We've once again been stampeded over a cliff

[MadHound]

As with the Patriot Act and the Iraq War, this administration has used Fear, pumped up, hyperfear to stampede Congress and the country right on over the cliff like a herd of mindless cattle.

It looks like the bailout plan is going to be approved by Congress, and we'll start doling out money to Wall St., not Main St. sometime next week. Yes, yes, the markets will soar, there will be much self congratulation, but enormity of this mistake will not be discussed.

This bail out is going to require us to issue, at least initially, 250 billion dollars worth of US Treasury Bonds, hoping somebody will buy them up so that we can afford this bailout. The trouble is, our bonds are in serious danger of being downgraded. Already there were some commercial houses downgrading US Treasury Bonds before this hyper fear event started, anymore debt and we'll see them officially downgraded. When this happens, we're screwed. We won't have the money to fund any government services. Our government, country and economy will collapse, further and faster than any supposed "Second Great Depression" whose specter was used to stampede us over the cliff. This is an economic reality.

Another economic reality is that this injection of cash and liquidity is going to devalue the dollar, driving up inflation. We can look forward to crippling, perhaps even hyper inflation. The gift that keeps on giving.

All this bailout is going to do is give the US three to six months. It will allow Bush to get out of office clean, and put off the inevitable until after the election. You have that amount of time to prepare for the upcoming perfect economic storm. I suggest that you use it wisely. Buckle up, this is going to be an unusually bumpy ride, with a landing so hard at the end that some of us won't survive.

[leftofcool]

1. Yep, we just bought a trillion dollars in bad paper

Thank you Congress, thank you Dems and most of all, thank you GWB. My grand daughters are so going to appreciate this.

[ikojo]

2. This will force the government to eliminate many social

programs in order to pay for the bailout. It may also force the new president to raise taxes but not on the wealthy of course!

WOW! When poor people want government help they have to prove they are "worthy" of the help by basically putting their whole lives on display for some bureaucrat at the state welfare offices. The rich only need to CRY poor mouth and they get billions.

[malaise]

4. Bingo

The International Monetary Fund is now in charge - economic terrorism.

[High Plains]

30. Why don't we eliminate about 90% of the Pentagon budget instead?

Talk about a waste of money...

[KakistocracyHater]

41. Exactly!

:dem:

[riverdeep]

3. Five percent of our GDP spent in one week.

With nothing but promises of relief for the middle class 'at some later date'. Reckless, stupid, suicidal. All these words and more come to mind.

Forget about Obama being able to enact any of the plans he was thinking about if he gets in, which he won't if McCain votes no. You'll be lucky to find a street that's not comprised mostly of potholes.

edited: for spelling

[Zynx]

5. The credit downgrade threat had very little to do with our short term

deficit situation. It had to do with long term structural issues in the budget. Furthermore, allowing the banking system to seize up and falter without intervention will cause enormous economic distress which will cause tax revenues to plummet, unemployment benefits to spike, and necessitate a larger government action down the road to recover the economy. All of this I assure you will cost more than this bailout.

[riverdeep]

10. If you can assure us of the certainty of your scenario,

then you're doing better than every finance expert I've seen lately, who really can't tell you with certainty just what will happen.

[screembloodymurder]

17. Well one thing we do know. No private equity was willing to come to the rescue.

Now, that ought to tell you something. The shit their selling is worthless. Explain to me how investing in worthless shit makes sense and I'll agree to the bailout.

[galileoreloaded]

13. Somebody must have promised the "believers" a free t-shirt.....n/t

[MadHound]

26. There hasn't been a credit downgrade, yet

No, it had nothing to do with this current crisis. What I'm saying is that it will be the major factor in bringing down our economy, government and country within six months. We're simply taking on too much debt and taking on this much more is going to downgrade our bond rating(some commercial traders already have). This will mean that nobody wants to buy our debt, and we will have no money to fund our government or our country.

Also, this injection of liquidity into the market will devalue the dollar, leading to high, perhaps hyper inflation. This will also be devastating to our economy and our country. Both of these consequences are real and will come to pass. I know many economists, including my wife, and to the last one they state that this bailout cure is going to, in the long term, be worse than if we had just let the whole thing collapse. Under the no bailout scenario, we would have been facing, worst case scenario, a second Great Depression. We can recover from a depression. However if we can't get anybody to buy our debt(treasury bonds) and have high/hyper inflation on top of it, we're talking about an extinction level economic event. Do you now understand the gravity of this situation, what we've just opened ourselves up for? In a depression, the scoundrels are punished, the weak are culled from the corporate herd, regulations are put into place and money is spent on the real economy. There is a recovery. However with no government funding, we can't do any spending, and our government will collapse. Meanwhile, the bankers will skate off without punishment or consequence.

We've been stampeded over a cliff. In the short term our economy will perk up. In the long term, it's going to be a long drop and a hard landing that many of us won't survive.

[Zhade]

40. You're not QUALIFIED to assure us of anything.

NT!

[whistle]

6. The American lemmings

<snip>
HOW DO YOU STUPID AMERICAN LEMMINGS FEEL TODAY??? 17-Sep-08 10:44 am CONGRATS ON YOUR FAWKING AIG BAILOUT!!! LOSER LEMMINGS.

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA


http://messages.finance.yahoo.com/ETFs_(A_to_Z)/ETFs_P/threadview?m=tm&bn=41611&tid=566697&mid=566697&tof=19&frt=2

[dailykoff]

7. And all the Congressional Dems had to do was go home.

But no, they stuck around just so they could whore another trillion out of the Treasury into the personal accounts of a bunch of filthy rich lying thieves.

:mad:

[bean fidhleir]

8. Of course we have (and it's away to the Greatest with this thread)

This is practically a textbook case. For all I know it will BE a textbook case some day.

And all we have to do is look around DU and see the Usual Suspects helping whip up the stampede and attacking anyone who tries to take a calm look at what's really going on. I can never quite decide whether they're doing it because they're paid shills, unpaid shills, or just rather gullible, stupid, and/or authoritarian personally.

[tomp]

20. it's not the calm look they're against.

it's anyone disagreeing with dem leadership strategy.

[rontun]

9. Whether you're for or against this bailout

help me send a message to my Congressional delegation. They read my local Democratic Party website daily, as do most of the state party leaders. I've put a poll on the bottom of the site's front page this morning. Go vote! Let them know!

Thanks!

[Two Americas]

12. I hate push polls

The poll question: "Are you happy with the changes in the bailout bill?"

A "yes" vote means that we are happy with the presumed "changes" that the Democrats supposedly get credit for?

A "no" vote would then mean what? That we are happy with the bill as proposed by Paulsen?

You say "whether you're for or against this bailout, help me send a message..." then "I've put a poll..." then "let them know!" you say. But "for the bailout" and "against the bailout" are not options in your poll.

What is the message that you are trying to send to to your Congressional delegation for which you are asking for our help?

[barbtries]

14. do we even KNOW

what's in the bill? cause i don't, and i've looked.

[Two Americas]

15. never mind that

It must be passed whatever it is. And then we must all agree that it was a good thing that it did.

[barbtries]

16. for instance, this on yahoo this morning:

Added Sen. John Kerry, D-Mass.: "I think we have accountability."

you THINK we have accountability?! what the fuck? think?! you better fucking know!

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/financial_meltdown

[rontun]

32. You've asked a good question.

And I understand why you think it's an effort at push polling, but it isn't. Actually, I'd posted on Friday the question "Do you support the proposed $700 billion bailout of Wall Street?" Three options were offered. Yes, No, Undecided. The latest results are Yes - 12, Undecided - 24, No - 215. You can still respond to that poll by going to the bottom of the linked page.

It was subsequently suggested to me to ask whether people are happy with the changes in the bailout bill. I do believe the leadership is trying to determine whether or not they've satisfied peoples' concerns. I can see that I should have explained this in detail and offered people the option of responding to both polls. So please do. I'm not pushing for a particular result (I'll concede that I'm opposed to the legislation), but I am as curious as the leadership to know whether or not people have had their concerns alleviated.

[Two Americas]

46. thanks

Thought it might have been unintentional.

[barbtries]

11. and utterly powerless

to stop it. gawd knows i tried.

[dhpgetsit]

18. And yet again, Republicans win the game of political theater.

By holding out and drawing the eyes of the nation to their objections (which most Democrats including myself happen to share) they made sure to deflect the majority of the political fallout onto Democrats.

[pokerfan]

19. A cartoon for you if you haven't already seen it

[workinclasszero]

21. Yes the bailout is designed for Bush and the republicans

to stabilize things for a few months. Then when the inevitable crash occurs, President Obama and the democratic Congress will receive ALL THE BLAME!

In the meantime the welfare Queens of Wall Street will be spending our taxpayer money like drunken sailors!

This bailout is a FOOLS GAME for the democrats! They will regret forever that they signed on to it!

[sendero]

22. It's astounding..

... how lame, neutered and punked the Dem congress is. It's unbelievable.

[texan4obama]

23. Bailout was necessary - here's why

Lehman Brother – bankruptcy
Washington Mutual (WaMu) - bankruptcy
Bear Stearns - Government Bailout
Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac – Government Bailout
American International Group (AIG) – Government Bailout
Merrill Lynch – Bank of America Buyout
Money Market Funds - Government stepped in to stabilize to prevent run on banks

If the government does not step in and stabilize the financial market, many working class people will be hit hard by a collapse of the financial market. Many of the people on DU complaining about this bailout plan, will be fighting to keep their jobs and homes, if the government does nothing.

Here's why:
The key underlying issue in this "Financial Crisis" is that lending has shutdown, or loans can only be had at ridiculously high interest rates. There is a domino affect on the economy associated with this "Crisis" that impacts the average Joe Citizen:

Credit concerns means higher interest rates to banks and lending institutions, thus banks/lenders pay more for the money they borrow and lend to Companies and Joe Citizen.

Banks charge Companies a higher interest rate, which means:
* Companies borrow less and end up in a cash flow crunch (shortage of money to cover day-to-day expenses, less investment for future growth, squeeze on profits due to higher cost of borrowed money)
* In a tight market, Companies cut cost, which usually means delayed purchases and layoffs

Banks charge Joe Citizen a higher interest rate, which means:
* Harder to get a home loan, and interest rates make Home and Car loans less affordable for Joe Citizen
* Increased credit card rates put Joe Citizen in a bind to make anything other than interest payments on credit card debt
* Joe Citizen stops buying stuff (Cars, Homes, new widgets on credit cards), causing the profits of Companies that sell cars, homes and widgets to drop
* Joe Citizen gets laid off because profits of Companies that sell cars, homes and widgets have dropped
* Joe Citizen dips into 401K retirement savings (which has dropped significantly in value) to pay his bills while looking for another job
* Joe Citizen loses his home causing a continued downward spiral of the housing market and economy

I don't like the idea of bailing out the people that have caused this mess, but I believe an infusion of cash to the financial market (with oversight on how the money is spent) is needed to avoid a worst calamity.

[Kansas Wyatt]

25. Well isn't it nice that CORPORATE AMERICA can at least file for bankruptcy protection.

Joe Citizen better just get off his lazy ass, pull himself up by the bootstraps, and work three full time jobs, because he's going to pay for his debt.

Piss on them, time for the poor to start eating the rich, because this is nothing but extortion against hard strapped working people across this nation. Yes, it is time to cut Corporate America and the Wealthy Elite down to size, because their parasitic expansion now has the American People on life support.

[dailykoff]

27. Right, trickle down disaster for Ma and Pa if we don't drop trou for AIG.

FAIL.

[MadHound]

28. It was the worst choice out of this situation

With this bailout, we're going to be taking on another buttload of debt. On top of the fact that we're already overextended. This means that here in three to six months, the rating on our US Treasury bonds will be downgraded(some commercial houses have already done this, before the bailout) When these bonds are downgraded, we will not be able to find anybody to buy our debt. We will have no money left in our treasury to spend on anything the government does, all the taxpayer revenue will have to go towards servicing our debt. No money for infrastructure, no money for defense, no money to keep the lights on in the White House. Nothing, zip, zilch, zero, nada. This is an extinction level economic event, one that our government, economy or country will survive.

Top this off with the fact that such an injection of cash as they are now proposing will raise devalue the dollar and hike inflation. We'll be looking at very high, possibly hyper inflation. Can you say depression era Germany?

If we hadn't done this bailout, the worst that could have happened is a depression. We've survived depressions before, and they have the benefit of punishing the scoundrels, culling the weak from the corporate herd, installing regulations and money is spent on the real economy. It's not fun, but it's survivable. However with this coming crash, we simply won't survive, at least not in our current form. We're going to be along for the ride when this modern day Rome collapses. Buckle up, it's going to be a rough ride and a hard landing, one that many of us won't survive.

[jpgray]

33. I've seen you say this a lot--what is your evidence that Treasury Bonds are going to be downgraded?

Not a challenge, I'd just like to see it.

[MadHound]

36. Well, foreign investors have been nervous for months

<http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Global_Economy/JA17Dj02.html> Note the date, note that it is Moody's saying this eight months ago.

Now, some commercial houses are already downgrading, just on the proposal of the bailout. <http://financialtrader.com/Bond_Investor.html>

Then there is the fact that this debt load we're taking on will jump our debt up to 72% of our GDP. Not a real good ratio there.

Throw in the fact that this bailout isn't going to correct the basics of what is wrong with our economy, plus the fact that this debt will further devalue the dollar and cause inflation, and I would say that within three to six months our bond rating will tank. The economists that I've talked with are saying the same thing.

[RainDog]

38. not all lending has shut down

however, the housing bubble has popped.

this bailout does nothing to stop people from losing their homes if they are already overleveraged. it does nothing to stop the decline in over-inflated housing markets in part of the nation that have become real estate speculator havens - and whose practices have driven up the price of homes so that Joe Citizen cannot afford to live where she/he works.

bail out or not, the economy is facing shitty prospects because of deregulation.

[Hannah Bell]

45. hey, if all the banks are bankrupt, where's the money coming from? is it in our mattresses?

[TexasObserver]

24. Lucy, a football, and Charlie Brown. How many times?!

Agreed.

This is a bandaid. A big one, but a bandaid. Or in hurricane terms, it's a five foot wall of sand bags that will work fine until the 20 foot storm surge arrives.

[Better Today]

29. And of course they caved on relief via judges for foreclosing homeowners. Disgraceful!

[High Plains]

31. The US needs a second major political party.

The left and right wings of the Single Unified Capitalist War Party aren't doing it for me.

[dailykoff]

34. And once again the perception managers are busy spreading lies.

And once again, we're buying them.

[judasdisney]

35. Date rape tactics -- now! now! now! or else!

[earth mom]

37. Yep, screwed again with NO end in sight.

:grr:

[Zhade]

39. Kicking against the proudly misinformed enablers of economic terrorism on this board.

NT!

[Pastiche423]

42. I'm doing the same

:kick:

:grr:

[ObamaMagnets]

43. The Lemmings we've become

Perhaps it isn't their fault, but our own ridiculous fear of what might be better.

[scarletwoman]

44. Kick! (nt)

[Two Americas]

47. Brother, Can You Spare a Dime

They used to tell me I was building a dream
And so I followed the mob.
When there was earth to plow or guns to bear,
I was always there, right on the job.
They used to tell me I was building a dream
With peace and glory ahead --
Why should I be standing in line, just waiting for bread?

Once I built a railroad, I made it run,
Made it race against time.
Once I built a railroad, now it's done --
Brother, can you spare a dime?

Once I built a tower, up to the sun,
brick and rivet and lime.
Once I built a tower, now it's done --
Brother, can you spare a dime?

Once in khaki suits, gee, we looked swell
Full of that Yankee Doodle-de-dum.
Half a million boots went slogging through hell,
And I was the kid with the drum.

Say, don't you remember they called me Al,
It was Al all the time.
Why don't you remember, I'm your pal --
Say, buddy, can you spare a dime?

[Hubert Flottz]

48. They've even stampeded the Mavericks.

Now the pubs running for congress are starting to get huge campaign checks from the big banks. Funny how that shit works.

[OakCliffDem]

49. Modus Operandi of Republican crowd psychology