So a small, local farm supply store has closed

[Orrex]

It was a family business, though I have no idea how long it had been in existence (it predated my arrival in this town five years ago, probably by at least a decade or two).

Near as I can figure, the killing blow was the opening of a Tractor Supply Company on the other end of town, which, by virtue of its buying power, was able to offer much more for much less. So the end was inevitable.

I feel kind of bad about it, even though I seldom shopped there, because don't own a farm and have little direct use for a farm supply store. But here's what puzzles me:

For various reasons I have had to buy spooled wire over the years, and I know from experience that farm supply stores are a good source. And this particular store did indeed sell what I was looking for, but for at least 125% of what TSC charges: a 1/4-mile of 17gg wire for $14.99 vs. $11.99. After realizing this, I started to check other products, and the price differential was about the same across the board. In some cases much worse (close to 175%) and in some cases a little better (110%), but in no case did the local store undersell TSC.

I sympathize with the demands of a local shop like this, but what, honestly, can be done about it? How can a mom-and-pop store expect to stay open when it can only offer a fraction of the inventory, and at vastly higher prices?

This post isn't sympathy for the Wal*Mart-esque devil, because I know all about the brutal business practices undertaken by such companies. But, really, what expectation can a local store have, when anyone with eyes can see that the better price is sitting on the shelf across town?

Should the individual buyer volunteer to pay 125%? That's just shifting the responsibility from the powerless shopowner to the powerless consumer.


What's the answer? Can the trend be stopped?

[barbtries]

1. i think the trend is in full flower

and we may go back to a slash and burn economy before it's over.

edited to add: i hope it was a good time for the people to retire anyway, and that they're well taken care of.

[Romulox]

2. When Tractor Supply and its Chinese suppliers overextend themselves, they'll get a gov't bailout.

On a day like today, talking about the realities of the allegedly "free" market is in bad taste, isn't it?

[Lyric]

3. Sure, things seem cheaper at big stores.

At least they do when the big stores are still competing with local businesses. When they finally manage to run the locals out of business, prices go back up, and there is no longer any other option than to pay it--the competition is dead, and they can charge whatever they want.

Don't be fooled by the surface price. There are many, many complex reasons why big stores are more expensive than small local stores when the "big picture" is taken into consideration. You might pay less at the checkout, but you're paying more in taxes to compensate for the cut-throat business practices, shitty employee benefits, and heavy environmental impact that big stores bring along as part of the package.

[Orrex]

14. In practice, though, there's no way to quantify that

When you've got $20 and you need to buy whatever product it is you need to buy, it's hard to convince yourself that you should in fact pay $30 for it.

Until some way exists to make the "real" cost visible to the consumer, I can't imagine any way to end the Wal*Mart cycle. And even then, the individual consumer--even hundreds of thousands of individual consumers--is close to powerless to do anything about it.

Please forgive my pessimism. It's been that kind of week, nationally...

[madrchsod]

4. i may have helped make that us made wire you used to buy...

but the chinese under priced us and our wire mill closed down. i do not think there is any spooled or wire cloth products made in the usa.

[InkAddict]

9. My grandpa was a wire weaver.

who actually threw a shuttle and then operated the automated type for a short time before he retired. When the MA mill he worked at shut down, he left the family (confirmed by Census records) and found work in the MidWest. That shop closed down just after(?) he retired. A leaner, meaner company reopened some years later, headed up by a son, grandson, or nephew; alas, it too could not compete w/Chinese.

[madrchsod]

19. dam he was old school

i worked on a barb wire machine that it`s frame was cast the year that the mill was founded -1876.

[InkAddict]

21. His company's competitor fared a little better

but became foreign owned. Just thought you might be interested in some industrial history.

http://www.wstyler.com/History.html

[madrchsod]

23. thanks

i worked here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northwestern_Steel_and_Wire

[Strelnikov_]

10. So this basic industrial component can no longer made here

Great.

When the container ships stop, it won't be a lack of I-pods, cell phones, LCD TV's and other consumer products that will collapse us.

It will be the lack of some critical component, like wire, or ascorbic acid, that will.

[lakeguy]

5. it's called externalizing costs...

don't know much about TSC but walmart can sell their cheap shit because they get products from countries that pollute the earth at will. 40% of their employees are on gov. subsidized health care. they externalize (or hide is probably a better word) all these costs that we end up paying for anyway.

it's a different business model but the costs are the same. unfortunately all most people tend to think about are the price tags.

[Davis_X_Machina]

6. ACE hardware...

...is a co-operative, as is True Value. This is one way for the little guy to survive. Land O' Lakes, Sunkist and Ocean Spray do a similar thing for farmers.

One way for the little guy to survive is to band together. Much bigger in Japan than here, esp. in retail.

[Strelnikov_]

11. Excellent point n/t

[Orrex]

15. A great suggestion!

Alas, none of those stores exists within 30 miles of me, so I'd be driving pretty far to get the same thing that I can otherwise get in ten minutes.

But it's still a fine suggestion, where such places can be found.

[lonestarnot]

16. And therein lies the answer to this problem, co-operatives!

[Auggie]

7. It's ironic that before TSC opened everyone paid higher prices without complaint.

But I don't know what can done except to pay more and support the Mom and Pops.

Our local grocer is being hammered by huge supermarkets that have moved in. They have better produce, better meats, more gourmet offerings and a better deli service (and they'll stock anything you ask them to), but they're getting killed over price. Quality and service means less to more people when they have to pay more for it.

Is it really a trend though, or just the natural progression of business? Look at how many hand-crafted automobiles manufacturers went out of business when Henry Ford learned to mass produce the Model T. The Model T was not a good car. But it was cheap.

[HamdenRice]

8. I often patonize small local business rather than Home Depot

I am trying slowly to renovate/repair a 100 year old house in Queens, a 5 year ongoing project. When I first started, I often went to Home Depot. Now I'm more likely to use small local mom and pops for several reasons.

First of all, for lumber, the local lumber yard simply has superior more varied product geared to the area. For example, most houses have "colonial casings" for interior window and door finish. The local lumber yard carries that but HD carries very standards stuff geared for newer cookie cutter suburbs. There's no comparison in terms of variety and quality.

Second, for plumbing and hardware, it's very useful to be able to get advice and ask questions. I got completely fed up with chasing down someone at HD who either doesn't know anything, doesn't "work in this department," or if they do and know are snarky about advice.

Last, the locals are within walking distance. HD is a car ride, parking headache and walk across a big lot.

The fuel issue is going to swing in favor of the locals in the long run.

[Orrex]

18. Fuel's definitely a factor

But I fear that, by the time it becomes the deciding factor, too many mom-and-pop places will have closed, and the only remaining option will be the Big Box store way over there.

[SmokingJacket]

12. It's an impossible situation, and only customer service and

loyalty and intertia are keeping the mom and pops open, for now. I work at an independent retail shop, and have had customers come in and ASK me why they should shop at my store instead of at the chains, who give discounts and have a larger selection.

There really isn't a good answer. Just: if you don't, we'll close, and then our quirky and interesting shop will not be an option when the big boxes decide this town isn't quite good enough and take off.

[Stinky The Clown]

13. I share your concern

I try to do my part by spending my money with the local guy, even if there's a modest cost to doing it. Home Depot vs Ace Hardware. Our Ace guy's family has been in the neighborhood, literally, for generations, and, literally, in the hardware business. Their original store is pre Civil War and is still there, in our little downtown. It has survived flood and fire and is now an antiques mall. The hardware business has been in two locations in the 30 years I've been here - the first, rented, the second, they own.

They sell just a tad higher than Home Depot, but they also employed both my kids at more than minimum wage - back when they were in high school. They still employ neighborhood kids. And the owner is still there pretty much every day. And they carry bits and pieces that were installed in the local housing stock. Try to get an obscure faucet stem at Home Depot. The Ace guy has them all.

Ditto for my gas. The Sunoco station is owned locally. He's always competitive - a few pennies higher/a few pennies lower. But he's local.

And so on.

This is probably not a long term solution. That will take some structural changes that we will likely not live long enough to see.

[GreenPartyVoter]

17. WE've seen problems liek that too. There are no hardware stores or drugstores or larger markets

in our village. You have to drive a minimum of 20 minutes to get to some. I bought a frozen pizza the other day at our local mom n pop grocery and it was $8! Same thing at a big store would have gone for $3 something.

I would love to see decentralization take place, but that means we have to kill the culture of driving and really plan our towns differently. And, yes, it might require some sort of gov't initiative.

[tsuki]

20. Are you buying the same thing? I sell a faucet, a national brand,

like the box stores. I sell the same style faucet, same look, same box, series number--the exact faucet for $20.00 more than the box stores. You cannot tell the difference until you get it home. My faucet has metal handles, a metal pop-up assembly and a warranty where, if you install it and it leaks, I'll give you the replacement parts--you don't have to un-install it and take it back to the big box, or phone the company for free parts.

But the "Look At What I Got This For" box shopper, I am a crook charging too much for product.

BTW, I do a booming biz in metal pop-ups.

[Orrex]

22. What distinguishes the box for the cheap faucet from the box of the one you sell?

Or if not the box, then in the accompanying documentation? Surely something must, right?

If not, that strikes me as pretty clearly unethical on the part of the manufacturer.

[tsuki]

24. Nothing. Absolutely nothing. Well, that may not be true. The scan

numbers may be different. I never check those. But it is common practice among American companies to have two different lines, one for showrooms and the other for the box stores.

We are a buyer beware culture, and like the Libertarians like to tell people, it is up to the consumer to know the difference.

I no longer sell or show the faucet, but cost is 55%. The company does not encourage small vendors. A box store, depending on the amount of the order, has a 50 and (2)10s (cost of 40.5%) or a 50 and (3)10s (cost of 36.45%). And given the fact that I cannot buy the product sold at the big box stores, my base cost is higher.

There are a lot of things that contribute to the cost differences.

[Orrex]

26. Okay, I agree that that's pretty damned shitty

But I blame the manufacturer at least as much as I blame the retailer. I mean, it's not as though the retailer is designing the box, in most cases.

I could see having very similar packaging, but for the two different products to be sold in identical packaging must come really close to being outright fraud. I mean, if I call the Acme Faucet Company and say "I'd like to order a gross of your WhizBang Faucet #4," how are they going to know which one I'm talking about?

[1]

28. no, that's not what he said. you just fell for some "mom and pop" marketing...

dude said "the faucets I sell have metal this and metal that."

what he didn't say was the others do too, that was merely implied and you bought it hook, line and sinker...

what he did say was that he offered a better warranty. over and above the faucet manufacturer. that is noble. i do like that.


this is the old "big box" urban myth of different products for different stores.

one production run of millions of units with cheap plastic parts (and a shitty warranty) for the box stores, and a smaller production run of a few thousand units with metal parts (and a great warranty) for the little guy.

bullshit.

and if you knew anything about the manufacturing process you would see through that in a heartbeat.


but, i do like his personal warranty. and if that is important enough to you then do spend the extra money for that.

[Orrex]

30. I'm sensing hostility there, fireball

Could you turn it down a smidge?


Nice catch on what I inferred in error, though. No need to be a hard-ass about it.

[1]

37. yo, orrex. hostility? no way. my dad ran a "mom and pop". its how i got through college...

if you offer service and knowledge and help that is superior to the competition and allows your business to succeed, then that is the benefit of doing business with a "mom and pop" for the higher price that you might pay over what the big box guys can do.

i acknowledged this faucet guy's over-and-above warranty that is part of that business process.

that's not hostile. that's how small business succeeds.

i did question the "implied" differences marketing strategy.

i disagree with deception.

i did question the bullshit idea that manufacturers assemble different products for different stores.

that's just bullshit. they don't.


you can help me out here. how do i "turn it down a smidge" and not appear a hard ass about presenting facts? how do i not appear to be hostile when questioning a poster who will not reply? you saw something in my reply. tell me what that was and i will work on correcting it.

thanks.

[Orrex]

38. Well, maybe it's a matter of text-based tone

and if you knew anything about the manufacturing process you would see through that in a heartbeat.

That came across as a sort of "If you weren't so damned ignorant, you'd see it for yourself." Ouch!

Especially since (I believe) it was in a reply to my post, rather than the unresponsive DU'er...


I mean, I know more about certain subjects than other people, but when discussing those subjects I go out of my way not to make the other person feel stupid.

Also, "presenting facts" is kind of a dangerous catch-all by which all manner of hostility can be communicated under the guise of "telling it like it is." A little diplomacy allows facts to be presented without sounding preachy or authoritarian. Or maybe it's late and I'm being over-sensitive. I don't know.



But while we're on the subject, if mom-and-pop stores really do engage in that sort of equivocating mindgame, then I say fuck 'em, and they deserve what they get (at least, the stores that subscribe to such practices).

At least with Wal*Mart you know you're getting screwed.

[1]

39. ok. i see your points...

but i never said "if you weren't so damned ignorant."

that is a thought originating in the mind of someone reading the post. not something i actually said.

i was commenting on something i do know. something that is outlandish in what i know. i said "if you knew anything" when i should have said "if you knew the process" or "if you knew the methodology" or "if you knew the costs associated with." and then launch into a paragraph or twenty about how stupid that argument would be for a manufacturer. and maybe that wouldn't have been enough. you see right? but i do understand your point.



and mom and pops, in my experience, for the most part do not engage in deceptive bullshit. otherwise they would be out of business. i asked a question about the faucet from this one guy because it didn't smell right. and he never replied. but again, he was willing to go above and beyond a factory warranty in his business which is a perfectly acceptable reason to do business with him. i don't know how many ways i can say that.

i suppose we could all talk to each other as if we were five years old. or we could just state our opinions and be called out on them. i don't think there is an answer.

as long as you, orrex, are still my friend at the end of tonight. wait. you don't sell faucets under a sockpuppet, do you?

[Orrex]

41. NO worries

but i never said "if you weren't so damned ignorant."

I agree that you definitely didn't say that, but I was saying that that's how your statement came across.

i was commenting on something i do know. something that is outlandish in what i know. i said "if you knew anything" when i should have said "if you knew the process" or "if you knew the methodology" or "if you knew the costs associated with." and then launch into a paragraph or twenty about how stupid that argument would be for a manufacturer. and maybe that wouldn't have been enough. you see right? but i do understand your point.

Well, the next time you make a statement like that, leave out "if you knew anything about" altogether. Just say "manufacturing is like that" or something, and you'll avoid the entire hornet's nest. Heck, you won't even need a whole paragraph, then!

as long as you, orrex, are still my friend at the end of tonight. wait. you don't sell faucets under a sockpuppet, do you?

I don't have anything to do with sock puppets whatsoever! :)

:pals:

[1]

25. huh? so you're telling me a faucet manufacturer builds two versions of the same model?

you say "My faucet has metal handles, a metal pop-up assembly and a warranty where, if you install it and it leaks, I'll give you the replacement parts..."

does the faucet sold by the box stores have metal handles and a metal pop-up assembly too? i understand you might personally offer a better warranty and that might be worth the extra cost.

help me out here to understand your post.

thanks.

[rebel with a cause]

27. the box store product probably has plastic components.

instead of metal. This makes them a cheaper product and less dependable. I have seen this in products, where what is represented on the box is not what is really truthful about the item inside. It is really irritating at times.

This could be all about where I am from but as for me, I grew up with small business men who bought a gross of a product for a small amount and sold the items individually for big bucks. They lived in the fancy part of town and looked down on most of us. Customers were treated according to their social standing. My father was treated well because he was a Minister and well known. My mother, a home maker who was not well known and us (her children) were not treated as well unless my father was with us and they knew we "belonged" to him. (my father came from a more upper class family than my mother) I hated going to these small stores growing up and was mostly treated like a thief waiting for my chance to steal some ten cent item. I never stole anything in my life, and felt insulted by their attitude. When the bigger stores came in, I was relieved I never had to be dependent on those small stores again.

On the other hand, I loved our neighborhood grocery store and when I lived in NYC it was the same way. I loved the small grocery/fish/meat markets in the neighborhood, but hated the other small stores because of the rudeness of the personnel. For me, if I had been treated humanely and fairly in the small stores, I would have stayed shopping there because I don't like going to strange places that much. But I prefer just being treated as one in the crowd as one of the undesired.

Sorry, but this was how it was in the 50s and 60s in my home town. And in the 70s in NYC.

[1]

29. "probably". nice. scroll up a post or two... n/t.

[rebel with a cause]

33. okay, I was just supposing that was what he meant.

that is why I said probably. If I had known for sure there would have been no probably about it. :shrug:

[tsuki]

40. Yes, they do, PUs are polypropylene, a thermoplastic polymer.

(PU are pop-ups, or drains.)

[ColbertWatcher]

31. When shopping remember: you get what you pay for.

I never shop at Wal-Mart. Their prices may be "lower", but the value of what the company brings to the community does not compensate for it.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

34. The cost of gasoline brings the price back up.

A local True Value Hardware just went belly up in West Houston.

In the country we have to drive 15 or 20 miles just to buy groceries or go to a dry cleaners or a florist. And if you wanted an actual city with more stores, like Target, you'd have to drive sixty or seventy miles.

The money you would save at Walmart is eaten up by the gasoline.

[ColbertWatcher]

35. "The money you would save at Walmart is eaten up by the gasoline."

Good point!

Is it time to start shopping by mail?

[WCGreen]

32. There us a really good local hardware store that is thriving because it

carried stuff the big stores don't bother with. Like buying one nut, or a washer.

But they also have guys there who know what they sell. I spend at least 1/3 of my hardware money at that store. Sometimes just to get that hardware store smell again...

[CaliforniaPeggy]

36. I patronize a local camera store...

I've bought a couple of cameras there, and yes, they do cost more than at Costco.

But...

The service is outstanding. I can go in there anytime, and get my questions answered or small things done, for no charge.

I appreciate that.

They also have adopted a dog that was due to be killed at the local shelter.

I am happy to support such a store.

It's worth it to me.

And I've told them how I feel about how they run their business, and they appreciate it.

[Barack_America]

42. Band together for bulk buys...

From the suppliers. And pass those savings on to consumers.

Or offer customer service incentives to make people willing to pay a bit extra.

That's just about all I can think of.