Would you like for Dem leadership to take consideration ...

[Mr_Jefferson_24]

... and/or passage of ANY bailout plan off the table until January of next year after BushCo is gone?

And secondly, do you suspect Paulson and Bernanke are spearheading what is actually a manufactured crisis and a giant scam on Congress and the taxpayers?

[willing dwarf]

1. We need to lock up the Wall Street swindlers

Put them in jail without bail while a grand jury investigates this whole stinking deal!

[Mr_Jefferson_24]

2. Agreed -- this mess screams for accountability...

...as does the seemingly never ending nightmare that is Chimpy's entire eight year reign.

[sandnsea]

3. Do you understand what No Money means?

:banghead:

[Realityhack]

4. I am going to go with obviously not....

did I win anything?

[Mr_Jefferson_24]

6. I presume that question is rhetorical and designed to...

...make some point? Sorry, missed it.

If you really support this rushed bailout because the same con artists who brought you the Iraq war, The Patriot Act, The Military Commissions Act, and The Homegrown Terrorist Prevention Act now have you once again frightened enough to sign off on ANYTHING they ask for, I suggest you follow these simple steps:

Step 1: Watch this brief video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cWxTQbfsEA8

Step 2: Think about the message of the video carefully.

Step 3: If you still support approval of a rushed through bailout plan, repeat steps 1 thru 3.

Step 4: If you've made it here to step 4, congratulations, you're evolving.

[sandnsea]

9. So only agreeing with you is evolving?

Is that it? And what of a plan that has equity, oversight, and taxpayer protection?

[Mr_Jefferson_24]

14. No, Sandnsea, getting control of your fear and coming around to seeing...

...through the con artistry that's been repeatedly played on us for the last eight years, is evolving.

BTW, I meant no insult by that video, and wasn't trying to imply that you are stupid, or an idiot, or lean Republican, but rather to suggest that you seem to be vulnerable to these fear tactics that work so well on so many Republicans.

Fear and reasoned thought do not mix well, that's why it's so important to them to put a scare into us, as well as create a false sense of urgency as they pursue this bailout con. Thoughtful analysis and reasoned debate are enemies of the con man -- he will always set up his mark to prevent the opportunity for either. Creating the false sense of urgency is very often the chosen methodology.

[sandnsea]

16. bwahahahaha

I've got absolutely NOTHING to lose. NOTHING. I'm not afraid of anything. I'm just looking at reality. It doesn't particularly matter what's true or false at this point. What matters is what will happen without the bail-out, and it will be ugly. If you don't give a crap about anybody else, that's your choice. I do. I know what homelessness and food kitchens are all about and I don't want to see anymore of that than we already have. If you can't see the writing on the wall with the failure of bank after bank, then maybe you need to figure out what emotion you're running on because it's a helluva lot more dangerous than fear.

[Mr_Jefferson_24]

18. "It doesn't particularly matter what's true or false at this point."

I don't know how to respond to someone who would take such a position.

Sleep on it and come back tomorrow after a bit of reflection, Sandnsea.

I have an idea you might come around to seeing the truth of the matter (and it DOES matter): we're being conned.

[girl gone mad]

20. Talking about how "ugly" it'sgoing to get without a bailout..

is fear mongering.

Most experts that I've read say it will be ugly with or without a bailout and rushing legislation through as has been attempted over the last week is a terrible idea.

[sandnsea]

22. Have you read one expert objection?

Do you even know how many object because they believe it will prove the free market is a failure - and how many object for other reasons? Do you know what their specific objections are?

[girl gone mad]

23. I've read dozens of expert objections.

For example,

The Paulson bailout plan for financial institutions has produced a sharp split among economists, with many nonpartisan academic economists opposing or questioning it while many economists on Wall Street urge Congress to produce it. One prominent group of nearly 200 economists from the University of Chicago, MIT, Stanford, Harvard and dozens of other institutions have asked Congress to pause and spend at least a few days hearing testimony on the plan. The concerns of so many distinguished economists, including several Nobel Laureates, that sufficient deliberation must be taken before enacting such a consequential plan, should give pause to policymakers in Washington.

http://www.city-journal.org/2008/eon0926sm.html

and

Many of the same economists and opinion-makers who'd provided a bipartisan sheen of consensus to Treasury Secretary Henry Paulson's previous moves have quickly begun casting doubts on the wisdom of a policy that would allow Treasury to purchase without oversight hundreds of billions of dollars of difficult-to-price assets from financial institutions.

Under the proposal, Paulson would not have to report to Congress until December, and the only safeguard for taxpayers was a provision that the “Secretary shall take into consideration means for — (1) providing stability or preventing disruption to the financial markets or banking system; and (2) protecting the taxpayer.”

Skepticism toward the plan reflected more than the predictable desires of the left to spread the wealth to Main Street or of the right to reject government bailouts, although those sentiments were also expressed.

"We need to take a bold move. In that sense I think Paulson is right," Luigi Zingales, a Professor at the University of Chicago School of Business who wrote a widely circulated short essay titled "Why Paulson is Wrong,” told Politico.

Zingales fears that the Treasury bailout would effectively turn the entire financial sector into a Government Sponsored Enterprise, complete with the same murkiness and moral hazard that sunk Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac. “It might achieve the final outcome, but it will do so at an enormous cost," he said. "All the troubles we’ve seen with Fannie and Freddie would be seen again and again across the entire financial sector."

Sebastian Mallaby, the center-right economic columnist for The Washington Post and scholar of the modern financial system, was equally dubious. “The plan is being marketed under false pretenses," he wrote in his Sunday column, rejecting comparisons of the plan to the Resolution Trust Corporation, which the government formed in response to the savings and loan crisis to purchase and sell off the bad loans made by bankrupted thrifts.

“The administration proposes to buy up bad loans before the lenders go bust,” Mallaby noted, keeping the banks alive but doing little to solve the problem infecting the markets. “Bad loans are weighing down the financial system precisely because private-sector experts can't determine their worth. The government would have no better handle on the problem.”

Justin Fox, Time magazine's top financial writer and columnist, also worried about the lack of an upside for the taxpayer. "What I still can't figure out is how Treasury hopes to structure the bailout so there's at least a chance of getting a fair return on that risk-taking," he wrote on his blog.

"How on earth will these things be priced?" Portfolio's Felix Salmon asked about the bad debt Paulson plans to purchase. He also pointed out that Treasury would need to stock its office with bond-trading professionals. "All we know so far is that it's going to be set up as a reverse auction, but that raises more questions than it answers."

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0908/13689.html

[sandnsea]

28. No, that is an article about experts

You can't know what experts are really saying unless you read their opinions in their entirety. These articles are mixing up all kinds of opinions, including a number of economists who opposed Paulson's original plan while recommending exactly what we're getting.

[Mr_Jefferson_24]

27. Some very good editorials taking a calm and reasoned...

...look at this crisis have been written, Sandnsea -- please dig right in:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=385x197620

[sandnsea]

29. See #28

The economists' objections to this bail-out fall into three categories. Objections to the original Paulson plan, which we don't have anymore. Objections because of faith in the free market, still, which is absurd. And typical objections from the fringe. It's hysterical that people object to government control of banks, but beg for government control of health care. It's also hysterical that people are screaming for help for homeowners, which has existed for at least a year, with improved assistance going into effect on Oct 1. Where have they been in advocating to make that legislation better? Nowhere. And then they wonder why politicians can't take them seriously.

[Mr_Jefferson_24]

30. Your categorical summary of opposition to this rushed...

...foolishness to pass some kind of bailout legislation is grossly misleading.

It doesn't sound like you actually read any of the editorials.

As you reflect over the last eight years, Sandnsea, can you think of so many as one, just one, important piece of legislation that Chimpy has pushed for and gotten, that is/was actually in the best interests of the U.S. citizenry. I can't.

Do you really think this will be the big exception? -- the one that really will serve the interests of the public?

Your naivety astounds.

[sandnsea]

31. Why can't you argue the points of the economists

instead of attacking me?

[Mr_Jefferson_24]

32. If you think there's a compelling case to be made for...

...rushing through legislation to prop up a bunch of horribly mismanaged investment banks with taxpayer money, then let's have it -- so far it sounds like you want to do it only because Chimpy tells you to or bad things will happen.

Same song and dance we got in the lead up to our illegal invasion/occupation of Iraq if you'll recall.

[TahitiNut]

10. Golly! Frank seems a bit ambivalent about the quality of Executive Branch leadership.

:rofl:

[Mr_Jefferson_24]

15. I agree, we gotta get him to stop mincing words and say what's on his mind.

[Two Americas]

7. yes

It means that predators stole it all.

Why would we give them more?

[sandnsea]

8. It's better than homelessness and joblessness n/t

[TahitiNut]

11. Do you REALLY think handing over the extortion will stop the extortion?

Quite frankly, I've heard of protection rackets run by the Mafia that had more honor and integrity.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

17. Well, they have the IRS to act as muscle rather than these guys.

[sandnsea]

21. I really think when the Mafia is holding a gun

to your children's head, you give them the damn money and figure out a better solution later. Most of what people are bitching about has either already been passed (mortgage help) or has repeatedly been said to be part of the bill (equity and oversight). Most people around here don't care enough to look at the actual bill, or cared enough to know about the HOPE Mortgage assistance that has existed for a year - they just care when it's time to bitch about how bad politicians are.

[Two Americas]

19. time for a refresher

Defenders of and apologists for the free-market ideology, the same Reganomics trickle down theories which have been so thorouhghly discredited now and which are themselves the cause of this crisis, are using the same propaganda tactics over and over again.

Let's review them -

The Sales Pitch

Dense, impenetrable thickets of verbiage are thrown up that sound so esoteric and academic and technical, that everyone wanders away convinced that this is just all over their head and they will never understand economics. For any one who has been to one of those dog and pony shows where some broker tries to con you into investing in his "financial products," this approach will be very familiar. "Bore them to death until they give up and sign on the dotted line" seems to be the approach. Since I obviously don't know anything about this, best to trust the experts. Try not to bring up the fact that they stand to make a lot of money of they can get us to roll over for them.

Threat Level Red!!!

This was once known as "fear! fear! fear!" but it is now color coded to maximize the anxiety effect. The idea here is that if we don't give the fat cats everything they want, they will make sure we are all homeless, sleeping under a mushroom cloud, with nothing to eat but yellow cake.

The Preemptive Attack

Long before anyone has had a chance to post anything critical of the bail out, or even think about it, we have dozens of posts like this: "I am sick and tired of these nut case socialists saying "let it fall" or fantasizing about their glorious revolution! They are actually hoping for a depression to further their petty little personal agendas of revolution and communism, with blood and mayhem. All rational people should reject anyone criticizing the bailout!"

Cooler Heads Must Prevail

This is a variation of the preemptive attack. "Now some people will get all upset about this, but we need to all calm down and not go into panic mode or get too emotional about this." Of course, that pisses off everyone, so it is something of a self-fulfilling prophecy. This is a particularly destructive and malicious approach though, because it places the blame on the victim, as though it is people's reactions to perpetrations that are the problem, not the perpetration itself. "If we all can just accept being robbed without getting upset, then it won't really be a crime" seems to be the "logic" there. "could you please stop bleeding and moaning after I stab you? That is only making things worse, and it implies that I have done something wrong, which is not fair to me."

The Dreaded Loyalty Test

"Our revered and beloved Democratic party leaders have, in their great wisdom, have caved in and rolled over and are acting like demoralized cowards, crawling and cringing to the right wingers. We must do the same, in order to be loyal and to support them. What, do you want the Republicans to win?" Every time a Democratic politician gives in to the right wing, or even says any little thing that is moderate, wishy washy, compromising, tentative or weak, there is a chorus of people yelling "That's it! Yes! Moderate, wishy washy, compromising, tentative and weak! We have your back! We love you! We will support you no matter what!" Of course, the politicians listen, since we do have a representative democracy, and think "huh, that must be what they want. I guess I will keep giving them more of that." Any questioning of this is met with "whaddya gonna do? Vote for McCain??"

Smear, Smear, Smear

When all else fails, personal attacks, smears and character assassination are next. You are a purist, troll, marxist, comrade, dreamer, socialist, loser, melodramatic, naive, impractical, unrealistic, fringe, far left, radical, ideologue, psycho, nut case, disloyal....

[upi402]

39. Perhaps Senator Sanders can shed some light. Please see this vid clip:

http://www.sanders.senate.gov/news/record.cfm?id=303340

[stillcool]

5. I don't know..

[spag68]

12. bailout

My view is that it is created in this sense, They stole all the money and now if we don't help out the bank system will fail. My view is also that they are on the list of thieves and traitors who should be perp walked to gitmo. Far down the list, but on it none the less. Think about it let all the present inmates there go and fill the cells with little georgie and his crony's. IN the old navy the punishment included rations of bread and water referred to as piss and punk. After a while pull the navy out and let the cubans run the place. I hope no one here thinks badly of me for these evil thoughts.

[bridgit]

13. I think Paulson & Bernanke are the spear point of what is the laziest form of capitalism...

So much money around and what do they council? Put it all into mortgages and dicey instruments based upon the faulty assumption the real estate always goes up in an America where the cost of living does as well but wages never do and jobs are shipped oversees and the corporate tax base is eliminated off-shore...what lunacy that?

It's not smart at all to offer no new products (new financial products are not 'products' they're schemes and find-the-lady con-games), invest in no new technologies, generate no new jobs, and still think you can put 200mil$'s into something/anything mortgage driven and predatory based, drink $1,200/bottle Sonoma Valley wine all day, golf, fly off to Cortina Italy for lunch, lay off 10's of thousands of people on the way over, come back in a month and still think you can pull 200&50mil$'s out that's just nutty stupid. I don't think that's any part of reality. You *have* to be an American to be so naive.

Paulson & Bernanke are the poster boys for clueless, brain-dead capitalism imo

[Mr_Jefferson_24]

24. Kick for a larger sample.

[peacebird]

25. Obama is backing bailout, why? I trust him and think he is extremely smart. He wouldn't back it

unless he thought it was needed.

Has he explained anywhere WHY he thinks it is necessary? It can't just be because Bush, Paulson & Bernanke say we need it. He's too smart for that.

:shrug:

anyone know? Has Obama stated WHY we need it?

[Mr_Jefferson_24]

26. I have not heard him speak in any detail on the bailout...

...but I would venture to guess he doesn't want to do or say anything that the McCain camp could seize on to paint him as an obstructionist who wants to just stand by and do nothing while our economy collapses.

[Mr_Jefferson_24]

33. Kick for a larger sample.

[Mr_Jefferson_24]

34. Kick for a larger sample.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

35. Can't Wait Till January, And No I Don't Believe It's Manufactured Because Facts Outweigh Ignorant

opinion.

Those who think it's manufactured are offering nothing more than the latter.

[Mr_Jefferson_24]

36. Well, I don't guess I could possibly hope to counter such a...

...thoroughly well researched and powerfully presented dissertation as that. OK, you turned me -- GO BAILOUT!!!!

"The owners of this country know the truth...it's called the American Dream...

...and you have to be ASLEEP to believe in it."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UNPsY7CcMeE

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

37. Tell Your Last Line To Obama.

Pretty sure he's living the American dream.

[Mr_Jefferson_24]

38. I see, the American Dream is alive and well...

...and anybody who doubts that need only look at Obama?

Are you really out there?

[Mr_Jefferson_24]

40. Kick for a larger sample.

[Mr_Jefferson_24]

41. Kick for a larger sample.

[Mr_Jefferson_24]

42. Kick for a larger sample.

[Mr_Jefferson_24]

43. Kick for a larger sample.

[Mr_Jefferson_24]

44. Kick for a larger sample.

[VeggieTart]

45. I had to really think about this.

But if the Dems delay passage of a bailout bill until the next president is in office, that's playing politics at the expense of the citizens. I'd like to think the Dems are only slightly less contemptuous of the Main Streeters than the Republicans are. I don't mind them delaying two days for the religious holidays but delaying four months for a new president is inexcusable.

When it comes to Paulson and Bernanke, I'm not sure the crisis is entirely manufactured, but I wouldn't be a bit surprised if they were finding a way to make it seem worse so the Wall Streeters could get fat pots of cash. So, yeah, it's a scam of sorts. But that 700+ point drop in the NYSE is no scam.

[Mr_Jefferson_24]

46. Kick for a larger sample.

[Mr_Jefferson_24]

47. Kick for a larger sample.

[Mr_Jefferson_24]

48. Kick for a larger sample.