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Is our capitalist economic system worth saving?

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kentuck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-27-08 09:35 PM
Original message
Is our capitalist economic system worth saving?
Is any economic system that has such a high cost to its citizens worth saving?

If not, what would we replace it with? What would we do with all of our debt? Simply default on it? Tell China and the rest of the world, "Sorry, we are bankrupt."

If we did that, could we survive as a nation, since most of our manufacturing base is now overseas? How would we rebuild our economy? What standard of currency would we use? Would we reprint new money with the faith and trust of the United States behind it?

At what point do we stop paying off the capitalist system just so they can survive? If it doesn't work for the people, of what benefit is its survival?

Have we reached a point with out debt burden, that we can no longer operate as a functioning capitalist country, no matter how much we pay to bail it out?

These are a few questions rumbling thru my brain...

Do we have any other choices but to give them what they ask for??
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Tuesday Afternoon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-27-08 09:36 PM
Response to Original message
1. barter, anyone?
:shrug:
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otherlander Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-27-08 09:49 PM
Response to Reply #1
5. I'm in!
:)
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originalpckelly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-27-08 09:53 PM
Response to Reply #1
8. How will you overcome the coincidence of wants problem?
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aquart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-27-08 10:41 PM
Response to Reply #1
14. Yeah, why would anyone want to replace that ancient system?
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ananda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-27-08 09:37 PM
Response to Original message
2. How about..
Cooperacy.
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kentuck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-27-08 09:39 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. Explain...
the working theory of co-ops.
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ElboRuum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-27-08 09:47 PM
Response to Original message
4. The fact is that no economic system...
...ever exists without a political backdrop. The problem isn't with capitalism, but rather with its political deification. Discuss.
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originalpckelly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-27-08 09:52 PM
Response to Original message
6. No, it isn't. That doesn't mean we should do away with capitalism...
it means we should start over with real capitalism. I've been thinking about this for a while now, and have lots of ideas of how to make our nation far more democratic, and every one of them goes straight through the economy.
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kentuck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-27-08 09:58 PM
Response to Reply #6
9. Obviously, our present capitalist system is barely related to democracy...
our supposedly political system. Somehow capitalism has to work for all the people or it is worthless. It should create wealth for all our people. It should create a larger middle class with the rewards from labor. If it doesn't do that, it should not be considered a friend of democracy.
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pork medley Donating Member (262 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-27-08 09:53 PM
Response to Original message
7. a spectre is haunting america...
Edited on Sat Sep-27-08 09:54 PM by batwing
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Selatius Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-27-08 10:12 PM
Response to Original message
10. I favor a form of market socialism as a replacement for the current model.
Edited on Sat Sep-27-08 10:16 PM by Selatius
It wouldn't require the overthrow of existing order, merely a modification of the tax code to generate revenue which can then be used to establish public banks with the purpose of starting up labor co-ops, capitalizing existing co-ops, and buying out existing firms to be reorganized into co-ops. In time, you will have an economy with a large co-op sector as well as a private sector. In essence, workers would have a true choice between working for each other collectively in employee-owned firms or working for a traditional private employer. Given such an environment of competition between co-ops and traditional firms, private employers would be constrained in terms of exploiting labor unless they want to drive workers away into the co-op sector permanently:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_democracy#An_alternative_model

Many analysts argue that both full employment and basic income guarantee are impossible under the restrictions of the current economic system for two primary reasons: First, unemployment is an essential feature of capitalism, not an indication of systemic failure.<4> Second, while capitalism thrives under polyarchy, it is not compatible with genuine democracy. <4> Suggesting that these "democratic deficits" significantly impact the management of both workplace and new investment,<4> some proponents of Economic Democracy favor the creation and implementation of a new economic model over reform of the existing one. In these terms, Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. suggests that, "Communism forgets that life is individual. Capitalism forgets that life is social, and the Kingdom of Brotherhood is found neither in the thesis of Communism nor the antithesis of Capitalism but in a higher synthesis. It is found in a higher synthesis that combines the truths of both".<22>

Assuming that "democracy is not just a political value, but one with profound economic implications", David Schweickart suggests "the problem is not to choose between plan and market, but to integrate these institutions into a democratic framework".<23> According to Schweickart, "Economic Democracy, like capitalism, can be defined in terms of three basic features:

* Worker Self-Management: Each productive enterprise is controlled democratically by its workers.

* The Market: These enterprises interact with one another and with consumers in an environment largely free of governmental price controls. Raw materials, instruments of production and consumer goods are all bought and sold at prices largely determined by the forces of supply and demand.

* Social Control of Investment: Funds for new investment are generated by a capital assets tax and are returned to the economy through a network of public investment banks."<4>


Schweickart concedes this basic model might seem stylized and oversimplified, as analysts tend to use simplified models to explain the basic laws of any system. In real-world practice, Economic Democracy will be more complicated and less "pure" than this abstract model. However, to grasp the nature of the system and to understand its essential dynamic, it is important to have a clear picture of the basic structure.

...

Although workers control the workplace, they do not "own" the means of production in Schweickart's model. Productive resources are regarded as the collective property of the society. Workers have the right to run the enterprise, to use its capital assets as they see fit, and to distribute among themselves the whole of the net profit from production. Societal "ownership" of the enterprise manifests itself in two ways.

* All firms must pay a tax on their capital assets, which goes into society's investment fund. In effect, workers rent their capital assets from society.

* Firms are required to preserve the value of the capital stock entrusted to them. This means that a depreciation fund must be maintained. Money must be set aside to repair or replace existing capital stock. This money may be spent on whatever capital replacements or improvements the firm deems fit, but it may not be used to supplement workers' incomes.


If a firm is unable to generate even the nationally-specified minimum per-capita income, then it must declare bankruptcy. Movable capital will be sold off to pay creditors. The workers must seek employment elsewhere. In such economic difficulty, workers are free to reorganize the facility, or to leave and seek work elsewhere. They are not free to sell off their capital stocks and use the proceeds as income. A firm can sell off capital stocks and use the proceeds to buy additional capital goods. Or, if the firm wishes to contract its capital base so as to reduce its tax and depreciation obligations, it can sell off some of its assets, but in this case proceeds from the sale go into the national investment fund, not to the workers, since these assets belong to society as a whole.

According to David Schweickart, Economic Democracy is a market economy, at least insofar as the allocation of consumer and capital goods is concerned. Firms buy raw materials and machinery from other firms and sell their products to other enterprises or consumers. "Prices are largely unregulated except by supply and demand, although in some cases price controls or price supports might be in order -- as they are deemed in order in most real-world forms of capitalism."

Without a price mechanism sensitive to supply and demand, it is extremely difficult for a producer or planner to know what and how much to produce, and which production and marketing methods are the most efficient. It is also extremely difficult in the absence of a market to design a set of incentives that will motivate producers to be both efficient and innovative. Market competition resolves these problems, to a significant if incomplete degree, in a non-authoritarian, non-bureaucratic fashion.
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kentuck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-27-08 10:20 PM
Response to Original message
11. Here is an interesting history of how we got where we are today...
Edited on Sat Sep-27-08 10:44 PM by kentuck
www.globalreasearch.ca

The Wall Street Ponzi Scheme

The Ponzi scheme that has gone bad is not just another misguided investment strategy. It is at the very heart of the banking business, the thing that has propped it up over the course of three centuries. A Ponzi scheme is a form of pyramid scheme in which new investors must continually be sucked in at the bottom to support the investors at the top. In this case, new borrowers must continually be sucked in to support the creditors at the top. The Wall Street Ponzi scheme is built on “fractional reserve” lending, which allows banks to create “credit” (or “debt”) with accounting entries. Banks are now allowed to lend from 10 to 30 times their “reserves,” essentially counterfeiting the money they lend. Over 97 percent of the U.S. money supply (M3) has been created by banks in this way.2 The problem is that banks create only the principal and not the interest necessary to pay back their loans, so new borrowers must continually be found to take out new loans just to create enough “money” (or “credit”) to service the old loans composing the money supply. The scramble to find new debtors has now gone on for over 300 years - ever since the founding of the Bank of England in 1694 - until the whole world has become mired in debt to the bankers' private money monopoly. The Ponzi scheme has finally reached its mathematical limits: we are “all borrowed up.”

When the banks ran out of creditworthy borrowers, they had to turn to uncreditworthy “subprime” borrowers; and to avoid losses from default, they moved these risky mortgages off their books by bundling them into “securities” and selling them to investors. To induce investors to buy, these securities were then “insured” with credit default swaps. But the housing bubble itself was another Ponzi scheme, and eventually there were no more borrowers to be sucked in at the bottom who could afford the ever-inflating home prices. When the subprime borrowers quit paying, the investors quit buying mortgage-backed securities. The banks were then left holding their own suspect paper; and without triple-A ratings, there is little chance that buyers for this “junk” will be found. The crisis is not, however, in the economy itself, which is fundamentally sound - or would be with a proper credit system to oil the wheels of production. The crisis is in the banking system, which can no longer cover up the shell game it has played for three centuries with other people's money.

...more
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FarCenter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-27-08 10:22 PM
Response to Original message
12. We know what economic collapse of a superpower looks like -- see Soviet Union 1993
Economic activity grinds to a halt, martial law, geographic breakup, militias, organized crime, warlords, oligarchs, etc.

Lack of services, destitution, no health care, decreased life span, population drops, ...

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FarCenter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-27-08 10:24 PM
Response to Reply #12
13. Of course, on the bright side....
We wouldn't have any troops in Iraq or Afghanistan, or any where else overseas.

And we wouldn't have to worry about Islamic terrorism any more.
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leftofthedial Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-27-08 10:43 PM
Response to Original message
15. no. IT WILL FAIL.
Edited on Sat Sep-27-08 10:44 PM by leftofthedial
If not now, then the next time or the next. It is an unsustainable system, built on the premise that there will always be more and more and more, when the opposite is obvious to anyone who bothers to consider it.

Meanwhile, its two main effects are to transfer wealth from workers to a tiny elite and to fuel the destruction of our planet.
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TreasonousBastard Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-27-08 11:25 PM
Response to Original message
16. Of course it is, unless you can come up with...
a workable alternative system. Good luck finding one-- note what happened to one promising alternative system in the 20th century.

Remember that the present forms of Western capitalism have been evolving for several hundred, if not thousand, years and are now a mixed economies with some of the better parts of socialism and other systems built into them. And, they are still evolving-- the present troubles in Wall Street may mean that Wall Street has become largely irrelevant to a modern capitalist economy. The functions of raising capital have been relegated to the back burner by the investment houses so they can focus on casino operations, and raising capital may now be better done by other means.

Financial institutions absolutely have to be regulated, and a strong central bank absolutely has to be there to iron out the wrinkles. Too often in the past the regulators have been convniced that they are no longer needed, and every single time that has happened disaster struck -- financial instiutions are incapable of self-regulation, and any alleged claims of self-sustaining market regulation have been proven to be mythical.

So, a reasonably regulated capitalist economy should do just fine, and the problem is not capitalism-- it is frontier capitalism.







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