Pakistan troops 'repel US raid'

[MrScorpio]

Pakistani troops have fired warning shots at two US helicopters forcing them back into Afghanistan, local Pakistani intelligence officials say.

The helicopters flew into the tribal North Waziristan region from Afghanistan's Khost province at around midnight, the reports say.

Tensions have risen after an increase in US attacks targeting militants.

The incident comes amid mounting security fears after a militant bomb attack on the Islamabad Marriott hotel.

Pakistan's army has said it will defend the country's sovereignty and reserves the right to retaliate to any border violations.

The government has said it will take targeted action against the militants, promising raids in some "hotspots" near the border with Afghanistan.

The Rest:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/7628890.stm

[EFerrari]

1. What the hell is Gates doing? Are they trying to explode Pakistan?

They're insane.

[quartz]

2. Typical.

[orwell]

3. Good for them...n/t

[Raskolnik]

5. Well, if they are protecting Taliban and/or Al Queda fighters, not so much.

I believe that this is a very complicated and potentially dangeraous situation, but I don't think Pakistan's selective enforcement of their border with Afghanistan really merits a "good for them."

[orwell]

6. They Pakistanis have the right...

...to protect their border as they see fit. When did they abrogate their sovreignty to us? I guess I missed that memo.

If we want to violate their border it can easily be construed as an act of war. How would we treat a similar action by a foreign power done to us?

If they want to go after al-Qaeda or Taliban strongholds without rubbing the Pakistani Government's face in it why don't they so it the old fashioned way, with a clandestine intelligence operation.

They are playing a dangerous game of chicken with a politically unstable nuclear armed power. This strikes me as incredibly irresponsible.

[Raskolnik]

7. But...if they are allowing Taliban and/or Al Queda to operate freely

in the border region, and are making no effort to either capture/kill them while allowing them to criss-cross the border with Afghanistan, it presents a bad situation all around.

[orwell]

8. I don't like the current situation...

...any more than you do. What I am saying is that we are making a bad situation much, much worse.

This type of cowboy diplomacy has to come to an end. From Georgia, to Iraq, to Afghanistan and Pakistan, this is turning into a giant cluster fuck of Bush/Cheney testosterone fueled arrogance.

These problems did not occur overnight. They are the direct result of close to sixty years of US unilateralism. We can't fix it by more unilateralism overnight.

The Pakistanis are as proud as we are. Their government can not allow the blatant breech of their borders by another country just as we wouldn't. To do so would guarantee their removal from office.

[Raskolnik]

9. I don't think it is quite an analogous situation

Part of the problem is that Pakistan *is* allowing a blatant breech if its borders by elements of the Taliban and/or Al Queda. Their complaints of territorial integrity would be more persuasive if they hadn't allowed (if not sanctioned) Taliban and Al Queda to set up shop in the border region and come and go with impunity.

I don't think we have a serious difference of opinion here, I just didn't think that a state which may be using force of arms to protect Taliban and/or Al Queda under the guise of enforcing its borders really merits a "good for them."

[EFerrari]

10. Of course they're protecting them. Both are ISI clients.

That's still no justification for invading Pakistan to take potshots are what usually turn out to be women and children.

This is political theater and that's all it is except, people really die. There's no military solution to the border problem. If there was an adult in the White House, s/he'd have figured out a way to give Afghanistan what the Taliban can't give -- jobs. Then the people would have had a reason to go with a new program. As it is, they have nothing.

Maybe CIA is just making too much money from the poppy.

[orwell]

12. Stop making sense...

...or you'll have to go sit in the corner... :hi:

[Raskolnik]

13. So if we know the location of Taliban fighters just within the Pakistan border

And Pakistan refuses to either kill/capture them themselves or grant permission for a raid, what would you do?

[EFerrari]

15. There is no military solution. We need to start giving the people

a reason to trust us again. Then, they themselves will take care of the Taliban and or hand over the criminals.

This "Pakistan won't" is just a red herring. BushCo knows Mullah Omar has been living in Karachi all these years. I was watching a conference of Pakistani scholars with journos that have worked in the region. BushCo has known that for years. Just like they know that al Qaida has in fact set up in the tribal regions. They're said to be training people from all over the world and in several languages.

Our military can't fix this. Have you SEEN that border?









/oops

[Raskolnik]

16. You didn't answer the question.

Which is my point, really. There aren't any good answers to that situation.

I'm not suggesting that military force is going to be the answer to all or even most of Afghanistan's problems, but military force certainly can be an a part of the answer to a limited subset of those problems. Namely, the problem of reconstituted Taliban / Al Queda bases on the Afghanistan/Pakistan border.

[EFerrari]

18. I do see what you mean and I don't myself mean to put down our guys.

There is not the political will to allow our military to do the job they are trained to do. In fact, there is all the political hypocrisy in the world to prevent them from doing it.

Obama says, more troops to Afghanistan. That might make him sound good, but it's a crazy idea in itself.

Bush has known how to decapitate the Taliban: he didn't want to do it.

There is no way to take out those bases along the border. The terrain can hide them for the next two hundred years. They are guerrillas. If you take out one location, they just get new bodies and move.

If I were the Queen of the Pentagon, lol, I'd position our guys to protect the area on the Afghan side of the border and wait until a less corrupt administration was in power. Raids into Pakistan are just going to get the wrong people killed, theirs and ours, with no real benefit.

There is also no real benefit to destabilizing Pakistan, which could easily happen. It's a powder keg over there.

We know Bush has no real interest in capturing either Omar or bin Laden. The War on Terra has never been about that at all. Bush made this a military and not a law enforcement action because it allowed his administration to assume enough power to sack our treasury and to capture the Justice Department. This may seem off topic, but consider that the declaration of war was the can opener BushCo needed to do whatever they wanted to do.

So, it's a mistake, imho, to even consider military solutions when your CIC is thinking in economic terms that benefit his cronies and not about the war, the military or about solutions at all. They don't care. If anything, the cabal rakes in more dough the worse this goes. And the people, here and there, bear the consequences.

For what Bush has done to our troops alone, he should be shunned for the rest of his miserable life.

/grammar

[fla nocount]

4. India will be our newest, new best friend. n/t

[lpbk2713]

11. BushCo wants to ignite the entire region.

And then he will attempt to pull something heroic that will get a lot of headlines for him and his gopper pals.

Of course with his track record he will fall flat on his face and blame someone else for his collossal failure.

[Toucano]

14. All to induce the rapture and the return of baby Jesus! n/t

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

17. Pakistan is on our border? Maybe we should try Mexico or Canada.

How is that we're protecting our borders by attacking Pakistan?

Of course, that's never stopped us before.

Cuba
Guatemala
Honduras
Congo
Angola
Laos
Vietnam
Russia
Mexico
Cambodia
El Salvador
Columbia
Haiti
The Philippines
Chile

Just to name a few countries we've subverted, invaded, killed in, or just generally made a mess of to "protect our borders".

[EFerrari]

19. OT: Would you consider checking this out?

Everyone is so freaked out over the predictable mess on Wall Street, my thread sank like a stern letter from Congress. It's getting so you don't know which fire to put out any more. :(

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=4058564&mesg_id=4058564

[Proud Liberal Dem]

20. I don't want to start a flamefest here

But wasn't pursuing the Taliban/Al-Queda into Pakistan if necessary one of Obama's ideas or did I misunderstand something that he said during one of the primary debates about Afghanistan/Pakistan? I only remember it because I thought that that wasn't such a good idea at the time (I still don't really now as it could potentially lead to conflict with/destabilize Pakistan).

BTW: I'm not a troll, just curious.
:hide: