700 Billion against your will. What are you going to do now?

[Naturalist]

nothing! 75% of the American People did not want this but they did it anyway! ROFL

[Virginia Dare]

1. Do we know they got the full 700 billion yet?...n/t

[closeupready]

2. Yes, the full $700B; but it will be disbursed in installments.

:eyes: What BS.

[Naturalist]

3. We didn't want the crooks to have any money!

Nada, Zilch, Nothing......

[Virginia Dare]

6. Understand, I just didn't know the details yet...n/t

[SammyWinstonJack]

18. This Country, this government only cares about the RICH AND GREEDY!

Everyone else can just go pound sand!

[screembloodymurder]

4. Well look on the bright side.

If you're not working, you won't be paying taxes.

[spinbaby]

5. When can we find out who voted for it?

If my congressman did, I'm going out to canvass for anyone running against him.

[Naturalist]

7. Soon

but not soon enough!

[lifesbeautifulmagic]

8. i have been checking the sites that track this stuff, including the gov

sites, nothing up yet.

[Virginia Dare]

17. There hasn't been a vote yet, it's a deal in principle...n/t

[Blecht]

9. Some angry posts on an Internet message board!

That'll show them!

Nobody ever does anything in this country. Nobody is willing to risk the consequences of standing up to the criminals in charge.

[Naturalist]

12. You have a BIG HAMMER

and you just hit that nail on the head! Back in my day they were called BLOWHARDS.

[dee15644]

16. What's your plan

I would be interested in knowing what you have done or are going to do.

[closeupready]

22. Shhh ... what's that I hear? Is that crickets?

LOL

Or maybe they'll use an internet message board to criticize as impotent those who are criticizing?

[Blecht]

29. Maybe if we weren't all just smartasses

We could get something done. But as it is, our choices for action are severely limited.

I'm not criticizing anybody -- it's just an observation.

I admit I am not willing to sacrifice my livelihood or my life to try to change things, because I think it would be a futile effort.

How about you?

[Naturalist]

44. It's a damned good thing our forefathers didn't think that way!

our do you disagree?

[closeupready]

47. Writing letters, making phone calls, talking with people - that IS doing something.

As a matter of fact, that is the core of democracy and I bet in Athens, that's how it was done.

What on Earth are you referring to when you suggest that we must sacrifice our livelihoods or even, God forbid, our LIVES, in order to be effective? My God, what are you talking about?! I'm not suggesting we go to Iraq or anything. How is talking ineffective?

[Blecht]

61. Are you really that ignorant of history?

That's not meant to be an insult, by the way. One of us is ignorant, that's for sure, because I cannot think of one example of real progress being accomplished in our country without lots of people getting jailed, beaten or killed.

Just a few:

Eliminating slavery
Workers' rights
Women's suffrage
Civil rights

A lot of people paid dearly for many things we take for granted. Maybe you can enlighten me -- name one example of real, progressive change occurring in our country without somebody suffering.

We might be able to get a few crumbs now and then without putting anything on the line, but it will take the sacrifice of many to get anything substantial accomplished. It's always been that way.

[LanternWaste]

63. WPA. That's just one.

WPA. That's just one.

Violence has a time and a place, but I don't think it's all the time and in all places...

[Blecht]

65. Thanks for the example

Let me move the goalposts -- how about an example from a time period in which the US was not in shambles?

BTW, I'm in no way advocating violence. Most of the time it's the people in power who wield the violence over the powerless.

Why should the corporate world, and their bought members of Congress, listen to us? It will take more than words - civil disobedience isn't easy -- you have to be willing to go to jail, get beaten, or maybe even killed.

The alternative is to wait for a collapse on a par with the Great Depression, but nobody wants that.

[closeupready]

64. South African disinvestment during apartheid.

n/t

[Blecht]

66. From the Wikipedia entry

At many universities, many students and faculty protested in order to force action on the issue. For example, in April, 1986, 61 students were arrested after building a shantytown in front of the chancellor's office at UC Berkeley.

It's hard, isn't it?

Somebody has to be willing to be arrested, beaten or killed, or we have to wait for a Great Depression. Otherwise, nothing happens.

[closeupready]

67. Except Shelby is saying there is NO DEAL, and to my knowledge,

nobody has been arrested, beaten or killed for speaking out against this deal.

[Blecht]

70. Believe it or not, I'm on your side

And I'm heading to one of these in a couple of hours: http://truemajority.wiredforchange.com/o/8/t/107/event/search.jsp?distributed_event_KEY=5

I'm hopeful that we can stop this, but I'm not very confident -- in fact, I am incredibly frustrated with the news that a deal is being made. That's all I'm trying to convey in my posts today.

My main point: If we can stop this bailout and force our elected officials to seize the opportunity to reign in Wall Street, it would definitely be an historic event. I'm not going to hold my breath, though.

[Blecht]

23. I callled my Senators and Representative

I'm going to vote against any Republican that runs for any office.

And I'll probably make a few angry posts on an Internet message board.

When I wrote "nobody" above, I was including myself.

[Naturalist]

24. I will meet to contest this. I will visit in person my representatives

offices to let them know. I am all for signing a petition to declare a immediate vote by the people of this country and replace these criminals with everyday common people. I think we need to give this country back to it's citizens. You draw up the petition and I will sign it. Can you do that, or are you just playing a question game?

[dchill]

36. I don't know about Blecht, but here's my plan:

(From my post #34)

I see that Secretary Paulson is worth $700 million...

There must be at least 1000 guys just like him* - they are the ones who got us all into this, so they should just bail themselves out. They could, you know - think about it.

I think that's a good plan.

[Individualist]

10. Taxation without representation

Government of, by and for the corporations.

[NeedleCast]

11. The counter proposal doesn't seem terrible

From CNN:

"The proposal will help homeowners, curb executive pay packages at participating firms and provide oversight of Treasury's actions, said Sen. Christopher Dodd, D-Conn., a key architect of the congressional effort. He did not provide details but said lawmakers will sit down with Treasury officials to discuss it."

I'll wait for details, but done correctly, I think the bail out is a good idea. It looks like the Democratic congress-critters and lawmakers essentially got what they wanted included in the bill.

[Naturalist]

14. You were threatened with losing your job, home, money and

you think this proposal is a good idea. Blackmailers always ask for more money. We just spent Billions for Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac and AIG and then they asked for more. Think man think!

[pnutbutr]

20. blackmail?

how about reality. If the banks fall the economy crashes and millions would lose their jobs, homes and money making the problem even worse. Go learn how the US financial system works, then come back and discuss what you think should be done.

[galileoreloaded]

60. Going to happen anyway, or don't YOU understand......n/t

[NeedleCast]

21. I was?

I work for a non-profit...my job wasn't ever being theatened by this. I don't own a home, so that's not really being threatened either and I'm fairly sure my money is safe where it is.

This is a rock-and-a-hard-place situation. Do I like bailing these companies out? No. I like the alternative even less, however. With democrats doing over-sight, a cap on CEO/executive pay-offs and a proposal to help home owners, I'm pretty happy with the plan. Not happy that it had to happen in the first place.

[Greyhound]

40. How? By propping up inflated house prices that few can afford?

By ensuring the parasite class don't lose it's ill-gotten gains?

By continuing the erosion of our power and rights?

By delaying the inevitable until the Democrats can take the whole blame?

How does this help anyone that has lost all they worked for?

[NeedleCast]

42. By the numbers

1. I think part of the oversight on this is an end to draconian lending practices. I may be wrong.

2. Yeah, I don't like that much, but the alternative is worse.

3. How does this continue erosion of power and rights?

4. I don't think a total collapse is inevitable.

5. It doensn't. Neither does a total collapse.

[Greyhound]

49. The world is not binary and there infinite degrees between bankrupting the nation

or the so-called "total collapse" scare tactics and fictional "Mad Max" images sold to the sheeple.

I think the most relevant, yet completely ignored, issue is the fundamental instability in the system as it exists. Not one provision, or proposed provision, of this scam comes close to that particular elephant.

Oh, and the looming derivatives tsunami that they won;t even mention. That makes this look like loose change lost in the sofa.

All this does is give the criminals one last dip in the trough on their way out the door.

[Union Thug]

13. Like good americans, we bend over and accept being raped by our corporate overlords.

Americans lost the will to fight a generation ago.

[Blecht]

38. And getting the will to fight back is going to be impossible

...unless we lose everything.

Too many believe what they see on TV, which is telling them that everything will be OK as long as we continue to put up with the rape. Why should we risk everything when the TV world, the one with Dancing with the Stars, is still functioning?

I wish things were different, but we're too comfy even with this bailout being rammed up our asses.

"No hope? See, that's what gives me guts!" D. Boon

On Edit: Put in a "?" where it belonged.

[Union Thug]

78. Yeah, I guess that's really what it comes down to.

TV land has also functioned to create the illusion of alienation from one another, and has contributed to removing that basic sense of community and camaraderie that must provide the foundation for any major social action in times of crisis.

So long as we believe that its better to continue to give up more and more of our economic sovereignty to the all power, almost deified CEO class, then you are right, nothing is going to change. After all, we are alone and powerless. The wholesale co-opting of the corporate media by the ruling class has undermined our what our gut has been telling us. Despite a visceral awareness of growing economic oppression, the media, by evangelizing the values and world view of the ruling class, while ignoring or even contemptuously disregarding that of the average working American, has contributed to our self-immolation. We've been taught not to trust our instincts and to leave all the important decisions to our social betters.

[Chisox08]

52. We didn't lose the will to fight

We just can't afford to fight.

[Union Thug]

77. This is an interesting point

Do you mean this figuratively, as in the social and political costs of fighting would ultimately work against us, or do you mean that we cannot bear the financial risk?

If the former, I would be interested in learning about why you say this. If the latter, I must admit that I often suffer the same fear. But then I look back to my personal heroes - those that engaged in the mammoth minneapolis teamsters strikes of 1934. Many of these men and women couldn't 'afford' to engage in what turned out to be something closer to civil war than a labor dispute, but they did. They came together, set up triage centers for the injured, worked collectively to ensure that people were fed and stood up to the powerful citizens alliance and their proxies in law enforcement and even the national guard. And they won. They did it be awakening a sense of shared destiny in the people. I think it was Karl Skoglund who originally made the big push to engage the unemployed and bring them into the fray. By pointing out that the unemployed masses and the employed who were walking out to affect change shared the same plight, the community came together to fight the common enemy.

It's never easy, but real change rarely comes from the voting booth - it comes as a result of the action of courageous citizens standing up and putting everything a risk for the greater good.

[dee15644]

15. call, write

I have called or wrote to both my Senators,Congressman, Pelosi,Reid,McCain and Obama. I will not vote for ANY of them or donate any money should this thing pass!!!!! and I let them know that.

[Naturalist]

19. EXCELLENT!!!!!

I have posted that if any Democrat votes for this thing they are Doomed. Not to mention stupid.

[nolabels]

25. They are owned and installed by the establishment which also ran by corporations

So people who are surprised that they would pass this bail out in face of overwhelming public opposition really need to understand who congress actually works for.

The is US run by rule of an oligarchy and people imagine that things are different really need to examine their beliefs. The facts are there and the high-mindedness does not serve anybody

[Naturalist]

26. Now we are getting closer to the truth.

So what can or should we do about it? Theses discussions should be about finding a resolution for this problem.

[nolabels]

35. The first idea that would pop into my head

Would be very strict laws on any groups or people who are paid or make any substantial part of their income lobbying governmental officials.

Another would be a real peoples congress with numbers in the tens of thousands that would be elected by local councils that could overrule or just veto by vote of the majority any federal legislation that was found untenable.

There must be thousands of other ideas out there, we all must just get collective and push the best and most workable ones into existence. The in the hurry stuff is just a con-game.

The bail-out isn't going to work, just like any other math calculations that are in error, it will fail.

[Spike from MN]

27. I plan to invest in Vaseline.

Maybe I should diversify a bit and invest in KY Jelly too.

[adamuu]

39. they aren't kind enough to allow you to use it.

you can stare at the unopened container nearby...

[Thothmes]

76. The Govt will throw sand in it.

[Spike from MN]

79. You're so right.

And then they will make me pay for the damn sand.

[anarch]

28. well I'm marching down to the Hill

where I'll cross my arms, look stern, and shake my head sadly at all the lawmakers.

First maybe I'll call all of DC's voting representation in Congress...oh, wait...n/m.

[Naturalist]

31. Petition time.

[Marr]

30. Our representatives are forming a united front--

AGAINST the public. So long as all the nation's powerful institutions-- from government to Wall Street-- stand firm against the people and support one another, the only form of dissent that will have *any* effect is mass strikes or revolt.

Of course, there is no more Posse Comitatus and we have a military division coming home whose *stated mission* is dealing with precisely those scenarios.

[Naturalist]

32. Hmm gee I wonder?

[Douglas Carpenter]

33. If this bill is not passed in some form the U.S. economy will disintegrate and we will all be in a

massive 1930's style depression by the end of the year.

THIS IS NOT SOME GRAND CONSPIRACY!! THAT IS BEYOND ABSURD!!!

This meltdown is the perfectly logical consequences of decades of massive and usustainable speculation financed by massive and unsustainable lending and borrowing..

Frankly I and many other people of the left were predicting this collapse ever since deregulation and so-called "free market" economics become the dominant American policy, frequently with the support of many prominent Democrats.

What is happening is the natural consequences of rabid, deregulated -out of control market forces - the natural results of the transition in the Western world from a somewhat regulated production based economy to a deregulated, speculation based economy financed by rabid lending and borrowing.

There was a time when all respectable stock brokers advised their clients to carefully study their potential investments and cautiously buy on a gradual bases - and not to pay too much attention to normal fluctuations of market values - but through gradual cautious investment and holding on to their investments - a healthy nest egg would be accumulated over a period of decades.

There was time in which people bought houses for a place to live. Or if real estate was purchased for investment purposes, it was based like stocks on gradual cautious investment

Then this approach to solid conservative investing was replaced by a "business ethic" that demanded enormous returns - and investment took on the ethos of a Las Vegas casino on the high-rollers floor.

Of course there has to be a bailout that will undoubtedly cost hundreds of billions of dollars, unless one is prepared to accept a very strong probability of a 1930's level depression. All sane and rational people know this!

Could a depression still happen anyway? Yes, but this buys some time that hopefully might allow the markets to stabilize,

Of course Democrats and other progressives ABSOLUTELY MUST be fighting to insure that the bailout protects ordinary homeowners and establishes permanent new controls over the markets and penalizes rather than rewards the culprits.

And most importantly Democrats must now completely and forever reject the crackpot economics that caused this mess and NEVER, NEVER, NEVER AGAIN ALLOW ANY QUARTER WHATSOEVER for the ideological lunacy of speculation based, unregulated "free market" capitalism.

[Naturalist]

37. Explain why our economy will fall

Clear precise and simple.
I have the question then in parenthesis I have my answer. Put yours. Couple of questions for you at the bottom.

1. Why will we loose jobs?
(If your going to say the companies won't have any money to run their operations, let's loan them the money through Freddie Mac since we own it and make the interest)

2. Why will we loose our homes?
(If we loan the business money then I will still have a job.)

3. Why will we have no food?
(If we loan the business money then I will still have money to buy food.)

4. Why will we have no money?
(If I have a job I can make money.)

5. Why home prices will fall?
(Use Fannie Mae to loan money to people to buy homes so that prices won't fall.)


Isn't that what the 700 Billion is for?

Aren't those businesses getting the money going to do the very same thing?

[Naturalist]

41. I thought so

do I hear crickets?

[Douglas Carpenter]

45. the simple fact is - the massive decline in real estate equity values - has created a massive

worldwide withdrawal from the credit markets - this created panic among the markets all over the world - thus triggering the failure of multiple banks and other insurance and investment institutions.

This massive withdraw of credit - removes financial liquidity from the markets and will - basically cause the economy to grind to a halt.

Could this happen anyway even with the bailout? Yes it could. But this buys some time and gives the chance for markets to stabilize.

If you simply don't want to understand the situation. Then nothing can force you to.

I am not supporting the bailout as a supporter of Wall Street. I got rid of my stocks a long, long time ago. I say this as someone who does not want to see a depression. I say this as a lifelong democratic-socialist who believes humanity is more important than ideology

[NeedleCast]

43. Well Said

n/t

[dchill]

62. I'm not questioning the validity of your post, but...

Why now? Forty days before a presidential election, at a time when John McCain's campaign is in dire disarray, the Republican party schemes to drag the Democrats down with them. How better to do that than to vote against a piece of legislation that can't help but turn every non-wealthy American against them?

This country needs more information about this crisis, and the only way to allow that is to let a little sunlight reach this mess, and figure out who is responsible, get them out of their positions, then pass legislation that prevents the underhanded and dishonest behavior, and props up the market. It's also going to be necessary to allow the market shrink to its true value. That means recession, but then it always does. And it's going to take some time, regardless of the cries of "CRISIS!"

[Douglas Carpenter]

69. the timing is playing out in a way that plays to the benefit of Democrats

ALL polls, without ANY EXCEPTIONS indicate that this crisis is greatly benefits the Obama campaign and the Democrats. Remember how the Republicans were moving ahead just two weeks ago?

Why on earth would the Republicans deliberately make a maneuver that completely discredits, unregulated "free market" orthodoxy for the next generation? An orthodoxy they have preaching for several decades -

The only shock about the timing - is that the timing is playing out in a way that plays to the benefit of Democrats. It is beyond ludicrous to suggest that the Republicans would intentionally sabotage their own party's chances in the upcoming election and massively discredit their own party's ideological orthodoxy.

Time really is a factor here. In this computer age it takes only minutes for massive financial changes to occur. I happen to know both anecdotally from acquaintances and from solid economic writing that real panic was spreading all over the world last week - a situation in which total financial liquidity could dry up within hours. If that were to happen the whole thing collapses like a deck of cards within hours. A Singaporean banker I know who works out of the Gulf personally told me that he took a loss of half a million dollars last week. Because he sees a situation of complete meltdown looming. Could it still happen anyway, even with a bailout? Yes it could. But a bailout would buy some time and might give markets a chance to stabilize.

This is the reality. With a bailout there will be some very negative consequences, especially inflation...and the markets could still collapse.

If there is no bailout. The whole thing collapses within weeks; before the election.

I would prefer a bailout that MIGHT prevent a collapse over no bailout that WILL mean a collapse.

[dchill]

71. I think that the only bailout that Congressional Republicans...

are interested in is for their political careers. I think they want to leverage a "bailout" that will only benefit the rich investors, and then blame the Democrats for the "failure to protect the American people." I have never seen one single reason to trust the motives of these charlatans, and don't see one now. And that especially includes McCain, Bush, Paulson and Bernanke. If they know a crisis is coming (and they have known for months), then their move will be to drag everyone down with them.

[Douglas Carpenter]

72. Judging by Sen Shelby's comments - the bailout might not pass

To be fair many of these Republicans are "free market" fundamentalist and would oppose the bailout as a matter of principle. On ideological principles - the Republicans should reject it. As Milton Friedman said, "corruption is the interference of government in the hand of market forces by way of regulation."

However, the most pro-deregulation government, pro-privatization government in the history of the United States - has just nationalized two of America's largest banks and the world's largest insurance carrier.

The Bush Administration has simply found itself in the situation in which the whole world is watching their ideology collapse - and they are desperate. They are acting like the proverbial atheist in a foxhole. They are panicking - because the markets are collapsing due in large in part to the ideology they have spent a life time preaching.

All evidence indicates that this economic meltdown will discredit their ideology for at least a generation, and will probably certify their defeat this November. I find it inconceivable that they would try to engineer their own defeat and discredit their own ideological foundation, perhaps forever.

No doubt some Republicans are thinking that they would like to let the bailout to pass with only Democratic votes - thus trying to pull a fast one. But the Democratic leadership is simply not going to play that game.

So, it might not pass. People should understand what the consequences of that will be.

[dchill]

73. I'm just afraid that Democrats (and most Americans)...

are being played. If the bailout doesn't pass, or doesn't provide accountability and stipulation of imminent regulation, then I believe the bailout will fail, even as a temporary fix. And I don't see Republicans as backing either accountability or regulation. And, I'm not so sure that consequences CAN be avoided - except for the bailees.

[Douglas Carpenter]

74. selling mattresses might be a good business to consider

That will be safest place for people to keep their money if liquidity in the markets collapses. And that WILL happen and it WILL happen soon if a bailout in some form that will cost hundreds of billions of dollars does not go through.

There is no way the Democrats will back a bailout without certain conditions - and there is no way the Democrats will back it without the majority of Republicans including Sen. McCain backing it too.

[dchill]

34. I see that Secretary Paulson is worth $700 million...

There must be at least 1000 guys just like him* - they are the ones who got us all into this, so they should just bail themselves out. They could, you know - think about it. How about THAT, Mr. Fung?

:shrug:

[Naturalist]

46. Read all the posts.

50/50 on a supposedly Democratic web site. It would probably be the same on a Republican web site. They have suckered you in on their game with the 401k's and wall street investments. The people who don't participate in the casino games are the only ones who might be willing to dare to confront for their freedom. The others have sold out to greed and have lost their will to fight for freedom. I spent 3 yrs in the service how about you?

[dchill]

50. MSNBC just reported that about a third...

support a bailout. I have no 401k or investments, and I was never in the service. I DO have a mortgage, but it's a regular one that is still hard to pay. I do not support a bailout, but then I'm not privy to any "Real Story(tm)" that might be available to others.

I still think there are at least 1000 guys just like Paulson, with his $700 million, that could just bail themselves out of the supposed mess.

[MiniMe]

48. I'm NOT going to Disney World

[KG]

51. write a letter expressing my outrage. boy, that'll show 'em!

:eyes:

it will be shredded even as my reps vote for this clusterfuck and i'm sure my address added to fundraising lists. :eyes:

[Naturalist]

53. true so true

[screembloodymurder]

54. Eliminate every last one of them that voted for it.

One by one, we must see that they do not get elected again. We need to fund their opponents.

[Naturalist]

55. Snakes in the Grass

There are more opponents on here than you think. Keep that in mind

[question everything]

56. Not against my will. And the ones who don't want it are the dumb ones

who love Sarah Palin, who think that Obama will raise taxes and that he is Muslim.

Since when do we here, on DU, give so much credence to the common man in the street?

[Naturalist]

57. Come up with some Ideas people!

Put your two cents in. We need some ideas!

[onethatcares]

58. I want to see the PLAN

In every newspaper and every television news show, ABC, CNN, NBC, MSNBC, FAUX, CSPAN anywhere people are. Post the damn thing on the telephone polls but let we the citizens see how badly we're getting screwed and by whom.

[galileoreloaded]

59. Default on personal unsecured debt, vote out incumbents of course...n/t

[Romulox]

68. The government TOLD us (not ASKED) they were doing this. This is fascism. nt

[Naturalist]

75. Any ideas on what we can do?