There's no negotiating with nazis/fascists. It is time for revolution.

[behave]

A democratically principled revolution.

[mikehiggins]

1. No such thing

Revolution is revolution, nothing democratic about it.

The VAST majority of Americans are more or less pleased with how their lives are playing out. They may be disgruntled over one issue or another but generally speaking they do NOT beleive there is any systemic failure in their society. Thus a revolution would have to be initiated by an elitist crowd of people who "know better" than the rest how things should be done.

Given the choice, how many folks would choose "revolution" and how many would opt to see how it all plays out in the end? I suspect the overwhelmingly vast majority would opt for door 2 which would make the "revolutionists" just another crowd of folks (and a very, very small one at that) who think THEY know better what is good for the rest of us, just like the guys we oppose.

What was it the Beatles said about Revolution? Go listen.

OH, and edited to add---This is not nearly a fascist state, and most certainly not a proto-NAZI state, and never really likely to become one.

And don't forget; the people who are doing the things we don't like are going to die (some sooner than others) and their actions and ideas will likely die with them. Just a reminder from a guy much closer to the end than the beginning. As I age my optimism for this country's future just grows and grows. Go figure.

[Name removed]

2. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[jberryhill]

8. Okay, go off and be revolting already

We'll watch.

[Name removed]

9. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[jberryhill]

11. I've been wondering where my gerbil went...

Hey big man, who wrote this:

We do agree that it
would be best if you remained on the sidelines

[Richard Steele]

Gerbil? As insults go,that's a bit of a giveaway. Not a Democratic one.

It's the moranic FReeptards who dream of running amok with guns;
us liberals prefer solutions that HELP ordinary people.

And few Democrats consider "gay" to be an insult, let alone
believe that ridiculous, grade-school-mentality "gerbil" story
from 25 years ago.

You seem to be 0 for 3, friend. Bye bye now. :hi:

[behave]

16. Gay is it? How's it gay? And, what the fuck is "moranic"? You mean as in moran?!!!

You were trying to spell moronic, weren't you?

[jberryhill]

20. RimJob called...

...and asked if you'd take the signs back to freeperville on your way out.

[Richard Steele]

22. Someone clue this idjit in QUICK, before he's tombstoned. I just don't have the heart for it.

Dick Steele don't shoot sitting ducks.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

15. Yeah, but he was obviously right.

You DO think you know better than everybody else.

[seemslikeadream]

4. This is not nearly a fascist state, and most certainly not a proto-NAZI state,

When this person



is even close to being the president, yes we are close very close. And when these bastards, the real terrorists

http://www.newsweek.com/id/159439

get away with what they have done, yes we are close very very close, so close I can smell the stench of burning flesh

[cliffordu]

5. You forgot your sarcasm tags.

[wtmusic]

73. "Their ideas and actions will likely die with them"

Like the idea of manipulating democracy for profit? Nah, that one still has a few good millenia left.

:rofl:

[behave]

3. kick

[DaveT]

6. I agree in part

I agree in part with Mikehiggins that very few people see any immediate need for disrupting their daily lives with revolutionary activity -- or even plain vanilla politics. This does not mean that people are necessarily "pleased" with how their lives are going.

I also agree in part with his formulation that revolutionary sentiment cannot reasonably be called "democratic" when the majority has no intention of revolting.

But I strongly disagree with the optimism that he expresses. And I absolutely condemn the complacency that he expresses with respect to the element of fascism that under girds the neoconservative project. Here is what I had to say about this four years ago:

http://www.upsizethis.org/forum/index.php?showtopic=12746

For people living in Germany, there never was a point where either the aspiring Nazi Party or the governing Nazi Reich ever announced:

"We are nihilistic madmen who will start unprovoked wars against Poland, France, Belgium, Holland, Norway, Yugoslavia, Great Britain, Greece, the USSR and the USA -- and try to conquer all those societies at once. We will attack the cities of our enemies from the air in an effort to destroy their civilization, so that we can take over and demand fealty from everybody on the planet. We will hunt down and slaughter all the Jews and Gypsies in Europe, because we think the world will be a better place after they are gone.

"We know that our wars of aggression and our systematic genocide will induce the most profound anger the world has ever seen, and millions of our people will be killed in this regime of Total War. There is a chance that we will lose this war, as we will be significantly outnumbered by our enemies. If we lose, our country will be occupied by foreigners who will define our future for us.

"Nevertheless we have a vision for the future of our Folk -- and our destiny is to rule the world as we are the best people on earth."


History shows that thousands of people, particularly German Jews, foresaw parts or all of this fate in advance. But millions of Germans, and millions of people the world over, did not believe that Hitler would really be as bad as all that. In hindsight, it is easy for us to say that everybody should have realized that the man was a psychopathic lunatic. But for those that figured it out ahead of time, they must have had a Nazi Moment -- the last straw that confirmed that Hitler really meant to bring death and destruction to the entire world.

I have often wondered about That Nazi Moment -- what it would be like to be a student in Munich or Dresden or Berlin in 1933 or 34 or 36 or 38? You could choose to believe that the authoritarian measures of the Reich were unfortunate but beyond your control. You could regard the harassment of Jews to be unfortunate but beyond your control. You could regard the bizarre symbolism and mass hysteria of the Nazi movement as unfortunate but beyond your control. You have your own life to lead in any event. By seeing the future accurately, as some did, you pretty much condemned yourself to death or exile.

In 2004, you really can't know for sure what the Bush Administration is capable of doing. But here are the pieces of a puzzle that could match anything that Hitler did:

1. Ideology. The Project for a New American Century contends that the USA has determined the correct political structure for all societies -- secular democracy with free markets. It is now the official National Security Policy of the United States to use our military to coerce other countries to adopt this "single model" of national development.

2. War. The incumbent President has responded to the crimes of September 11 by declaring war against all "evil." This preposterous formulation carries no limiting context, no practical guide to discriminating more evil from less evil or evil from the merely awful. In practice, this purposefully vague theory of fighting evil has been used to link a war against Afghanistan (which was partially responsible for the September 11 attacks) to a war against Iraq (which had nothing to do with September 11) on the grounds that Iraq was run by the sort of people who would commit further acts of terrorism if they had the chance. Tens of millions of Americans support George W. Bush's war against Iraq for precisely this reason. Obviously, this rationale for war is infinitely elastic.

3. Power. The current government now claims the right to designate any American citizen an "enemy combatant" with no means of questioning the designation. Anybody so designated is thereby stripped of citizenship, and all constitutional rights. No courts, no lawyers, no press, no calls to friends -- just, poof -- you are now an un-person. Meanwhile, the current government contends that its troops in the field are answerable to no law other than that of the military command structure.

4. Prisons. The current government has already built a chain of detention centers around the world that are shrouded in secrecy and where physical coercion is at the sole discretion of the jailers. The information age has made it impossible to keep all of the details of these installations secret -- bizarre sexual rituals and systematic degradation are the tools of choice in trying to coerce detainees to give up information about other targets of the infinite war on terror.

5. Dishonesty. Here is where it gets frightening. The only limit on any of these four elements of infinite control is the conscience of the government. They start from the premise that they are fighting evil, and therefore they define themselves as good. All abuse and any mistakes they make are always cast in contrast to the Evil of Osama bin Laden or Saddam Hussein -- we may put underwear on your head, but they will cut your head off. If you go further and challenge their motivations directly, they declare you a supporter of the terrorists. These cheap rhetorical games are bad enough, and ought to scare anybody with half a brain to death. But when you realize that these are all serial liars who never tell the same story twice, you realize that what deep shit we are in when they say, "Trust us."

Well.

At least they're not Hitler. At least they're not gassing Jews. At least they're not killing their political opponents.

Look up and down the various forums at DU, and ask yourself how many threads reference elements of naked power blowing away the rule of law?

This weekend, with the Congress now considering the merger of the Federal Government with Wall Street, I am wondering what will left to be said if our party caves in yet again. . . .



Over the years, I have encountered a wide variety of people who object to this comparison to Nazi Germany or to fascism in general and point to the obvious differences between gas chambers and Abu Graib; between absolute totalitarian control and the Patriot Act; between the Gestapo and Guantanamo Bay.

And of course, there is a huge difference in degree between Nazism and Bushism.

My questions remain --

1. Don't you see that the difference is one of degree and not of kind?

2. What makes you think that the degree of difference will shrink rather than converge?


"We want our revolution now."


Well, John Lennon is dead, but so is Jim Morrison. Who knows for sure?

[Uncle Sinister]

7. Excellent post, DaveT, but I'd call it Corporatism rather than Bushism

and the truly terrifying thing is how many dem politicians support the regime.

[donco6]

10. No such thing as a "democratically principled" revolution.

How does that work exactly?

[jberryhill]

12. It apparently works by insulting people on an internet message forum /nt

[Richard Steele]

17. People....AND their gerbils, apparently.

When was the last time you saw a personal insult
that so clearly showed the REAL mindset of it's
FReepish, shit-stirring author?

I swear, if some of these trolls put half as much effort
into BEING smart as they do in ACTING smart, they
might actually be smart.

Of course, if they ever did that, then they wouldn't be
trolls anymore, would they? :shrug:

[jberryhill]

23. He's not doing a very good job...

...notice the slip up below re: "your fellow democrats".

Doh!

They think we're all violent communist revolutionaries or something.

Really bizarre.

[Richard Steele]

26. Yup. This one is CLEARLY not the sharpest stick in the fagot.

That "whooshing sound" you hear is this post's headline
going over his head.

[jberryhill]

27. LOL /nt

[behave]

13. You're wrong... the French Revolution gave the world the Declaration of Rights...

...a fine democratically principled document. The
American Revolution gave the world The Constitution,
another almost perfect expression of democratic prin-
ciples. I'm confident that real democrats, should they
choose revolution, will deliver yet an even better
set of democratically principled guidelines for
themselves and future generations.

As for the methods that will allow us to deliver these democratic principles, I see no reason why we can't be democratically principled in that. Do you? Or do you not trust your fellow democrats?

[donco6]

14. Well, that came about EVENTUALLY.

But the revolution itself was hardly democratic. Executing the aristocracy, largely without any sort of trial, at the hands of mobs with torches - sorry, I don't want any part of it.

Democrats I trust; unruly mobs - not so much.

[jberryhill]

18. Didja notice "your fellow democrats" in there

Pepperoni or plain?

[Name removed]

19. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[jberryhill]

21. Well you run right out there and have yourself a fine revolution...

Who is stopping you?

[behave]

24. Will do. Got nothing, huh?

[jberryhill]

25. No, sorry, go elsewhere for your handout

So the point was that you think DU is populated by a bunch of wild-eyed revolutionaries waiting for your battle call?

Do post after your revolution and let us all know how it worked out for you.

[behave]

28. No. Tell me what you've got. What's your plan?

[elshiva]

29. My plan is to wait for your pizza, hon.

I'll just eat my popcorn as I wait, okay, hon? Thanks.

:popcorn:

[Name removed]

30. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Richard Steele]

33. Not so much a "plan" as an "anticipation of an eventuality".

nm

[elshiva]

Yes. Thank you, dicksteele.

:popcorn:

[Richard Steele]

44. Is your chair wide enough to seat two?

:popcorn::popcorn:

[elshiva]

59. No, but I can get another chair for you.

:popcorn: :popcorn: :hug:

[KitchenWitch]

36. Last I checked, elshiva is a member here in good standing and can post wherever elshiva wants

Don't like it? Put elshiva on ignore.

[elshiva]

41. OH NOES!

I am on ignore! Oh, the humanity!

:popcorn:

[KitchenWitch]

43. Come here, I will hold you and make the bad feelings go away!

:pals:

[elshiva]

46. At least I am not on your ignore list, KitchenWitch.

:hug: :hug: :pals:

[elshiva]

38. Hey, you

Get off of my cloud? Okay?

:popcorn:

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

40. Let's hear yours with some details.

[jberryhill]

54. I've got a bowl of chocolate covered cranberries

And my plan is to eat several of them, and then give the bowl to my wife.

[elshiva]

56. May I please have some of your cranberries?

Please? :)

[jberryhill]

57. Actually...

It's the chocolate that's bothering me. I've lost some weight recently, and want to lose some more.

You'll have to get the bowl back from my wife, but if you eat the chocolate off and then give me the cranberries, we can probably work out a deal.

Oh, and Viva La Revolucion, or whatever.

[elshiva]

58. Yes, I'll eat the chocolate part and you can have the

cranberries. Do you like popcorn? :popcorn:

Viva behave's violent troll revolution.

[jberryhill]

60. I think I've seen this movie before, though

But I don't want to spoil the ending.

[elshiva]

Have you seen this one?

[Occulus]

37. How about getting them put into the general population of a supermax prison instead?

I could live with that. Easily.

[Posteritatis]

66. It also gave the world the term "Reign of Terror"

which was imperfectly democratic or principled. Also that Bonaparte guy, and his rather less pleasant predecessors.

The French Revolution was an extremely ugly thing that took decades to finish really calming down. The end result may have been a good thing for France, but the process involved oceans of blood, shattered entire countries, and was not always especially careful about who got caught underfoot.

[SidneyCarton]

71. Yeah, and it also gave us massacres in Lyon, Marseilles and Nantes

Go and google the "Nantes Tribunal" and "Republican Marriages" The French Revolution was a double-edged sword that ate its children.

[enigmatic]

31. Can't we just PsyOps them w/ Avril Lagvine songs instead?

[Richard Steele]

34. Nope. Us Liberals still respect the Geneva Conventions, so Avril Lavigne is right out. nm

[Name removed]

32. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[KitchenWitch]

35. Dude, you made my buddy list!

:applause:

[uppityperson]

63. Is your buddy list like my buddy list?

A few friends and several people to keep an eye on?

[KitchenWitch]

67. exactly!

[Douglas Carpenter]

39. Revolutions, like wars have a terrible tendency to not go according to plan

There is no more guarantee that democratic-socialism will replace the current capitalist model than that an extreme right-wing order, perhaps even something resembling fascism, could just as likely replace it. In fact I would have to say, much more likely.

Especially if the worse results of the collapse occurs with a Democrat in the White House and the Democrats controlling both houses of Congress.

After decades of right-wing indoctrination, much of the public are just as likely (or even more likely) to blame, the "liberal elites", the "pointed headed intellectuals", the "liberal media", the "liberal-humanist educational system", the immigrants, the Arabs, and other "undesirables" as they are to see it in the context of the class struggle.

It is always just as bad an idea to hope for bad times as it is to wish for war. It will be ordinary working people and the world's least fortunate who will suffer most from a collapse of the current order, just as it is ordinary working people and the world's least fortunate who suffer most from war.

[KitchenWitch]

42. A sane and logical response to utter delusion

Now, knock that off.

:rofl:

[4 t 4]

47. Mikehiggins..............

who are you talking to, I wish I was them

[elshiva]

45. Yes. This is true.

Great post. :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

[AntiFascist]

70. See World War II...

the financiers and sponsors of Hitler were fervent anti-communists. They feared that more and more people would turn to Marxism in the wake of the Great Depression. As an alternative, they invented National Socialism with a focus on German patriotism, thus the Nazi Party was born (the National Socialist German Workers' Party). With the rise of Nazi militarism, this morphed into "fascism" as a third way between capitalism and Marxism.

When it became clear that Hitler had gone too far, America then began investing in its own military machine, with the entire nation acting together united in a singular cause without the usual capitalistic incentives.

Eventhough the Russians (together with the US) ultimately defeated Hitler, war profiteers made millions and of course capitalism survived and dominated, at least west of Berlin. FDR may have rescued America with his socialistic programs, but it was war that helped to foster the tycoons.

[Richard Steele]

48. Well, the first "message deleted" just showed up, so this thread is not long for this world.

DU mods kick ass, and I'm off to bed.

[KitchenWitch]

49. g'night dick!

:pals:

[Richard Steele]

51. G'night KW! *reciprocal hugs* nm

[4 t 4]

50. MikeHiggins

Where are you ?

[elshiva]

52. I don't know where he is, but it was a good post.

:hi:

[4 t 4]

53. The vast majority of Americans are happy

with how their lives are playing out. How high are you ? What Americans are you talking to ? Not the same one's as me.

[elshiva]

55. Who are you talking to? Mikehiggins?

[Douglas Carpenter]

65. actually that is not even remotely true. quite the contrary

All polling indicates that the majority of Americans are very unhappy with the economy and their personal economic situation and deeply pessimistic about the future.

Here is just two polls. But they all say essentially the same thing - without exception.

http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/436939/poll_americans_pessimistic_about_the.html?cat=47

http://www.miamiherald.com/news/politics/AP/story/692280.html

Furthermore, a simple conversation with mainstream Americans from any walk all life will very quickly reveal this profound unhappiness with their economic situation and their deep pessimism about the future.

Still there certainly is no desire for revolution either. To fantasize that there is - is simply delusional. Almost all mainstream Americans would consider such talk nothing short of BATSHIT CRAZY!! :crazy:

[tavalon]

61. Careful. We can't directly advocate for revolution.

Edited to add: It is interesting that there is so much conversation on this thread, though. Quite interesting, actually.

[LeftyMom]

62. That doesn't even make sense.

A revolution may be broad-based, but it can't be democratic, as you can't hold valid elections without already being in control.

[uppityperson]

64. Just for curiousities sake, what is a "democratically principled revolution" anyway?

Seems a bit of a contradiction, not sure what you mean

[mokawanis]

68. Ya say ya want a revolution?

We'd all love to hear the plan, perhaps something a little more detailed than "I want a revolution".

[Sebastian Doyle]

69. I'm sure the Freep is gone now, but for his entertainment.....

...it's Lemmiwinks!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dcR3ZFlMYNQ

DISCLAIMER: It's a fucking cartoon. No actual gerbils or gay men's asses were harmed in the making of this video.

[Midlodemocrat]

72. Good luck with that.

:thumbsup:

:eyes:

[CLG_News]

74. See this thread:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=4056575&mesg_id=4056575