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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-21-08 07:17 PM
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A Few Words on Wealth Redistribution
Perhaps more than any other developed country in the world today, the United States of America has long harbored an antipathy towards so called “wealth redistribution” from the wealthy to the poor.

That attitude was largely responsible for our nearly half a century Cold War against Communism. The United States spent trillions of dollars on that war, very little of which actually went to defend our country. Rather, the money was spent mostly on building up our military far beyond our needs, and the overthrow of leftist governments throughout the world (Iran, Chile, Guatemala, Argentina, Cambodia, Laos, South Vietnam, Indonesia, the Congo, and so many others), most or all of which we replaced with right wing governments that were far worse for the people they represented than the governments that they replaced. We did this with the excuse that we were trying to spread freedom and democracy and help those countries throw off the yolk of Communism.

Nevertheless, we went through a period beginning in 1933 with the presidency of Franklin Delano Roosevelt, and ending in 1980, in which it was generally recognized by most Americans that ensuring the opportunity for “life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness” for all of its citizenry is a legitimate function of government. But with the election of Ronald Reagan in 1980, the era of “small government” and trickle down economics arrived in this country, with the consequent continuous dismantling of FDR’s New Deal, and along with it, the end of the greatest sustained economic boom in American history.

So here we are today, following 38 years of right wing “progress”, with the largest degree of wealth inequality in our history. And following 38 years of what many would call the transfer of wealth from the poor and the middle class to the wealthy, the worst and most corrupt President in the history of our nation is proposing that every citizen of our country contribute to the bailout of the U.S. banking system – perhaps the largest redistribution of wealth from the poor and the middle class to the wealthy in our history.


What is redistribution of wealth?

In order to assess re-distribution of wealth, one first has to have an idea of where and how wealth originates. Ultimately, wealth is the resources that humans need and want. Food is grown by farmers. Minerals are mined by miners. Other things that we need or want are manufactured by laborers. Those who produce these things exchange them for $$$, which though it has no intrinsic worth, in our system is the primary indicator of wealth, since it can be used to buy virtually anything. But farmers, miners, and other laborers generally are considerably less wealthy than so many other people in our country. Thus, a superficial assessment of our economy would suggest that wealth is primarily transferred from them (i.e. the poor and the middle class) to the wealthy, who rarely directly produce anything. Why then do people generally think of wealth as being transferred from the rich to the poor?

Of course, our economy is much more complicated than that. There are many types of intellectual activity, which involve little or no physical labor, which do in fact improve peoples’ quality of life in one way or another, and therefore deserve to be highly compensated. I myself obtain money almost solely through intellectual activity, requiring virtually no physical labor, so I certainly don’t mean to disparage that kind of work. But when wealth disparity is as extreme as it is in our country today, with the top 1% of our population owning 38 times the wealth as the bottom 40% of our population combined; with 12.6% of Americans living in poverty; and given the fact that the vast majority of Americans who live in poverty are laborers or people who can’t find work, or the children of those people… I think that we should wonder about how fair our economic system really is.

So, how is wealth re-distributed in the United States? Is it more from the rich to the poor or from the poor to the rich? Obviously, that is an extremely complex question. Wealth is distributed in accordance with a vastly complex system of federal, state and local laws, which include tax laws, government programs and subsidies, contract laws, banking and credit laws, etc. It would require many volumes of books to even attempt to accurately answer that question, and still it would be unlikely that much consensus of opinion could be obtained on the subject. So I won’t even attempt to answer that question here.

But I do have a couple of observations on the subject that lead me to the opinion that most wealth distribution goes from poor to rich rather than the other way around. The first is that it is extremely difficult for me to fathom, for example, how the average CEO earns 431 the income of the average worker in his company. And secondly, we all know that the wealthy and the corporations that they represent exert a highly disproportionate influence on our political process. Does anyone believe that corporations spend their billions of dollars in lobbying costs to propose legislation that redistributes income from the rich to the poor?

Beyond that, perhaps consideration of some historical and current day examples of what appears to me to be distribution of wealth from poor to rich would be revealing:


SOME EXAMPLES OF WEALTH TRANSFER FROM THE POOR TO THE WEALTHY

Slavery in the United States

Perhaps the most obvious example is slavery. The slaves supplied the labor, and the plantation owners reaped all the benefits. In retrospect it seems so clear. Yet one would be hard pressed to find a slave owner who believed that slavery was a system for the distribution of wealth from the poor to the wealthy – or one who would admit to it. Noam Chomsky explains the psychology of this phenomenon in his book, “What we Say Goes”:

When you conquer somebody and suppress them, you have to have a reason. You can’t just say, “I’m a son of a bitch and I want to rob them.” You have to say it’s for their good, they deserve it, or they actually benefit from it. We’re helping them. That was the attitude of slave owners. Most of them didn’t say, “Look, I’m enslaving these people because I want easily exploitable, cheap labor for my own benefit.” They said, “We’re doing them a favor. They need it.”


The bailout of Wall Street by the U.S. government

This issue is much more complex and difficult to assess than slavery. We currently have our economic titans, such as U.S. Treasury Secretary Henry Paulson, saying that a bailout of Wall Street is absolutely necessary at this time. I watched Paulson explain his reasoning on Meet the Press this morning. Beyond a bunch of economic jargon, Paulson said that it was “unthinkable” that the U.S. government not bailout Wall Street. Well, if it’s “unthinkable”, I guess that means that there’s no point in thinking about it – which is clearly what Paulson meant to convey.

Since I am not an economist, I certainly am not in a position to dispute the opinion of our Treasury Secretary with technical intelligent argument. But that shouldn’t stop me from being highly suspicious of his ideas.

Asked about the cost of the bailout, Paulson denied that the true cost would be what many are estimating as $700 billion. He explained that the U.S. government is not simply putting out taxpayer money, but rather we are getting something substantial in return. Oh really? Then why isn’t anyone from the private sector willing to buy these failing banks?

And what happened to the right wing ideology that despises socialism and believes that the “free market” should handle everything without government interference? Why not let the “free market” take care of this? Why is socialism suddenly acceptable to our radical right wing government when it involves socializing the risks of the wealthy, to be paid for by the poor and the middle class?

And isn’t it funny that the people who are being saved, including the investors in and managers of these banks, are generally much more prosperous than the average American taxpayer. Whenever someone proposes something like a national health care program to ensure that all Americans get the health care that they need, they’re intensively questioned by our corporate news media as to where we will find the money for it. But now we’re told by the U.S. Treasury Secretary simply that it’s “unthinkable” not to bail out these banks. In other words, it’s “unthinkable” that banks and their investors will lose a heap of money, but it’s not unthinkable that 43 million Americans lack any health insurance whatsoever. Why is that?

This sounds to me like a massive transfer of wealth from the poor and the middle class to the wealthy.


The privatization of water in Bolivia

Antonia Juhasz, in her book, “http://www.google.com/search%3Fhl%3Den%26q%3Dthe%2Bbush%2Bagenda%2Bjuhasz%26btnG%3DSearch&sa=X&oi=print&ct=title&cad=one-book-with-thumbnail">The Bush Agenda – Invading the World One Economy at a Time”, describes many instances of how force and violence are used by third world governments, with the support of the United States or international institutions largely controlled by the United States, to protect corporate interests. One of her examples involved the privatization of water in Bolivia:

Cochabamba is the 3rd largest city in Bolivia… In late 1999, the World Bank required that Bolivia privatize Cochabamba’s water in return for reduction of its debts. Bechtel – one of the top ten water privatization companies in the world – won the contract.

Immediately after Bechtel took over the Cochabamba water system, and before any of the promised investments in infrastructure were made to improve or expand services, the company raised the price of water… by 100%... Many were simply forced to do without running water… The same law that privatized the water system also privatized any collected water, including rainwater collected in barrels…

The majority of the people voted for the cancellation of the contract with Bechtel. When this demand was met with silence from government officials, the citizens went on a citywide strike… the Bolivian government defended Bechtel’s right to privatize by sending armed military troops into the streets to disperse the crowds. At least one 17-year-old boy was shot and killed and hundreds more were injured…

Does that constitute wealth transfer from the rich to the poor?


“Trade liberalization” in Iraq

Juhasz also discusses in her book the economic plans imposed by the Bush administration upon Iraq following our invasion of their country in 2003. One of the first actions of L. Paul Bremer, the administrator of the Coalition Provisional Authority, was to impose his “Trade Liberalization Policy” upon Iraq, which immediately suspended tariffs, subsidies, and other measures designed to protect the Iraqi economy and people, thus devastating local industries and businesses. Juhasz describes Bremer’s thinking on the issue:

In a November 2001 paper entitled “New Risks in International Business,” Bremer outlined the risks to multinational corporations associated with the implementation of corporate globalization policies. Every policy Bremer describes in this paper was among those he himself implemented in Iraq a year and a half later. Bremer walks through the devastating impacts of each policy on the local population – the same impacts that his policies would inflict on Iraq. Bremer warns companies that “the painful consequences of globalization are felt long before its benefits are clear” (translation: long before the corporate profits have time to trickle down to the local population). Bremer cites several specific globalization policies, such as privatization of state enterprises, deregulation of controlled industries, and reductions of tariffs and nontariff barriers to open up trade in goods and services. In the paper, Bremer explains that “privatization of basic services, for example, almost always leads to price increases for those services, which in turn often lead to protests or even physical violence against the operator.” As for economic equality, Bremer says, “the process of globalization has a disparate impact on incomes,”
which in turn causes “political and social tensions.” The harmful impact… on local producers causes “enormous pressure on… trade monopolies” when “opening markets to foreign trade…

Bremer was therefore well aware that his policies would, at a minimum, reduce access to basic services and support for local businesses in favor of foreign businesses. He also knew the policies would increase inequality and political and social tension. However, he believed that he knew how to protect U.S. multinationals from the impact of these policies and therefore the policies went forward, ever clear on who the intended beneficiaries were…

Another example of wealth re-distribution?


Oil pipeline in Ecuador

John Perkins, in “The Secret History of the American Empire - Economic Hit Men, Jackals, and the Truth”, talks about the destruction of vast areas of Ecuador’s rain forests, the transformation of rivers into cesspools, and the disappearance of several animal species in Ecuador as the result of a $1.3 billion oil pipeline constructed there. He notes that for every $100 of oil taken from the Amazon forests, $75 goes to the oil companies, $18 goes to pay off the debt, and only $3 goes to the people who need the money the most. Since 1968, the nation’s debt grew from a quarter billion dollars to $16 billion, poverty level grew from 50% to 70%, and under- or unemployment grew from 15% to 70%.

In 2003, Perkins came back to Ecuador to try to prevent a war that he held himself partially responsible for provoking. This would be a war fought against indigenous Ecuadorians by the Ecuadorian Army assisted by U.S. Special Forces advisors, on behalf of oil companies who accused an indigenous community of taking its workers hostage, as an excuse for war. Lawyers who represented the indigenous community in an effort to get the oil companies off their land had recently died in a plane crash.


Deregulation in the United States

Since the onset of the Progressive Era in the United States, numerous federal and state statutes have been enacted and institutions developed to protect the citizens of our country against corporate abuse. These have included: laws for the protection of labor; the Food and Drug Administration to ensure the safety of our foods and drugs; the Consumer Product Safety Commission to ensure the safety of other consumer products; anti-trust laws to ensure fair competition; the Communications Act of 1934 to ensure fair access for our citizens to radio communications; the Security and Exchange Commission to ensure the fairness of a wide variety of economic transactions; and many many more.

Most Americans have traditionally seen these statutes and institutions as a necessary means for government to protect the vulnerable (that is, just about all of us) against the powerful. I like what Chris Weigant recently had to say about the need for government regulation, so I’ll repeat an excerpt from his post here:

Does everyone know how to play basketball? Good! You see, basketball is a game that has certain rules. Players have to follow the rules, or else there's a penalty. Now imagine playing a die-hard game of basketball without any rules or penalties. You know what happens if you play basketball -- or any sport, really -- without any rules? Somebody usually winds up getting hurt. That's why we have the rules in the first place -- to allow for hard play but not dangerous play. And to keep the game fair for everyone.

What is happening now on Wall Street is the result of basic Republican dogma, which is to "deregulate" everything in sight. Now, the word "deregulate" is just a fancy way of saying "playing without rules." Regulations are the rules which governments lay down for businesses to follow. These rules are there for a reason -- to avoid injury, and to keep the game fair for everyone. But the Republican way of thinking has always been to just throw out the rulebook. That's right -- just chuck it out!

Right wing Republicans have always been very hostile to corporate regulation because they see that as an infringement upon the freedom of the wealthy to make unlimited profits. Especially with the onset of the “Reagan Revolution” in 1981, the right wing view that these programs constitute “big government” and impinge upon the “free market” began to gain traction, and consequently we have seen a gradual but almost continuous wave of deregulation since then. One major consequence of that deregulation was the Savings and Loan scandal and bailout of the late 1980s, which cost U.S. taxpayers several hundred billion dollars. But the deregulation just kept on coming, though with a substantial slow down during Bill Clintons Presidency.

John McCain has always been an avid deregulator, except when it has been politically inconvenient to be so – like right now. Obviously, he is not about to admit that his consistent advocacy of deregulation over his whole Senate career has anything to do with our current financial crisis.


CONCLUSION

The question of how wealth is distributed in our society is a crucially important one because it determines how we will proceed from here. The wealthy, who control most of our telecommunications, would like us to believe that most redistribution of wealth in our country is from rich to poor. To the extent that Americans believe that, they are likely to passively accept the status quo or even to demand cuts in social programs that benefit the poor and the working and middle class at the expense of the wealthy. On the other hand, I suspect that if most Americans knew how much our system works to benefit the wealthy they would demand countermeasures be taken to distribute wealth more fairly in our country.

Since FDR, perhaps more than any other U.S. President (with the possible exception of Lincoln) recognized, gave voice to, and developed policies to counteract the redistribution of wealth from the poor and working and middle class to the wealthy, I’ll end this post with some excerpts from his great speech at the Democratic National Convention of 1936, which is just as relevant today as it was then:

Out of this modern civilization economic royalists carved new dynasties. New kingdoms were built upon concentration of control over material things. Through new uses of corporations, banks and securities, new machinery of industry and agriculture, of labor and capital-all undreamed of by the fathers-the whole structure of modern life was impressed into this royal service…

There was no place among this royalty for our many thousands of small business men and merchants who sought to make a worthy use of the American system of initiative and profit. They were no more free than the worker or the farmer…

It was natural and perhaps human that the privileged princes of these new economic dynasties, thirsting for power, reached out for control over Government itself. They created a new despotism and wrapped it in the robes of legal sanction. In its service new mercenaries sought to regiment the people, their labor, and their property. And as a result the average man once more confronts the problem that faced the Minute Man.

The hours men and women worked, the wages they received, the conditions of their labor-these had passed beyond the control of the people, and were imposed by this new industrial dictatorship. The savings of the average family, the capital of the small business man, the investments set aside for old age-other people's money-these were tools which the new economic royalty used to dig itself in.

Those who tilled the soil no longer reaped the rewards which were their right. The small measure of their gains was decreed by men in distant cities. Throughout the Nation, opportunity was limited by monopoly. Individual initiative was crushed in the cogs of a great machine. The field open for free business was more and more restricted. Private enterprise, indeed, became too private. It became privileged enterprise, not free enterprise.

An old English judge once said: "Necessitous men are not free men." Liberty requires opportunity to make a living-a living decent according to the standard of the time, a living which gives man not only enough to live by, but something to live for.

For too many of us the political equality we once had won was meaningless in the face of economic inequality. A small group had concentrated into their own hands an almost complete control over other people's property, other people's money, other people's labor-other people's lives. For too many of us life was no longer free; liberty no longer real; men could no longer follow the pursuit of happiness.

Against economic tyranny such as this, the American citizen could appeal only to the organized power of Government. The collapse of 1929 showed up the despotism for what it was. The election of 1932 was the people's mandate to end it. Under that mandate it is being ended.

The royalists of the economic order have conceded that political freedom was the business of the Government, but they have maintained that economic slavery was nobody's business. They granted that the Government could protect the citizen in his right to vote, but they denied that the Government could do anything to protect the citizen in his right to work and his right to live.

Today we stand committed to the proposition that freedom is no half-and-half affair. If the average citizen is guaranteed equal opportunity in the polling place, he must have equal opportunity in the market place.

These economic royalists complain that we seek to overthrow the institutions of America. What they really complain of is that we seek to take away their power. Our allegiance to American institutions requires the overthrow of this kind of power. In vain they seek to hide behind the Flag and the Constitution. In their blindness they forget what the Flag and the Constitution stand for. Now, as always, they stand for democracy, not tyranny; for freedom, not subjection; and against a dictatorship by mob rule and the over-privileged alike…

We are poor indeed if this Nation cannot afford to lift from every recess of American life the dread fear of the unemployed that they are not needed in the world. We cannot afford to accumulate a deficit in the books of human fortitude….Better the occasional faults of a Government that lives in a spirit of charity than the consistent omissions of a Government frozen in the ice of its own indifference….

Here in America we are waging a great and successful war (FDR is not talking here of WW II, which had not yet started, but rather the war against our own “Economic Royalists”, as he called them – the forerunners of today’s Republican Party). It is not alone a war against want and destitution and economic demoralization. It is more than that; it is a war for the survival of democracy. We are fighting to save a great and precious form of government for ourselves and for the world.

I accept the commission you have tendered me. I join with you. I am enlisted for the duration of the war.

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Naturyl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-21-08 07:33 PM
Response to Original message
1. Capitalism is a pyramid scheme
One of the most important functions of government is to ensure that some of the loot that flows up the pyramid is given back to those at the bottom.
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undergroundpanther Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-08 01:12 AM
Response to Reply #1
9. A ponzi
A pyramid has an apex regardless it is an authoritarian structure and everything flows UP.
You would do better to turn the pyramid upside down so that the majority have some and the very few have nothing.
A total reversal, of the way it is now.

The very few with nothing, in a just economy(if there IS such a thing) would be the oligarchies that have most now.
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LiberadorHugo Donating Member (557 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-21-08 07:36 PM
Response to Original message
2. Mossadegh's Iran, you say?
From what I understood, Whitehall and the Kremlin are equally culpable in his overthrow. Churchill wanted to continue to steal the oil and resources of the Iranian people by blocking the nationalisation of the Anglo-Iranian oil company and Stalin and is allies in Iran's political class sat on their hands and did nothing because Churchill was offering Stalin cheap oil. Fun little story behind that. :-)
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-08 12:55 PM
Response to Reply #2
19. An excellent book I read on the subject was "All the Shah's Men: An American Coup and the Roots of
Edited on Mon Sep-22-08 12:57 PM by Time for change
Middle East Terror" by David Kinzer.

It was very readable and detailed at the same time.

It is true that Britain was heavily involved. But it was primarily an American CIA operation.

I'm not aware of Stalin's reaction to it. But if all he did was sit on his hands and do nothing, I don't understand how that qualifies him as equally culpable. I'm not sure he could have stopped this even if he wanted to, short of risking war, which he most certainly didn't want. Not that I like the idea of defending Stalin. But this is one crime that I wouldn't want to pin on him.


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Disorientedx3 Donating Member (62 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-21-08 08:45 PM
Response to Original message
3. I learn so much on DU. thank you for posting. NT
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-08 07:04 AM
Response to Reply #3
11. Thank you
It's nice to hear that.
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debbierlus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-21-08 09:39 PM
Response to Original message
4. This IS the American perception change that needs to happen - turn the figth from each other

To the real problem...

They need us divided. They want us talking about anything but the truth.

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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-08 06:40 PM
Response to Reply #4
25. Yes.
Somehow they get poor uneducated folks to vote for them by scaring them about all the terrible things that liberals will do if they get elected. It will be an uphill climb to get them to see the light.
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adamuu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-21-08 09:51 PM
Response to Original message
5. fantastic post. thank you. n/t
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yowzayowzayowza Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-21-08 11:26 PM
Response to Original message
6. Yet for some reason they don't call this ...
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spag68 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-21-08 11:29 PM
Response to Original message
7. Wealth and labor
I read the post with interest, but it is not new to me. I was, in 1975to77 taking labor history at Pitt, so as to not lose my GI education money. A strange thing happened, as I learned I grew more radical, and now I tell you, this has been done before. From Carnegie's steelworker murders to the coal miner suppression it is always the same. The Rockefeller's and the original JP Morgan they just don't believe we have a right to any of the fruits of labor. We should be thankful they let us work at all, they say. At the risk of losing my pensions, I oppose the bailout of these criminals. Even the majority of those who foolishly took these crazy mortgages out could not have known they were being used. How can you think that a regular worker is going to understand that they were being trapped by sophisticated bankers. I'm not a very religious person, however one thing I remember is the bible talking about the money changers and the camel and the needle eye to heaven, not that that I believe in such a place, except as a state of mind. Over and over I try to understand why so many vote against their own interests, but they do. Our only hope is that enough will wake up before it's too late. We have to work harder, donate if we can, and keep up the fight, if only for our children and our grandchildren.Let them go bankrupt and see what happens, and by the way 200 billion a year to kill people in Iraq. Add that to the cost of giving up our freedom. E-mails, letters, phone calls, are in order. Start with every pol. that you can, let them know we are here.
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-08 10:23 AM
Response to Reply #7
17. Yes -- This is not new, we have a long history of this kind of thing
I agree with everything you say. It's a very sorry state of affairs.

Your labor history course sounds interesting. I would have liked to have taken something like that. The closest to that that I've ever read is a relatively recent book about the Haymarket Square bombing and trial -- It gives a lot of background to the labor movement in our country, but centers around that incdident.
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Jim Sagle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-21-08 11:48 PM
Response to Original message
8. Like it or not, the phrase "redistribution of wealth" has always been in very bad odor in America.
That's why it's not the best way to describe FDR's New Deal.

A better-sounding AND more accurate description would be "recirculation of money." One reason it's more accurate is that it suggests the basic problem of capitalism: that money naturally flows to the top where it stagnates, leaving the rest of the economy to die from lack of money circulating through it.

"Recirculation of money" also points to the New Deal solution: Tax excess wealth and feed it back to the lower/middle class through transfer payments and public works. It's a never-ending story, beneficial to all, unless the people can be tricked into abandoning it for "free market" hogwash. Of course that's what happened. We could've saved ourselves a world of hurt.

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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-08 11:39 AM
Response to Reply #8
18. Yes -- When we say "redistribution" of wealth,
most people picture that as some sort of giveaway to the poor. That's why I think it's important to consider which way the wealth is really flowing -- i.e. consider how our system provides advantages to the rich that causes money to flow to the top.
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ConsAreLiars Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-08 04:02 AM
Response to Original message
10. Thank you, K&R and all that. Your writings
always amaze me because of your insight and ability to document what you are saying about how things work. On the one hand, everything you say should be obvious to anyone who pays the slightest bit of attention to reality, but on the other, the massive power of the Corporate Monsters is so effective that hardly anyone who cares to look doesn't find sand thrown in their eyes, then discover only smoke and mirrors, and then find themselves mired in the middle of a massive pile of BS.

Thank you for getting beyond all that crap.
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-08 09:14 AM
Response to Reply #10
16. Thank you very much
I like your metaphor about the sand, smoke, mirrors, and massive pile of BS. Isn't that the truth?
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Joanne98 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-08 07:09 AM
Response to Original message
12. EXCELLENT! Thank you!
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cabbage08 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-08 07:52 AM
Response to Original message
13. ..
:kick:
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wysimdnwyg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-08 07:54 AM
Response to Original message
14. Excellent post, TFC
I especially like the bit from FDR's '36 DNC speech. It definitely fits today's economic situation as well as it did then.
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-08 05:40 PM
Response to Reply #14
24. Thank you -- I love that speech. It was so forthright
I don't recall hearing anything like it in my lifetime.

I tried to cut more parts out, so that this post would be a little shorter, but I couldn't find anything more that I could cut out.
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LatteLibertine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-08 07:59 AM
Response to Original message
15. I always liked the below site
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-08 04:41 PM
Response to Reply #15
23. Thank you for the link
That looks very interesting -- lots of information.
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hfojvt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-08 01:12 PM
Response to Original message
20. Powers Hapgood is a character in the Vonnegut book "Jailbird"
That book and "God Bless you, Mr. Rosewater" were important in shaping my thinking. However, I guess the Hapgood brothers were real people too. One of them, or one of their sons wrote a book in the 1970s called "The Screwing of the Average Man" which detailed some of the ways that the system works against ordinary people.

However, one of the things he mention was Social Security. The way, for example, that it is a tax only on wages, and further, only on wages up to a certain amount. It has gotten much worse since the bi-partisan solution in the 1980s to increase that tax to 15.3%. It is very regressive too because that tax is paid on the first dollar earned.

Second are the benefits. John McCain, for example, although he is already extremely wealthy collects something like $50,000 in social security. That income, which is more than twice as much as I have ever made in a year, is taxed at a lower rate than my wage income. The $1000 I pay in FICA taxes is considered taxable income too even though I never even see it.

Anyway, I'm not sure why I go off on this tangent. Maybe because even the reforms of FDR, instead of being socialism, were what Harrington called "Fordism", and Norman Thomas when he was told that most of the reforms of socialism were carried out by Democrats, replied that they were "carried out on a stretcher."

It is really "the system" though that creates the wealth. It's a group effort, a collective action, the combination of all our efforts. Some people find ways to game the system and others are excluded from it and kept from its benefits. Some of the massive benefits come from "amassing". For example, if I could get just one penny from every man, woman, and child in this country that would be $3 million dollars. Like many systems though, it is too complex to be well understood. Financial people are playing games with trillions of dollars and sometimes their mistakes, or scams, can jeapordize the entire system.

Supposedly the system is now in danger. Paulson is suggesting $700 billion in repairs. Are they necessary? Will they work? And who will they benefit? Those are all good questions. But like any system, a repair early is often worth the cost as it prevents future catastrophes that will be more expensive. Like the Iraq war though, Bush will try to frame it as a question of "my plan or do nothing" as if those are the only possible alternatives. Thankfully (or not, depending on the details) Senate Democrats have offered their own alternative.

Too late to correct it I suppose:
"So here we are today, following 38 years of right wing “progress”, with the largest degree of wealth inequality in our history. And following 38 years of what many would call the transfer of wealth from the poor and the middle class to the wealthy"

1980 was only 28 years ago.
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-08 03:22 PM
Response to Reply #20
22. Well, it was an understandable mistake
It certainly seems a lot longer than 28 years.

I think FDR's New Deal was more important than you suggest. Paul Krugman shows that the New Deal was followed by several decades of the "greatest sustained boom in U.S. history", which I talk about in more detail here:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x2275383

It could have been just coincidence, but I don't think that's likely. Key figures during that time were high median income, the highest level of income equality we've ever known, and very high marginal tax rates for the rich.

As far as Social Security is concerned, you point out a legitimate issue with the fact that the way we pay for it is regressive. But the program itself certainly isn't regressive. I'm not sure how much influence FDR had over the way we pay for it. Maybe he had to compromise in order to get it passed. And maybe it wasn't as bad then as it is now.
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GeorgeGist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-08 02:08 PM
Response to Original message
21. America has always had empathy ...
for exploiting the most for the benefit of the fewest.
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katty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-08 06:56 PM
Response to Original message
26. Sorry, this is NOT the 'best' Democracy Money Can Buy
this is total bullshit.
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Karenina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-23-08 05:26 AM
Response to Original message
27. bttt!
:kick:
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