All those voting line-ups are mind boggling to this Canadian.

[JBoy]

I've voted in every Federal, Provincial and Municipal election here in Canada for over 25 years. I can't recall ever having to wait in a line for more than 60 seconds to vote. Literally, a minute. And that's on election day. You can vote "early" here as well, and I can only imagine that an early voting location would be a ghost town.

Here's how it works:

I go into the polling place (which is never more than about 1/2 mile from my home), find the table corresponding to my last name (they'll have a table for A-D, E-H, etc). Sometimes there might be a person already there ahead of me. 4 times out of 5 there's nobody - I walk right up. The election worker finds my name on the voter list, checks my ID, crosses my name off the list and hands me a ballot. I take the ballot behind a little cardboard screen, mark my "X" or "X's" as appropriate, then bring the ballot back, folded up. They tear off the little index strip, then I put the ballot in the box. I'm out the door about 4 minutes after I walked in.

Once the polls close, the results start coming out after about 30 minutes. Takes about 3 hours before 100% of the polls in a given riding have reported. This is all 100% paper ballots. Recounts are a no-brainer. You count the fucking ballots again.

[BlooInBloo]

1. (shrug) Republicans don't want people to vote, so they make it as difficult as possible...

It's not like that's a new thing.

[msongs]

2. gee maybe we could emulate the canadian model when ppl get sick of e fraud? nt

[Wiley50]

6. What! You want to douse the Canadian model with gasoline and set it on fire? n/t

[SammyWinstonJack]

30. ...

:evilgrin:

[Ezlivin]

31. Emulate, not immolate

Know it, learn it, live it.

[That Is Quite Enough]

32. I think it's in reference to this:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=4345674&mesg_id=4345674

[Ezlivin]

36. I hope

When I posted my retort I was well aware of that posting from FR showing those "English as a hobby" language skills.

But when there was no reference to that thread I suspected that the poster didn't know the difference between "emulate" and "immolate."

Oh, well....

[fascisthunter]

3. JBoy.... it's designed this way to keep folks from voting

it's meant to discourage folks from wanting to vote because they have to wait so damn long.... most average middlecalss or lowerclass workers do not have the time to wait. Republicans know this...

[JBoy]

5. What's the bottleneck in the process?

Is it the limited number of voting machines? Too few election workers? Too few voting locations?

[Incitatus]

7. There's not enough voting machines in areas with large numbers of Democrats

[fascisthunter]

12. by design

[Incitatus]

18. yes nt

[fascisthunter]

11. Mainly Too Few Machines....

Lot's of folks on this web site understand that the electronic voting machines should never be used for voting. We should be voting by paper ballot that is hand counted. On top of it all, the companies that own these machines are the companies counting the votes. When something goes wrong with their machines, we the people have very little oversight due to proprietery rights of that company. Those companies basically own complete rights to our vote counting process... dubious, I know.

That's why, while I feel good about this election, I am under no illusion that this election is a winner for Obama. People are basing everything on turn-out which is no gaurentee but wishful thinking.

Yup.... "We have been screwed!"

[surrealAmerican]

51. In some places, too long a ballot may also be a factor.

[Incitatus]

4. Sounds like Canada has their shit together.

Not all places are that bad here. I have never waited more than a couple minutes when I voted, but I live in an area largely populated by Republicans.

[fed_up_mother]

8. That's how I vote here in the 'burbs.

I've never waited more than five minutes, and most times there's no wait at all.

But, I'm in a republican state, and a strong republican county. The inner city - which votes democratic - waits in line for hours.

SIGH

[gaspee]

34. Never waited

Our lines move quickly and there's always plenty of poll workers and polling stations.

I'm in one of the bluest of the blue states, RI.

[malaise]

9. Same here in Jamaica

The Electoral commission send out my polling info - location, division, etc. We have the same process - checks name, etc. but after we vote, we dip our index finger in ink. We vote early in the morning so we never wait in lines. Results are known before midnight - paper ballots forever.

[csziggy]

10. A lot of the problem is that Americans think technology is the answer

And we have not insisted that the voting machines be efficient. Instead of making it easier, it seems they just add layers of complications and difficulties to the process.

At my regular polling place, voting is usually pretty fast with no lines. We paper ballots and optical scan machines. I like being able to see the ballot go through the machine since if there is a mistake, it will kick the ballot out and let the voter fix the mistake.

At early voting, they have to look the voters up in the computer, pull the proper ballot for their precinct, have all kinds of extra paperwork, then the voter can take their ballot, fill it out and run it through the scanner. It takes four or five times as long once you get to the table and give them your name as it would at the regular polling places.

But many people like the early voting - especially the newly registered voters. That way, if there are any questions, they have a chance to resolve them in time to vote on a regular ballot and not use a provisional one. Plus, it has given some communities chances to make an event out of bringing groups of people to vote.

On the first day of early voting, over a thousand students and faculty from the traditionally black university here marched from their campus to the country courthouse to vote. They were accompanied by the university marching band which continued to play while the students waited in line so it was quite a celebratory occasion. Sunday, many of the black churches organized marches or groups to go to the early voting locations, leaving from their churches. I know of at least three churches that did this and since I have not caught the local news regularly for weeks, that means there could have been more.

But at the heart of the problem is that some groups limit the voting locations and methods in order to disenfranchise voters. Until 2000 this was a mostly hidden problem, especially in the South. There would be lines in some neighborhoods, but little coverage of their existence.

[PDJane]

13. I live in downtown Toronto,

have for 40 years.......and have never had to wait more than a minute or two to vote. Ever. Yeah, our population is lower, but not, please note, in Toronto. There are at least 20 MURBS and the usual single-family dwellings in my current polling area, and I still don't wait. It took me longer to line up for coffee than it did to vote!

I don't get why anyone would want to wait in line for a rigged machine, when hand-counted paper ballots are more efficient and leave a verifiable trail.

[Cresent City Kid]

19. I'm too slow

Your post wasn't there when I asked, but I'm glad you chimed in. I expected that the size of the city wouldn't change the original statement that voting was more efficient in Canada. It's not physically impossible to have smooth elections in big cities, it's a matter of will.

Are there more places to vote, or a simpler process?

[PDJane]

20. Both, I suspect.

There were about 8 stations inside the polling place. One just is directed to the right table, votes and leaves. It's just that the polling is organized by Elections Canada, which is a separate section of the government; it reports to both the Prime Minister and to Parliament. It was organized that way after some egregiously run elections in the early part of the last century, and it works.

[Cresent City Kid]

14. I'm curious

How does it work in Canada's largest cities?

[JBoy]

16. No different in the cities.

More populated places will have a a greater number of polling locations. It's all pretty equal on a per-capita basis.

[PDJane]

17. Same way........

Toronto is home to 5,000,000 people at last count.

We vote exactly the same way, and people do not wait. It's busy, but folks just move in and out all day; there were fifteen people or so in the polling place when I went, but they just vote and move on. A minute or so to check you off the list, a minute or so to vote and plunk it in the ballot box and out.

The count is open, with watchers from every party; it just goes faster. And if you spoil a ballot, you ask for another. Polling places are wheelchair accessible, seniors homes often have a polling place in the lobby, jails have a polling place in them and inmates are escorted to vote. It's just different here.

[OHDEM]

15. How embarassing!

And we're supposed to be bringing democracy to other countries?!?!?

The right-wing has WAY too much power in this country and has tried to DESTROY our democracy. I've been saying for years that they aren't just stealing our elections, but killing them slowly with 1,000 cuts. The lines are an absolute DISGRACE!

I encourage DUers to write their local newspaper. You can usually do it online and it really gets your voice heard. Please write your paper about the shame of our broken democracy, the incredible importance of VOTES and the need to improve the system.

Thanks!

[leftchick]

46. that whole 'bringing democracy" to other countries?

total bullshit for suckers.

[OHDEM]

49. I realize that.

But it's entertaining to point out the utter hypocrisy of the Republicans.

You know, like they LOVE this country. Except for the "unAmerican" parts where all the liberals live.

They hate Hollywood. Except for Schwarzenagger, Gibson and other righties..oh and their GOD Ronald Reagan.

They're worried about voter fraud. Except for the ACTUAL fraud taking place on bogus machines and their work to disenfranchise anyone who *might* not vote for them.

They hate taxes and want fiscal responsibility. But they run up debt in war and other spending and none of their elected Presidents EVER balance the budget.

See? It's fun!

[old guy]

21. I live in NW Wi. and this is the way it's done here.

Your name is checked by two different people, you get a paper ballot, you vote and are gone in minutes By law we have one machine, but few use it.

[SidDithers]

22. The only problem I ever had voting in Oakville...

was when my polling place was located in an upscale seniors' building, and the front door was kept locked. You had to be buzzed in to get to the polling station, but there were no signs telling you that. I noticed people pulling on a locked door, and a few gave up and walked away. I called the Returning Office, and not long after they had a person (staff or volunteer) holding the door open and directing people to the where the voting was taking place.

I think that the biggest difference, tho, is that our Canadian elections are administered by Elections Canada, the federal elections commission. Am I wrong in thinking that US elections are more like a combination of 50 smaller elections, all administered by 50 state agencies?

Sid

[Ms. Toad]

23. What is the largest number of races/issues

you vote on? There are 31 on my ballot this time. More races = longer time in the booth/at the machine, and longer to count (if you are hand counting).

[JBoy]

25. We almost never have referenda here, and they're not combined with a regular election.

Aside from a couple sovereignty referenda in Quebec, the last one I recall was in 1992, the "Charlottetown Accord" which was a package of proposed Constitutional changes affecting federal/provincial divisions of power. Prior to that you'd have to go back to WW2 for conscription, and before that prohibition. In general, we expect our politicians to deal with issues like abortion, gay marriage, taxes. On some of those more controversial issues, a party will sometimes free up their members of parliament to vote their conscience (or in accordance with their constituents' wishes) rather than having to vote the party line.

As far as ballot complexity, the most complex elections are municipal, where you have to vote for mayor, councillors, school board members, sometimes hydro commission, etc. Federal or Provincial elections are simply "pick one from the following".

[Ms. Toad]

28. The question was # of races/issues -

that is the primary difference between Canadian voting and US voting, in terms of creating bottlenecks. The number of separate choices each voter needs to make impacts how quickly ballots can be cast and counted. Voting on (and counting) a ballot with a single party choice (your Federal election ballot, I believe) is not the same as voting on and counting a ballot with 24 candidate races and 7 issues referendums (not an unusual number). I believe the difference in complexity between your municipal and your federal races also means that at least some Canadian jurisdictions use electronic counting mechanisms for the municipal elections.

If it takes you a few seconds to vote for one race, it takes each of us a few seconds per race times the number of races we have. You either need more machines, or have longer lines (or both).

As for how long it takes to count the ballots - if you are hand counting paper ballots you can just divide them once into stacks for each party, count the ballots in each stack and be done. For the US, you would need to do that for each of the multiple races - it would take significantly longer. Using machine counting, we usually have the results in 3 hours. With hand counting, it would likely be days (not necessarily a bad thing), but it wouldn't be the 3 hours you have in Canada because of the number of races.

[muriel_volestrangler]

29. In the UK, if there are other elections as well as the parliamentary one,

they count the parliamentary votes on that night, and leave the local ones until the next day.

A typical constituency gets a result about 4 hours after the polls close, with hand counting.

[Ms. Toad]

35. I am not arguing one way or the other

regarding hand counting (and there certainly are choices that can be made regarding order of counting if we decide that hand counting is important - or hand counts could be done for races which are within 10% by optical scan count, or any number of variations.)

The question initially posed was (paraphrasing here) "why is there a US bottleneck - in Canada we never have to wait in line, we cast our ballots very quickly, and get the results in 3 hours.

Most US residents don't realize the Canadian system involves (generally) a single race - and I suspect many Canadians don't realize how complex our elections are. (Municipal elections have more races, but many of those ballots are counted using optical scanning machines because they are more complex - but still, not generally as complex as a US election.) I have the advantage of having Canadian family and friends - so I know a bit about the Canadian election system.

When you compare apples to oranges, you don't expect the same results, but if you don't know what you are comparing are two different fruits, you might be shocked and appalled at the differences.

[muriel_volestrangler]

39. Yeah, I was just saying that you can prioritise the different elections

so that you can get the national result settled first, so you don't have the rest of the country waiting for a particularly slow area to finish.

[ailsagirl]

24. I understand your bewilderment-- having voted both in Canadian

and American elections, I'd say that it was a breeze in Canada. But I don't really have an answer to your question other than there are WAY more Americans than Canadians. And, since 2000, things have been pretty damn insane!!

[Two Americas]

26. yes

It was once that way here, but things have been steadily getting worse for decades now. It favors the right wingers to suppress the vote, and we have been putting up with a massive ongoing effort to suppress voting by the right wingers. The Democrats have been too busy and spend too much time and energy on suppressing the Left within the party to very effectively battle against the right wingers. can't get "too radical" you know and fighting for our right to vote would be "too radical" apparently. We aid and abet that complacency and weakness when we send the message to the Democratic politicians that we love and support them no matter what, so long as they are marginally "better than Republicans."

[Beregond2]

27. Back when we used to have to go to the polls

here in WA, it was exactly like that. I never waited in a line. I can't understand why it is so difficult in so many places.

[quiet.american]

33. Yep, that's the way it works in NYC, too, except we pull a lever. nt

[Octafish]

37. Excellent System, Yours.

Relying on paper ballots rather than electons is both fool-proof and fail-safe.

DUers -- including our Canadian brothers and sisters -- have talked about this since January 2001.

Why Congress was so quick to push through that Help America Vote act with its reliance on e-voting makes perfect sense for the conspiratorial-minded, like me.

[wildeyed]

38. My sis lives in Australia.

Voting is mandatory there. If you skip, you get a $200 or $300 fine.

[kenny blankenship]

40. Our political and electoral machinery dates back to the 18th century

(when most people weren't allowed by law to vote anyway because they were not rich)
It was the best mechanism that anyone could come up with in early settler days. Everything was decentralized and it took weeks to collect and count all the ballots. We keep it that way, more or less, in the 21st century to keep...let's say, too many... people from voting. You wouldn't want too many people to vote - it would be too many! To maintain the status quo in this country you really want to restrict voting as far as possible to people A) who have very stable domestic patterns such as homeowners, so they can easily show skeptical registrars that they reside at a given address. B) people have the time and patience to iron out adminstrative errors, C) people who can get away from work easily and have their own transportation. Let those who really deserve to vote have the vote, is the silent motto of our U.S. system.

[nichomachus]

41. Vote rigging is as American as apple pie. n/t

[progressoid]

42. Blah, blah, blah. You Canadians with your effecient voting, affordable healthcare, stable banks,

low infant mortality, etc. etc. etc.


Fuck, I'm getting depressed.

[Nikia]

43. Perhaps there are more polling places per voter

I have noticed that this seems to vary by area. Two years ago when state offices were up for election, we waited nearly an hour at our polling place. This one polling places is for over 10,000 people. In every other place I lived in, there were more polling places for that amount of people.

[canetoad]

44. JBoy, I've been wondering the same

Aussie voting system seems pretty much the same as yours. Polling places at schools, community halls etc., never far away and no lines.

Do you have a Federal system in Canada or do the provinces each have their own set of rules? It's federal here and I'm convinced it leads to a slicker process.

[JBoy]

47. We have both Federal and provincial systems in Canada.

Elections Canada runs the federal election, and each province has a similar organization to run it's elections. Municipal elections are run by the municipality in accordance with the provincial "Local Government Act" (so there's some provincial oversight).

All the electoral agencies are non-partisan.

[BoneDaddy]

45. Jboy, that is how it works for me in NJ too

it seems that the urban heavily Democratic areas only really experience this.

[Creationismsucks]

48. The Ability to Recount

is what I like most about our Canuck paper system. Without a hard copy of the vote, voter confidence will go down the toilet. Even if the counting process took weeks, the back-up ability of paper would make it the only legit choice to me. Virtual votes are just BEGGING to be tampered with.

[eridani]

50. When ballots get complicated, Canadians use opscan

At least that is the case with Vancouver. Same systems used in King County, WA.

What Canadians don't get is that we don't vote party slates, but individual candidates. Also, local and state elections get piled right on top of national elections. My state legislative district is split between three congressional districts, four cities plus unincorporated areas, and three county council districts. And then there are initiatives, referendums, school bonds, fire, water and sewer districts, etc. King County has 3082 different ballot styles in the 2008 general election. Some precints are split between different fire or school districts, necessitaating two different ballot styles for a single precinct.

We could do national offices by paper only, but only if that is all we are doing at a time.