WTF? Firefighters in San Diego FORCED to be in Gay Pride Parade?

[El Pinko]

http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/metro/20080923-1324-bn23gayparade_firemen.html

Firefighter describes gay pride parade ordeal

By Tony Manolatos
UNION-TRIBUNE STAFF WRITER

1:24 p.m. September 23, 2008

SAN DIEGO – One of the firefighters suing San Diego over their forced participation in last year's gay pride parade in Hillcrest testified Tuesday that he suffered emotional distress from the event.

Alex Kane and three other firemen from Station 5 in Hillcrest were ordered to ride a fire engine for the three-hour parade because another fire team dropped out at the last minute. Since they filed suit, the city has made employee participation in all parades voluntary.

During questioning by his lawyer, Charles LiMandri, Kane said he saw sexually suggestive acts and heard lewd remarks directed at the firefighters during the procession.

Kane, who has worked as a firefighter for six years, testified that he became the butt of jokes at the fire station. He also said the parade experience adversely affected his family life.





I am a pretty vehement supporter of LGBT rights, marriage, adoption, you name it.

But forcing people to participate in a gay event? That doesn't seem right.

People also have a right to object to homosexuality on the grounds of their religion or whatever, so long as they don't infringe upon the rights of others.

I can imagine that these people would feel as uncomfortable at a gay pride parade as I would if I was FORCED to participate in some Christian event by my job. (I honestly can't imagine any form of torture more awful).


Why should firefighters be forced to participate in ANY parade? Shouldn't that sort of thing be volunteer? It has nothing to do with firefighting...

[nichomachus]

1. Wait for the full story

This is a guy making an allegation through his lawyer. I'd like to hear what really happened.

Remember all the GOPers who claimed that Obama demanded kindergarten kids be taught all about sex.

Usually, the full story is far less interesting.

So, save the WTFs for when you've got the whole story.

[ColbertWatcher]

94. Good advice. It's interesting this comes out just before an election.

Talk about wedge issue.

[begin_within]

2. This has been dragging on for over a year. What crybabies.

I think they're silently trying to use the fact that San Diego's Fire Chief is an openly lesbian woman to make it into some kind of gay conspiracy thing. Maybe these guys had a point, maybe it traumatized them so much to have a bunch of men making wolf whistles at them, but sheesh... it's been over a year now, another gay parade has come and gone in the meantime, and they still haven't gotten over it?

[El Pinko]

3. I'm not saying that they have grounds for a lawsuit...

...I think the claim of being traumatized is pathetic.

They should have refused to participate, then challenged any disciplinary action they were subjected to.



While I don't see the merits of the case, I don't understand the logic of FORCING public servants to participate in a parade that they may have some sort of superstition-based objections to.

[begin_within]

4. agree with you on those points

[fed_up_mother]

9. Problem is it appears the lesbian fire chief is using her position

to force her employees to promote her views.

That's wrong when either side does it, imo.

[lumberjack_jeff]

11. If the chief is ordering staff to do things which adversely affect fire safety...

... then yes.

Firefighters should do what they're told, which often includes public appearances to promote fire safety. If you take a taxpayer salary, you don't get to pick and choose which beneficial appearances fit your style.

I'm sure that there are lots of fundy teachers who'd love to be able to pick and choose which students to teach, for instance.

[El Pinko]

15. That is completely different.

Every minor child, gay, straight, minority or Satanist, has a right to a public education. Period.

Fundie teachers have to teach them all for that reason. Not because the school district has the power to force them to do whatever it likes.

[lumberjack_jeff]

20. So fire safety is not something these particular taxpayers are entitled?

Using your logic, would it be appropriate and permissible for the police officers patrolling the very same event to refuse to do so?

[El Pinko]

26. In other posts in this thread I have states that it would not.

Officers patrolling are not being put in a position of endorsing or denouncing the event or any behavior taking place. They are there to enforce the law, nothing more or less.

[Regret My New Name]

31. There is a difference though.

If they were providing fire protection for the parade then it would be equatable to the police providing policing. However, in this case they were part of the parade as opposed to providing their services.

[anigbrowl]

42. Fire safety my ass. Like what, be careful with the crisco?

It's a gay pride parade. I'm all for gay firefighters expressing their pride by taking a city-owned fire engine out for the day to express that gay people are welcome in SDFD. I'm not for non-gay firefighters being told to take part if that's alien to them. I think you're using an authoritarian argument here (it's an order, dammit), which undermines any message of tolerance the FD wants to send out.

It would be very different if the city was forbidding gay firefighters from taking part while wearing the uniform or driving a fire truck - in that case I'd argue up and down they should be allowed to. But I don't think it's reasonable to order straight firefighters to be gay for a day, which is what they were told to do.

[lumberjack_jeff]

49. Fire fighters belong to a paramilitary organization.

They follow commands, and they knew it when they hired on.

If sending city staff to a parade is a waste of resources, the recourse is political.

Your post is a flood of illogic. Of course firefighters can participate in any events they wish as civilians. I would strongly defend any public employee from retribution on the basis of their unofficial activities. In their official capacities they are obliged to follow the instructions passed down the chain of command by policymakers. I won't defend any public employees who refuse to serve any constituencies because of their political/religious sensibilities. His right to unrestricted free speech ends the instant he punches the clock. At that moment, his time is no longer his time.

[Realityhack]

56. I disagree

If you are sending a fire engine to a parade, with paid employees on it, that is an official duty. It is essentially public relations work, and it is perfectly fair to say you need to show up regardless of your personal views.

They HAVE since changed the way parades are handled, however it sounded like this was the same way other appearances were handled in the past.

Nobody is ordering anyone to be gay for a day. That simply is not what happened. Your post is unnecessarily inflammatory.

[anigbrowl]

69. We'll have to agree to disagree about this then

I take your point that this is something of a PR exercise, but I think there are limits on what you can ask people to do in that context - and suggest that this is why the policy got changed. Put a bunch of guys on a fire engine in the middle of a gay pride parade, and it's completely predictable that they're going be treated as sex objects during the parade. I don't think it's too much to expect that to be a voluntary rather than a disciplinary matter, because you're pushing up against the boundaries between the public and the personal where sexuality is involved.

Is the guy rather homophobic? Almost certainly, yes. But I don't think that obviates his argument, because one doesn't necessarily choose one's own sexuality. As a member of a sexual minority myself, I care about having that choice tolerated and the ability to express it in public if I choose, but in turn I accept the fact that it's distinctly alien to other people. I don't feel that pushing a guy into a situation where he feels miserable and humiliated is going to advance the idea of gay pride, any more than I think a gay person working as a firefighter should have to put up with harassment in the workplace for being a minority.

[Realityhack]

75. Actualy I agree with that.

I think changing the rule was a good idea. And the choice of 'publicity placement' (ie. in a gay pride parade) opens up an issue of sexual harassment. I think a mistake was made in this case.

I do have some concern over the issue of how you determine when you can send an engine to a parade. What happens if you don't have a full crew, etc. But this wasn't the right choice.

[LostinVA]

30. Oh boy

[anigbrowl]

12. It's not the guy's fault that the case took a year to come to trial

Civil suits often start long after the original basis of the complaint took place. It's only criminal trials where you have the right to a speedy trial.

[The Straight Story]

25. Question really is - should anyone HAVE to march in any parade?

:shrug:

[Realityhack]

51. I think that is the end question.

And it appears the rules were changed so that nobody would have to any more.

However, I can see a case for why the original policy was in place. Parade and other public appearances of fire equipment are a public relations activity for the fire department. When you send an engine you need to send people with it. I can see a case being made that this is part of the job. You don't just fight fires, you also show off the equipment to the public.

[sandnsea]

70. And yes, firefighters should have to n/t

[NeedleCast]

5. Yeah, that's pretty messed up

and I don't think it helps the GLBT cause at all. Just provides ammunition for the other side.

[tjwash]

6. Heh...welcome to my world. Now you see what passes for news in San Diego.

The trib is a fucking disgrace...they are only a half a step above the national enquirer.

This is the paper that hired Ruben Navarette for balance. Gotta admit though, compared to the other list of conservanazi from hell staffers that they employ, he actually is to the left of them.

[Dont_Bogart_the_Pretzel]

47. HI tj !

Neat picture.

[msanthrope]

7. "he became the butt of jokes at the fire station." Anybody think

this reporter is signaling that this lawsuit is a joke???

[Lerkfish]

8. anyone secure in their hetero masculinity would have no problem.

I"m just sayin.

[anigbrowl]

17. I disagree

I don't think he's complaining so much about the homosexuality (although that may well be the underlying cause) as the sexualized environment. Regardless of what their sexuality is, people may not be comfortable expressing it in different environments. For example, I've only been to a strip club once (I was invited by my boss, who was into it), and I hated it. Lots of guys, probably a majority, would say 'yay, strip club' but it just wasn't my scene - whereas there are other adult-type events that are my scene.

What if it were some female firefighters in some straight equivalent of the Gay pride parade, eg a Valentine's Day Parade (if such existed)? I don't think you'd be quick to dismiss their claims. I'm slightly bi (as in tried it with a male partner a few times when I was in my early 20s), and I'm very 'pretty' looking; I get chatted up frequently by guys in San Francisco. Sometimes it's just polite and friendly and I'm flattered even though I refuse. Other times it's obnoxious and offensive.

[El Pinko]

24. That's another good point.

BTW, I used to live in SF (Inner Richmond), and I never got chatted up by guys or girls. :cry:


Count your blessings, being pretty and all. :)

[Lerkfish]

33. ok, you make some good points.

[lumberjack_jeff]

59. If the environment is inappropriate

then the chief should not order her staff to attend, and the city needs a new chief.

It is not a public employee's prerogative to refuse legal orders within the realm of their job description.

[wvbygod]

60. Anyone secure in their religious beliefs have no problem attending mandatory church events

Just sayin.

[Lerkfish]

68. see post #33

yup, I was wrong.

[LanternWaste]

65. I imagine a corollary is true also, then?

I imagine a corollary is true also, then?

Any individual secure enough in their own atheism would have no problems being instructed to march in a religious parade?

[Lerkfish]

67. yup, already convinced me I was wrong: see post #33

[lumberjack_jeff]

10. Follow your orders or quit. Don't be a whiner.

If a mayor orders staff to attend a legally sanctioned event, the staff is obliged to go.

The recourse is the ballot box.

Employment IS coercive.

[El Pinko]

13. That's absurd.

People are hired to do a given job.

Forcing them to do an totally unrelated and politically controversial activity in their off time is completely inappropriate.

Doesn't matter if it was a Promise Keepers Rally, an NRA confab, a Gay Pride Parade, or a blatantly partisan event for either party.

There are limits to what an employer can force you to do off the clock, and and any of these would definitely cross the line

[lumberjack_jeff]

18. a) where does the article indicate that he wasn't paid for this event? I suspect he got overtime.

b) Yes, if the mayor and fire chief order a firefighter to promote fire safety at an NRA confab, the firefighters are obliged to go.

If the chain of command is misusing the taxpayers resources (the firefighters in question) than that is a political issue.

The firefighter in question was not being ordered into an unsafe situation (certainly not unsafe as compared to the duties which are expected from firefighters).

I have no sympathy. Doing what the chief orders is your job. Determining that the chief is using resources effectively is the voters job.

[anigbrowl]

23. How about female firefighters at a porn convention?

There are trade shows for the adult movie industry, and they're in full-sized conference centers where people sell things like insurance, legal services, cameras, and what-all else as well as the more specifically adult services. It's a big business. Hmm - you think it might be worth thinking twice before ordering (not seeking volunteers for) some female firefighters to go 'represent' in an environment where you know in advance that they're going to be the object of sexual advances? That's a lawsuit waiting to happen and you know it. So was this.

I am all for having a fire engine at the gay pride parade. I'm just not for ordering whoever is around to man it regardless of their personal sensibilities.

[El Pinko]

37. If you don't want firefighters to be FORCED to appear at porn conventions...

...that means you want all the porn stars to die horribly in fires! Because of you all that will be left is ashes and hundreds of blobs of melted silicone!!!
:eyes: ;-)

[anigbrowl]

45. Hawt!

[anigbrowl]

14. Ah, you could justify any sexual harrassment on that basis.

Think it over.

[lumberjack_jeff]

19. I suggest that you should be the one rethinking.

Could a police officer refuse to patrol the event because he might see something unsavory?

Both the police officer and the firefighter are attending the event in their official capacity, and are paid to do it. One is there to promote fire safety and one is there to promote public safety.

The firefighter is simply the bigger whiner.

[fed_up_mother]

21. Being "in" the parade makes it appear you support the parade

That's a lot different than asking police to "police" the event.

How about the fire chief ask them to appear in a Republican parade rally? Or a Christian parade? Working "at" an event is different from appearing "in" an event.

[El Pinko]

22. The firefighter is being forced into a position of endorsing the event.

A police officer should patrol the event, and nobody there need know his feelings about it one way or the other.
I suppose you wouldn't mind a fire chief who forces firefighters to go to cross-burnings either?

[Regret My New Name]

32. I think a more realistic possibility is fire fighters be forced to do a Christmas parade

I'm sure that happens, no? Yet we don't hear much about those, but if we did then I'm sure most of us here would support the firefighter who didn't want to take part in it for whatever personal reasons he/she may have. However, on the flip side you would have many who knee-jerk defend this particularly guy because of the 'gay thing', would not support one wanting to opt out of the Christmas parade....

People are interesting.

[El Pinko]

34. I don't think firefighters should be forced to do that either.

Off-time events like parades should be strictly voluntary.

[Regret My New Name]

36. I'm with ya...

[sandnsea]

40. The equipment, pay, etc., belongs to the city

Kids like the fire engines in the parade. No, it should not be voluntary. These are grown damn men and women. Do these guys have any clue that hot women have to put up with this every single day. Women cannot opt out of their job every time an anonymous citizen makes crude gestures at her.

[KitchenWitch]

61. How many kids really attend Gay Pride parades?

[sandnsea]

62. Don't know, don't care, not the point n/t

[KitchenWitch]

74. I know I am being pedantic here, but you brought up the "kids like firetrucks" idea.

:shrug:

[sandnsea]

80. If there's one kid, then there you go

The number doesn't matter. The point is that you can't start picking and choosing which parades firefighters will participate in. It's part of our community expectation.

[KitchenWitch]

81. Got it.

I know if I were a fire fighter and I was compelled to participate in a parade being run by frothing at the mouth Pentacostals, I would not be very happy about it. Not sure if it is legally actionable, but I get that the firefighter in this case was unhappy about it.

[sandnsea]

82. Unhappy because of sexual comments

And again, how many female firefighters have to tolerate lewd comments from the public. It isn't an excuse to not participate in public events. If the firefighters participate in a Christmas parade, then they have to participate with frothing at the mouth Pentacostals. It's just the way I see it.

[KitchenWitch]

95. Seriously, how many women in any working environment have had to put up

with sexual comments/harassment.

[haele]

100. Waiving hand!

I spent 20 years in the Navy and have been working shipyards just as long.
Every woman experiences it differently. I didn't feel like I got harassed much, because I am sarcastically pragmatic, pretty much a tomboy type and had easy access to ratcheting cable cutters if I felt the "joking" was going too far and wanted to make a point.
Other women in my same situation felt far more harassed in the same environment I did, and had problems dealing with it.
The definition of Sexual Harassment I am familiar with is experiencing harassment is dependent on what a reasonable person would deem to be a harassing/hostile comment or environment.

Example - Personal Complements on looks or clothing are not usually considered harassment ("that new hairstyle looks good on you...", but if they are presented in an inappropriate manner - inappropriate timing (in the middle of your presentation during a serious meeting), or too personal ("mmm, mmm - I bet you wore that skirt for your boyfriend after work!") - such comments should be counted as harassment as they are used by the harasser to control your reactions and environment - at the very least, to "put you in your place".

When the harassment is subtle, it often sounds silly to complain - and as I indicated, I have a thick skin and tend to turn the more subtle attempts to harass me into a joke - but not everyone handles it the same way, and if one man's joke is another man's inappropriate behavior, and as such, should be addressed if all parties are to be respected.

Haele

[haele]

99. At the parade he is complaining about, I'd say there were quite a few kids -

Not only because the route goes by a area of public picnic lawn at Balboa Park, but because there are many in the GLBT community around here that have kids and brought them to the parade, from what I saw when I went there to drop the kidlet (age 15 at the time) and her four friends (ages 13 - 16)all of whom had permission to be there from their parents) to see the parade. I saw plenty of toddlers and strollers - less than what there is during the "Fleet Week" or Holiday Bowl parades, but still a good double-digit number.
I later found out that the kidlet and her friends took it on themselves to walk along in the parade wearing their rainbow shirts and clothes along with a group of fellow Gay-Straight alliance High School and Jr. High School students they knew.
As for lewd or nude - the "lewdness" was pretty much what you'd experience at any summer boardwalk when there's a group of "enthusiastic" young people watching for pretty girls (and guys) in scanty dress and the "nudity" was no greater than it would be on a normal day at the public park - joggers in speedo bathing suits are a common sight around here.
In my experience living here in North Park and spending a lot of time in Hillcrest - even if it is as diverse, San Diego's gay community is not quite as publicly exuberant as it is in other big cities. I've lived in LA, Seattle, and San Fransisco/Berkley at one time or another, and there is definitely a difference in the feel of various communities.

Just my two cents from having had experience with this parade here.

[lumberjack_jeff]

43. Please show me where he was "off the clock" for the event.

Or stop persisting in saying he was.

This wasn't his free time, he was paid for it.

[lumberjack_jeff]

39. I absolutely would force a firefighter to attend a Christmas parade.

I'm a heterosexual atheist. I simply expect public employees to comply with the legally permissible orders they are given. Teachers, firefighters, police officers... all of 'em.

They don't get to pick and choose which constituencies they serve.

[Regret My New Name]

77. And I would not...

:) But I guess we can't all agree on everything. It would be a very boring world. Anyways, I think the main difference is that you see view the parades as being part of their jobs, and I don't. Now, if there job was to put out a float that caught fire at the parade, then I would 100% support the stance that they need to do their job - put out the fire.

I suppose ultimately it would come down to what their employment contract says, aye? If it says they would have to take part in any parade or event, then they have to do what they agreed to do... and then try to change it in the future if they feel so inclined.

[lumberjack_jeff]

93. I confess to some attitude on the topic.

For 12 years, I was a councilperson in a town of 3600 people. The town has historically been flush with cash because of a fairly large forest they own.

20 years ago (or so) it was decided to hire full-time fire personnel. They have a very strong lobby in the form of the volunteer fire organization, and exercise inappropriate control over the levers of government. Consequently they are the highest paid city employees (by a factor of two). When they forced the fire chief out, none of them would apply for the job because they couldn't afford the pay cut nor the arduous 40 hour workweek. (they work 24-on and 72-off. That's an 11-day work month. One of the busiest contractors in town is a firefighter. Why not? It's a part-time job.) They were outraged that the Mayor insisted on exercising his authority to select the new chief.

One of the things they sought (and obtained) was a replacement for the city's ladder truck. It cost a half-million dollars (about $400/household). Their argument was that the old 50' ladder was inadequate for the downtown core. So they bought a 90' one. Thing is, the tallest building in town is about 40' tall, and it has a sprinkler system.

... but it looks really impressive in parades, and we needed to "support our firefighters".

In a town of 3600, you can imagine that there is a lot of downtime. They were "asked" by the mayor if they would do some flushing of the fire hydrants because the overworked and underpaid public works crew wasn't able to do it. They refused. It's beneath their dignity, and they have sleeping and tv watching to do.

I said "I was a councilperson". I was challenged by a "volunteer" firefighter. (I say "volunteer" because he was paid fairly well for his services to the city) He won, in part, because his fellow volunteers told retirees that if they didn't vote for him, their ambulance service was at risk. He didn't seek re-election because, to his surprise, he was prohibited from taking a salary as a councilperson as well as a salary as a "volunteer" firefighter.
:grr:

Frankly, if I got paid to sleep and watch TV, I'd consider being directed to attend a parade a minor imposition.

In my experience, firefighters are prima donnas. Ironically, as the union employees who enjoy more benefits of unionization than anyone I can think of, they are also the most right wing bunch I've ever known. PR is part of their job description because it's fun. It must come as a surprise that the fire chief considers outreach to gays to be a worthy activity too.

So, in a way I agree. Being in parades is a huge waste of resources, and reinforces the idea that public safety is the only worthwhile public service.

[backwoodsbob]

86. so...

*I simply expect public employees to comply with the legally permissible orders they are given*

If a muslim firefighter was forced to participate in a fundamentalist x-tian parade promoting x-tian values you would hold the same position?

[lumberjack_jeff]

89. Yes.

The firefighter is performing his public relations duties as directed by his supervisor. Attending a Christmas (or easter) parade is no more or less appropriate than having public works employees put up the city's Christmas decorations.

I'd expect it just like I'd expect a Christian police officer to respond to a burglary of a mosque. You don't get to pick and choose which elements of the public you serve. Nor do you get to pick and choose which tasks within your job description you'll do. Fire fighters do outreach and public relations often.

Whether the parade is an appropriate outreach activity is a different question, one for whom the fire chief is answerable.

[lumberjack_jeff]

35. The firefighter is suing on the basis of the emotional distress from what he witnessed.

Feather boas and such.

No one confuses a public employees forced association with people as endorsement of their politics, behavior or lifestyles. That's a ridiculous argument to make and is precisely why he didn't try.

It seems to me that the police officers standing along the parade route witnessed the same things. Police officers must have tougher constitutions.

You are demonstrating some difficulty identifying actual absurdity. A fire chief should not order his staff to attend an illegal event, such as a cross-burning. :eyes:

[El Pinko]

46. I've been to several gay pride parades, and it is a lot more than just leather boas.

There is a LOT of nudity and sexual behavior going on. I would not take my young kids.

Or force a subordinate co-worker to attend.

[lumberjack_jeff]

53. If you were the fire chief, that would be your decision to make. n/t

[anigbrowl]

57. Exactly. It's a two-way street.

I often attend the Folsom Street Fair in SF, which is an annual get-together for people who are into kink (leather, bondage, and stuff). It's a blast, but I also recognize that it's offensive to some people. As best I recall, the events are usually organized with private security and that's a good thing because if you had police inside there they'd be getting lots of sexual attention (as some people have a fetish for uniforms).

According to some posters here, cops, firefighters and medical staff should be required to take part if ordered by the city even though their uniforms would make them the object of a lot of sexual attention. But as a kinkster myself, I think that would be contrary to the whole idea of consensual participation, which is the basis of the kink community's asserted right to pride and free public expression.

[sandnsea]

63. There are other things going on too

And not everybody has a problem with nudity and sexual behavior. This board goes flippo when anybody complains about Pride Day at Disneyworld.

[El Pinko]

98. You're right. I personally do not, but some people do.

And they should not be forced to be around it.

I'm all for pride day at disney, if the park is at least considerate enough to let the general public know that it's gay day.

(Although somehow I doubt that the behavior at Disney gay day is nearly as raunchy as it is at Pride parades.)

[anigbrowl]

48. Wrong. He's complaining about being the object of sexual attention.

Seeing a bunch of gay people being gay =/= traumatic. Being in the middle of the parade and being the object of unwelcome sexual advances is far less clear cut. As I said earlier, I live in San Francisco. I've been at plenty of gay pride events, and I've been at leather events etc. for the kink community. There's a big difference between merely being present at such an event and being a participant. Just because I'm into something doesn't mean I feel other people should be required to take part in it.

[El Pinko]

73. Cross-burning is actually protected free expression.

It can only be construed as illegal if it is performed in such a way as to be clearly aimed at intimidating or terrorizing someone.

[Dreamer Tatum]

85. Guess we'll be seeing you picketing abortion clinics when a fundie buys your company

If you don't like it, you can always quit.

The inconsistency here is completely mind-boggling. Gee, I wonder if compulsory participation in a sanctioned parade has ever
occurred anywhere else in history...

[holybarcode]

16. I'm getting a whiff of ambulance chaser and possible easy money...

:eyes:

[The Straight Story]

27. Water bong so smooth.....

:rofl: couldn't help it given your sig line :)

Overall, I think requiring someone to be in a parade they don't want to be in is wrong.

[IndianaJones]

28. everyone has to do stuff they don't want to. what a bunch of whiny firefighters. nt.

[Regret My New Name]

29. I think this guy has some issues with his own identity....

I always find it laughable when guys(and ladies to a lesser extent) make such an issue out of things that is homosexual or that they perceive as being such. If it makes someone that uncomfortable then I tend to think they are insecure about their own sexual tenancies.

Anyways, even though I think this guy is being a big baby and should get over it, I don't anyone should be forced to partake in a parade they don't feel comfortable with. Still, unless it's a recurring issue then I don't understand why he is making such a big about this... I know I'm usually pretty insensitive about things compared to you human people, but he needs to get over it. I'm pretty sure I would feel the same way if it was anything else..

[sandnsea]

38. Participating in parades is part of the job

gay, straight, fat, skinny, ethnic heritage, or otherwise.

[El Pinko]

41. Since when?

I've NEVER heard of that being anything but a voluntary activity.

[sandnsea]

44. Since there's a fire engine in every parade

Somebody has to do it. So these guys know what women have been going through forever. Big deal.

[NeedleCast]

50. I'd bet that if this were fire-fighters who had been forced to attend a conservative event

the responses in this thread would be quite a bit different.

[lumberjack_jeff]

55. Not from me. n/t

[sandnsea]

66. No, that makes the point

Firefighters are required to do public relations at ALL events. They don't get to pick and choose.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

52. Awww, they had "lewd remarks" made toward them. Poor babies.

Welcome to the world of women's daily experience, boys.

[Sam Ervin jret]

54. He needs to check his contract. If his contract states he is obligated to go to public relations

events and represent the fire department at them (i.e. the parade) he is expected to go to whatever event his superior sends him to. If while there he is mistreated the complaint should be with the person or persons who were directly involved.

If however, the contract does not state that the fire fighters are required to do public appearances then they should be able to pick which public events they want to be involved with.

[Zuiderelle]

58. Is EVERYTHING going to piss me off today. Poor straight guys. :eyes:

[KitchenWitch]

64. Why should today be any different....

Just kidding.

I am furious and have been for years.

[Zuiderelle]

72. LOL!

I like that. "I am furious and have been for years." Me too! :D

[Chovexani]

84. Like Ouiser said in Steel Magnolias

"I'm not crazy, I've just been in a very bad mood for 40 years!" :rofl:

[AlCzervik]

71. yup, teh gays have had it too good for too long!

seriously, when will this shit stop. That was rhetorical.

i hate this day.

[samuraiguppy]

76. that's weird!

I have done the parade twice (with my friends) and it is a great event--but no one should be forced to participate.

That is not what progressives are all about.

[Bluebear]

78. Hmm. How much money is he seeking for his distress?

[AlCzervik]

79. check out his lawyer---

http://center.spoke.com/info/pFcDwiC/CharlesLimandri

[MindPilot]

88. Yep, that's all you need to know

...he is the West Coast Regional Director for the Thomas More Law Center based in Ann Arbor, Michigan. The Thomas More Law Center is a national public interest law firm that promotes and protects traditional family and pro-life values and the religious freedom of Christians, through litigation and educational programs.



He is also a member of the Board of Directors of the Center for Thomas More Studies based in Dallas, Texas. Mr. Limandri received the Ronald Reagan Gold medal for service to the Republican National Party for 2004 and 2005. He is the current President of the The San Diego chapter of Legatus, which is an international group of Catholic CEO's, and he received its prestigious "Ambassador of the Year" award for 2005.

[anigbrowl]

83. Nothing. He is just asking for an apology, according to testimony.

It's in the original link. Now how that will play out in practice, I can't predict. I presume he'll seek to have his lawyer's fees awarded, but anyone is entitled to ask for that.

[Bluebear]

90. Screw his apology and his right wing Christian lawyer too.

[anigbrowl]

91. Whatever. It's not my fault you didn't like the answer and that he wasn't asking for $.

[Bluebear]

92. Wow, "whatever" yourself. Why are so you defensive?

[anigbrowl]

97. I think you're being pointlessly rude about it, and I don't feel in the least defensive

You ask how much money he's after, then when you're told the sum is $0 you're saying 'screw his apology!'. Seems to me you wanted to get mad about him being on the make and then you were disappointed when you found out he wasn't.

As I've said above, the guy's likely a homophobe and I don't carry any water for his Christian lawyer - but he's said in his testimony that he's not seeking any monetary damages.

[MindPilot]

87. Couple things of local note here...

Charles LiMandri is a very right-wing christian lawyer from the Thomas More Center. He was one of the main architects of the bill by which the federal government took the Mt Soledad cross by eminent domain. So his motivation is that he is just flat-out anti-gay; he couldn't give a flying rat's ass about the firefighters rights.

Secondly, Hillcrest IS San Diego's gay community and it's not like that's some big secret. If you can't deal with being around gay people, then you need to request a transfer.

San Diego holds it's firefighters in extra-special high esteem--for obvious reasons--and you will never see a more appreciative crowd than when the firefighters go by. The cheers are deafening and people run out to street to hug them, give them flowers, beads--they are OUR heroes.

LiMandri is using Kane and his buddies to push his anti-gay shit on everyone.


edited to correct UCLJ to Thomas More.

[Bombero1956]

96. speaking as a firefighter

The way we handle these issues is that we follow the superior officer's orders and let the union file a grievance later. Firehouses are one of the most homophobic places to work at so it doesn't surprise me that he was razzed at the station. I think he's blowing this out of proportion and the rank and file members of the department are creating a beef with the chief.