Fifth-Grader Suspended For Anti-Obama Shirt

[Sodan]

AURORA - An Aurora 11-year-old says his first amendment rights are being trampled after he was suspended for wearing a homemade shirt that reads "Obama is a terrorist's best friend."

The fifth grader wore it on a day when students were asked to wear red, white and blue to show their patriotism.

The boy's father Dann Dalton describes himself as a "proud conservtive" who has taken part in some controversial anti-abortion protests. Dalton says the school made a major mistake by suspending his son for wearing the shirt.

"It's the public school system," Dalton says, "let's be honest, it's full of liberal loons."

The school district told Daxx Dalton that he had the choice of changing his shirt, turing his shirt inside out or being suspended.

Daxx chose suspension.

"They're taking away my right of freedom of speech," he says. "If I have the right to wwear this shirt I'm going to use it. And if the only way to use it is get suspended, then I'm going to get suspended."

Daxx's dad agrees with him and is encouraging his son to sstand his ground. "The facts are his rights were violated. Period."

Aurora public schools could not talk about the case but said they "Respect a student's right to free speech, such as the right tto wear specific clothing" but they said they review any situation that interrupts the learning environment.


DAXX DALTON??
DANN DALTON??

http://www.myfoxcolorado.com/myfox/pages/News/Politics/Detail;jsessionid=6927DC35D5BE0FD28453EBF270372CF5?contentId=7490636&version=4&locale=EN-US&layoutCode=TSTY&pageId=3.14.1&sflg=1

[magellan]

1. Obama is friends with George Bush**???

I may have to rethink my vote.....

[hobbit709]

2. Sounds like he got the kids name from

The Sarah Palin Golden Book Of Idiotic Sounding Children's Names.

[Ian David]

7. Star Trek: Deep Space Nine?

http://www.webpan.com/dsinclair/ds9.html

[Kitty Herder]

12. I actually know a child named after Dax.

The girl's name is Ezri and her father is a star trek fan.

[Ian David]

17. My daughter is named Delenn.

[WePurrsevere]

96. That's wonderful! Delenn is one of my favorite characters from Babylon 5.

(My favorite sci-fi TV show).

Sadly my childbearing days are probably over and I figured my DDs woulnd't use the name so I had to settle for naming one of our cats (a rescue) Delenn. :)

[Ian David]

97. Our Rescue Cat is named Stephanie Miller.

See also:

Kitten Adoption Update: Randi is Keith, and Keith is Randi.
Topic started by IanDB1 on Aug-30-07 09:43 PM (0 replies)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=158x13105

Brockton, Mass. Free Kitten to Good Home (Adopt Keith or Randi... we're keeping Stephanie)
Topic started by IanDB1 on Aug-28-07 04:01 PM (0 replies)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=105&topic_id=6875921

[WePurrsevere]

104. Aww.. thnaks for the picture, she's adorable. It sounds like you got good homes for

the other two... how very sad that the other Siamese looking one had to be put down though. :(

I used to do a lot of rescue work, especially with cats so it warms my heart to see someone who's willing to take in little ones and find them homes. It helps make up for all the crappy things I saw people do.. like wrap young kittens into a plastic bag and throw them into a dumpster like they were garbage. :grr:

FWIW.. our Delenn is a sort of long haired brown and black tabby. I don't have a picture of her ATM but she's a beautiful and very sweet cat. :)

[tigereye]

131. but Dax was cool. This guy sounds really out there.

[Posteritatis]

176. Depends no the Dax. There were what, nine? (nt)

[warrior1]

22. Hello!

[Blue_Tires]

32. ohgodyes, plz

[NeedleCast]

38. Well, that's the end of my productivity for today

Wont be able to think beyond that kiss.

[Ian David]

3. I'm gonna have to side with the kid on this one. The school had no business censoring him.

However, he should be required to write, "I will not slander" 1,000 times.

[hobbit709]

4. I would have let the other kids apply a little "peer pressure"

[Ian David]

10. I cannot condone bullying for any reason.

Even when it is so richly deserved.

[Guaranteed]

159. Depends on the kind of pressure. If you attack the kid, you're wrong.

If you tell him why he's wrong, you're right.

[Somawas]

16. The kid is right. I'll side with him.

I disagree with what he says, but a little vigorous discussion might just be a good thing in an "educational environment." It is the school system that is being the Nazi in this one.

[cali]

23. baloney. wearing such a thing is disruptive.

frankly, I'm all for schools being authoritarian about this kind of crap. And I'd feel the same way about a student wearing a shirt saying the same thing about McCain.

[tburnsten]

39. I doubt it is disruptive

Content of the shirt notwithstanding, it isn't promoting drug use or showing nudity, or using foul language, it is just stupid and incorrect. Last I knew, it is ok for people to wear stupid and incorrect things to their hearts content, even in a school.


The kids' family might be a little off the deep end but I disagree with the school for suspending him, if they did not have an explicit policy regarding political statements in school before the incident. If they didn't have any explicit rules then the shirt being wrong is no reason to suspend him.

[proud2BlibKansan]

95. Teacher here

Yes, it's disruptive.

[tburnsten]

99. You're going to have to work a little harder than that

to convince me a shirt with an idiotic political statement on it is disruptive to a 5th grade class. Saying you are a teacher and that it is disruptive isn't going to cut it.

[proud2BlibKansan]

109. Sorry I was on my lunch break

Yes it is disruptive because it is controversial. Partisan politics do not have a place in the classroom. And anything that is offensive should not be worn to school. And yes I would say the same thing if it was a shirt criticizing McCain.

[Somawas]

199. Partisan politics absolutely have a place in the classroom.

How else are the little darlings supposed to learn about politics? Calling it disruptive doesn't sit with me. And authoritarianism in schools sucks, in my opinion. It makes schools the perfect little academies of fascism.

[JonLP24]

202. It was according to the superintendent

"This student was not suspended because of a shirt," Barry said of the boy. "He was suspended because of an issue of disruption."

Barry said Aurora students wear hundreds of shirt designs, including some with political slogans, without any incident. However, that was not the case with Daxx Dalton's shirt.

"It was a problem when it started being disruptive," said Barry, who was at the school that day. "A number of kids came to a number of teachers expressing that they were upset. There was shouting and yelling."

The turmoil spilled over from the school yard to a math class, he said.

"When you have a math class, obviously you don't have political science debates," he said.

Barry said students also may have been sensitive to the word "terrorist" on that day, coming a week after the seventh anniversary of the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks.
http://www.rockymountainnews.com/news/2008/sep/24/aurora-school-defends-censure-of-students-t/

[tburnsten]

206. This is new information

And I heartily support the administrations attempt to prevent fighting in the classroom, but I just really hope that they adequately used this golden opportunity to explain to the children the concept of free speech, and how within some needed boundaries it is critical to defend a persons right to express themself, especially politically, even if the content is absolutely idiotic or you couldn't disagree more.

[JonLP24]

210. The article is title "School defends censure of Obama t-shirt"

It was the aftermath of the suspension.

[onenote]

68. gotta disagree with you on this one Cali

Back when I was in school and we were wearing t-shirts, buttons, armbands etc protesting the Vietnam War, the argument was that it was "disruptive". I didn't buy it then and I don't buy it now.

[proud2BlibKansan]

111. And this is probably the first time I have ever agreed with Cali

Times have changed. We didn't beat each other up like kids do today. We didn't shoot each other either :)

[Ohio Joe]

51. I agree

But I might also suggest that child services should investigate for child abuse. Teaching a child to be a bigot certainly should be child abuse.

[tigereye]

133. next it will be the no political t-shirts rule

I'm surprised it wasn't one of those disturbing anti-abortion t-shirts... :(



hmm, wonder if this doozy will end up in court, and then the Supreme Court. I hate when parents work out their own issues on their kids. I bought my kid an Obama t-shirt, but only because he said he wanted one...

[Ian David]

141. Bong Hits for McCain! n/t

[yardwork]

138. I don't think he should have been suspended, either.

I also think that the boy's father is playing the school like a violin.

[seabeyond]

181. kid didnt have to be suspended, he chose to be suspended. n/t

[seabeyond]

180. my son wantts to wear an obama shirt and i said no. i can understand

how this will create a problem in an academic environment that is already tough for hte treachers. i did talk to them about my two kids expressing their different beliefs and they are supportive of that, but i understand, they allow my kid to wear obama shirt and then the flood gates are open to what is allowed.

the school hasnt said no, ... i dont know if they would have issue. not a huge school, my kids are well liked so may not be a problem, but i would not do it to the kid

the child in this piece was purposely being offensive and trying to start shit. kids dont have rights. and this man has nothing to stand on.

[tburnsten]

185. Great parenting!

[seabeyond]

187. thank you.....

i try, wink.

[tburnsten]

190. You're Welcome!

I have a daughter on the way, and I hope I do ok. It'll be an adventure, but I think I might have to get an nice old double barreled 20 guage for cleaning when she hits dating age.





Although the way things are now that would probably be construed as threatening behavior. Maybe it isn't a good idea after all...

[seabeyond]

197. bah hahhaha. oh man

i am telling you. the stories i can tell. the world is a different place than not too long ago. what we do to our youth, and how we mess them up

BUT

it is all doable too from what i am seeing and not so very scaring. stay connected with children, listen to them, respect them and it will come back tenfold, even with all the messed up peer pressure and bringing the adult world to our children at such a young age, too young

the nifty, .... you get a baby and have a lotta lotta time to establish the foundation and the outside world is not a part of. can enjoy, play and have fun

the best to you on the new member of your family. the best

[JonLP24]

201. It was a distraction for other students, that's why the school

got involved with this. They asked him to turn his shirt in sign out (You can't wear pot or beer shirts in any school) and he refused.

[TheCowsCameHome]

5. This kid doesn't have a chance, with an asshole for a father.

Dann should have kept stroking it instead of having kids.

The massage was nothing but a way for Dann to get his hate message out, using a fifth grader as the vehicle.

Christ, what a pathetic idiot he must be.

[AndyA]

6. Atta way, Dann. Raising a good little Nazi I see.

You should be so proud of your efforts.

And what's up with Dann and Daxx? You do know they sound the same, right?

The only loonies in this story are Dann and Daxx. :eyes:

[SheilaT]

42. Excuse me.

I have a nephew who's name is Daniel, goes by Dann. Just a way of distinguishing himself from all those who spell it Dan.

[AndyA]

88. Whatever floats your boat.

Seems a bit tedious to me.

Twig, Tree, Tire, Dang, Dude, and Dilt are all names that could be distinctive as well. :shrug:

Oh, I should mention Track...now there's a name that could really catch on! :rofl:

[HelenWheels]

8. I'm shocked, but I agree with the school

with the sensitivity toward the word terrorist this shirt goes too far. This kid is looking for a fight and schools have a right and a duty to prevent that. If he wore a shirt that said I don't like Obama or the stupidest one I've see - nobama that would be different.

[Ian David]

13. In other words, the language of the t-shirt rose to the level of "fighting words"...

not to mention slander.

[HelenWheels]

62. Yes, I was think of kids and how they push buttons

the schools first duty, even before educating is safety, and this kid was out to push buttons. He could get his point across with less inflammatory and yes, less slanderous words.

[Orsino]

84. Yep, somehow I'm not surprised, though...

...that the family chose for the kid not to go to school.

[kimmylavin]

182. I think they chose that option as their first step in what I'm sure will be a swiftly filed lawsuit.

Sounds like the father and the son were just gunning for a fight.

[tpsbmam]

9. Amazing how right-wingers love the 1st amendment when it's THEIR rights...

but want us to STFU too often and think ours should be curtailed because we're some kind of terrorist sympathizers or some other inane reason. That said, being for freedom of speech means that you accept and defend it for all, even those you wish would STFU.


(Edited to add a damn word I left out!)

[Ian David]

15. I hope The ACLU takes the kid's side and makes the father's head explode. n/t

[tburnsten]

40. That would be the peak of irony

Damn liberal loons running the ACLU can't be trusted you know.

[iamthebandfanman]

65. nah, his head would be fine

right wingers have no problem being hypocrits...

theyd gleefully take the help of the ACLU
and as soon as their case was over
go back to hating them.

[tpsbmam]

110. They already have helped the king of lying sack of shit hypocrites

They've defended the KKK and many other right-wing nutcase groups when it comes to their right to march and speak freely. They also came to Rush Limpdick's defense. http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,108140,00.html

Talk radio host Rush Limbaugh (search) probably never expected the American Civil Liberties Union (search) to become one of his staunch supporters.

But the privacy rights group was on his side Monday when its Florida branch filed a "friend-of-court" motion on behalf of Limbaugh arguing state officials were wrong in seizing his medical records for their drug probe.

"For many people, it may seem odd that the ACLU has come to the defense of Rush Limbaugh," ACLU of Florida Executive Director Howard Simon said in a released statement.

"But we have always said that the ACLU's real client is the Bill of Rights, and we will continue to safeguard the values of equality, fairness and privacy for everyone, regardless of race, economic status or political point of view," Simon said.

[Oak2004]

132. Hey, If I still lived in the area I'd arrange a protest at the school:

you know, carrying signs like "liberals support free speech" :)

[tburnsten]

143. That would be perfect

[lpbk2713]

11. Now OxyRush has a poster boy for the RW Hatemonger Movement

Prepare to be hearing a lot about this kid from the RW Radio Hatemongers.

[asthmaticeog]

14. Immaterial whether the kid or the dad is a jerk, he has a right to wear that shirt.

If there was an actual disruption caused by it, then that's a different story, but I don't see where anyone said that happened. Until I hear otherwise, I'm with the kid on this.

[TheCowsCameHome]

18. I doubt the kid has enough saavy to have done this himself.

Rights or not, the message came from Dann, not the kid.

The kid is being used.

[knitter4democracy]

50. But the kid probably did do it himself.

Fifth graders are smart enough to do something like this, but they're not necessarily aware of how much their parents influence them. He probably really thinks it was all his idea without realizing that, without having any kind of balance in the home when it comes to politics, his dad led him to that behavior.

My daughter's in third grade, and she's really excited about Obama and hates George Bush. Gee, I wonder where she got that. ;)

[Quantess]

149. Maybe the kid made the shirt himself.

To be sure, his family is RW and he has been listening to the adult diatribes against Obama. But, I wouldn't be surprised if this t-shirt was solely the kid's own idea.

[cali]

24. nope. the threat of disruption is enough for the school to disallow it.

[tburnsten]

44. "the threat of disruption"?

I don't understand that statement, and I tend to think that a little disruption every now and again is good for the mind. It just looks like the same justification used for the "don't tase me bro" incident.

[cali]

54. this is elementary school, not college.

And providing a safe learning environment for young children is one of their primary responsibilities. That shirt is simply too provocative for the environment. These are young children.

[tburnsten]

67. Nothing dangerous about an idiotic t-shirt

Unless there was a kid whose parents were as strongly Democrat as this kids parents are republican, then they might get into it.


But I fail to see how the shirt was dangerous in any way. If it was a college than obviously they should be tied to the railroad for attempting to supress any speech except for the obligatory "fire in a crowded theater" example, even if it is dumb. Idiocy and overenthusiasm is a stage in many young peoples developement.

[onenote]

70. wearing a red sox t-shirt in some parts of NY (or vice versa) would be more provocative

But I'd hope no one would ban that.

[cali]

77. if it raises sufficient concern about disrupting the learning environment

I'd hope it would be. For fuck's sake, children are in schools to learn, not to fight over sports teams or politics or anything else.

[onenote]

80. that's what we were told during the Vietnam War, too.

Again, I didn't buy the argument that political speech was inappropriate in a school setting then and I don't buy it now.

[cali]

85. There is no right to free speech in a school setting

you may not buy it, but that's the way it is. Personally, I believe that's the way it should be. Furthermore, this clearly has the capacity to instigate disruptive behavior.

[onenote]

93. actually, there is a significant right to free speech in a school setting

Not a complete right, but a signficant level of protection.

See Tinker v. Des Moines.

[cali]

134. sorry. Tinker has been superceded by other more recent opinions

remember the "bong hits for Jesus" case? And there are others.

http://www.abanet.org/litigation/committees/childrights/content/notes/landmark_01.html

[renie408]

142. But that doesn't mean that students have 'no' right to free speech. Their right is limited when free

speech is determined to interfere with education or inhibits the atmosphere in which learning is supposed to be occurring. I understand that can be broadly interpreted, but it is false to claim that students have 'no' expectation of the right of free speech.

[cali]

146. I didn't say that they don't have any speech rights

simply that schools can make a determination about whether student speech is disruptive.

[renie408]

150. I misunderstood "There is no right to free speech in a school setting"

to mean that students have no expectation of free speech.

As it stands, WE don't have 'free' speech, either. We have a broad right to express ourselves. But even in general public you can't incite a riot or someone to do harm to another and you can't indulge in hate speech. So, because we have some limitations, does that mean that there is no such thing as 'free' speech for anyone?

[onenote]

145. the Bong Hits For Jesus case wouldn't apply here

Its actually quite narrow. As the court stated: P"etitioners urge us to adopt the broader rule that Frederick’s speech is proscribable because it is plainly “offensive” as that term is used in Fraser. See Reply Brief for Petitioners 14–15. We think this stretches Fraser too far; that case should not be read to encompass any speech that could fit under some definition of “offensive.” After all, much political and religious speech might be perceived as offensive to some. The concern here is not that Frederick’s speech was offensive, but that it was reasonably viewed as promoting illegal drug use."

Fortunately, the courts have held that t-shirts with political messages, such as shirts labelling chimpy a chicken hawk, or an international terrorist, can't be suppressed.

[proud2BlibKansan]

124. You are correct, Cali

The rights belong to the school,. not the kids.

[renie408]

140. Actually, that's NOT true. The same types of speech which can be limited

in general society can be limited in a school setting...hate speech, inciting to riot, etc, and a school can also limit vulgar or disruptive speech which interferes with other student's ability to learn. Free speech can potentially be somewhat more limited in schools, but is still protected.

See Bethel vs Fraser or check out this website:

http://www.centerforpubliceducation.org/site/c.kjJXJ5MPIwE/b.1533625/k.38D1/Free_speech_and_public_schools.htm

[proud2BlibKansan]

170. Tell that to the Bong HIts for Jesus kid

[onenote]

194. I suggest you re-read the Bong HIts for Jesus case

Here's what the majority said: "Petitioners urge us to adopt the broader rule that Frederick’s speech is proscribable because it is plainly “offensive” as that term is used in Fraser. See Reply Brief for Petitioners 14–15. We think this stretches Fraser too far; that case should not be read to encompass any speech that could fit under some definition of “offensive.” After all, much political and religious speech might be perceived as offensive to some. The concern here is not that Frederick’s speech was offensive, but that it was reasonably viewed as promoting illegal drug use."

In other words, that case is readily distinguishable from a case where a school attempts to suppress a t-shirt that accuses Obama of being a friend of terrorists (or, for that matter, a t-shirt that labels chimpy an international terrorist).

Schools try to suppress speech all the time. But that doesn't mean that they have the unfettered right to do so or that we should applaud them when they try to do so. Fortunately, the courts have been fairly vigilant on this.

[proud2BlibKansan]

208. But did the bong hits kid win his case?

No.

[Posteritatis]

175. Schools define "disruptive" as "anything we want to forbid but haven't explicitly yet"

It's why damn near every student who gets disciplined for something that as likely as not wasn't wrong or threatening or even academically disruptive is described as, well, being disruptive. Schools are deliberately vague on what constitutes "disruptive" for that purpose; the term's a blank check and meant as a blank check.

[JonLP24]

204. here is this school's definition

The school's dress code prohibits dress or appearance that "cause or are likely to cause a material and substantial disruption to the educational process or school-related activities."

http://www.rockymountainnews.com/news/2008/sep/24/aurora-school-defends-censure-of-students-t/

[Posteritatis]

215. Like I said, in other words (nt)

[last1standing]

25. Calling someone "a terrorist's best friend" is pretty disruptive.

I doubt the school would have allowed a shirt saying "bush* is a complete idiot" or "Let's bomb Iran", either, because these comments are extremely controversial - controversial enough to cause disruption.

Also, public schools should not be made into proxy political battlegrounds for hateful parents from either the left or the right. Kids have enough problems without having to take on mom and dad's.

[HughBeaumont]

59. Absolutely.

Makes it way easier to ID the idiots in our society.

Or in this case, their parents.

Just like the guy I saw at a Borders in Westlake who wore a "It's Adam and Eve, Not Adam and STEVE" shirt. I couldn't make this up if I tried. It just takes that "Don't judge a book by it's cover" cliche and tosses it right the hell out the window. It's a real time saver.

[tburnsten]

69. thats actually pretty funny

but the message is awful. Adam and Steve, hahahahahahahahaa, thanks hugh beaumont, I needed a chuckle.

[WorseBeforeBetter]

156. "Shoot a Yankee for Jesus"

worn by some hillbilly at the Outer Banks. That's my all-time fav for idiocy.

[tburnsten]

186. About as funny!

But the "Adam and Steve" line makes me think of that couple on the Sarah Silverman show, and I can't help but chuckle every time I picture those two clowns.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

75. I think they should have left him alone, but for other reasons.

He could very well have come with a VOTE MCCAIN T-shirt or button, or both, and he'd be unquestionably a-OK. I think that, instead, he put an offensive, inflammatory T-shirt WITH THE PURPOSE OF BEING SANCTIONED AND PLAYING VICTIM.

In light of that, I think they should have let that pass. What would happen next? Seeing that his goal hadn't been reached, he'd come up with something even more offensive, to the point that it'd be 100% sanctionable.

[lightningandsnow]

155. Yup, I agree.

Freedom of speech means nothing if it doesn't protect opinions you don't like.

[JonLP24]

203. There was

More at the link http://www.rockymountainnews.com/news/2008/sep/24/aurora-school-defends-censure-of-students-t/

[Brewman_Jax]

19. Looks like a slander case

use of false statements to defame. Freedom of speech is not freedom to lie.

[madrchsod]

20. a school system has the right to decide what is appropriate wear

that includes what is printed or written on an article of clothing.

[rpannier]

21. I side with the kid unless the school can show how it disrupted the learning environment

"...disrupted the learning environment."

Why does that statement cause me to see Principal Seymore Skinner saying those words?

[JonLP24]

205. Here is something more clearer

"It was a problem when it started being disruptive," said Barry, who was at the school that day. "A number of kids came to a number of teachers expressing that they were upset. There was shouting and yelling."

The turmoil spilled over from the school yard to a math class, he said.

"When you have a math class, obviously you don't have political science debates," he said.

Barry said students also may have been sensitive to the word "terrorist" on that day, coming a week after the seventh anniversary of the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks.

http://www.rockymountainnews.com/news/2008/sep/24/aurora-school-defends-censure-of-students-t/

[Beausoleil]

26. Kids don't really have rights when they enter the school grounds.

They do not have a right against unreasonable search and seizure.

They do not have a right to possess firearms.

They do not have a right to freely assemble.

They do not have a right to a jury trial and against cruel and unusal punishment.

I'm sure there's more.

The school claims the prerogative to prevent disruptive speech. If the t-shirt said "McCain is a traitor to his country", that probably wouldn't be allowed either.


Sorry, this is the way things are and have always been. You may argue that it shouldn't be this way, that kids on school grounds should have all the rights any other citizens have, but it's not that way now.

[unpossibles]

28. thank you.

I was waiting to see this argument - and I am pretty sure there is precedence on this specific right in schools as well.

[Beausoleil]

30. And I didn't even go to public school

I had nuns.

[proud2BlibKansan]

123. Yes thank you

Very true.

The kids do have a right to a safe environment and that would include banning offensive t-shirts

[Sparkly]

27. There are such things as dress codes. The school decides.

If likening a US presidential candidate to a terrorist is against the dress code, that's fine with me.

[gingersnaps1]

52. I am being earnest when I ask this....

Why should it be against the dress code? I don't agree with the message but if the kid has a point of view and wants to wear it on his person then what is the rationale for not allowing him.

If he was wearing a swatistika
A noose
Something that can be noted as hate speech then okay, tell him to take it off

I think that this maybe argue close, but not quite at the level of hate hate speech.

I think the kid has a case.

I am thinking that the school can say that they feared for the safety of the child...I don't know how else they could justify it.

http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/08/12/style.rules/
this article, towards the bottom, has a similar case where the student was successful in getting his suspension overturned.

http://www.aallnet.org/products/pub_llj_v94n01/2002-03.pdf
This has legal citations.

http://www.bmezine.com/news/legal/20050407.html
This has some rules on who makes up the guidelines of what's appropriate

Okay, so I did some minor research. In Tinker v. Des Moines Independent Community School District decided in 1969, a student does have rights. Those rights can be subdued if there are extenuating circumstances.

[gingersnaps1]

29. I hate the message, but I respect his right to say it.

I am siding with the kid on this one.

Unless the shirt had an inappropriate image on it, I am sorry I can't see how this is wrong.

I mean, I guess the school can say it is divisive. But, then that's still censorship and a violation of his right.

Sidenote: I think it's awesome that this 11 year old kid stood up for himself and argued that he will not be censored and protested. The ballsiest thing I did at 11 was pretend to be sick so I could stay home because I didn't want to take a test.

[GTurck]

31. Dad would have...

screamed if a kid wore an anti-McCain t-shirt. For every "liberal loon" there are at least 5 conservative nuts. This father is one of them. Politics has no business in public schools; the boy was urged to be pervocative.
:crazy:

[Fumesucker]

33. LOL. Dann got his wish..

The meme on the front of the shirt has been spread far more widely by the school banning the shirt than it ever would if they had just let the kid continue to wear it.

Well played by the freeper.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

103. True.

But had the school left it be, "Obama is a n***er" probably would have been next.

[tburnsten]

105. And then with absolute justification

the school board could have done exactly what it did this time around, except child services might be able to get involved as well.

[Fumesucker]

114. Why would child services become involved?

No law has been broken and the child, from accounts posted here, was well spoken and intelligent.

[tburnsten]

148. In the theoretical case of sending a kid to school

wearing "Obama is a nigger" t-shirt, I think a decent case could be made that the parent may very well be an unsuitable parent, and that monumental lapse of judgement is a strong indicator that conditions at home could warrant a little state supervision.


This didn't happen, but the post I was replying to had a scenario in which the kid wears something much more offensive after receiving no reaction from his silly shirt he wore this time.

[noonwitch]

34. I agree with the school

The kid was given 3 choices and he still chose to be suspended. No sympathy for him on my part, whatever his politics may be. He's an attention seeker, and so is his dad.

Free speech in schools, public or otherwise, is not guaranteed. Whether it is a t-shirt with an inflammatory message, profanity or a gang symbol, students do not have an absolute right to wear or say whatever they want. School newspapers are censored by either teachers or administrators, for good cause. An irresponsible student editor and writing staff could write columns singling out students for harrassment, and other problems could ensue.

[gingersnaps1]

55. students do have some rights

Tinker v. Des Moines Independent Community School District
http://www.bmezine.com/news/legal/20050407.html

Towards the page there is a similar case.
http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/08/12/style.rules/

[tburnsten]

74. All three of the choices amounted to supression

And it doesn't look like the school has an outright ban on political speech, no matter how dumb and wrong it might be. I think they screwed up by making it a big deal, the best way to deal with things like this is to just look at it as a non-issue, and let the kid get bored. He'll stop on his own soon enough, they always do.

[noel711]

35. That father should do a week's detention....

A shit-head of the first degree.

And instead of suspending the kid, and making him a martyr,
setting him on the path of radical conservatism,
what we do when a kid shows up for any class or event
wearing clothing that might detract from the point of
the class or event: take them to a private room,
inform the kid that of course his opinion is sacred,
(guaranteed by the constitution), but take the shirt off,
turn it inside out, then put it back on. Get back to class.

In light of the fact that you can't falsely yell "FIre!"
in a crowded arena, you can't disrespect the rights of others.
and distract them from their purpose
when they gather for a specific reason.

Certain expressions, either spoken or verbalized
distract others, and may not serve the public good.

Turn that shirt inside out, put it back on,
sit down, and join the class.
YOu can complain but you can't do a damn thing about it.
When mom or dad show up to bitch about it,
ask them what they would do if a classmate wore a shirt
with an 'obscene' picture, or promoting something politically
'controversial'? In a public class room, all those opinions
would be treated the same.

In the public arena, certain things must be handled with care
and equality. Controversy should be served with care.

[Vickers]

36. The kid actually sounds well-spoken and bright.

I hope he soon outgrows his dad's Epic Fail Policy indoctrination.

:thumbsup:

[NeedleCast]

37. Parents using their children as political tools

Seems like a good idea...

[Heather MC]

41. ASS-HOLES Raising ASS-HOLES, I guess nothing can be done!

[NeedleCast]

45. That's a little harsh, don't ya think?

FFS, the kid is 11. His folks are probably the major influence on his political outlook, if he can even be said to have one at this point beyond "my dad is a Republican so I am too."

[Heather MC]

47. The same could be said about Racist raising Racist

[NeedleCast]

48. Yup, that's true

and unfortunate, but age 11 is still a tad early to start labeling children as assholes for doing what the most influential person in their lives at that age do.

[Heather MC]

58. I see your point, However I am a bit of a pessimist sometimes

and I wonder what would happen to that little boy if he grew up and developed a political Identity different from his father. His father seems like the Hawkish type that would
not be very happy about he perceived defiance. In other words, I wonder how much "freedom of speech"
is that little boy really allowed to have.

I am not calling him an "ass hole" at age 11, but I seriously doubt he will be allowed to be swayed from that path once he gets 18.

[tburnsten]

78. Political identity

I try not to put too much stake in a persons political identity as far as their value as a person. Clearly Dann here is someone who we can safely assume is a total jackass, but I think over-polarization is going to be a pitfall we need to avoid in the future. For most people politics are not the deciding factor in how they live their lives, so "democrat" or "republican" isn't nearly as important as the persons actual behavior and lifestyle.


Just saying, there are enough wackos out there that our party can and will benefit hugely from staying cool and collected and continuing to just be the best citizens we can be.

[annabanana]

43. The corrective for speech is MORE, BETTER speech..

Where are the "McCain is a terrorist's best friend" shirts..??

[onenote]

118. haven't seen those: but there are a couple of cases involving Bush: International Terrorist shirts

And, thankfully, the courts have overturned schools that tried to suppress them.
http://www.aclu.org/studentsrights/expression/12854prs20050422.html
http://www.aclu.org/freespeech/youth/11405prs20031001.html

The school in those cases was wrong. And so was the school here.

[SheilaT]

46. Let me see if I understand you on this.

It's okay for a fifth grader to wear a t-shirt that states something that's completely untrue, not to mention slanderous, about a Presidential candidate?

I'm just curious as to whether there was some kid there wearing a t-shirt that said something like "McCain, Family values include abandoning his first wife." Which is actually true. Do you suppose that Dann would have so enthusiastically supported that t-shirt?


I didn't think so.

[bean fidhleir]

102. It's called "freedom of speech", and even kids have it.

It could and should have been used as a "teachable moment" in civics, where the class would discuss truth vs falsity, why free political speech is an important right, whether anything said about a political candidate should ever be suppressed by government, the power of money and when if ever money should have a role in politics, etc.

[knitter4democracy]

49. Students have no constitutional rights.

The courts have already ruled on this one over and over again. They don't have free speech in clothing, they don't have free speech in their newspapers, and they don't have the right to peaceably assemble. The administration was following the law, and I have a feeling this lawsuit-to-be is going nowhere.

[Romulox]

57. Kids' rights may be restricted in school, but they have Constitutional Rights.

Restrictions on children's rights while at school, for example, the freedom of speech, are judged under a relatively lax standard ("legitimate pedagogical purpose" is the verbiage, IIRC.)

But it is 100% false to say they have no Constitutional Rights.

Another good example is the right to be free from unreasonable search and seizure. School kids may be required to submit to random drug tests if they wish to engage in extra-curricular activities. However, up until now, the Court has not approved of randomly drug testing students not participating in such programs--such a random testing regimen would likely violate the children's 4th/14th Amendment rights.

[gingersnaps1]

61. Absolutely!!!

I posted this a couple times already but there are precedents where teh court has ruled in the favor of the students because they have some rights while in school.

It becomes relevant towards the end
http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/08/12/style.rules/

Tinker v. Des Moines Independent Community School was, I believe the first court case to state that students have rights.

[knitter4democracy]

64. But their lockers can be randomly searched.

The argument is that it's not their property. The reality is, students' constitutional rights are severely limited in the schools.

[Romulox]

66. A government employer may also search your desk at work.

The watchword in these cases is "legitimate expectation of privacy".

[knitter4democracy]

108. What about backpacks?

I have personally seen those searched for drugs without the student's knowledge, let alone consent. Those don't belong to the school.

Schools have set it up so that there's zero expectation of privacy. They can search desks, folders, backpacks, coats, anything and everything they want. They've written up draconian dress codes in response to gang symbols and drugs and now anything that might start a fight. Most principals severely restrict free speech in the form of the student newspaper, even underground newspapers that aren't school sponsored, and even what a student can say at a game or in class.

[onenote]

76. but they still have the right to engage in non-disruptive political speech

If wearing an black armband during the Vietnam War was deemed non disruptive, I think a pretty good argument can be made that a t-shirt that conveys a negative message about a candidate for president also is non-disruptive.

[knitter4democracy]

107. Check any dress code.

Anywhere I've been a student or taught, items on shirts and clothing in general have been severely restricted. First for gang symbols and drug paraphanalia and now for most anything other than school spirit stuff. This has held up in the courts, so I don't see this one going anywhere.

[onenote]

115. do you have some links? These cases suggest you may be wrong

http://www.balough.com/news/96200612215.asp

http://www.aclu.org/studentsrights/expression/12854prs20050422.html

http://www.aclu.org/studentsrights/expression/12846prs20040510.html

http://www.aclu.org/freespeech/gen/11264prs20050601.html

http://www.aclu.org/freespeech/youth/11405prs20031001.html

http://www.aclu.org/freespeech/youth/34627prs20071207.html

[knitter4democracy]

162. Goodness knows I hope I'm wrong.

I've never been comfortable with principals saying the kids have no rights in the school. *shudder*

[Alter Ego]

53. I had a friend who got suspended for wearing a "HOME GROWN DOPE"

t-shirt with a picture of Bush's face on it.

If they can suspend kids for that, then that little asshole oughta be suspended as well.

[onenote]

71. the two wrongs make a right argument

They shouldn't have suspended your friend either. Or do you agree that he/she should've been suspended?

[Alter Ego]

73. I don't agree that my friend should have been suspended--but if the rule's going to apply here,

then it should apply to the other side of the aisle as well. All or nothing.

[Oak2004]

129. Did your friend fight the suspension in the courts?

Rights rarely come on a silver platter. You have to fight, and fight hard, for them.

[donco6]

56. I'm so glad my schools have uniforms.

Having to worry about this crap on top of everything else would just push me over the edge.

[proud2BlibKansan]

127. Me too

[donco6]

137. I don't engage in these discussions generally . . .

as most of these "free speech is free speech" types have no idea what it's like in a school.

[proud2BlibKansan]

139. They also don't understand there is no free speech in a school

[onenote]

191. I guess the courts don't understand that there's no free speech is school either

See cases linked in post 107.

[dysfunctional press]

60. this is the kind of shit that school uniforms would render entirely moot.

kids should have school uniforms through high school, imho.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

63. Lame. Idjit. Moron.

An Aurora 11-year-old says his first amendment rights are being trampled after he was suspended for wearing a homemade shirt that reads "Obama is a terrorist's best friend."

Lame.

when students were asked to wear red, white and blue to show their patriotism.

Lame.

The boy's father Dann Dalton describes himself as a "proud conservtive"

Lame.

who has taken part in some controversial anti-abortion protests.

Idjit.

"It's the public school system," Dalton says, "let's be honest, it's full of liberal loons."

Fucking idjit.

Daxx chose suspension.

Moron.

"They're taking away my right of freedom of speech,"

They'z takin way mah raghts of freedum a speesh! Moron.

[Liberalatus]

72. I'm a little surprised that there is so much discussion...

about this. I think some of you might be overthinking this. Say the child wore a shirt saying "<Principle's name> is a friend of terrorists", or "<Teacher's name> is a pedophile" Obviously, they would not be allowed to wear those.

There is freedom of speech, and there are limits, like all of our rights. I'm pretty sure lies and slander fall into that category.

And I find it particularly ironic that the nutjob father actually called the public school "loony". With him directly putting his son in danger, by sending him into a potentially volatile situation, with the intent of stirring up trouble.

AND...someone should call him and the son out for not being a "Patriot", or putting "Country First". On a day where the children were encouraged to show their patriotism, love, and support for this great country, by wearing red, white, and blue, he chose instead to send out a message of hate. Politicizing it, turning a day that was supposed to be positive and uplifting, into a negative and nasty event, twisting the attention to him, and his beliefs, rather than celebrating us all.

[tburnsten]

90. Your examples are a little different

Not the terrorist one, but the "teacher is a pedophile", since that is a statement that could actually result in the teacher being suspended and investigated, plus create a hostile work environment. Obama does not work with Daxx, so the shirt does not create a hostile work environment for him, so the shirt does not have the same anti-discrimination/safe work environment regulations working against it that "teacher is a pedophile" does.

[Liberalatus]

154. That's true...

Bad example, that one...

Cheerfully withdrawn

[tburnsten]

188. I am getting a weird feeling

Like I have been defending dann and daxx too much. Maybe it's time for me to withdraw from this thread, but I just have some very strong social libertarian tendencies, except where others are harmed, and this silly kid wasn't really hurting anyone, just making an ass of his family.

[iamthebandfanman]

79. are you smarter than a fiiiiiiiifth graader

welp, we know the answer for his father ;)

[Ilsa]

81. I'd rather just see kids wearing "pro-" candidate shirts, not anti-, but if

the school opened the door for it, then they have to allow it. "Anti" shirts can get insulting and demeaning and create behavior issues. My preference would have been for this kid to wear a McCain t-shirt, not a libelous one.

As a parent, I tend to prefer schools having a dress code to prevent excessive distractions. The more the kids abuse dress codes, the more likely a school district is to say "screw it, we're going to require uniforms: everyone must wear khaki pants or skirts and polo tops."

[Obamarama]

82. What is it with these people and their names? Adding extra consonants where they make no sense...

Daxx? Dann?

Do they have another son? Dexxter perhaps? Jimm?

[onenote]

94. why do you care?

There are all sorts of names out there. I hear my repub in-laws make fun of the names that some African-American atheletes have all time and I think its racist and absurd when they do it. I'm not going to give a pass to a "progressive" that thinks its okay to sit in judgment of how anyone names their children. I grew up with what was a pretty uncommon biblical name. It wasn't always easy, but I wouldn't hesitate to bloody the nose of anyone that suggested that my parents were whacky for giving me a name other than John or Tom or Bobby or James.

[MrScorpio]

83. Slander isn't free speech

The kid could have worn a pro-McCain shirt and all would be good

[npk]

100. Dang, beat me to it.

Exactly what I was going to say. You can't just put anything on a T-Shirt and call it free speech. Then again not too surprised that a "proud conservative daddy" wouldn't understand it, especially Sean Hanity makes a living spewing such lies and distortion.

[onenote]

116. No. The school cannot engage in a prior restraint.

If Obama wants to bring a suit for defamation, he can. But that doesn't give the school a right to engage in a prior restraint. The same goes with respect to the wearers of these shirts, who also I would hope would be protected from any prior restraint by the schools (and in fact, have been):


http://www.balough.com/news/96200612215.asp
http://www.aclu.org/studentsrights/expression/12854prs20050422.html

[SweetieD]

153. Public school students do not have an absolute right to free speech on public school property.

They do have the right to have dress codes, including dress codes which restrict unqualified free speech.

[onenote]

178. sorry, but the case law differs with you on the wearing of t-shirts with political messages

see cases linked in post 107

Schools like to claim that they can shut up students whenever and however they want. The court consistently disagree, at least when political speech (as opposed to speech that is indecent or that advocates illegal acts) is involved.

Based on the case law, the school is wrong here.

[EFerrari]

113. Thank you. n/t

[Guaranteed]

160. It's not slander- he's a public figure and it's an opinion/hyperbole anyway. nt

[Guaranteed]

161. Plus, we say that about Bush all the time here. nt

[CitizenPatriot]

86. but I thought the terrarists

luved McCain...after all, aren't they planning an october surprise meant to assist one John Liar McCain to get into office on his debunked, dubious and yet bought by his dumb-enough constituents "foreign policy and war experience"?

Me so confused.

Terr-a-rists attack country on Puke watch. Country votes for Puke again, only he can keep them safe. Another attack, cuz they want a Puke in office...but the terr-a-rists are friends with Obama?

Oh, Logic....The pukes are no friend of thee.

[Ian David]

87. See also: 'Bong Hits 4 Jesus' case limits student rights

'Bong Hits 4 Jesus' case limits student rights


By Bill Mears
CNN Washington Bureau
• High Court considers students' First Amendment rights
• Case involves student's "Bong hits 4 Jesus" banner at event
• School argues principal had right to punish student for drug message
• Student, now 24, said he was not promoting drugs



WASHINGTON (CNN) -- The Supreme Court ruled against a former high school student Monday in the "Bong Hits 4 Jesus" banner case -- a split decision that limits students' free speech rights.

Joseph Frederick was 18 when he unveiled the 14-foot paper sign on a public sidewalk outside his Juneau, Alaska, high school in 2002.

Principal Deborah Morse confiscated it and suspended Frederick. He sued, taking his case all the way to the nation's highest court.

The justices ruled that Frederick's free speech rights were not violated by his suspension over what the majority's written opinion called a "sophomoric" banner. (Watch the banner unfurl and launch a legal battle Video)

"It was reasonable for (the principal) to conclude that the banner promoted illegal drug use-- and that failing to act would send a powerful message to the students in her charge," Chief Justice John Roberts wrote for the court's 6-3 majority. Breyer noted separately he would give Morse qualified immunity from the lawsuit, but did not sign onto the majority's broader free speech limits on students. (Opinionexternal link)

More:
http://www.cnn.com/2007/LAW/06/25/free.speech/index.html

[onenote]

192. Bong Hits case easily distinguishable

As even the majority in the Bong Hits case said: "Petitioners urge us to adopt the broader rule that Frederick’s speech is proscribable because it is plainly “offensive” as that term is used in Fraser. See Reply Brief for Petitioners 14–15. We think this stretches Fraser too far; that case should not be read to encompass any speech that could fit under some definition of “offensive.” After all, much political and religious speech might be perceived as offensive to some. The concern here is not that Frederick’s speech was offensive, but that it was reasonably viewed as promoting illegal drug use."

The t-shirt was offensive. But that doesn't give the school the unfettered right to suppress it.

[Ian David]

214. Agreed. The kid's sister had an anti-Obama shirt that was NOT offensive and they let her wear it. nt

[dkofos]

89. I want to be a dumbass just like Dad!!

[Dukkha]

91. if he hates the public school system that's "full of liberal loons" so much

why isn't he home scholling? He can than instill all his hate teachings from his favorite text books Mein Kampf and The Turner Diaries. But something tells me he's too lazy and dim witted to do even that.

[Dorian Gray]

92. Since I would be

very upset if someone was kicked out for wearing a similar anti-McCain T-shirt, I have to be consistent and say that I don't approve of this action.

[AlCzervik]

98. i bet ole dad has his son hold signs at anti choice rallies reading "My Mommy didn't abort me"

My daughter has an Obama shirt purchased with her own money, her choice, not mine.

[yurbud]

101. the kid has a right to make a fool of himself. K-12 administrators has serious boundary issues

they can't make the distinction between what may offend them personally and what is actually disruptive or dangerous.

[tburnsten]

106. Absolutely

As someone who was basically expelled from a boarding school (that I was paying for, against my will) over a magazine I found in the schools' mailroom, I can tell you that many administrators are very caught up in appearing to look like they are doing something and often greatly overstep their boundaries. Much of the time they get away with it, unfortunately.

[Catherine Vincent]

112. That little punk for looking for attention.

But the school was wrong for suspending him.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

117. Most schools have policies against racism.

I see no problem here.

[onenote]

119. where is the racism?

And are you saying its okay for a school to ban the shirt in question, but not okay to ban the shirt involved in these cases?
http://www.aclu.org/freespeech/youth/11405prs20031001.html
http://www.aclu.org/studentsrights/expression/12854prs20050422.html

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

120. Where it called Obama a terrorist.

Duh.

Are you saying the schools don't have the right to protect their students from racism?

Or are you saying Obama is the moral equivalent of Bush?

[onenote]

121. I'm saying that free speech is free speech

and that calling Obama a terrorist is stupid in many ways, but its no more "racist" than calling chimpy a terrorist.

Apparently, you are of the view that any labelling attached to Obama is racist because he's African American. That's absurd and the one person I know who would agree with me is Obama.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

122. I'm saying schools have a right to ban racism from their campus.

"and that calling Obama a terrorist is stupid in many ways, but its no more "racist" than calling chimpy a terrorist."

Yes, you're saying that. But you're completely full of shit when you're saying it. Please don't play dumb.

[onenote]

125. THere is dumb on this thread. But its not coming from me.

Dumb is saying that a t-shirt labelling Obama a friend of terrorists is "racist". Its many things, but saying its racist is absurd given that there are shirts calling chimpy a terrorist as well. You are saying that every criticism of Obama is racist. THat's dumb. A criticism (as is the allegation that he's a friend of terrorists) can be absurd, false, stupid, but not be racist.

On edit: there are t-shirts, signs, etc that attack Obama using racial imagery and words. This isn't one of them.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

126. A t-shirt labeling Obama as a terrorist is racist.

You know it. I know it. Everybody knows it.

You can go ahead and defend racism all you want to, but don't expect people to play games and pretend it's not racism.

[onenote]

128. I don't know it. You may think it. Not everyone would agree with you

including,I would bet, Senator Obama himself.

ANd the idea that I'm defending racism is outrageous shit.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

130. Yeah, you do.

Who are you trying to kid?

[onenote]

136. Sorry, but I'm done with you. You've used up my entire quotient of dealing with stupid for today

Go be stupid with someone else.

[tburnsten]

196. Uh-oh. A spurious claim

Backed up by "you know it, everyone knows it". That is usually the prime marker of total bullshit.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

157. Ask yourself: Why would anyone label him a terrorist?

I never heard anyone say "John Kerry is a terrorist"

Care to take a gander why they would say it about Obama, and not about Kerry?

[onenote]

177. they said it for the same reason that they said it about Kerry

The premise of your post proves my point, so thanks.

The t-shirt in question labelled Obama "terrorists best friend".

That was basically exactly what was being said about Kerry during the 2004 election:

http://mediamatters.org/items/200409210011

It was stupid and wrong when it was said about Kerry. It is stupid and wrong when its said about Obama.

But its not racist.

[Dorian Gray]

179. But people

call George Bush a terrorist all the time. It has nothing to do with his race or his background, but with his actions while in office.

People who choose to call Obama a terrorist may do so because of the mistaken notion that he is Muslim, which would be racist. Or it may be ignorance based upon his prior association with William Ayers, not racist.

Both arguments would be ignorant, but only one would be racist.

[Name removed]

135. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[renie408]

144. Disruptive aside, could it be considered hate speech? n/t

[onenote]

147. would it be any more hate speech if it the shirt was about chimpy?

There are shirts labelling chimpy an international terrorist. No one would suggest those shirts are "hate speech" would they? If it was the exact same shirt and it had a picture of Obama instead of of chimpy, what would make it hate speech? If the answer is that Obama is African American, then by extension you'd be arguing that any t-shirt with a message critical of Obama with his picture would be hate speech, which obviously is ridiculous.

If it was a picture of Hillary, would it be hate speech?

[samuraiguppy]

151. as a progressive I support free speech even

when it does not agree with me.

How many people remember about a week ago, one of our DUers was complaining because a teacher did not want her child wearing Obama stuff? I was supportive of her daughter expressing her pro-Obama opinion--and I am supportive of this child expressing their opinion.

I disagree with them--but do not believe in stifling anyone. If we start down this path--who is next?

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

152. Dumbasses. When Will These Morons Learn That They Don't Have An Unstoppable Right To Free Speech

within a public school environment? Morans.

[Mind_your_head]

158. They should have just let the little guy wear his shirt, no comment, no fuss,

no agreement/disagreement - and then he and his shirt would go home at the end of the school day. People in his 'local sphere' would see it, think their thoughts about it (or not), maybe discuss it at home or with family/friends (or not). That's more how free speech/free thought is SUPPOSED to work, isn't it?

[proud2BlibKansan]

164. And when another kid at school gets upset about it, he will just stay quiet, right?

:sarcasm:

[Mind_your_head]

166. IF another kid gets upset about it,

which prolly wouldn't happen b/c most 11 years old aren't into politics (most kids probably wouldn't understand the shirt one way or another and just be like "whatever")....but for the ones that DO - or the teachers that DO - let social discourse (and social darwinism) take it's course.

Reasonable things to say (if you say anything at ALL ~ instead of just snicker at the dumb*ss) to the kid with the shirt would be:

Hey! Where'd you get that shirt? You made it? Why?

What's that saying supposed to mean?

Do you really believe that? Why?

I don't believe that, but "you've got a right to say whatever" (all the while thinking 'what a dumbass')

etc.

I seriously doubt the kid could answer any/most any of that very well (heck, most freepers couldn't answer that/explain their beliefs very well.)

The shirt didn't change or form any opinions in the little school or town of Aurora, CO, but now that it's on national 'news', that little $8 teeshirt "hit its mark".
-----------

Free speech. "I may not agree with what you say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it" - even if it's something "I" believe to be 'moronic'. Once you stunt/stop that "other guy's" right to free speech, you stunt/stop your OWN right to free speech (and free speech on teeshirts :eyes:) to say what you believe ~ which may be a better way of thinking (or not).

Just to be clear, the saying on that shirt was wrong, stupid, and utterly moronic, imo. If I were a teacher at that school I probably would've kindly chuckled at the kid and asked him why he was wearing that shirt. After a few minutes talk, I'd bet he had NO IDEA why he was wearing that shirt (or what it meant). If he had some wrong information, I'd do my best to 'set him straight' and then "not make a BIG DEAL" and send him on his way home at the end of the day. His parents probably 'drilled' him when he got home about "what happened at school today? Any comments on your shirt"?

Sometimes ignoring obvious flamebait ~ just like most of us here on DU have learned to do ~ is the best/kindest response.

Peace and free speech (even on teeshirts) for all,
M_Y_H

[proud2BlibKansan]

167. I spend my days with 11 year olds

No way would any 11 year old say "you've got a right to say whatever".

At my school that kid would be beat to a pulp before any conversations about the shirt could take place. Our kids love Obama.

So yes, it's disruptive and shouldn't be worn to school.

[Mind_your_head]

168. I don't know what subject you teach, but perhaps you should

teach them about Voltaire and about "I may not agree with what you say, but I'll defend to the death you're right to say it". And originating concepts of "free speech".

And just a suggestion, which you probably already know, but I'll just clarify:

It's better to say that you love Obama's ideas, the way he handles people, situations, you love the direction that he wants to take this country in, etc. Rather than, 'our kids love Obama' (just b/c he's a democrat or whatever). It's better to state WHY Obama is lovable to you (or the kids).....THAT's what they are following in this 'leader', not 'him', per se, but his ideology, his technique, his brillance, whatever truly captures you/them ~ and why you should follow him (and why one should stop following him once he should stop doing those things that you respect, should that ever occur). Otherwise you're just like any dumb*ss that "pulls the lever" (wish we still had levers or pencil/paper, but I digress....) b/c there is a "D" or an "R" after the name.

Peace,
M_Y_H

[proud2BlibKansan]

169. Have you been in a school lately?

We teach kids to take tests. We don't talk politics.

It's also not appropriate for me to tell the kids who I am voting for and why. My job is to teach them HOW to think, not what to believe.

[Mind_your_head]

171. *Gasp* ........ by your own words

"We teach kids to take tests" and "My job is to teach them HOW to think, not what to believe" (to be good, right, and true?)

-----------

[donco6]

193. She was being sarcastic about the tests, dumbass.

And no, you haven't been in a school lately.

[proud2BlibKansan]

207. Hence the hypocrisy of school in a No Child Left Behind world.

:)

[iamthebandfanman]

212. apparently IT DID make other children mad

and also apparently it was causing a disruption and was turning into a potential fight. so says the superintendant

[Citizen Jane]

183. As a former public school teacher (highschool)

The first thing that popped in my head about that age group (11 year olds) is that most people know middle school sucks in part because of the roiling hormones and subsequent identity crises. At my daughter's private school which has multi-aged grouping, the one group they keep isolated with homogenous age grouping is the 11 year olds. From a growth-puberty standpoint it is a tough age for kids and emotions can run wild.

That being said, I can see how the t-shirt could be construed as disruptive. As a kid who could be fairly introverted at that age and who was politically active (working on the Carter-Mondale campaign) that shirt would have bugged the shit out of me, but I would never have confronted the kid wearing it because I would have been scared to do so. I can assure you that I would not have been alone in my sentiments.

As adults we can think about Voltaire and idealistic intellectual approaches to freedom and liberty, but when it comes down to it we are talking about kids. Limitations on free speech are, unfortunately, often necessary to keeping a school environment where all kids feel safe learning and when t-shirts expressing negativity (and, quite frankly, basically promote lies) are introduced into the mix the mood turns decidedly awful quite quickly.

The options offered the kid are standard. When I was a kid (in Florida) you weren't even allowed to wear Mr. Zog's sex wax t-shirts to school because they were considered disruptive (you know, SEX...I don't think the administration knew that it was surfboard wax), but you were given the option of turning it inside-out, changing, or one-day suspension. That was 30 years ago! When I taught in the public schools 20 years or so ago it was the same thing. If your shirt depicted sexuality, profanity, or drug-related stuff you had the same options.

Is this right? Depends. Depends on history of stuff at the school, depends on safety issues, depends on whether or not the kid is a known bully who would try to pick a fight by provoking others with his "free speech." I'm guessing that, based on the description of the story, there is more history here than we know about.

No, I'm not trying to say that freedom of speech ought to be denied to kids in public schools. I do, however, think that there are levels of disruption that might not be so obvious to us as post-pubescents.

Flame away at me. I have to get ready for teaching the college kids where MY freedom of speech is not so restricted as it was in the public schools!!!

:hi:

[donco6]

195. It actually WAS disruptive.

It caused a fight on the playground before he even got inside.

[donco6]

184. It caused a fight on the playground before he even got inside.

While on the school playground that morning, Daxx and other students got into a shouting match over the shirt, Superintendent John Barry said.

When the argument spilled into first-period math class, Daxx was sent to the principal's office. He was given the option of turning the shirt inside out, wearing a shirt provided by the school or going home and changing into something else and coming back to class.

Daxx didn't like any of those options, so district officials suspended him.




http://www.denverpost.com/news/ci_10541233

[The Straight Story]

163. Banned, gets on the news, now millions have seen it versus a few

Looks like he got his message out after all...

[slackmaster]

189. DING DING DING!

We have a winner!

Thanks for another of your frequent clear-headed perspectives, TSS.

[pokerfan]

165. This kid and his POS father were on H&C

Neither seemed particularly bright. The father started off by calling Colmes and the teachers a bunch of pansies. The father doesn't really let the kid speak for himself or apparently think for himself much either.

He seemed especially upset about fair trials for people accused of terrorism. :shrug:

[Trillo]

172. DISRUPTIVE: Class, oh CLASS ..(chatter in background).. SHUT UP! (silence) Thank you

The longer I live, the more I realize that history just keeps repeating itself.

Sister Mary Elephant and Cheech and Chong.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kk5UnA7aQ4s

Maybe one day we can ALL have complete bliss and silence.

[brettdale]

173. Classy teeshirt

The msm will make him out to be a real hero, if someone from the left had of worn a teeshirt like that about palin, the msm will call them a pinhead.

[asteroid2003QQ47]

174. Students were asked to wear red, white and blue to show their patriotism?

How fucked up is that!?

[onenote]

198. update on story:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x4075269

Not reflected in the original story: it appears that the kid's shirt did cause an actual disruption. In that case, the school was justified in asking him to change it. In other words, the school didn't engage in a prior restraint. They responded to an actual problem.

That,as a legal matter, makes a lot of difference.

Thus, I stand by what I've said generally about student's free speech rights, as confirmed by numerous cases. But based on these new facts, I no longer think the school is in any jeopardy for its actions.

[edbermac]

200. So? Let's send these T-shirts to that school for the kids to wear.

Fair's fair.

[morgan2]

209. while I'm usually for free speech

is this any less bad than if the shirt said Obama is a nigger? or Hillary is a cunt? It's not a political statement, its inflammatory hate speech. Public school doesn't have to 100% protect free speech. Its one thing to wear it on the street, its another to wear it to a place of learning and distract entire classes.

[Sebastian Doyle]

211. Now dad can homeschool the little bastard

Which will ensure the kid is every bit as fucking stupid as he is. :puke:

[OmahaBlueDog]

213. I don't see where they can suspend the kid for this

It's protected political speech

It's not overtly racist

I think Tinker v. Des Moines covers this one.