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jpgray Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-08 08:10 PM
Original message
The one common opinion of DU about which I am the most confused
It's the idea that Nancy Pelosi and Harry Reid possess the power to effectively control Congress on controversial issues. This concept has never made sense to me, given the status of our current delegation.

First look at the "majorities" we currently enjoy: "1" in the Senate (guess who it is!), and 16 or so in the House. The 16 in the house seems great, no? Well, it isn't. It amounts to about a 53% majority (233 v 202), which is solid but hardly a session-dominating monster of a lead.

So those are the strict numbers. A virtual tie in the Senate, and a marginal majority in the House. But wait a minute! We've seen the GOP work wonders (horrors) with that sort of tenuous grip. The question then becomes: why can't the Democrats?

The answer is simple and well-known by all (though ignored by many)--the Democratic delegation is fractious and not at all united. They are not anywhere close to monolithic in their ends, means or anything in-between. The GOP, however, -is- mostly united, as befits their extremely authoritarian character and stances in general.

Don't believe it? Let's consider the blue dog coalition alone, which officially numbers 47 in the House. Typically these pols are from reddish states and have trumpeted the standard "conservative values": "tough" on foreign policy, deregulators on business/trade, and social conservatives on domestic policy. (One might ask "Why are they Democrats?" or "Were they the best Dem to run?", but in any case that's what we're dealing with at the moment.) When you subtract a significant number of those 47 Dems on a controversial issue (say, the war or impeachment), Pelosi has very little actual power.

I'll agree that Pelosi and Reid have failed to wrangle our delegation effectively, and that they've failed to pounce on important issues where we have the advantage. However, I believe that their failures to impeach Bush or end the war via killing its funding are easily explained by a simple lack of real strength. It's frustrating and infuriating on a superficial level that we can't muster up all the troops on any given issue (though we did on Habeas Corpus). We see the GOP effortlessly vote as one on an unpopular stance and under tough pressure, so when our party can't it seems inexplicable on the face of it.

However another result of the "big tent" is that it allows those on the -progressive- margin of the caucus (like Dennis Kucinich and Bernie Sanders) to be -far- more effective than they would be if shoved out for the sake of "unity." If the party adopted strict authoritarian control of message, means and ends, we wouldn't just lose the blue dogs, we'd lose some important progressive voices. If we adopted such on progressive lines (for impeachment, for defunding the war), the blue dogs would bolt and we'd only possess about 43% of the House to the GOP's 46%. We'd lose chairmanships, we'd lose legislative control, we'd lose quite a bit.

So what's to be done? Absolutely write and call Pelosi and Reid and clamor for more action and consistency, but more importantly you should make your feelings known to your own representatives. In many cases it isn't Pelosi deciding "I don't want a strong stance against the war," but rather a sizable portion of our delegation. They can slip under the radar by refusing their support, while Pelosi will become the visible symbol of their fear and inaction.

She should do better, and Reid should do better. That much is self-evident. If we win a larger majority in '08 and the presidency besides, we'll see if I'm correct about this or if Reid and Pelosi are actually the moral cowards many DUers accuse them of being. But I think there's evidence enough to show that cowardice and complicity aren't the -only- explanations for the lack of strong action on controversial issues. What do you think?
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msongs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-08 08:13 PM
Response to Original message
1. the job of leadership is marshalling their OWN PARTY. nt
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jpgray Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-08 08:52 PM
Response to Reply #1
5. True enough, though some delegations are easier to marshal than others
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Virginia Dare Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-23-08 12:15 PM
Response to Reply #5
10. The Dems have a much broader spectrum of ideology than the repubs..
of course that is by design.
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jpgray Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-23-08 12:26 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. I think we've seen an erosion of GOP solidarity that may even things up
In other words, our fractious delegation (with a greater majority!) may become more or less as untied as a GOP minority, and we'll be far more effective as a result. We've seen that GOP division on popular stances that cut against their "values," such as stem cell research and opposition to Social Security privatization. The less popular they are as a party and the more voters kick them out of their seats, the more you'll see GOP pols scrambling to the "soft center." I think a similar phenomenon occurred from '94 on with the Democrats, when the GOP was becoming ascendant in its solidarity and popularity--hopefully by that rationale increased popularity will bring more caucus unity to us as well. We still won't be as authoritarian as the GOP in terms of message or strategy, but it'll be far closer.
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ThomWV Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-23-08 05:20 PM
Response to Reply #5
45. Well, of some are easy to manage then some must be hard, and Nancy is not up to the task
Nobody said it would be easy, what was said was she is ineffective at it - and Harry is not one single bit better.
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jpgray Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-23-08 07:17 PM
Response to Reply #45
50. Who would be better, do you think?
Edited on Tue Sep-23-08 07:17 PM by jpgray
And what would it take to get everyone on board when necessary, including the blue dogs?
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DeepBlueC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-08 08:16 PM
Response to Original message
2. I think you are very astute nt
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jpgray Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-23-08 12:14 PM
Response to Reply #2
9. I's probably better to be terse, but thanks.
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SIMPLYB1980 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-08 08:28 PM
Response to Original message
3. K&R!
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jpgray Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-23-08 12:53 PM
Response to Reply #3
12. Thanks
And now my self-kick replies are truly becoming obnoxious. :P
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rgbecker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-08 08:33 PM
Response to Original message
4. Yours are all good points and there is also the W Problem in the WH.
His ability to veto anything he doesn't like, and thus require the 2/3 vote, further ties the hands of the loose knit democrats. I'm Hopeful Obama will bring the change in the WH we need to unleash the progressive wing of the Democratic Party.
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jpgray Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-08 09:01 PM
Response to Reply #4
6. My post was pretty long and pedantic as is, but yes that's a crucial factor
When you're almost never going to get your necessary majority in the Senate, that's a bit dispiriting. The obvious choice many here advocate is to force W to veto every time we can, yet just the knowledge that it may be fruitless and decried with calls of "partisan," "obstructionist" and other nonsensical pejoratives is doubtless enough to chase off many conservative Dems from even the first vote. With a Democratic president, we can reclaim a lot of legislative momentum.
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Beregond2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-08 09:21 PM
Response to Original message
7. Too much nuance for the annoying ones here to process.
They'd rather demonize than think.
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jpgray Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-08 09:38 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. It's understandable though that people are frustrated
I just hope people consider all the factors that lead into this behavior on the part of our delegation, rather than just lay all the blame at the most visible figures.
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PeaceNikki Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-23-08 12:57 PM
Response to Original message
13. K&R
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Cleita Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-23-08 12:58 PM
Response to Original message
14. Seems to be the Republicans can aggressively push their agenda even
having only a small majority. We are asking our Democrats to do the same.
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jpgray Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-23-08 01:02 PM
Response to Reply #14
15. While the two recent majorities are similar in numbers, they are not similar in terms of unity
Given the number of self-professed blue dogs alone, that seems to be the case. Of course, timid Democrats are not limited to the blue dog coalition, but at least there we have a concrete number to deal with. Do you agree with that, or do you feel we are just as united as was the GOP, and that it is solely a failure of leadership? I'll agree that there's a failure of leadership here, but that it's not as exclusive a failure as some would argue--other significant factors are in play.
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Cleita Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-23-08 01:20 PM
Response to Reply #15
25. We have lacked the leadership to be as united as the GOP. Of course a
Edited on Tue Sep-23-08 01:20 PM by Cleita
lot of their unity comes from intimidation and bribery, so I'm grateful that we don't do it that way, but we should be making a better stand. The fact is that Nancy Pelosi and Harry Reid are piss poor leadership and we need to exchange them for some progressive democrats with fire in their bellies.
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jpgray Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-23-08 05:14 PM
Response to Reply #25
43. "What price unity" is an important question
The DLC in particular are too focused on modeling recent political success, which in this climate means imitating the GOP's tactics. For reasons that are too long to post, that isn't going to work. Until we find the right mechanism to promote the ideals Democrats share, we can -at least- pounce on the issues where we have an inarguable advantage. That's where Reid and Pelosi have failed in my eyes.
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PeaceNikki Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-23-08 01:04 PM
Response to Reply #14
17. I, for one, am glad when Democrats don't follow the lead of Republicans
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Cleita Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-23-08 01:21 PM
Response to Reply #17
27. Well, then just sit back and let them take everything from you. n/t
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PeaceNikki Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-23-08 01:24 PM
Response to Reply #27
32. oh, ok.
:eyes:
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crappyjazz Donating Member (886 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-23-08 01:04 PM
Response to Original message
16. Shhh don't confuse us with facts
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Tierra_y_Libertad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-23-08 01:05 PM
Response to Original message
18. All of which is why I'm a DINO.
And, vote issues instead of party.
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enigmatic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-23-08 01:10 PM
Response to Original message
19. You're wasting your time, man
I love your posts, but DU doesn't do thoughtful analysis anymore; it's become more hysterical hyperbole than anything else now.



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PeaceNikki Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-23-08 01:13 PM
Response to Reply #19
21. Touché
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jpgray Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-23-08 06:03 PM
Response to Reply #19
47. It's nice to see what people think anyway
Even if it's only a few people. :)
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burythehatchet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-23-08 01:13 PM
Response to Original message
20. ...and yet, the congressional "minority" gets everything they want
go figure

:shrug:
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jpgray Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-23-08 01:33 PM
Response to Reply #20
34. Not really. Leahy's DOJ investigation is one example
The power of chairmanships is really quite potent. You can fairly argue that executive intransigence made the investigations more or less toothless, but they certainly were not anything the GOP wanted. If you're speaking in terms of controversial votes, then yes, the GOP do seem to stave off those bills they most strongly oppose.
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JVS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-23-08 01:15 PM
Response to Original message
22. "I'll agree that Pelosi and Reid have failed to wrangle our delegation effectively"
A lot of that is because of things like taking impeachment off the table. I'm not saying that they could have made it happen, but by conceding the issue out of hand, they engaged in poor tactics. I wish they would wise up and take a page out of the Gingrich playbook that says act like a crazy maniac SOB at all times and actually pull it off when you find yourself in the position to do it.
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jpgray Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-23-08 01:20 PM
Response to Reply #22
26. Another part of the problem is the DLC's past ascendancy on determining strategy
It's lessening by degrees as Clinton's term fades further into the past, but to make a bad analogy it's like an iterated Prisoner's Dilemma: the conservative Dems keep trying to collaborate on controversial issues and the GOP gleefully agrees when expedient and just as gleefully pulls out the rug when they have the advantage. The GOP taking the lead with superior issue framing (often abetted by false equivalency reporting the media) often confuses dull-witted Democratic strategists into this position time and time again as they think only in the short-term.
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JVS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-23-08 01:23 PM
Response to Reply #26
30. Well hopefully we'll be in a position soon to purge those elements from the party.
Conservative dems need to realize that fighting is better than triangulation. Especially on a PR front where collaboration is taken to be a sign of weakness. Remember that most voters are much more concerned with image than issues. In such an environment compromise is useless because it's a policy based input into public image, it's more important to look tough.
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jpgray Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-23-08 01:48 PM
Response to Reply #30
38. That comes back to failures of framing, marketing and in general controlling the debate
Absent a Scaife-Coors style think tank system, we need to find a way to look at the long-term goals of the party and develop legislative strategy that will market and promote those issues where we are strong and the GOP is weak. It shouldn't be too difficult, but again the DLC old guard is a huge obstacle--the freak success of Clinton (who won mostly on individual talent) still has too many convinced that aping the GOP is a winning strategy. Why this is the case after nearly a decade of GOP triumph is a mystery.
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Zuiderelle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-23-08 01:17 PM
Response to Original message
23. I think that's a post that should be recommended.
Unfortunately, thoughtful analysis and reasonable hypotheses get drowned out here by the pitchforks and torches.
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BlooInBloo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-23-08 01:18 PM
Response to Original message
24. You fight the fights that are worth fighting. Not only those you think you can win....
They fail utterly on that.

And when you do fight the good fights, you're likely to be surprised at just how many you really *can* win.
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Cleita Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-23-08 01:22 PM
Response to Reply #24
28. Amen to that and I wonder if we shall ever see that. n/t
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jpgray Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-23-08 01:24 PM
Response to Reply #24
31. I think it's unquestionable that often we've had the advantage yet failed to pounce
What leads into a decision like that? Is there a moment when 20% of our House delegation (blue dogs) says they can't (won't) stand strong? Is it decided by fiat from Pelosi before the discussion takes place? Are the advantages and disadvantages of fighting down to the end regardless of party unity tallied up and thrust through some politically-motivated calculus? I don't know the answers to those questions.
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ColbertWatcher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-23-08 01:23 PM
Response to Original message
29. Thank you for writing this. k+r, n/t
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EstimatedProphet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-23-08 01:32 PM
Response to Original message
33. Very well put and well-reasoned
Which doesn't bode well for this post.
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progressoid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-23-08 01:45 PM
Response to Reply #33
37. No shit. Where's the hyperbole and outrage?
What a loser post.

;)

K&R
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Festivito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-23-08 01:33 PM
Response to Original message
35. I don't like her glib dismissal of impeachment.
If you don't have enough Dem votes, say you don't have enough Dem votes.
If you don't have enough Senate votes, say....
But, this "it's off the table" is trite and for that asinine.

As to not completing much, I blame on CONs who filibuster more than at any time in our nation's history.

If people expect her to herd DemCats I understand that it is not easy. But, if she can't, she needs to get out of the way. Step down. Walk away. Maybe no one can do it. But, we need to be trying.

PUBs have nasty info on their own people. (That's why they get into so many sting situations. They think they're accepted and immune.) CONs also have talking points that work and become accustomed to having controversial thoughts put into their heads. Dems don't seem to have either of these conformance tools.

Maybe we need to start playing hardball and teach how it is done, why it is done, and do it with less corrupt money.
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jpgray Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-23-08 01:41 PM
Response to Reply #35
36. That's totally fair. I think a case can be made for laying out their reasons more directly
And also for not being so afraid of doggedly pushing an issue only to fail in the end. I think the Democrats are well-suited to playing "hardball," since many progressive stances are extremely popular when simply described in isolation from any party or candidate. However I think strategically the Democrats focus too much on isolated portions of the debate as they appear, rather than the pattern of marketed issues and how they are brought up and framed in the first place by the GOP.
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Festivito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-23-08 01:56 PM
Response to Reply #36
40. The game is changing as we type. We need to turn on a dime.
Hardball is the game now. This huge loss in the shadow banking system is another attempt like taking away Social Security.

They are failing. Sentiment is with US Dems.

We need to move.
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jpgray Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-23-08 05:09 PM
Response to Reply #40
42. I think Social Security is a perfect example of where they are weak and we are strong
And the time to pounce is, of course, now; especially considering McCain's support for "personal accounts."
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Virginia Dare Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-23-08 01:55 PM
Response to Reply #35
39. I bet the repubs richly wish they would have impeached right about now...
give enough rope, eventually they'll hang.
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Festivito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-23-08 03:24 PM
Response to Reply #39
41. PUBbies would have voted against it, and would look like fools now.
But, alas, we still have both.
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ThomWV Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-23-08 06:09 PM
Response to Reply #39
49. Insightful!
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dkofos Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-23-08 05:19 PM
Response to Original message
44. Say what you want, but I think they are useless as leaders.
And I hope pelosi gets beat by Cindy S.
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jpgray Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-23-08 05:30 PM
Response to Reply #44
46. It certainly comes across that way. I think the important question is "why?"
Obviously it's some mix of the disunity of our caucus and the inability of Pelosi and Reid to muster the troops, but which is the major factor?
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fla nocount Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-23-08 06:07 PM
Response to Original message
48. The chair rules the floor of the House. Period. n/t
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