE not the I...

Hope you got a shotgun in your preparations

[cliffordu]

84. Let's just say I'm covered.....

[cliffordu]

89. And one more thing:

I moved to a very small town after 9/11. I have roots here that go back a generation.

All us gun toting ignoramuses are going to be fine.

I can't keep bees or butcher a steer, but my relatives can.

[nadinbrzezinski]

90. I'm happy about you... after all we edjumicated people are the enemy

[cliffordu]

95. You keep saying semi-stupid shit like that. I dunno why.

From the perfume of defensive bullshit redolent in your posts I suspect your edjumication was less thorough than you believe.....You have my condolences.


My criticism was directed at you specifically, not the educated as a whole.


So you go ahead, sparky, and draw phony distinctions between classes all you want to....In the meantime, your self-aggrandizement is charming, if tedious.

[nadinbrzezinski]

96. Coming from you that is an honor

you already told us that you don't care about the rest, since you got yours

You want things to crash damn the consequences since you live like a king

And then you attack me for actually having an education

Sparky look in the fucking mirror

You are a bitter old man

[cliffordu]

100. I find it interesting you picked the things from my posts that fulfill your

preconcieved notions:

No one comes to where I am and enjoys it.

I live like a king because my middle class expectations of life, liberty and pursuit of trinkets....were burned away completely.


Start with the phrase "Everything you know is wrong."

And then relearn what it means to be alive with NOTHING in this society.

Then learn to live within your means: Rebuild, no credit allowed, cash only.

That is what I mean when I say I live like a king. I pay cash for everything. I owe no man or woman one fucking dime.

Bukowski said "If you want to know who your friends are, get a jail sentence..."

I got mine because I don't need much.

Something I'm going to enjoy seeing other people learning to live around.

[nadinbrzezinski]

102. I am sure you are, and preconceived notions? No... your words speak for you

and they speak volumes

Enjoy the rest of your life, as long or short as it may be

I am done with you...

[cliffordu]

104. Buh Bye!!!

:rofl:

Saw your website....

"The gamer as revolutionary..."

[tama]

112. Garden Planet

If you want to be happy for a day, get drunk.
If you want to be happy for three days, get married.
If you want to be happy for a week, slaughter a pig.
If you want to be happy for whole life, become a gardner.

Cheers!

[LiberadorHugo]

56. First, comrade.

I would suggest that you learn the difference between Marx, Lenin, Stalin, Trotsky, and Mao. Then you might have something of substance to say wrt Marxism.

[nadinbrzezinski]

60. You forgot Bakunin, Che and other minor ones

as well as Hobsbawn Kamerad

Now you want to discuss any of this? Or just engage in personal attacks?

[Hardrada]

107. Mikhail Bakunin was an anarchist and split with Marx and Engels

at the First International. The CNT in Spain was greatly influenced by Bakunin's theories.

[nadinbrzezinski]

108. I know that, you know that

but I was surprised he didn't mention him in the overall cast of characters

You must admit though, he could write

[Codeine]

88. You underestimate Nadin

She can take you apart in a debate on most any topic. One of DU's best, she is.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

58. The crash is real. The idea that the politicians can fix it is bullshit.

They are playing CYA with the "bailout" that will have the short (very short) term effect giving the impression of "doing something" while actually worsening the situation.

The idea that "they got us into it, so they can get us out of it" is akin to saying that they robbed us, spent all of our money, are broke themselves, but will pay us back if we give them more of our money to spend.

[nadinbrzezinski]

61. Ah yes, let baby burn.... they did NOTHING in 1929

not guaranteeing that it will work... especially without a lot of systemic change... but if they do nothing I hope you enjoy your pink slip

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

66. What they are "doing" now is making it worse.

Running the country into still more debt is hardly the way to pay off debt. They will do nothing to cut expenses except the tried and failed method of cutting the infrastructure. Get back to me when they significantly cut "defense" spending rather than social security, medicare, education, and all the rest of the things that the people need.

[nadinbrzezinski]

68. They will... for the same HISTORIC reasons they went for the New Deal

but that is ok

Let it burn... let it burn, baby burn....

[Doremus]

64. *Somebody* has the money. Who?

It didn't vaporize. The market is down but not totally kaput.

Offshore accounts? Illiquid assets like mansions, private jets, real estate?

Find it and seize it.

Then we can talk bailout.

[Naturyl]

67. This bailout is a fraud and a disgrace.

This is a complete shameless rip-off. It's an enormous welfare HANDOUT for the rich in a country where we sneer at the idea of welfare for people who actually need it. Complete SCAM and racket. Privatize the gains, socialize the losses. Tony Soprano never had it so good. As Kucinich implored us, "Wake up, America!" This is a blatant fraud. We are being asked to fund the greed of the yacht class.

[nadinbrzezinski]

70. You truly believe that Paulson's proposals will go into effect unchanged?

Okie dokie, and what part of the glorious revolution are you intending to be part off?

[Naturyl]

72. Huh?

I made myself clear. I don't want them getting SHIT.

If that means a "glorious revolution," whatever you mean by that, so be it.

[nadinbrzezinski]

73. So you are leading it?

don;t be coy, that is what some here want, never mind many will STARVE

or die from cold, or other means... like bullets, torture and other wonders of modern warfare

[Naturyl]

76. Many ALREADY DO.

Homeless starve and die of exposure regularly in this country, but you want me to support a $750 billion welfare check HANDOUT for the rich out of fear? As for bullets and torture... most of these dirt bags you want to bail out are in the social class that overwhelmingly support those who started and continued the war.

Not a chance.

[nadinbrzezinski]

77. Yes right now you are talking of thousands

you have no clue what a glorious revolution will do...

I do... seen them with my own eyes

By the way WHY DON'T YOU READ and chiefly UNDERSTAND the breaks that are coming into place?

Oh and DON'T COMPLAINT TO ME

WRITE CONGRESS... CALL CONGRESS, BE SPECIFIC

But if you want me to support the glorious revolution, SORRY... there is no glory or honor in war... nor are they civil

[Naturyl]

78. You're not making any sense. (n/t)

[nadinbrzezinski]

79. Let me translate this for you

if the economy crashes you are talking of millions who will stave, and die in the first two years, best case scenario

If we have a civil war... we are talking of even more millions dying in the front lines and trillions destroyed

Most of all, what you think will come out of that is not exactly what will come out

Here is more, the Dems are right now putting breaks on the free check

They'll ONLY resist any pressures to change minds if you and ME pressure them to resist... perhaps

But one thing is clear.. I am all for TRYING to hold this together long enough to bring in the REFORMS that will come... nature of the beast

You are not... so let it burn, baby burn... and damn the consequences

[Naturyl]

80. Fine with me.

That's what it took to get the New Deal in the 30's and maybe that's what it's gonna take now.

Clifford's comments in this thread speak for me.

[nadinbrzezinski]

81. So we had a civil war in the 30s? Whoa nelly I forgot that part of the story

So you are leading it?

Don't be coy...

And his comments come down to I got mine, screw you

[Naturyl]

87. Why do you keep asking this?

No, I'm not leading anything.

Done now?

[nadinbrzezinski]

91. At least are you calling Congress? Or you are just bitching on a message

board?

[Naturyl]

109. Just bitching on a message board.

Calling congress is pretty pointless, since they don't give a fraction of a damn what I think.

Are you one of those who thinks calling Congress actually accomplishes something?

EDIT: I did write to my representatives this morning. But will it do anything? Doubtful.

[tama]

113. This is not 1929

This is much much worse - from the viewpoint of human civilization. This is the generation of the civilized yeast that covers half of the petri dish, the point of not enough sugar to keep up the exponential growth. Really basic stuff, physics, biology, conscience etc., ya know.

The real irony is that Mama Earth is still bountifull and mercifull, despite all the raping you civilized people have done to Mama and still insist on continuing. The great irony is that there still would be enough fertile land to support even couple billions more of us, if we all lived modestly and humbly, gardening a small plot with great care and love, enjoying the blessings of Mama and company of good friends.

But no, humble and modest is not your way of life, wich is the civilized way, the greedy way, the insatiable way. So when your precioss civilization burns down and you with it, who do you blame, oh Arrogant One? Those that are humble and modest and in need of more civilizing?

[KakistocracyHater]

71. street fighters will hardly help, endless detention took it

New Deal v2.0

[nadinbrzezinski]

74. Study some history... and what it took back then

problem is I fear people are way too chicken to do that

[KakistocracyHater]

83. I am referring to leaders

not the workers. I know women were marching in the streets for voting feisen/ius/rights-did you see Seattle? Did you notice the change in our culture, how we don't generally look kindly to riots nor rioters? They have worked since the 70s to poison the paths that once worked. We need new avenues.

[nadinbrzezinski]

92. I saw seattle, hell even talked to people who were part of it

perhaps you should know that Seattle was not unlike any labor action in the 1920s

And more than that... it took more than just a year or two to get results for the labor movement

But it took boots on the pavement, and cracked skulls and dead people

Damn, people really don't know history...

As to leaders... we have none, we are mostly a nation of cowards

Now go to the movies and buy yourself a ticket to Death Race... the first five minutes are the 1920s and early 30s ... with modern equipment

[KakistocracyHater]

110. wtf?! Mr Deeds Goes to Town 1936

what makes you fell I don't know history????? So you MUST have SEEN the mass arrests at rnc convention & HOW they ignored any threats to Dems?! go Cheney yourself_why because I've read history books I've seen films.

People marching in the streets did not stop the invasion of Iraq, did not stop the anti-birth control movement. Watch The Best Year of Our Lives 1946 to see the difference in Hollywood & what they did back then http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0036868/ Try watching films by Fritz Lang like the Testament of DR Mabuse http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0023563/ maybe you maight have heard of these? Gary Cooper awesome Depression-era film**PIXELATED** http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0027996/

[dysfunctional press]

98. "too big too fail" should NEVER again be an issue or part of the lexicon.

once a company passes a certain threshold(to be determined and set by those more knowledged than i) asset or earnings-wise- it must divest or be broken up.

[nadinbrzezinski]

99. And the law is in the books

Sherman Anti Trust Act

Here is an action page for you

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=4055714&mesg_id=4055714

[johnaries]

101. Actually, "letting it crash" is the logical Libertarian/Randian view.

As well as the neo-Conservative view. At least, that's what they sold us. They keep saying that the Free Market should be government "hands-off" and that the Market will fix itself. NO government oversight, NO government intervention. Laissez-faire. Never mind that it's never worked, and didn't work this time... give it another chance and I sear it will work NEXT time!

Meanwhile, we'll all be living in Hoovervilles.

Ya know, I'm really tempted to call their bluff, and let the market fail like it did in 1929. The only problem is that the innocents will hurt the most.

We need another FDR. We need Barack Obama.

[nadinbrzezinski]

103. Yeah it is the innocents that I worry about

as is, it will still be tough

[johnaries]

105. The innocents are always the ones who suffer in "Grand Designs".

Which is why Democracy was born, in the first place.

[nadinbrzezinski]

106. Yep... so correct, and why the followers of the new faith of

economic armageddon truly scare me. They truly don't understand how this will affect them.. or chiefly those they are trying to protect

[readmoreoften]

111. No. It's not the "neoconservative view." They don't believe in non-intervention.

They believe in corporations ruling the government and then using this pseudo-government to intervene in their favor. The neocons know--unlike the libertarians-- that the idea of the state cannot be minimized or done away with because then working people will create one or rise up against them. So instead they own the government so it can't be replaced and simultaneously use it to destroy everything but corporate rule.

Since Pinochet the neocon policy has been 'a dictatorship of the elite' is a necessary evil so that democracy will be possible 'someday.' They take the government and use it in order to destroy the name of government.

[nolabels]

114. Yea, let it fall

You seem to think if we bail them out things will be okay for while but that is not true. Things already are bad for many and it will get worse no matter what they do. Even if you put a large piece of gauze over a gunshot wound you might get it to stop bleeding from the outside but that internal part is still an unknown. The people who did this must be held accountable and be held to reckon for the repairs. They are not doing that, they are saying just like gangsters, give us money or we make worse for you.

We all must learn to show restraint, we are the larger force and if we all finally stick together and find it fair as we can get then we should give approval. The swindlers and moneycrats, at the snap of a finger, want us to refund the Wall Street casino they have pilfered. It's a bad idea to loan any money without stringent conditions, but loaning the entire U.S.Treasury because they say they are good for it is just a bad idea all around :shrug: