Poll Question: Do you think felons should be allowed to vote?

[cali]

And just to make it clear, I'm not referring to ex-felons, but those currently serving time. My state (Vermont) does allow this. I believe it and Maine are the only states that do.

[barbtries]

1. if they've done their time

still incarcerated, i don't think so.

[cali]

2. why not?

I'm for it. I believe that civic involvement is a good thing.

[Kurt_and_Hunter]

11. Why shouldn't people in prison vote?

They weren't convicted of voting poorly.

What on Earth does commiting a crime have to do with voting? Is such disenfranchisement intended as punishment? Rehabilitation?

[barbtries]

18. i'm not sure i didn't give it much thought

but it essentially, i think the principal is that you are stripped of your rights as a citizen until you have paid your debt to society.

[Kurt_and_Hunter]

23. That's a good answer. One problem is that nobody knows whether prison is

meant to punish, to quarantine menaces, or to permit rehabilitation.

Since not voting is about 100,000th on any convicts list of what sucks about prison it has no value as punishment. So since it's not punishment, it seems like a gratuitous limitation of the franchise, just to let everyone know they are merely 'allowed' to vote... that it is not an inalienable right.

So to me it seems a way to formally dehumanize convicts (often for life, in practice) with no value in preventing crime or helping anyone.

Just my view.

(If some felons had voted in 2000 we wouldn't have had the Iraq War, so I don't see the good people argument.)

[samuraiguppy]

3. why deny them a right

to participate in our democracy just because of a mistake?

[Donald Ian Rankin]

29. What about the ones who committed crimes on purpose?

To be convicted of a crime requires proof of mens rea; if you make a genuine mistake then (unless you were grossly negligent) you haven't committed a crime.

[samuraiguppy]

32. I believe in redemption.

and compassion.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

65. Believe in them? I've seen them done...

However, that's not an answer, just a high-sounding but not terribly meaningful slogan.

People in prison are (except for the wrongfully convicted ones and the ones convicted of offences of strict liability) there because they committed crimes on purpose, and referring to them as having "made mistakes" is a deliberate attempt at misrepresenting the situation.

Compassion has to be applied not just to those in gaol, but also to those who will be victims of crime if the justice system doesn't function as a deterrent and a preventative (and to those who have already been victims of crime and want revenge/justice, which, while less important, is something left-wingers often underestimate the importance of, I think).

And redemption is a fine thing - spending more money on rehabilitating criminals while in prison would be an excellent idea - but it's an addition, not an alternative, to punishment.

[Obamanaut]

45. A mistake is picking up the wrong fork at dinner, or wearing mis-

matched cufflinks. As a general rule, persons are incarcerated because they transgressed the laws of society, not because they made a mistake.

[Marie2]

61. And felonies

are things like murder, rape, robbery, extortion, kidnapping, attempted murder, assault. . .not so much "mistakes."

[Obamanaut]

67. Not a single one of the items on your list is a mistake. That was

my point. DUI manslaughter, as an example, is not a mistake. As soon as a person gets behind the wheel of a vehicle after becoming impaired via alcohol consumption (the consumption of which was a conscious decision) that person must be prepared to accept the consequences of his/her actions. A subsequent accident is not a mistake, the death of another person in that accident is not a mistake.

[Obamanaut]

69. Most people who are in jails and prisons are not there because

of mistakes. Some are (mistaken identity, improper evidence gathering, etc) but most have gotten where they are because of some decision they made. They decided to have seven beers after work and then drove over someone while driving impaired. They decided to hold up a convenience store. And so on. In these cases, they are not being "denied" rights, they have forfeited rights.

[RidinMyDonkey]

4. Why shouldn't they get a vote?

Even if they've committed a crime, they still have to live here so why shouldn't their voices count?

[Kurt_and_Hunter]

5. Not even debatable. "Inalienable" has a meaning.

Voting is not a privilege like driving. The franchise is the signal trait of an adult citizen.

(And if felons can't vote then everyone with a personal perspective on penal reform is removed from the equation!)

[Mandate My Ass]

21. exactamente!

It's like excommunication, (which I don't believe in). IMHO, no civic power, or no secular or religious ethical imperative, exists to strip another of citizenship or the possiblity of finding redemption.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

31. So depriving felons of their liberty is wrong too?

That's the line after the one you quote.

The notion of an inalienable right, while inspiring sounding, is utter nonsense.

Your second argument is more compelling, but given the number of felons in gaol at any one time, and the fact that politicians will actively avoid trying to court their votes, it doesn't make much difference.

On balance, I think you're probably right, but I don't think it's a terribly important issue.

[Kurt_and_Hunter]

33. One presumes there is a profound state interest in depriving them of liberty

There is no sensible state interest, profound or otherwise, in preventing them from voting.

Disenfranchising someone has no benefit as rehabilitation, punishment, or protection of society.

Inalienable (in my understanding) doesn't mean the state cannot limit it; it means it cannot be separated from a person's humanity.

I don't see liberty and voting as comparable because nobody in a democracy can ever be said (by the state) to have misused their franchise by voting wrong. That's not the state's call to make.

It is, however, the state's business if you run around killing everyone. The state does say, in extreme instances, that one is abusing their liberty.

[Marie2]

62. Convicted felons lose all sorts of rights.

They can't drive, choose their meals, pick their roommate, sleep when they want, get up when they want, watch tv if they want, work at a job they want, go to school where they want. . .

they sure don't have freedom of speech, freedom of assembly, freedom of the press, or freedom to own a gun in there!

So talk of their civil rights is absurd, I think. If you want all felons to have all their civil rights, you couldn't incarcerate them.

[ThomWV]

6. They are still a part of our society even if they are deprived of the ability to roam in it

And they still have interests in and a responsibility to society so I think not only should they maintain their right to vote but in fact I think they should be encouraged to do so. We can not divorce our children.

[Selatius]

7. I don't see how the First Amendment prohibits felons from voting. Anybody else see it? nt

[TroglodyteScholar]

8. A simple "yes" and "no" won't do this question justice

I'd venture to say most who think "yes" also would attach at least one qualifier.

[Kurt_and_Hunter]

12. You might be wrong about that.. Or maybe not.

But I sure cannot think of any exception to my YES.

[TroglodyteScholar]

28. So you think a convicted rapist should be allowed to vote from his prison cell? n/t

[Kurt_and_Hunter]

34. Without a doubt. Yes.

If felons voted in 2000 the Iraq War would never have happened.

54 million free people voted to continue the Iraq War in 2004.

(That's not to say felons are uniquely wise... just that I see no distinct menace in their voting.)

The alternative is that the state gets to decide which citizens can vote. "You suck... you can't vote." That's a terrible precedent.

I don't care if someone is scheduled to be executed November 5th, they should still be able to vote November 4th.

The state is supposed to desire everyone's vote as a benefit to the state, not the voters. (We consider voting a civic act, rather than a selfish act. Even if that's crap it remains our national mythology.)

[tazkcmo]

24. nope. No qualifiers. nt

[Truth2Tell]

56. Yes. With no qualifiers. nt

[NorCalDem]

9. Of course, anyone who answers 'NO' is fascist.

We're not talking about the most violent felony offenders here, we're talking about your run of the mill felon. That means someone who was picked up on marijuana possession, served 30 days, and is back working for a living with a 'felon' albatross hanging around their damn neck. THESE people of course should have the right to vote, and anyone who does not think so is fascist, period, end of discussion.

[mduffy31]

10. Well I guess I will get fitted for my Nazi armband then

[cali]

14. god, I get sick of the crap. So is someone doesn't believe that

felons shouldn't be able to vote, they're a fascist? What a steaming load of shit. Stupid beyond description. End of discussion.

[ThomWV]

17. I say yes myself but I could easily understand why someone would say No.

To me its about the same thing as being either accepting of or against the Death Penality. There are reasonable arguments to be made either way and I can easily understand someone coming down on either side.

[barbtries]

20. i agree

unfortunately there are way too many of those people in prison today. non violent offenders

i honestly don't know where i weigh in on this question. i shoulda thunk longer before responding

[Venceremos]

22. Wow....

so the way I read your post is that anybody who disagrees with you gets branded a fascist, period, end of discussion, How terribly open-minded of you.

[stillcool]

13. I've known my share of 'felons'..

who've done time for drug arrests. I believe that the majority of the prison population, unlike public perception, is not filled with murderers and rapists. I would hope that all citizens would have the opportunity to vote, but I'm sure that is not the popular position.

[bemildred]

15. All citizens have a right to vote. nt

[Buck Laser]

16. State laws govern who gets to vote,

at least with regard to felons. State laws vary widely with regard to voting rights. If it hasn't come up already, it would be an interesting case to bring before the SCOTUS.

Some of my winger friends claim that nearly all of the prison population are liberals, so it'd prolly be a good thing. I wonder how many white collar criminals are democrats, though. Anyone think Jack Abramoff is a democrat?

[Kurt_and_Hunter]

19. Ask Al Gore

[retread]

25. With the exception of Bush and Cheney.... n/t

[Sebastian Doyle]

26. With two possible exceptions

If you have been convicted of election fraud, or treason, you should never be allowed to vote again. And hopefully, there will be many convictions on those charges in the near future.

As far as anyone else goes, if you have served your time, there's absolutely no reason why you shouldn't have the same rights as any other citizen.

[IsItJustMe]

41. You have the right answer in my mind. Took the words out of my mouth.

[EC]

27. Ex - felons sure,

while in prison they aren't considered citizens....but this is rough, because I think most of them become fundies while in prison and that means repubs...

I don't think that most are Dems holds true anymore...I could be wrong...

[Donald Ian Rankin]

30. It doesn't much matter.

There are arguments both for and against of roughly equal strength, and since it wouldn't often influence the outcome of elections it isn't terribly important.

Either approach works about as well as the other.

[Kurt_and_Hunter]

36. What is the most persuasive reason against felons voting?

[Indenturedebtor]

38. I can't speak for all of the "No" folks, but for me

When you are convicted of a felony you are convicted of breaking your contract with society. When you have paid your debt to society for damaging it, then I think that you should have a say in the society that you contribute to.

Aside from that there is an important practical consideration: What would stop felons from simply voting for the candidate who promises them concessions? Would all child molestors not vote for the candidate that pandered to them?

[Kurt_and_Hunter]

39. There's much to be said for society not incarcerating enough people to be a powerful voting block

Poor people can vote for the government to give them money. Why shouldn't prisoners vote for the government to free them?

It's not like the convict candidate will ever win since non-convicts wouldn't be thrilled, and if he does win on the convict vote then we have WAY too many people in prison.

It seems perverse to me that a person can file an appeal, but not vote.

But I appreciate your answer. I will think on it.

[Indenturedebtor]

57. See I think you've pointed out an important paradox there too

"It's not like the convict candidate will ever win since non-convicts wouldn't be thrilled, and if he does win on the convict vote then we have WAY too many people in prison."

Perhaps such a measure would make punishments even more harsh by making CJUS even more of a political football than it is... I dunno.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

35. Would that include congress?

"It could probably be shown by facts and figures that there is no distinctly native American criminal class except Congress." - Mark Twain

[robcon]

37. Hell, no.

n/t

[GoneOffShore]

40. Unless they're Republican felons

Then they should NEVER get out and never be able to vote again.

[NightWatcher]

42. I think that I do support "civil death" for convicted felons

A voluntary act committed by the offender is enough in my book to cost them their right to vote.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

44. Why stop at that?

Deny them the right to drive too. Or to publish things, or to appear on television. Or to earn more than $20,000 a year. After all, they committed a "voluntary act."

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

43. Prohibition is admissible only if they are actually imprisoned.

After they get out, even in probation, they become part of society again and therefore should be allowed to vote just like anybody else, no other red tape hoops to jump through either.

[catnhatnh]

46. If you claim to be a Christian, then your basic dogma includes redemption...

...and redemption implies no restrictions. Redemption by definition means restoration of status and must include includes voting rights, for are they not LESS important then entrance to the kingdom of heaven? So for McCain and Palin to oppose felon voting rights would be to be in opposition to the Will of their God ?...Do they stand in defiance to their own Deity? And if so, do they do it only when it profits their polling numbers?...

[ncteechur]

47. They let them run the government and Wall Street, why the fuck not??

[LiberadorHugo]

48. Absolutely...

As long as you can get felonies for selling cannabis or (in Washington State) playing online poker (thanks to a "Democrat" who was bribed by the fucking Tribal Gambling Interests), it would be unfair to stop felons from voting. As long as there are laws that are incompatible with the ideal of a free and just society, it is inexcusable that so-called felons be denied the right to vote.

[The Straight Story]

49. How about we reword the poll: Should killers, child molesters, rapists, abortion clinic bombers, etc

be allowed to vote?

[Kurt_and_Hunter]

53. Yes. Of course. What's with the DU freep-squad up in here?

[The Straight Story]

74. I dunno, people tend to use words like 'felon' because they sound nicer

once you start asking the question based on the crime people get upset it seems.

[SammyWinstonJack]

50. I say, yes!

[MrSlayer]

51. No, you have forfeited your rights when you are convicted and imprisoned.

Once you get out you can vote, if you get out.

[underpants]

52. Crawford Texas

*AWKWARD*

[David Zephyr]

54. Yes, and even from within prison before they've "done their time".

.

[Balbus]

55. Once term is served and probation is over - absolutely.

[KathieG]

58. As the wife of a corrections officer, I'm going to say yes, but...

I think it should be limited to inmates who are involved in programs...educational programs, work programs etc. Those inmates putting effort into improving themselves so that they can re-enter society and become productive citizens. I think it would give many inmates pride and a sense of accomplishment, and it may actually help in their rehabilitation.

[mwooldri]

59. The EU and the UN have spoken.

They say felons should have the right to the vote.

The UK was taken to court for this by an inmate - the inmate took it all the way up to Europe's highest court and the inmate won.

Now the UK is trying to figure something out. Like not giving the vote to rapists and serial killers but the vote is OK for bank robbers or drug use felons. Haven't sorted it out yet AFAIK.

I mean think about it... if Osama Bin Laden was in jail (which he isn't) and he was a US citizen (which he isn't) do you think he should get the vote? Bin Laden too controversial? Maybe The Yorkshire Ripper instead? Personally I feel uneasy... legally it might be right to do so... but I do feel uneasy.

[travelingtypist]

60. Thank you, DU.

I'm 43 now. I shot my brother with a .22 pistol when I was 24. He was
fine. Oklahoma gave me five years probation and sent me back to Oregon,
but I am to this day a convicted felon. In Oregon I can vote.

[Undercurrent]

63. Why shouldn't they maintain their right to vote?

A person doesn't loose all their Constitutional rights in prison. For example they maintain their right of habeas corpus, thus they can appeal.

[Pushed To The Left]

64. Yes. Once somebody has paid his or her debt to society, they should be free to vote

The reason the right wing doesn't want felons to vote is because they want fewer people voting! Making it illegal for felons to vote also makes it easier to take "felons" off the voting lists..along with some innocent non-felons that happen to have the same names!

[El Pinko]

66. I would say NO.

I would extend that to felons on probation, but not to felons who have completely repaid their debt.

I personally think imprisonment should represent a serious loss of rights and freedoms, certainly including voting, not to mention gender reassignment surgery and a number of other things prisoners get that honest citizens may not be able to afford. ( I would support gender reassignment for prisoners, ONLY if it was covered by universal care for all citizens first, otherwise is is damn unfair.)

[Hubert Flottz]

68. Why the hell not, they are allowed to run the god damned country?

[Zero Division]

70. Yes, unless the crime involved a serious violation of election laws.

The consequences should generally fit the crime.

[bunkerbuster1]

71. Absolutely.

The only thing that will serve as a check and balance to the prison-industrial complex is enfranchising those who've been roped up by it. This should be a federal law.

[Douglas Carpenter]

72. I simply cannot imagine a rational reason why not

It is pointless to add a completely ridiculous and unnecessary - symbolic slap of alienation against someone.

Perhaps they should not be allowed to celebrate the fourth of July too.

[noonwitch]

73. Not when they are serving their sentence.

Being incarcerated as a punishment for a crime means that you lose certain rights, one of which is the right to vote.

Once they are released, I think they should be able to vote, though. Otherwise, they are being taxed without representation.

[cali]

75. bzzzzt. wrong. Being incarcerated does not automatically mean that you lose the right to vote.

it's up to the states. In my state of Vermont, felons have the right to vote. I support that. So do most Vermonters.