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Two Americas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-23-08 04:42 PM
Original message
The "economy" explained
We are being bombarded now by people "explaining" the "economy" to us. Which economy are they talking about? We do have two economies - that is why we have two Americas: the haves and the have nots. We have the economy of the investment class, and we have the economy of the rest of us - working, producing things and providing services of real value, and struggling to survive.

People would learn more from watching "It's a Wonderful Life." Do we help out George Bailey and his neighbors, or hand over the keys to Mr. Potter?

This business of trying to bamboozle people with esoteric double talk reminds me of getting a sales pitch from a "financial products" sales person.

Let's look at some of the arguments that the zealous defenders of the market are trying to force on us.

The credit freeze, for example. Banks send money back and forth every day. That means there is a short term loan thing happening so that they can keep track of which bank owes which bank what. yes, that was freezing up, and yes that meant we were just hours away from bank closings, runs on banks etc. Big problem, absolutely, with possible dire consequences for all of us.

We can look at that one of two ways. Either we use that to scare people into submission so that the system can be patched back up before the natives get too restless and heads roll, and hope that the ponzi scheme can be revitalized; or we can use that to build public demand for overthrowing the entire rotten financial system, bringing the scam artists to justice, crushing the whole supply side deregulation bullshit permanently, and giving relief to the millions who have been suffering at the hands of the financial scammers.

Either way we "do something." Either way the government intervenes. Either way we head off violent revolution. It is a false choice to say that either we bail the crooks out OR we will be "doing nothing" or have a depression, revolution, etc.

Now we are hearing that "we don't have the money" so we need to give up programs for social and economic. justice. Don't tell me "we don't have the money." That is the biggest lie out there. Who is this "we" who doesn't have the money? Yes, "we" the little people don't "have the money" - it has all been stolen from us, and "stolen" is not too strong a word. It may be true that "we" - remember us, the folks who are not in the investment class? - cannot and should not tend to the needs of the people AND pour billions more into Wall Street to bail the scammers out and help them keep their game going.

So...

Yes, we "don't have the money" to both help the people and subsidize the investment class. That has always been true, long before this crisis. They are saying that therefore the people lose out. That is a dream come true for the right wingers and wealthy and powerful. "Oh sorry folks your needs will have to wait. The money manipulators game - the game that screwed us all over in the first place! - is in trouble, so all money and power must go into their hands first. Get to the back of the line and shut up!"

This is all so unspeakably dishonest and immoral and politically reactionary that it takes my breath away.

Yes, what we "have" as an economic system is a long way from "pure" capitalism, Adam Smith blah blah. So what? We have financial manipulators running amok and putting the whole population of the world at risk, and we are supposed to conjure up glorious visions in our minds of "pure" capitalism? That is insane.

Now - the New Deal talk. We have people saying "don't get me wrong I think a New Deal would be great, but..." followed by the usual excuses and waffling.

The New Deal could not have happened if there were not many voices, many people who were far to the Left from the New Deal program. On the other side were the people arguing for the wonderful market. There were far more people on the Left, but the people on the right had more money and power. The New Deal was the compromise - halfway between the people and their advocates and champions on the Left and then on the other side the few - the pro-big business, pro-market people. It requires strong voices on the Left to have anything like the New Deal.

Here we are. Leftists. Strong voices. The necessary and essential ingredient in what the market defenders SAY they would favor - New Deal politics. Yet they are fighting tooth and nail, doing everything they can to confuse people, to ridicule people on the Left and to claim that the Leftists and critics and dissenters are a danger to people, that they don't know history, that they don't understand economics, that they are untrustworthy and that they are pushing some hidden personal agendas or advocating violent revolution or causing a depression.

Those are lies. There isn't a nice word for it, sorry.

Listen to the double talking experts if you like. I'm going with George Bailey.

George-

"I thought when we put him on the board of Directors, he'd ease up on us a little bit. What's eating that old money-grubbing buzzard anyway? He hates everybody that has anything that he can't have. He hates us mostly, I guess."

...

Peter -

"You know, George, I feel that in a small way we are doing something important. Satisfying a fundamental urge. It's deep in the race for a man to want his own roof and walls and fireplace. And we're helping him get those things in our shabby little office."

...

Potter -

"You see, if you shoot pool with some employee here, you can come and borrow money. What does that get us? A discontented, lazy rabble instead of a thrifty working class. And all because a few starry-eyed dreamers like Peter Bailey stir them up and fill their heads with a lot of impossible ideas."

....

George -

"Wait! Wait for what? Until their children grow up and leave them? Until they're so old and broken-down that they... Do you know how long it takes a working man to save five thousand dollars? Just remember this, Mr. Potter, that this rabble you're talking about... they do most of the working and paying and living and dying in this community. Well, it is too much to have them work and pay and live and die in a couple of decent rooms and a bath? Anyway, my father didn't think so. People were human beings to him, but to you, a warped, frustrated old man, they're cattle. Well, in my book, he died a much richer man than you'll ever be."

George -

"Now listen...now listen to me. I-I beg of you not to do this thing. If Potter gets ahold of this Building and Loan, there'll never be another decent house built in this town. He's already got charge of the bank. He's got the bus line. He's got the department stores. And now he's after us. Why? Well, it's very simple. Because we're cutting in on his business, that's why. And because he wants to keep you living in his slums and paying the kind of rent he decides. Joe, you had one of those Potter houses, didn't you? Well, have you forgotten? Have you forgotten what he charged for that broken-down shack? Here, Ed. You know, you remember last year when things weren't going so well, you couldn't make your payments. You didn't lose your house, did you? Do you think Potter would have let you keep it? Ca-Can't you understand what's happening here? Don't you see what's happening? Potter isn't selling. Potter's buying. And why? Because we're panicky and he's not. That's why. He's picking up some bargains. Now, We-We can get through this thing all right. We-We've got to stick together, though. We've got to have faith in each other."

We've got to stick together. We've got to have faith in each other.

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tblue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-23-08 04:45 PM
Response to Original message
1. "We've got to have faith in each other." But not in Repuglicans and their fat cat friends.
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Two Americas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-23-08 05:07 PM
Response to Reply #1
7. nor....
Nor in those who, while claiming to be our friends, are working against us from inside the party relentlessly.

Franklin Delano Roosevelt -

The royalists of the economic order have conceded that political freedom was the business of the Government, but they have maintained that economic slavery was nobody's business. They granted that the Government could protect the citizen in his right to vote, but they denied that the Government could do anything to protect the citizen in his right to work and his right to live.

Today we stand committed to the proposition that freedom is no half-and-half affair. If the average citizen is guaranteed equal opportunity in the polling place, he must have equal opportunity in the market place.

These economic royalists complain that we seek to overthrow the institutions of America. What they really complain of is that we seek to take away their power. Our allegiance to American institutions requires the overthrow of this kind of power. In vain they seek to hide behind the Flag and the Constitution. In their blindness they forget what the Flag and the Constitution stand for. Now, as always, they stand for democracy, not tyranny; for freedom, not subjection; and against a dictatorship by mob rule and the over-privileged alike.

The brave and clear platform adopted by this Convention, to which I heartily subscribe, sets forth that Government in a modern civilization has certain inescapable obligations to its citizens, among which are protection of the family and the home, the establishment of a democracy of opportunity, and aid to those overtaken by disaster.

But the resolute enemy within our gates is ever ready to beat down our words unless in greater courage we will fight for them.


But the resolute enemy within our gates is ever ready to beat down our words unless in greater courage we will fight for them.

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tblue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-23-08 11:00 PM
Response to Reply #7
30. Do the Dems in Congress have any idea how much we'd have their back if they'd just show some spine?!
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Indenturedebtor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-23-08 04:49 PM
Response to Original message
2. K + R - and if the bailout is needed pay for it by taxing the HELL out of the rich
The money is there to pay for it indeed :evilgrin:
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curious one Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-23-08 04:50 PM
Response to Original message
3. They keep taking our money. Just think how many programs can be funded by $700 billion.
Heath care, education, tax relief, highway and bridges, and etc. etc. etc. ...
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bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-23-08 04:52 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. And homes for us homeless people.
Yes, I do believe this is part of the plan.

Redistribution of wealth, indeed.

:nuke:
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TBF Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-23-08 06:13 PM
Response to Reply #4
16. That crap about putting Warren Buffet, Romney et al on an
oversite committee (a McCain quote I saw yesterday) is beyond ridiculous. The oversight committee should be staffed by homeless and low-income folks.
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bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-23-08 07:54 PM
Response to Reply #16
23. "The oversight committee should be staffed by homeless and low-income folks. "
:applause:

I think I love you.... :hi:
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Two Americas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-25-08 03:07 AM
Response to Reply #16
53. yes, absolutely
Great post tonight from CatIn Seattle -

Some of us knew (the financial crisis was coming)

Low income people knew. We are the canaries in the mine as far as jobs, job security, any government or union support, and benefits are concerned. None of those things have been part of our scenario for decades ~ and we were maligned in the '60s and '70's for the little support we got. Even in the "good" economic times, which were for everyone else but us. The best times for the working poor, if you want to call it that, was in the Clinton years when McJobs actually had crappy "benefits" with healthcare so expensive with deductibles, you could not use it and a "retirement package" that was just a savings account for the CEOs to use when they wanted to rip it out from under the workers that made them rich to buy another yacht.

I know of a cabinet company that went under here in Woodinville WA in 2000 whose workers, many barely above minimum wage, had 20 years or more time into their company and the CEOs took all their retirement money (legally of course) and left these hard workers high and dry. BTW it had a "union" who could care less about their workers. The union president regularly partied with the company high ups. Now one of these CEOs is a famous wine maker (Hogue Wineries) and the rest went on to rake in the dough, THEY didn't hurt. Most low income workers would not expect to get even a "special" benefit to get a Costco membership.

We DID try to tell upper income people what was going to happen to them because our granddaddies told us that it always works this way; if it worked with the poor with little outcry, it would go up the scale. See, the poor were and are the "unwashed masses." We get the trickle of piss going down the legs of society. But when we tried to tell you what was comin' we were called fools and other names. Right here in DU sometimes.

So if you want to know what's comin' next for you, ask a poor person. By the very nature of what is going on with them, will be an indication of what is comin' for you.

Just sayin' ...

Cat In Seattle

http://www.democraticunde...dress=389x4077987#4083585
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blindpig Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-23-08 04:57 PM
Response to Original message
5. .
Edited on Tue Sep-23-08 05:00 PM by blindpig
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asdjrocky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-23-08 05:06 PM
Response to Original message
6. It's good to read your words again TA.
It's been too long. Great read, and yes, it made sense to me. (We both know how hard that is.)

Sometimes I think the internet was invented to keep us all apart. As long as we're spilling our guts on our keyboards, within the four walls of our home, library or internet cafe, then we can't assemble. We can't riot. We can't scream revolution if all we are doing is writing about it.

Perhaps America is too big for the change we need. Perhaps we should stop thinking in terms of Constitution and country and start thinking in terms of community and sustainability. I don't know. Perhaps the questions are too big, and the answers too far away.

Great movie by the way, and a wonderful place to draw inspiration. I never quite saw the film as a struggle between the left and right, and the haves and have nots, and now I'll look at it differently.

Do me a favor though, leave Field of Dreams alone. For me, that's still just about me and my Dad.
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Two Americas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-23-08 05:10 PM
Response to Reply #6
8. hey Rocky!
Good to see you! Hope all is well with you.

Writing is important, don't doubt that. "The pen is mightier than the sword."
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asdjrocky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-23-08 05:14 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. I do agree with you on that one.
But again, where is this getting us? Say we plan a revolution here... and where does it go? Do we get out of our chairs and do something? They wrote the declaration, and then they had to fight for it.

Who's writing the declaration? Is it you? Me? Has it already been written?

I do hope you're doing well. I've now been out of work since feb, and not much is on the horizon. I thank the powers that be that I have a house that's paid for, and at least some of my family is still working. These days, with our country, and my personal finances I feel that any light at the end of the tunnel is just the oncoming train.
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Two Americas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-23-08 05:47 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. that sucks
Sorry to hear that you are struggling. I am really worried that work and income is going to be getting more and more scarce. Money and opportunities seem to be getting tighter and tighter everywhere you look.

The plan, as always is to organize workers, feed and house the people, protect the public resources. Rabble rousing has to precede all that. The everyday people are moving, and now that they have started to move in resistance to the "free market" right wing lies and scams, they won't stop moving that direction. There are little signs everywhere, and there is no going back. For the first time, I am hearing everyday people say "we need another New Deal." That represents a big change. This "lull before the storm" period we are in is very difficult, and things are moving slowly. That is mostly because our friends are resisting, are hesitant, are frustrating us and arguing with us, from Pelosi to people right here. But keep your eyes open, because you have a lot to offer and the time is coming soon when your contributions will be needed and valued. Don't despair.
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asdjrocky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-23-08 05:50 PM
Response to Reply #10
12. What doesn't kill us makes us stronger.
Edited on Tue Sep-23-08 05:51 PM by asdjrocky
I was sincere when I said I missed reading your words. How goes the site?

What would you think of a national work stoppage? Or a day of now consumption? How many people do you think would go for that?
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Two Americas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-23-08 06:37 PM
Response to Reply #12
18. thanks
It is going well. Miss your essays, and those from Mythsaje too.

A national work stoppage would get a lot of support, I think. The people are tired of the right wing culture war nonsense, and Democrats should stop taking the bait. Politics is about power and economics, not "personal values" and the rest of the stuff that the right wingers suckered us into fighting with them about, while their wealthy and powerful clients rob all of us blind.

If Obama started strongly advocating New Deal politics right now, his election would be assured. That would also give him a solid basis upon which to successfully lead and govern once he was elected. But McCain and Gingrich sound more like FDR right now then our candidates do, and those resisting pressuring the Democrats to move toward New Deal politics claim they are doing that to "support" the candidates, and accuse us of "hurting the nominee" or being disloyal. Strange times.
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Greyhound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-23-08 05:47 PM
Response to Reply #9
11. In honor of the new American way, we can just cut and paste the old one
and claim we wrote it.

I'd like to propose a discussion of adopting FDR's second Bill of Rights, though.
:kick:


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TBF Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-23-08 05:54 PM
Response to Reply #11
14. Dennis' email this morning was terrific - esp. nos. 5&8
The American taxpayers should get equity for bailing these jerks out, and I'd love to see full disclosure from every congressperson of their holdings in said firms. Let's see who they're really working for.
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Two Americas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-23-08 06:43 PM
Response to Reply #11
20. “The Economic Bill of Rights”
Franklin D. Roosevelt
“The Economic Bill of Rights”
Excerpt from 11 January 1944 message to Congress on the State of the Union

It is our duty now to begin to lay the plans and determine the strategy for the winning of a lasting peace and the establishment of an American standard of living higher than ever before known. We cannot be content, no matter how high that general standard of living may be, if some fraction of our people—whether it be one-third or one-fifth or one-tenth—is ill-fed, ill-clothed, ill-housed, and insecure.

This Republic had its beginning, and grew to its present strength, under the protection of certain inalienable political rights—among them the right of free speech, free press, free worship, trial by jury, freedom from unreasonable searches and seizures. They were our rights to life and liberty.

As our nation has grown in size and stature, however—as our industrial economy expanded—these political rights proved inadequate to assure us equality in the pursuit of happiness.

We have come to a clear realization of the fact that true individual freedom cannot exist without economic security and independence. “Necessitous men are not free men.” People who are hungry and out of a job are the stuff of which dictatorships are made.

In our day these economic truths have become accepted as self-evident. We have accepted, so to speak, a second Bill of Rights under which a new basis of security and prosperity can be established for all—regardless of station, race, or creed.

Among these are:

The right to a useful and remunerative job in the industries or shops or farms or mines of the nation;

The right to earn enough to provide adequate food and clothing and recreation;

The right of every farmer to raise and sell his products at a return which will give him and his family a decent living;

The right of every businessman, large and small, to trade in an atmosphere of freedom from unfair competition and domination by monopolies at home or abroad;

The right of every family to a decent home;

The right to adequate medical care and the opportunity to achieve and enjoy good health;

The right to adequate protection from the economic fears of old age, sickness, accident, and unemployment;

The right to a good education.

All of these rights spell security. And after this war is won we must be prepared to move forward, in the implementation of these rights, to new goals of human happiness and well-being.

America’s own rightful place in the world depends in large part upon how fully these and similar rights have been carried into practice for our citizens.
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TBF Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-23-08 05:51 PM
Response to Original message
13. Rally on Wall Street Thursday - (also a K&R for you 2A)
Edited on Tue Sep-23-08 05:51 PM by TBF
This from Naomi Klein's website -

No Bailout for Wall Street -- Protest on Wall Street this Thursday at 4pm!

Call to Self-Organize

Note: Naomi Klein is not organizing this protest, she is just helping get the word out about it. If you would like more information, please contact Arun Gupta at ebrowniess@yahoo.com.

(read entire article at the link)

We have everything we need to create a large, peaceful, loud demonstration. Millions of others must feel the same way; they just don’t know what to do. Let’s take the lead and make this the start!

AGAIN:
When: 4pm – ? Thursday, September 25.
Where: Southern end of Bowling Green Park, in the plaza area
What to bring: Banners, noisemakers, signs, leaflets, etc.
Why: To say we won’t pay for the Wall Street bailout
Who: Everyone!
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balantz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-23-08 05:56 PM
Response to Original message
15. Right arm, T.A.!
"We've got to stick together. We've got to have faith in each other."

Farm out! :P
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Two Americas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-23-08 06:40 PM
Response to Reply #15
19. no, no, no
LEFT arm!

Farms? IN! not out.

:spank:

:rofl:
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cornermouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-23-08 06:19 PM
Response to Original message
17. kick.
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waiting for hope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-23-08 07:22 PM
Response to Original message
21. Kick, rec and Double Kick.
Thanks TA - Makes me hate the Mr. Potters in this world even more..:grr:
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earth mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-23-08 07:23 PM
Response to Original message
22. Great OP! It's a Wonderful Life is my all time favorite film because good triumphs over evil
I love how good guy George triumphs over the evil corrupt Mr Potter!

A most Excellent post! Bravo! :applause:
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The Leveller Donating Member (49 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-23-08 08:03 PM
Response to Original message
24. A Brief History of Economic (Mis)measurement

The GDP has been the touchstone of economic policy for so long that most Americans probably regard it as a kind of universal standard. (In 1991 the government switched from the old GNP to the GDP, for reasons we will discuss later.) Actually the GDP is just an artifact of history, a relic of another era. It grew out of the challenges of the Depression and the Second World War, when the nation faced economic realities very different from today's. Through history economic measurement has grown out of the beliefs and circumstances of the era. As Western economies went from agriculture to manufacturing to finance and services, modes of measurement generally evolved accordingly. But during this century, and especially since the war, the evolutionary process has slowed to a crawl. The market economy has continued to change radically. In particular it has penetrated deeper and deeper into the realms of family, community, and natural habitat that once seemed beyond its reach. But even as this change has accelerated, the way we measure economic health and progress has been frozen in place.

...

These developments set the course for economic policy and reportage for the next fifty years. The ironies have been many. If it is odd that liberal Democrats would turn the principles of a war economy into the permanent template for government, it is no less so that Republicans would latch fervently onto a measure of well-being that was basically a tool of central government planning.

...

By the curious standard of the GDP, the nation's economic hero is a terminal cancer patient who is going through a costly divorce. The happiest event is an earthquake or a hurricane. The most desirable habitat is a multibillion-dollar Superfund site. All these add to the GDP, because they cause money to change hands. It is as if a business kept a balance sheet by merely adding up all "transactions," without distinguishing between income and expenses, or between assets and liabilities.

...

Something similar happens with the natural habitat. The more the nation depletes its natural resources, the more the GDP increases. This violates basic accounting principles, in that it portrays the depletion of capital as current income. No businessperson would make such a fundamental error. When a small oil company drains an oil well in Texas, it gets a generous depletion allowance on its taxes, in recognition of the loss. Yet that very same drainage shows up as a gain to the nation in the GDP. When the United States fishes its cod populations down to remnants, this appears on the national books as an economic boom--until the fisheries collapse. As the former World Bank economist Herman Daly puts it, the current national accounting system treats the earth as a business in liquidation.

...

http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/ecbig/gdp.htm">If the GDP is Up, Why is America Down?
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waiting for hope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-23-08 08:58 PM
Response to Original message
25. Kicking again.
Just cuz I can .... ;)
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Two Americas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-23-08 09:26 PM
Response to Original message
26. Edwardians
There sure is a lot of talk out there about the economic crisis. I can't count how many times defenders and apologists for the free market, Wall Street, and the upper class have taunted and asked "oh yeah then what are your ideas?" and then accused us of advocating violent revolution, of being ignorant or too idealistic, of being "fringe" and "purists," and just about every other insult imaginable. Well, here we are. But not much interest, is there?

As Edwards supporters, we all have been through being attacked because of the faults of "our favorite" and no matter how many times we said that it was the message that Edwards was delivering - not the man, not the personality, not the object of hero worship - that led us to support the Edwards campaign, we still were characterized as being infatuated with the messenger, and people denied that there could be anything valuable in the message that we were supporting.

Well, here we are.
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Greylyn58 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-23-08 09:31 PM
Response to Original message
27. Well Done Two Americas!!
This is a must read in my book.

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waiting for hope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-23-08 09:44 PM
Response to Original message
28. Just giving it one more ....
:kick:
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TBF Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-23-08 10:21 PM
Response to Original message
29. "We've got to stick together. We've got to have faith in each other."
Why anyone would have faith in BushCheneyCo and their advisors after the last eight years is beyond my capability of understanding, and giving them a blank check to bail out these thugs is reprehensible. This is not rocket science. Just.say.no.bailout.
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hfojvt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-23-08 11:24 PM
Response to Original message
31. except that there are more than two economies, and more than two Americas
Too many on DU divide America into the Haves and the Have-squats and seem to think that 90% of the country does not have squat. Which cannot even be true in most of our lives. Except for our publicized ability to see the glass as totally empty.

So yeah, I'd like to see the trucks that deliver groceries to my local stores keep running, and for the power plant which delivers electricity to my house to keep running.

Attackers of the market don't seem to realize how much we all, except for the homeless (and even they are living on the scraps) depend on this system. Taking glee in a potential collapse seems worthy of ridicule to me.
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Two Americas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-24-08 01:25 AM
Response to Reply #31
35. so misleading
No one here expressed taking any "glee in a potential collapse."

No one here is "attacking markets." What we are doing is attacking the idea that we must be ruled by markets, that we and our labor are mere commodities, that we must place profits over people. You may disagree, but I think that on a Democratic party board there is a place, or should be, for our viewpoint.

You say that we have no idea how independent we all are upon markets. The free marketers seem to have no idea how dependent the market is on the workers. I would say that is the point of view that is not heard - one that places Labor above capital, people over markets, people over profits. We continually hear the point of view about how dependent we all are on the market. There must be a place for the opposite view, for the view that is most consistent with the traditional principles and ideals of the Democratic party and the Labor movement.

We are arguing for an economy that serves people, rather than an economy that we are all forced to serve.

What I am expressing is no more and no less than a mildly left wing position. Your defense of the superiority of capital over labor is the essence of right wing politics. You are saying that without the money people, everything would collapse. The traditional Democratic party and Labor position is that without the workers everything would collapse - that the workers would survive without the financial people, but the financial people would not survive without the workers.

People worked and lived and thrived in communities long before the financial manipulators arose. The financial manipulators could never exist, however, without the workers.

I have no problem with you expressing a pro-market pro-capital conservative view. But is there not also a place here for a pro-Labor view?

There is much confusion about this - the relationship between Labor and capital, and the political significance of how we see that relationship. I think Lincoln put it well and in terms that er easy to understand. You are arguing a point of view far to the right and in 180 degree opposition to what Lincoln is expressing here.

"Labor is prior to and independent of capital. Capital is only the fruit of labor, and could never have existed if labor had not first existed. Labor is the superior of capital, and deserves much the higher consideration."

It is not needed nor fitting here that a general argument should be made in favor of popular institutions, but there is one point, with its connections, not so hackneyed as most others, to which I ask a brief attention. It is the effort to place capital on an equal footing with, if not above, labor in the structure of government. It is assumed that labor is available only in connection with capital; that nobody labors unless somebody else, owning capital, somehow by the use of it induces him to labor. This assumed, it is next considered whether it is best that capital shall hire laborers, and thus induce them to work by their own consent, or buy them and drive them to it without their consent. Having proceeded so far, it is naturally concluded that all laborers are either hired laborers or what we call slaves. And further, it is assumed that whoever is once a hired laborer is fixed in that condition for life.

Now there is no such relation between capital and labor as assumed, nor is there any such thing as a free man being fixed for life in the condition of a hired laborer. Both these assumptions are false, and all inferences from them are groundless.

Labor is prior to and independent of capital. Capital is only the fruit of labor, and could never have existed if labor had not first existed. Labor is the superior of capital, and deserves much the higher consideration.
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hfojvt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-24-08 11:12 AM
Response to Reply #35
45. I am certainly not arguing for the superiority of capital over labor
What I am arguing for is a functioning system. The system requires a stable money supply, and as it currently operates, requires banks. The bankruptcy of a Lehman Brothers may provide a little schadenfreud, but since We Are All In This Together, a string of them could take down the entire system. The system that keeps the trucks and the power plants running. This is not Lincoln's day when the majority of this country still had their own 40 acres and grew and canned, hunted, fished, and dressed their own food. Except for minor amounts of gardening and farmers' markets, food now comes processed and from a grocery store.

We are united, perhaps, in wanting to change these systems, make them more inclusive and humane, more respectful of those who work hard in them, more compassionate towards those who cannot find a place in them, but I think that "letting it fall" and then picking up the pieces is no more likely to give us a better result than letting Katrina wipe out New Orleans gave us a better New Orleans or Fat Boy gave us a better Nagasaki.

We currently serve the economy AND the economy serves us. It provides the vast majority of Americans with a decent living. Many are never satisfied with the living they have, always wanting more, always finding something to complain about or worry about, but in the big picture we have it pretty good - even under the Bush misadministration.
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Two Americas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-24-08 02:19 PM
Response to Reply #45
47. responses
I think that "let it fall" is a straw man argument. That isn't what I am saying. Quite to the contrary. I am saying protect the economy - the real economy, the economy of the working people, the economy that feeds the population - from the predators. I am saying do not bail out, support and subsidize those who are preying on our economy.

I don't agree that the economy serves the people, nor that it "provides the vast majority of Americans with a decent living." Perhaps in your neighborhood things are fine.

I don't agree with the idea that we discard political ideas from the past because "times have changed." Principles and ideals are eternal. I agree that the right wingers want us to believe what you are saying here.

I don't agree with keeping system that is inherently and profoundly not inclusive and humane, not respectful of those who work hard in them, not compassionate, accept that, defend that, and then claim that we can compensate for that by working within that system to improve it. That is a way to simultaneously hold two contradictory positions. This is the untenable and illogical position that modern liberalism has placed us in. We are for it and against it at the same time. We try to have ot both ways. This serves to neuter and cripple the Left and the working class.

I work in the food industry, and the traditional political and social model for agriculture is what feeds the people, not something new and modern. Also, food in particular should not be seen as a free market commodity. All of the problems with hunger and shortages are being caused by the assault on the food production system by the free marketeers.
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hfojvt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-24-08 06:56 PM
Response to Reply #47
48. the traditional model of food is for people to mostly grow and preserve their own
that is simply no longer true. Lincoln's statement about the many farmers who were neither employers nor employed is no longer true. Those are facts, not a generic statement that 'times have changed'.

I don't know all that much about my neighborhood, or the lives of quiet desperation my neighbors may be living. I do know, however, that the median family income in Kansas is over $50,000. Half of all Kansas families are making over $50,000. Many more must be making over $35,000.
I make $14,000 a year and I have all kinds of luxuries - high speed internet, cable TV, a WMP player, a laptop or two, a digital camera, scores of DVDs, two dogs, etc., etc., etc. So I think that a family making over $40,000 should be doing pretty good.

Yet, according to the DU conventional wisdom, somebody with my income CANNOT make it, is barely surviving. That life in America sucks for all of us. I just cannot buy it.

You cannot protect the real economy of working people without protecting the banking system. I think people are dependent on it and that it is possible for a huge crisis to bring it all down. Because we do have a faith-based economy.
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Two Americas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-24-08 07:22 PM
Response to Reply #48
49. life is good then
Glad to hear your life is so good.

"You cannot protect the real economy of working people without protecting the banking system."

You have made yourself clear. That is a legitimate point of view. I hope you can see that anyone who is even mildly left wing will disagree with you, and will see it exactly the other way around.

But I am not asking that your opinion be suppressed or even debated or refuted. All I am asking is this - can an alternative point of view, a view that is more in alignment with the traditional Left, with Labor and with the historic Democratic party positions be tolerated and heard here? Or must we all side with big finance, must we all be free marketeers or else be subjected to abuse and ridicule and dismissal?



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hfojvt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-25-08 02:12 AM
Response to Reply #49
50. you keep saying that
as if I am some sort of Republican and this is not left wing

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/hfojvt/81

or this

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/hfojvt/89

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/hfojvt/74

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/hfojvt/71

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/hfojvt/67

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/hfojvt/55

I am definitely part of the working class and have considered myself a socialist since 1985, BUT I am not left wing enough to believe that the destruction of the financial system is gonna benefit the working class. If "letting it fall" is a strawman, then what alternative are you proposing? Big finance and all the CEOs can eat sh*t and die for all I care, but I, myself, a working class janitor and temp have about $35,000 in the bank and $40,000 equity in my home that I would like to retire on someday. That represents payment for about 6,250 hours of my work that I never spent the rewards of. I saved it, in the hope that I could retire on it some day. I would like to see that protected. If the supposed traditional left wants to laugh at a financial tsunami or the potential for one, as if that is automatically a good thing, then I think it deserves some ridicule.
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Two Americas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-25-08 02:50 AM
Response to Reply #50
51. there you go
Thanks for that. Now we are talking. I know where you stand. We are on the same team.

Of course the crisis needs to be faced and managed. No one is laughing about that. No one is saying let it fall. I am furious, not happy or laughing. No one is naively hoping for some romanticized revolution. I know working people are going to get hurt. But damn, let's not talk about how wonderful the capitalist system is. Let's not create these artificial divisions between us. I poosted about "it's a Wonderful Life" for two reasons - to make the point that by outting the little people first and pulling together we will sooner get through this, and also because that de-mystofoes the economy for people and gives them a way to think and talk about it that isn't fear-driven or so dense and esoteric and academic that only the few can comprehend it.

There are all sorts of alternatives being put forward. I just heard Bernie Sanders on NPR talking about that.

Alternatives



Robert Reich -

If you think the Bailout of All Bailouts (whose details will be worked out over the coming week) won't saddle American taxpayers with billions, if not trillions, of risky obligations, you don't know politics -- especially in an election year when members of Congress are eager to get home to campaign; when the incumbent lame-duck president (who was he?) has all but vanished, leaving his hapless Treasury Secretary, a former investment banker, to take the lead and the heat; when voters are in high anxiety over the economy and Wall Street is melting down; when the executives of every financial powerhouse in America have staked lots of money on campaigns in both parties and have indundated Washington with lobbyists.

In other words, watch your wallets. The tab here could be very high. If everything goes extremely well, markets move upward, and the risky loans become far less risky, it's possible that taxpayers (that is, the Treasury) might actually make money. But if the bottom falls out, American taxpayers could be on the hook for trillions of dollars. What then? The federal debt soars. What then? Interest rates go out of sight. What then? Foreigners lend us less money. What then? We're cooked.


But there's no reason taxpayers need to be involved in this.

Whether you call it a reorganization under bankruptcy or just a hellova fire sale, the process should resemble chapter 11 under bankruptcy. Any big financial institution that wants to clear its books can opt in. But the price for opting in is this: Investors in these institutions lose the value of their equity. Executives lose the value of their options, and their pay (and the pay of their directors) is sharply limited. All the money from the fire sale goes to making creditors as whole as possible.

Meanwhile, policymakers work on a new set of regulations to ensure transparency on Wall Street -- governing disclosures, minimum capital requirements, avoidance of conflicts of interest, and better ensurance against stock manipulation -- so that, once the bad debts are off the books, the new numbers can be trusted.


The bailout is a massive swindle, and the public is being black mailed. "Give us trillions to play with so we can keep our game going and keep robbing you all blind, or we will destroy the economy."

Problems are: (1) It's not likely to do all that much good because no one knows how much bad debt there is out there. Even if the government bought a lot of it, investors and lenders still couldn't be sure how much remained. After all, big banks have already written down hundreds of billions of bad debts, and that hasn't restored confidence in the Street. As the economy slows, bad debts will grow. Again, the problem isn't a liquidity or solvency crisis; it's a crisis of trust.

(2) However much bad debt there may be, that amount is surely far greater than the $394 billion of real estate, mortgages, and other assets that the old RTC bought from hundreds of failed savings-and-loans -- thereafter selling them off form whatever it could get for them. The Bailout of All Bailouts would therefore put taxpayers at far greater risk than they are even today, and require an unprecedented role for government in reselling assets. Another major step toward socialized capitalism.

A better idea would be for the Fed and Treasury to organize a giant workout of Wall Street -- essentially, a reorganization under bankruptcy, for whatever firms wanted to join in. Equity would be eliminated, along with most preferred stock, creditors would be paid off to the extent possible. And then the participants would start over with clean balance sheets that reflected new, agreed-upon rules for full disclosure, along with minimum capitalization. Everyone would know where they stood. Bad debts would be eliminated. Taxpayers wouldn't get left holding the bag. And there would be no "moral hazard" incentive for future financial wizards to take giant risks with other taxpayers' money.

Congress, the Fed, and the Administration shouldn't be giving more help to Wall Street. Policymakers should focus instead on people who really need a safety net right now -- workers who have lost or are about to lose their jobs, who need extended unemployment insurance and health insurance for themselves and their families; homeowners who have lost or are likely to lose their homes, who need additional help meeting mortgage payments and reorganizing their debts; and people who have lost or are in danger of losing their savings or pensions, who need better insurance against possible loss.

The only way Wall Street's meltdown doesn't spill over to Main Street is if policymakers begin to pay adequate attention to the people whose wallets really keep the economy going, and who merit more help than the Wall Street tycoons whose carelessness and negligence have put it in such jeopardy.


Will Democrats step up for us, or cave in and sell us all down the river?

Step up now, starting with Obama, and the Democrats sweep into office with massive support and the Republicans are finished politically for a generation or more. Play it safe and cave in, and we are all in for a world of hurt.

Kucinich -

Protecting the public interest in any economic "bailout"

Dear Friend,

The U.S. government has been turned into an engine that accelerates the wealth upwards into the hands of a few. The Wall Street bailout, the Iraq War, military spending, tax cuts to the rich, and a for-profit health care system are all about the acceleration of wealth upwards. And now, the American people are about to pay the price of the collapse of the $513 trillion Ponzi scheme of derivatives. Yes, that’s half a quadrillion dollars. Our first trillion dollar compression bandage will hardly stem the hemorrhaging of an unsustainable Ponzi scheme built on debt "de-leverages."

Does anyone seriously think that our public and private debts of some $45 trillion will be paid? That the administration's growth of the federal debt from $5.6 trillion to $9.8 trillion while borrowing another trillion dollars from Social Security has nothing to do with this? Does anyone not see that when we spend nearly $16,000 for every family of four in our society for the military each year that we are heading over the cliff?

This is a debt crisis, not a credit crisis. Just as FDR had to save capitalism after Wall Street excesses, we have to re-invigorate our economy with real - not imaginary - growth. It does not address the never-ending war on the middle class.

The same corporate interests that profited from the closing of U.S. factories, the movement of millions of jobs out of America, the off-shoring of profits, the out-sourcing of workers, the crushing of pension funds, the knocking down of wages, the cancellation of health care benefits, the sub-prime lending are now rushing to Washington to get money to protect themselves.

The double standard is stunning: their profits are their profits, but their losses are our losses.

This bailout will not bring real jobs back to America. It will not bring back jobs that make things. It does not rebuild our schools, streets, neighborhoods, parks or bridges. The major product of this financial economy is now debt. Industrial capitalism has been destroyed.
In the next few days I will push for a plan that includes equity for every American in any taxpayer investment in this so-called bail-out plan. Since the bailout will cost each and every American about $2,300, I have proposed the creation of a United States Mutual Trust Fund, which will take control of $700 billion in stock assets, convert those assets to shares, and distribute $2,300 worth of shares to new individual savings accounts in the name of each and every American. I will also insist that all of the following issues be considered in whatever Congress passes:

1. Reinstatement of the provisions of Glass-Steagall, which forbade speculation

2. Re-regulation of the finance, insurance, and real estate industries

3. Accountability on the part of those who took the companies down:
a) resignations of management
b) givebacks of executive compensation packages
c) limitations on executive compensation
d) admission by CEO's of what went wrong and how, prior to any government bailout

4. Demands for transparencey
a) with respect to analyzing the transactions which took the companies down
b) with respect to Treasury's dealings with the companies pre and post-bailout

5. An equity position for the taxpayers
a) some form of ownership of assets

6. Some credible formula for evaluating the price of the assets that the government is buying.

7. A sunset clause on the legislation

8. Full public disclosure by members of Congress of assets held, with possible conflicts put in blind trust.

9. A ban on political campaign contributions from officers of corporations receiving bailouts

10. A requirement that 2008 cycle candidates return political contributions to officers and representatives of corporations receiving bailouts

And, most importantly, some mechanism for direct assistance to homeowners saddled with unreasonable or unmanageable mortgages, as well as protection for renters who have lived up to their obligation but fall victim to financial tragedy when the property they live in undergoes foreclosure.

These are just some thoughts on the run. You will hear more from me tomorrow.

Dennis J Kucinich
www.Kucinich.us
216-252-9000 877-933-6647



Norman Markowitz -

A Radical Alternative to Bush's Radical Bailout

Both confusion and anger reign for most people across the political spectrum about the $700 billion "bailout" of Wall Street banking and brokerage houses, which the Bush administration is trying to force through Congress right now. The administration portrays the choice as being between bailout or disaster, trying to marginalize debate to create a fait accompli.

First, there really is a far-reaching fiscal crisis and something has to be done quickly to contain it. But Paulson and the Bush administration trying to "socialize" the losses of major institutions of finance capital on the assumption that the benefits will then trickle down to the masses of people, who will then stop losing their jobs, homes, and pensions.

...

When people are bankrupt or simply cannot pay the debts they have incurred, they are put on a repayment plan. So why not Wall Street? People everywhere are understandably outraged by the vast personal wealth that the top executives of these Wall Street firms have accumulated. But the Bush administration hasn't even mentioned repayment.

Just as Franklin Roosevelt proposed a salary limitation for corporate executives during World War II in order to show sacrifice for the war effort, both compensation caps and payback plans for CEO's and CFO's whose wealth ranges from the tens of millions to the hundreds of millions can and should be enacted. Also, since the capitalist class loves regressive payroll taxes for Social Security and Medicare, a serious program of reregulation could establish an excess profits fund and attach it to FICA, in effect to make the capitalist capitalist class begin to pay directly a much bigger partof social security and allied programs while reducing the payroll taxes on working people.

Such suggestions might be antidotes to radical right-wing economic policies, which that the nation has long endured and have produced the disaster that we face today.

What is, as all labor negotiators always ask, the benefit for working people and the country in this unprecedented bailout? At present there is no benefit except the usual trickle-down promises. A reasonable position for all non big business sectors of the society to take should be to say: no benefit for working families, no bailout. As all labor negotiators know, the more desperate big capital's position becomes, the more concessions they are willing to make.

http://www.politicalaffairs.net/article/articleview/7448/


Bernie Sanders -

More Say No to Wall Street Bailout by Middle Class

Senator Bernie Sanders has been joined by more than 23,000 citizens in a letter to Treasury Secretary Henry Paulson calling for a surtax on the very wealthy to bankroll any bailout of Wall Street. “Any plan to clean up the mess on Wall Street must ensure that middle income and working families are not the ones who are paying for this bailout,” the letter says. The phenomenal outpouring of support came in the two days since the letter was posted on Sanders’ Senate Web page.

Meanwhile, House Banking Committee Chairman Barney Frank (D-Mass.) reiterated his support for Sanders’ proposal for a five-year, 10 percent surtax on income over $1 million a year for couples and over $500,000 for single taxpayers.

Frank and Sanders were interviewed today on the National Public Radio program “On Point.” The banking committee chairman said he first voiced support for Sanders on Sunday on the CBS News program “Face the Nation.”

“I think this strengthens the argument for a surtax on the wealthiest people in this country who are among those who made these mistakes. We are unfortunately in a situation -- it’s almost as if we let them take the economy hostage but not having appropriate financial regulation,” Frank said. “I do think at this point the people who make over $1 million a year, a surtax on their incomes, that’s one way to get the people who made these mistakes to contribute to the cost of undoing it.”

Sanders proposal is for a five-year, 10 percent surtax on income over $1 million a year for couples and over $500,000 for single taxpayers. That would yield more than $300 billion in revenue to cover losses the government will incur when it resells troubled mortgages it acquires from banks.

He also called for a major economic recovery package to put Americans to work at decent wages, a return to stronger regulation of businesses, and the breakup of giant corporations like those that got the country and Wall Street into the crisis. “If a company is too big to fail, it is too big to exist,” Sanders said.

http://www.sanders.senate.gov/news/record.cfm?id=303545


Bernie Sanders: Bailout Transfers Wealth - Upward
by John Nichols

Here's what Sanders says -- and what Obama and the Democrats should be saying:

For years, as a member of the House Banking Committee and now as a member of the Senate Budget Committee, I have heard the Bush Administration tell us how "robust" our economy was and how strong the "fundamentals" were. That was until a few days ago. Now, we are being told that if Congress does not act immediately and approve the $700 billion Wall Street bailout proposal these "free marketers" have just written up, there will be an unprecedented economic meltdown in the United States and an unraveling of the global economy.

This proposal as presented is an unacceptable attempt to force middle income families (and our children) to pick up the cost of fixing the horrendous economic mess that is the product of the Bush Administration's deregulatory fever and Wall Street's insatiable greed. If the potential danger to our economy was not so dire, this blatant effort to essentially transfer $700 billion up the income ladder to those at the top would be laughable.

Let us be clear. If the economy is on the edge of collapse we need to act. But rescuing the economy does not mean we have to just give away $700 billion of taxpayer money to the banks. (In truth, it could be much more than $700 billion. The bill only says the government is limited to having $700 billion outstanding at any time. By selling the mortgage backed assets it acquires -- even at staggering losses -- the government will be able to buy even more resulting is a virtually limitless financial exposure on the part of taxpayers.) Any proposal must protect middle income and working families from bearing the burden of this bailout.

I have proposed a three part plan to accomplish that goal which includes a five-year, 10% surtax on the income of individuals above $500,000 a year, and $1 million a year for couples; a requirement that the price the government pays for any mortgage assets are discounted appropriately so that government can recover the amount it paid for them; and, finally, the government should receive equity in the companies it bails out so that when the stock of these companies rises after the bailout, taxpayers also have the opportunity to share in the resulting windfall. Taken together, these measures would provide the best guarantee that at the end of five years, the government will have gotten back the money it put out.

Second, in addition to protecting the average American from being saddled with the cost, any serious proposal has to include reforms so that we end the type of behavior that led to this crisis in the first place. Much of this activity can be traced to specific legislation that broke down regulatory safety walls in the financial sector and allowed banks and others to engage in new types of risky transactions that are at the heart of this crisis. That deregulation needs to be repealed. Wall Street has shown it cannot be trusted to police itself. We need to reinstate a strong regulatory system that protects our economy.

Third, we need to address the needs of working families in this country who are today facing very difficult times. If we can bail out Wall Street, we need to respond with equal vigor to their plight. That means, for example, creating millions of jobs through major investments in rebuilding our crumbling infrastructure and creating a new renewable energy system. We must also make certain that the most vulnerable Americans don't freeze in the winter or die because they lack access to primary health care.

Finally, we need to protect ourselves from being at the mercy of giant companies that are "too big to fail," that is, companies who are so large that their failure would cause systemic harm to the economy. We need to assess which companies fall into this category and insist they are broken up. Otherwise, the American taxpayer will continue to be on the financial hook for the risky behavior, the mismanagement, and even the illegal conduct of these companies' executives.

These are the last days of the Bush Administration, the most dishonest and incompetent in modern American history. It is imperative that, at this important moment, Congress stand up for the middle class and for fiscal integrity. The future of our country is at stake.

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Two Americas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-25-08 03:04 AM
Response to Reply #50
52. more alternatives
Experts Oppose Bailout; Suggest Better Alternatives
http://www.gopolitico.com/2008/09/experts-begin-to-oppose-bailout.html

This financial bailout has the put the taxpayers in an impossible situation. We are being held up at gun point by a class of people who have rules and systems that only they understand. There is a gun to the head of the American people, in the form of economic collapse and the ransom demand is $700 billion. How are we, as taxpayers, supposed to understand the need for, or lack of a need for, and implications of this bailout. We must look to experts, but not experts in the political sphere. Unbiased experts. Plenty of those experts see this plan the way I do, as an unnecessary transfer of wealth from the middle class to the wealthy.

Krugman -

Krugman of the NYT says, "the more I think about this, the more skeptical I get about the extent to which it’s a solution." He also says that any government intervention should "take the form of public injections of capital" into the banks for equity stakes.

http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/09/21/thinking-the-bailout-through/


Zingales -

Luigi Zingales, a distinguishable professor at the University of Chicago, has come out clearly against this bailout. His criticism, in its simplest form, is that it taxes the many for benefit of the few. He also makes an interesting point, "for 6 of the last 13 years, the Secretary of Treasury was a Goldman Sachs alumnus." The Treasury's views on these issues are, to put it nicely, somewhat favorable to Wall Street. He suggest simpler, less expensive, alternative plans.

http://faculty.chicagogsb.edu/luigi.zingales/Why_Paulson_is_wrong.pdf


Hussman -

John P. Hussman, PHD, also of the University of Chicago has put together a detailed alternative. Hussman's criticism is the same, a transfer of that magnitude from the taxpayer to the private sector is not the best solution. He suggest a somewhat complicated, but much more equitable plan than what Treasury is proposing.

http://www.hussmanfunds.com/wmc/wmc080922.htm


We, the taxpayer, have no idea whether Secretary Paulson is correct in his assessment of this situation, but we all suspect something smells fishy. When you ask for $700 Billion to go to Wall Street banks, on its face it is suspect. When I see PHDs in economics agree with that sentiment on economic and ethical grounds, I feel much stronger in that conviction.

http://www.gopolitico.com/2008/09/experts-begin-to-oppose-bailout.html
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Two Americas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-25-08 03:13 AM
Response to Reply #50
54. more...
Edited on Thu Sep-25-08 03:13 AM by Two Americas
Wall Street Bail Out Plan Must Be Fixed

Frank Llewellyn
DSA National Director

Bailout Plan Values Wall Street Corporations and Sovereign Wealth Funds Ahead of Working and Middle Class Americans

This week the federal government is contemplating what would be the largest bailout of the financial sector—banks and debt holders in particular—ever attempted. We are given only a price tag, $700 billion or perhaps as much as 1 trillion dollars. The administration proposal—really Treasury Secretary and former Goldman Sachs Chairman Henry Paulson’s proposal—provides no mechanism for oversight and no checks on the authority of the Treasury Department to administer this plan.
Worse, the plan only addresses one facet of the threat to the economy.

Paulson wants to shore up financial institutions by removing the so-called “bad” debt from their balance sheets. His plan assumes that this action by itself will restore confidence in financial institutions and that these in turn will begin lending to each other and to businesses and consumers.

However, without measures that strengthen the overall economy by stimulating economic growth and increasing employment and wage levels, the economy can only slow further and evince the negative growth that is the hallmark of a recession. Unless the Feds force changes in these financial institutions’ practices, there is every possibility that the bailout will reward the very individuals that created this mess in the first place.

Paulson’s plan is another example of vulgar socialism for the rich, the only kind of socialism that corporate elites and their media howler monkeys seem to like. The administration hopes that by waiting until the last moment and stirring fears of an enormous crisis that it will be able to force Congress to back its plan. Congress must insist on provisions that will put the country back on the path to economic growth and restore effective regulation of financial institutions as well as other large corporations.

Sen. Obama and the Democratic congressional majorities must demand legislation that—prevents windfall profits for corporations or corporate executives, stimulates job creation and economic growth and provides additional support to distressed homeowners and the unemployed.
Specific legislation must be introduced and voted on to:


  • Limit executive pay in participating institutions to 10 times the salary of the lowest full time employee, and eliminate bonus payments as well.

  • Ensure taxpayers are the beneficiaries of economic gains from the bailout by suspending dividend payments and stock buy-back programs in participating institutions and providing the government with appropriate equity in bailed out corporations.

  • Require participating debt holders to assist distressed homeowners (not speculators) in mortgage refinancing at lower, fixed rates.

  • Provide at least $300 billion to state and local governments to jump-start existing infrastructure projects such as mass transit, road and bridge repair.

  • Provide funds to local governments to turn foreclosed property from which owners and banks have walked away into housing cooperatives or rental property for low-and middle-income people

  • Increase unemployment and retraining benefits; and

  • Provide effective and transparent oversight of the purchase of distressed assets.



Many of these provisions are included in an alternative that Senator Bernie Sanders has proposed. Even as amendments they would substantially improve the legislation before Congress that most observers expect to be rushed though within a week.
Better still would be passing Bernie Sanders’ plan. You can join Bernie Sanders call for a more far reaching plan funded by a 10% income tax surcharge on individuals making more than $500,000 or couples making more than $1,000,000.

http://talkingunion.wordpress.com/2008/09/25/wall-street-bail-out-plan-must-be-fixed/
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Two Americas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-24-08 02:31 AM
Response to Reply #31
38. Lincoln on this idea of there being "more than two economies"
I should have quoted more from Lincoln's first State of the Union speech, and also his adrress to the Wisconsin Agricultural Fair, because he talks about this very subject brilliantly.

First State of the Union -


It is not needed nor fitting here that a general argument should be made in favor of popular institutions, but there is one point, with its connections, not so hackneyed as most others, to which I ask a brief attention. It is the effort to place capital on an equal footing with, if not above, labor in the structure of government. It is assumed that labor is available only in connection with capital; that nobody labors unless somebody else, owning capital, somehow by the use of it induces him to labor. This assumed, it is next considered whether it is best that capital shall hire laborers, and thus induce them to work by their own consent, or buy them and drive them to it without their consent. Having proceeded so far, it is naturally concluded that all laborers are either hired laborers or what we call slaves. And further, it is assumed that whoever is once a hired laborer is fixed in that condition for life.

Now there is no such relation between capital and labor as assumed, nor is there any such thing as a free man being fixed for life in the condition of a hired laborer. Both these assumptions are false, and all inferences from them are groundless.

Labor is prior to and independent of capital. Capital is only the fruit of labor, and could never have existed if labor had not first existed. Labor is the superior of capital, and deserves much the higher consideration. Capital has its rights, which are as worthy of protection as any other rights. Nor is it denied that there is, and probably always will be, a relation between labor and capital producing mutual benefits. The error is in assuming that the whole labor of community exists within that relation. A few men own capital, and that few avoid labor themselves, and with their capital hire or buy another few to labor for them. A large majority belong to neither class--neither work for others nor have others working for them. In most of the Southern States a majority of the whole people of all colors are neither slaves nor masters, while in the Northern a large majority are neither hirers nor hired. Men, with their families--wives, sons, and daughters--work for themselves on their farms, in their houses, and in their shops, taking the whole product to themselves, and asking no favors of capital on the one hand nor of hired laborers or slaves on the other. It is not forgotten that a considerable number of persons mingle their own labor with capital; that is, they labor with their own hands and also buy or hire others to labor for them; but this is only a mixed and not a distinct class. No principle stated is disturbed by the existence of this mixed class.

Again, as has already been said, there is not of necessity any such thing as the free hired laborer being fixed to that condition for life. Many independent men everywhere in these States a few years back in their lives were hired laborers. The prudent, penniless beginner in the world labors for wages awhile, saves a surplus with which to buy tools or land for himself, then labors on his own account another while, and at length hires another new beginner to help him. This is the just and generous and prosperous system which opens the way to all, gives hope to all, and consequent energy and progress and improvement of condition to all. No men living are more worthy to be trusted than those who toil up from poverty; none less inclined to take or touch aught which they have not honestly earned. Let them beware of surrendering a political power which they already possess, and which if surrendered will surely be used to close the door of advancement against such as they and to fix new disabilities and burdens upon them till all of liberty shall be lost.



Address before the Wisconsin State Agricultural Society -


The world is agreed that labor is the source from which human wants are mainly supplied. There is no dispute upon this point. From this point, however, men immediately diverge. Much disputation is maintained as to the best way of applying and controlling the labor element. By some it is assumed that labor is available only in connection with capital -- that nobody labors, unless somebody else, owning capital, somehow, by the use of that capital, induces him to do it. Having assumed this, they proceed to consider whether it is best that capital shall hire laborers, and thus induce them to work by their own consent; or buy them, and drive them to it without their consent. Having proceeded so far they naturally conclude that all laborers are necessarily either hired laborers, or slaves. They further assume that whoever is once a hired laborer, is fatally fixed in that condition for life; and thence again that his condition is as bad as, or worse than that of a slave. This is the "mud-sill" theory.

But another class of reasoners hold the opinion that there is no such relation between capital and labor, as assumed; and that there is no such thing as a freeman being fatally fixed for life, in the condition of a hired laborer, that both these assumptions are false, and all inferences from them groundless. They hold that labor is prior to, and independent of, capital; that, in fact, capital is the fruit of labor, and could never have existed if labor had not first existed -- that labor can exist without capital, but that capital could never have existed without labor. Hence they hold that labor is the superior -- greatly the superior -- of capital.

They do not deny that there is, and probably always will be, a relation between labor and capital. The error, as they hold, is in assuming that the whole labor of the world exists within that relation. A few men own capital; and that few avoid labor themselves, and with their capital, hire, or buy, another few to labor for them. A large majority belong to neither class -- neither work for others, nor have others working for them. Even in all our slave States, except South Carolina, a majority of the whole people of all colors, are neither slaves nor masters. In these Free States, a large majority are neither hirers or hired. Men, with their families -- wives, sons and daughters -- work for themselves, on their farms, in their houses and in their shops, taking the whole product to themselves, and asking no favors of capital on the one hand, nor of hirelings or slaves on the other. It is not forgotten that a considerable number of persons mingle their own labor with capital; that is, labor with their own hands, and also buy slaves or hire freemen to labor for them; but this is only a mixed, and not a distinct class. No principle stated is disturbed by the existence of this mixed class. Again, as has already been said, the opponents of the "mud-sill" theory insist that there is not, of necessity, any such thing as the free hired laborer being fixed to that condition for life. There is demonstration for saying this. Many independent men, in this assembly, doubtless a few years ago were hired laborers. And their case is almost if not quite the general rule.

The prudent, penniless beginner in the world, labors for wages awhile, saves a surplus with which to buy tools or land, for himself; then labors on his own account another while, and at length hires another new beginner to help him. This, say its advocates, is free labor -- the just and generous, and prosperous system, which opens the way for all -- gives hope to all, and energy, and progress, and improvement of condition to all. If any continue through life in the condition of the hired laborer, it is not the fault of the system, but because of either a dependent nature which prefers it, or improvidence, folly, or singular misfortune. I have said this much about the elements of labor generally, as introductory to the consideration of a new phase which that element is in process of assuming. The old general rule was that educated people did not perform manual labor. They managed to eat their bread, leaving the toil of producing it to the uneducated. This was not an insupportable evil to the working bees, so long as the class of drones remained very small. But now, especially in these free States, nearly all are educated -- quite too nearly all, to leave the labor of the uneducated, in any wise adequate to the support of the whole. It follows from this that henceforth educated people must labor. Otherwise, education itself would become a positive and intolerable evil. No country can sustain, in idleness, more than a small per centage of its numbers. The great majority must labor at something productive. From these premises the problem springs, "How can labor and education be the most satisfactory combined?"

By the "mud-sill" theory it is assumed that labor and education are incompatible; and any practical combination of them impossible. According to that theory, a blind horse upon a tread-mill, is a perfect illustration of what a laborer should be -- all the better for being blind, that he could not tread out of place, or kick understandingly. According to that theory, the education of laborers, is not only useless, but pernicious, and dangerous. In fact, it is, in some sort, deemed a misfortune that laborers should have heads at all. Those same heads are regarded as explosive materials, only to be safely kept in damp places, as far as possible from that peculiar sort of fire which ignites them. A Yankee who could invent strong handed man without a head would receive the everlasting gratitude of the "mud-sill" advocates.

But Free Labor says "no!" Free Labor argues that, as the Author of man makes every individual with one head and one pair of hands, it was probably intended that heads and hands should cooperate as friends; and that that particular head, should direct and control that particular pair of hands. As each man has one mouth to be fed, and one pair of hands to furnish food, it was probably intended that that particular pair of hands should feed that particular mouth -- that each head is the natural guardian, director, and protector of the hands and mouth inseparably connected with it; and that being so, every head should be cultivated, and improved, by whatever will add to its capacity for performing its charge. In one word Free Labor insists on universal education.

I have so far stated the opposite theories of "Mud-Sill" and "Free Labor" without declaring any preference of my own between them. On an occasion like this I ought not to declare any. I suppose, however, I shall not be mistaken, in assuming as a fact, that the people of Wisconsin prefer free labor, with its natural companion, education.


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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-23-08 11:26 PM
Response to Original message
32. I truly wish it was this simple
alas, it is not... and I will leave it at that Mike

I am not interesting in having a "discussion" with you
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Two Americas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-24-08 01:03 AM
Response to Reply #32
33. of course it isn't
I don't claim that it is simple. I don't claim that it is easy to solve. I don't imagine that there is not a long struggle ahead of us.

I do think, however, that there needs to be a left wing point of view included in the discussion, along with all of the pro-market conservative views. I do think that the traditional principles and ideals of the Democratic party need to be considered.

Why is there so much resistance to that?
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-24-08 01:09 AM
Response to Reply #33
34. i don't oppose a left wing argument to it
hell been making those arguments to the people in charge. I just happen to BASE mine in what works from ahem that pesky thing called history, the whole 10K years of written records, in particular the last 300.

That said, I also like to live in reality... and realize that both extremes live in fantasy

There is no free market... and a marxist state is not feasible either. There are WAY too many problems with a command economy...

Kind of history proves that... but as I said, I am not interested in an argument at this point

I am interested in solutions... and as is, AFTER reading the Dodd PROPOSED legislation now I have a better and more nuanced proposal to those in charge Guess what I will be doing in ten minutes or so... after fully digesting what I finished readying? You guessed it...

And I highly suggest you do the same
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Two Americas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-24-08 01:43 AM
Response to Reply #34
36. that is good
I don't believe that we have any serious disagreement.

I am a student of history, as I think you know. There is a danger for us there - we are always looking in hindsight - history is written once we know how it turns out. It is difficult to look at the events from the past through the eyes of those who did not yet know how things would turn out. We edit the story, interpret the story, with the knowledge of the outcome, and that can distort our view - embalm history in a set of platitudes and overly-simplified formulas.

For example, the New Deal dod not come into being because that is what people were advocating. It came into being because there were so many people advocating proposals that were much more radical, much farther to the Left than the New Deal. That means that if we want anything like the New Deal now, there must be a strong Left. You have been warning us against that, telling us of the dangers of advocating Left wing positions, if I understand you.

I am talking directly to people in Congress and staffers that I have cultivated friendships and contacts with over the years, as I have done for the last 30 years. I am saying to them exactly what I am saying here, and I am getting a much better response than I am here on DU. I am also getting a much better response from everyday people on the street than I am from people here. The party activists are in danger of becoming the most conservative and reactionary segment of the population, because they are so cowed, so afraid to be unambiguously and unapologetically advocating for the political Left, and so sympathetic to and so strongly identifying with the sentiments and proclivities of the upper class, with the gentry.

Too many people here are speaking for the investor class, the gentry, and too few are speaking for the common people. Can we not have some balance without people flipping out and thinking that the reds have shown up to burn down their house and send them to a re-education camp or something?

We will never get a New Deal, we will never stop the right wing, if we cannot tolerate some strong Left wing voices among us. What we are saying on this thread is so mild by historical standards, so tame compared to what activists and Labor organizers were saying in the thirties.
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-24-08 02:05 AM
Response to Reply #36
37. I tolerate it, even encourage it... so don't look at me
as I said, don't want to argue

And I will not argue
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Two Americas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-24-08 02:35 AM
Response to Reply #37
39. OK
Edited on Wed Sep-24-08 02:37 AM by Two Americas
What is it then that you have a problem with? (in the spirit of gaining better understanding, not to provoke an argument.)
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-24-08 02:41 AM
Response to Reply #39
41. That the first step to change any system is to know how it works
and a lot of the let it crash or glorious revolution crowd don't even get how their ATM is tied to the credit system

Oh and I have called for national strikes here and other places

I have called for stoppages

Here is a free clue... it will not happen

Nobody will admit it... but people cannot afford to loose a job

8% of employees belong to unions in the private sector, and a little more in the public sector

So until people have NOTHING to loose, that will not change.

By the by, this CENTRIST has participated in the three national strikes, that went nowhere


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Two Americas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-24-08 02:45 AM
Response to Reply #41
42. ok
Yes, people do not understand as you say what a LIBOR freeze would mean - "how their ATM is tied to the credit system." There may be some "let it crash" or "glorious revolution" people, I don't know.

You are right about Labor, about strikes.
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Two Americas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-24-08 03:14 AM
Response to Reply #41
43. LIBOR
For those who are not familiar with this -

"London Inter-Bank Offer Rate. The interest rate that the banks charge each other for loans (usually in Eurodollars). This rate is applicable to the short-term international interbank market, and applies to very large loans borrowed for anywhere from one day to five years. This market allows banks with liquidity requirements to borrow quickly from other banks with surpluses, enabling banks to avoid holding excessively large amounts of their asset base as liquid assets. The LIBOR is officially fixed once a day by a small group of large London banks, but the rate changes throughout the day."

If banks stop lending money to one another, everything comes to a screeching halt. A high LIBOR means that banks do not trust one another to repay loans. The LIBOR is very high now. Banks are hanging on to their money.

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earth mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-25-08 03:58 AM
Response to Reply #41
55. Read all your posts here and want you to recognize that there is NO guarantee
Edited on Thu Sep-25-08 04:04 AM by TheGoldenRule
that there will not be a Great Depression 2 even after the criminals on Wall St. get their 700 Billion.

Further, I think the economy is so horrifically bad and FUBAR, that a crash of some kind will come whether we try and stop this highway robbery or not.

I don't want a crash, but I sure as hell don't want to pay them to rip off my families future earnings right before they throw the entire economy in the trash.



I don't think there are any easy answers here, but we should at the very least demand that Congress not give into Wall Street's hurried demands.

Because if the powers that be were in such a hurry to fix things they would have tried to fix them months, no years, ago.



The bottom line is that they-politicians, Wall St, corporations, powers that be-don't give a damn what happens to us, the peons.

Oh HELL NO. We are nothing more than trash to them.

Remember that.
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Two Americas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-25-08 01:13 PM
Response to Reply #55
58. agreed
The bail out could not only make things worse, but could cause worse conditions than a depression.
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Two Americas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-24-08 03:26 AM
Response to Reply #34
44. Dodd
Dodd Proposes Giving U.S. Equity Stake for Bad Debt

Senate Banking Committee Chairman Chris Dodd offered an alternative today to the Bush administration's financial rescue plan aimed at giving the U.S. Treasury an equity stake when it helps companies burdened by debt. Dodd, a Connecticut Democrat, is circulating a draft of his bill as Congress seeks to deal with a financial crisis that has been called the U.S.'s worst since the Great Depression.

"We cannot just turn over $700 billion in taxpayer money and not insist that that taxpayer is going to be protected in this," Dodd told reporters yesterday.

...

Dodd's proposal also would create a five-member oversight board to supervise the Treasury secretary's purchase and sale of distressed mortgage debt.

...

Dodd is proposing to penalize executives who take "inappropriate or excessive" risks. The executive compensation and severance packages could be reduced if that is "in the public interest," the proposal says. It would also force executives to give back profits they earned that were based on company accounting measures that are later found to be inaccurate.

http://bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=aHeROL9EmlRg&refer=home

Full text of Dodd's proposal -
http://www.politico.com/static/PPM41_ayo08b28.html
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-24-08 01:36 PM
Response to Reply #44
46. Read the full Dodd Proposal last night
in the process of sending faxes on it
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Kitty Herder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-24-08 02:36 AM
Response to Original message
40. K & MR(?)
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McCamy Taylor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-25-08 04:47 AM
Response to Original message
56. I noticed the "It's a Wonderful Life" parallels when I was writing my latest, too.
Basically, under Clinton, they attempted to end redlining and increase the economic prosperity of all Americans so that people could buy homes.

Under Bush, the rich decided to steal the economic prosperity of the people who used to be redlined by pretending to offer them homes---but what they really offered was a way to cheat them out of their money. And then they took back the homes. This was the plan all along. Keep them in Potter's Field, but first get their money. It was all a quick way to fleece the most vulnerable people in the U.S., the ones that typically vote Democratic, so the GOP did not care if they got mad. Only it ended up backfiring when the property values sank. So now the rich speculators want us to pay off the money they lost----and the government will keep the property and then sell it at a bargain rate to the same rich speculators who will turn around and make a profit selling it to us again.

That is why we can not have the Bush administration doing this bailout.
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TBF Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-25-08 08:08 AM
Response to Reply #56
57. It's also why there should not be a bailout - with the caveat that I'd like to
see some way to keep people in their homes with a repayment schedule they can afford. I could live with putting some money towards that (with oversight and I do not mean from Paulsen who belongs in Jail).
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