when was the last time a black person was leader of the most powerful nation on earth?

[Gato Moteado]

it's been a while.

this election is more historic than most people think. the world is changing for the better....becoming more enlightened. tolerance and equality and fairness are within our grasp.

[EC]

1. Egypt... n/t

[Tumbulu]

3. that was my best guess as well (nt)

[TexasObserver]

2. been a long time, been a long time, been a long ...

[Gato Moteado]

11. ....lonely, lonely, lonely, lonely time.

nt

[TexasObserver]

19. thank you

[conspirator]

43. I would say black africa was only a super power during the beginning of mankind

as soon as man migrated out of africa, he developed new technologies to survive in the harsh conditions, that later made them more powerful. African tribes didn't need to develop those techs, because they have food growing in trees and sunshine all year round.

[LeftyMom]

4. More than likely some of our prior presidents had significant recent african ancestry

The difference would be that it's not a secret.

[nadinbrzezinski]

5. Rome....

yep, been a while

(one of the Emperors came from North Africa... not all were Italians. Yet another from Spain)

[Gato Moteado]

7. interesting....

i figured it was egypt, like some of the other responders. roman empire is way more recent than i would have thought.

[nadinbrzezinski]

8. Here you go, Septimus Severus

http://www.100greatblackbritons.com/bios/septimus_severus.html

[kansasblue]

9. cool, thanks for the info

[nadinbrzezinski]

10. You welcome

history is lots of fun, especially these relatively minor characters

[Gato Moteado]

12. well.....it's only been about 1800 years

;)

thanks for the link.

[nadinbrzezinski]

16. You welcome but far better than Egypt

and my those pieces of data learned long ago

They just churn

[Name removed]

15. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[nadinbrzezinski]

18. Sorry to be quite pesky about this

but Septimus Severus does count...

There is more....
'
YOUR definition of race and that of ancient Rome are at odds with each other

And given that HISTORIANS did consider him a Black African... well yes, he does count

By the way... as far as I am concerned even having this discussion of whether Obama is black enough is ahem... racist...

[rebel with a cause]

21. I agree it is racist much.

another way to go about attacking our candidate.

[Name removed]

27. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[rebel with a cause]

28. It is all the same.

Saying that Barack is not Black enough is an attack as far as I am concerned. I went through this crap in 2004 with him and again this year. Barack represents us all, no matter what ethnic group we belong to, but he identifies himself as a Black man and that is how others identify him also. Can't give you a pass on this one. :shrug:

[nadinbrzezinski]

52. So riddle me this, McCain does?

[deaniac21]

51. clearly not black

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Septimius_Severus

[nadinbrzezinski]

53. Where exactly was he born? Africa

how was he spoken off in Ancient Rome... oh yes, Black African

I know that the melanin tone is not there, but hey... whatever

After all we all know that Romans thought of race the same way Americans in the 21st Century do :sarcasm:

[surrealAmerican]

57. The thing is, it really is only skin tone.

Ancestry has very little to do with what race one is considered to be. This is why US presidents in recent times, who almost certainly had some African ancestry, were and are not considered "black".

[nadinbrzezinski]

59. Thing is Septimus Severus was referred as a black african by his

contemporaries

You tell me why?

Perhaps because our concept of race is rather ahem, RECENT... as in centuries, not millenia

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

63. Source?

[nadinbrzezinski]

67. Look up thread I posted a link

or use the google...

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

69. I see a link claiming he was a Briton.

:rofl:

Anything on his contemporaries calling him a "black African?"

[nadinbrzezinski]

71. A link saying he was born in Africa

you can't read, can you?

and here is more

http://www.cwo.com/~lucumi/rome.html

http://www.cwo.com/~lucumi/severus.html

Ignorance is bliss I know


:nopity: :nopity: :nopity: :nopity: for ya

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

73. Yes, I concede he was born in Africa.

I was asking you to support the claim that his contemporaries thought of him as a "black African."

You haven't provided any.

[nadinbrzezinski]

75. He was referred that way in the senate

go read a book.. use the google

I learned that in Western Civ 101 way back in the day...

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

77. You're making the claim.

Post a link.

[nadinbrzezinski]

82. I did, several of them

have a good day... life what have you

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

84. None of your links supported your claim...

that Septimus Severus was considered a "black African" by his contemporaries, specifically Senators.

In fact, when questioned, you told me to "look it up" because you covered in in history 101.

So please, either support your claim or retract it.

[nadinbrzezinski]

85. Open a book... have a good life,

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

86. So you can't substantiate your claim?

If I said John McCain was a latino Panamanian, would you believe me?

[Odin2005]

65. IIRC folks we would consider "black" were called "ethiopian" by the Greeks and Romans

Severus was a North African, and looks like modern North Africans

[nadinbrzezinski]

66. Exactly

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

62. So was de Klerk.

Severus's mother was Roman, his father Berber.

"After all we all know that Romans thought of race the same way Americans in the 21st Century do :sarcasm:"

Err, we were discussing this from a modern context, thanks.

[nadinbrzezinski]

68. You were, the rest of us understood that the OP referred to a person of African

descent... aka black african... and in the context of Rome... Septimus Severus WAS a black african

Get it now?

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

70. Well we're all of African descent.

So it still seems we're talking about Africans in the modern context of "African Americans."

"in the context of Rome... Septimus Severus WAS a black african"

In the context of Rome, Septimus Severus was Roman. Hell, in the context of Rome, Septimus Severus WAS Rome. The Romans understood the difference between a half-Roman, half-Berber person, and what we'd consider "African" in this context.

[Gato Moteado]

30. wow.....you've been here a few days and already polluting this place with racist posts....

....didn't you get the memo? tomorrow was the day to expose yourself.

[gollygee]

31. "Obama isn't black enough to count"??

WTF? Is there some score being kept that I'm unaware of?

[Vickers]

32. "Obama isn't black enough to count"

:wtf:

[MJkcj]

38. what? a "real" black? is that like a "real american"?

you're joking right?

[notadmblnd]

46. You know, there is probably not one person in existance whose race is pure

Just how black is black enough? I would suggest that if you look far enough back into your heritage, you're probably going to find that you're not "pure" either. Will you then question whether or not you are black enough?

[malaise]

36. Thanks for this

I had no idea.

[mamaE]

40. thanks - cool. Not the most powerful place but Mandela

is a name that should be mentioned and praised.

[nadinbrzezinski]

55. Indeed....

and Ghandhi as well, even if India was NOT a powerful nation, just took on an empire

[Odin2005]

37. North Africans aren't black. n/t.

[RoyGBiv]

50. Small point ...

There's been a rather major shift in demographics in the North African region since the 1st Century, CE.

[nadinbrzezinski]

56. And as you know Romans referred to Septimus Severus as a black african

even if he was melanin challenged

Hell it led to all kinds of fun and games at the Senate... no, not because of race, but where he was born and that he was not one of the Roman Elite... aka Rome, the city of Rome.

So as far as the contemporaries were concerned he was.

Who am I to judge?

The fact that we are trying to look at this (not your and me, but folks today) from the POV of our current definitions of race, speaks volumes about our own racism as a society.

And trying to impose our values on the past, (not at you, since you know that) is a no-no in historiography.

[RoyGBiv]

58. Indeed ...

I've had this argument before, many times, in widely varying contexts. Had a discussion with one chap who was convinced Romans were "racists" because he'd run across some obscure article somewhere that talked about an archeological find in Ethiopia in which was found what amounted to a "Keep Out" sign. It was theorized based on other things found at the site that this was an artifact of some sort of dispute between Romans and the Aksum Empire.

This gentleman interpreted from this that since people who live in Ethiopia are black (he's seen it on the teevee) and the Romans white (saw that on teevee too I guess) that Romans hated blacks. I think he called his little essay on the subject something like Rome: For Whites Only and tried to use a drinking fountain analogy pulled from the US South. 'Twas weird.

Professor tore him apart.

This is one of the legacies of race-based slavery that may haunt us until civilization is as far removed from our time as we are from the Romans. People in general just do not understand -- and many can't even conceptualize -- the idea that the idea of "race" as we define it is a relatively modern invention.

Certainly we've found plenty of things on which to divide ourselves. We should choose eye-color next time and turn that experiment that teacher back in the 60's did into a full-scale exercise.

[Odin2005]

60. No there hasn't.

That seems to be a popular assertion but I have seen no evidence supporting it.

[RoyGBiv]

87. None?

Really?

Have you ever read anything about the various caliphates established after the death of the Muhammad and their influence on the changing demographics of an area extending from southern France south into the western Sahara and east into modern Turkey? (I'm going in reverse here, actually.)

[MazeRat7]

6. The Kings (Pharaohs) of Ancient Egypt n/t

[Odin2005]

39. Calling Egyptians "black" is very misleading IMO.

Genetically they are a mix of North African (which are usually considered "white" in the broad sense) and East African gene pools. They certainly didn't look like West Africans and their African-American cousins.

[conspirator]

41. I agree. North africans are mixed, not black, but arabic nt

[SweetieD]

54. Ancient Egyptians were not arabs.

[Odin2005]

61. you are confusing ethnicity and genetics.

Egyptians were assimilated into the Arab cultural sphere, they were not replaced.

[Number23]

72. You don't really understand what you're saying, do you?

North africans are mixed, not black, but arabic

There is just so much inaccuracy in this short statement. Arabs are not a race. An Arab simply means a person who comes from a land where Arabic is the predominant language. An Arab could be black as night or white as snow.

And what are North Africans "mixed" with???

[conspirator]

81. Arabs are not a race? Is bin laden caucasian? NO. Is he black? NO.

So the large group of people living in the arabic peninsula and surrounding areas that have the same physical attributes as bin laden, are what? Sure there are black arabs and snow white arabs, but the mix becomes a race when there are large numbers.
That's my definition. It may be different to yours.

My statement is incomplete I acknowledge.
I meant north africans are a mix of white, black and arabic, but predominantly arabic.

[Number23]

89. No, Arabs are not a race

I thought I said that pretty clearly in my first post. And you do realize that there are more than two races (black and white) in the world, don't you??

As I said, being an "Arab" simply means that you originate from a country in which Arabic is the predominant language. It has nothing to do with physical attributes as you keep trying to assert. By your logic, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, the president of Iran would be an Arab because of his physical characteristics. But he is NOT an Arab because in Iran, Farsi is the predominant language.

Israelis and Palestinians share a very common "racial" heritage through centuries of shared Middle Eastern ancestry. However, Palestinians are Arabs while Israelis, where the dominant language is Hebrew (even though that is rapidly changing) are NOT Arabs.

[malaise]

42. So what is Obama again? n/t

[Odin2005]

47. Oops, dupe.

[Odin2005]

48. Hmm, East African and White. Good observation, LOL!

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

64. Depends on which Egyptians you're talking about.

The Nubian Pharoahs were certainly black by modern standards.

[cemaphonic]

74. Generally I would agree

From a modern American notion of what "black" ethnicity is like - Coastal, Sub-Saharan West Africans with a particular range of skin tones and other physical markers - Ancient Egyptians weren't black.

There was a pharonic dynasty or two from Nubia (southern Sudan, generally) that probably would be considered black.

But it depends a lot on how terms are defined, and since nobody can agree on these, these discussions always go around in circles. The only one that really annoys me is when people try to claim that Cleopatra was black. Her whole dynasty was a bunch of highly inbred Macedonian Greeks.

[Bullet1987]

76. The most recent genetic/physical studies have shown that

many Ancient Egyptians had tropically-adapted bodies and are more related to modern day Sudanese or Ethiopians than North Africans.

[DeltaLitProf]

13. Thomas Jefferson

Recent biographies have located some of his ancestors in Africa.

[jacksonian]

20. thomas jefferson

despite the whatever with his heritage, was never the leader of the most powerful nation on earth. He was the leader of an isolated rogue backwater country half a world away from "real" civilization.

[Oregone]

23. Great point...but....

The US is looking pretty backwater in certain places these days. :) Hell, last I check they can't even keep their citizens housed and free of sickness.

[arcadian]

33. Thomas Jefferson's ancestors would have no bearing on his own ethnic background.

n/t

[Jack Rabbit]

14. An African tribe conquered and established a dynasty in Egypt, ruling there for about a century

Afrocentric interpretations aside, these were indisputably black Pharaohs.

Here we go. From the National G (February 2008). The dynasty was founded in 730 BC.

[Terran]

49. Thanks (you beat me)

It was the Kush civilization, aka the Nubians, who are usually seen only as slaves in crappy old movies about ancient Egypt.

And really, trying to separate out parts of Africa as "black" and other parts as "not black", as some have done in this thread, is pointless. In ancient Africa they had no such distinctions, and civilizations all over the continent had long-standing cultural and trade ties with each other. It stands to reason that, much like today, Africa is a melting pot of ethnicities. People in North Africa were probably as mixed with "black" as Obama himself is.

[Warpy]

17. Egypt, India...

take your pick.

[Oregone]

22. Define powerful.

:)

[XOKCowboy]

24. Think what it means to this young man...

For the first time he knows what I've known since grade school. That he now also can become President.

[BlooInBloo]

25. I look forward to serving my new black overlords.

:P

[anigbrowl]

26. 211 AD, in Rome.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Septimius_Severus

[Ghost Dog]

29. Could be Sultan Abu l-Hasan Ali of Morocco (ruled 1335-1351 AD)?

You're saying 'nation', itself a rather recent concept, rather than country or culture or empire... But at the time, this ruler would have been very influential all the way from al-Andalus, across North Africa and as far as Damascus and beyond...

And see list at link: http://www.whenweruled.com/articles.php?lng=en&pg=5

...I'd have to do more research to find out about 'blackness' (whatever that means to you), though. This site discusses 'Africans'.

edit: No. 1 on the list is directly relevant, though: Abd-al-Mumin of the Almohades (ruled 1133-1163 AD)
Moroccan Founder of the Almohad Empire that ruled in North Africa and Spain. Abd-al-Mumin was a Negro Berber from Morocco. He became the leader of the Almohades, a radical Islamic movement that eventually became the Third Islamic Dynasty in Moslem Spain...

[Virginia Dare]

34. Warren Harding, 1920's...

Will Americans vote for a black president? If the notorious historian William Estabrook Chancellor was right, we already did. In the early 1920s, Chancellor helped assemble a controversial biographical portrait accusing President Warren Harding of covering up his family’s “colored” past. According to the family tree Chancellor created, Harding was actually the great-grandson of a black woman. Under the one-drop rule of American race relations, Chancellor claimed, the country had inadvertently elected its “first Negro president.”



http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/06/magazine/06wwln-essay-t.html

[SweetieD]

88. Harding was not Black. It was a smear campaign not unlike the Muslim smears against Ob

Obama in this current campaign. Harding's opponent knew it would devastate him politically if it came out that Harding had black ancestry. Similarly, people started the Obama is muslim rumors in an effort to keep some people from voting for him. Calling Harding the first Black president is like someone 70 years from now calling Obama the first Muslim president. There is no historical basis for Harding being black.

[Tutonic]

35. Ok...is the US the MOST POWERFUL?

[LibertyLover]

44. Egypt during the 25th dynasty

known as the Kushite Dynasty.

[immoderate]

80. I was going to post "Kush"

Learned that from Dizzy Gillespie.

--IMM

[Nye Bevan]

45. Just think

Towards the end of Barack's second term there will be 11-12 year-olds who will have no memory of the US having anything other than a black president. It is awe-inspiring what this is going to do for the hopes and aspirations of young black children in this country. The ability to be whatever you want will no longer be a tired cliche but a proven fact.

The US will have proved itself to be a true meritocracy. If someone with Obama's life story can become president, beating out the establishment white country-club candidate, there is no reason for anyone in this country to think that their skin color will hold them back.

This election will show the US to be the most modern, meritocratic, forward-looking, non-racist country on the planet. Nothing can ever fully atone for the horrors of slavery and Jim Crow but the election of Obama is a huge step towards healing those wounds.

[ContinentalOp]

93. "This election will show the US to be..."

"the most modern, meritocratic, forward-looking, non-racist country on the planet."

Well, let's not get carried away ;)

Great point about the 11-12 year olds though!

[Bullet1987]

78. To answer the question of the topic of the thread

There have been a number of powerful Black kingdoms in sub-saharan Africa. Medieval Mali was the RICHEST kingdom for a while (that's where a majority of the worlds gold came from)...though I don't know if you could call them the most powerful.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

79. Yes, I thought of Mansa Musa myself.

But I didn't think it met the "most powerful" qualifier.

[cureautismnow]

83. How 'bout former Secretary-General of the United Nations? - Kofi Annan

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kofi_Annan

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

90. that's a good one.

[MrsBrady]

91. yes, but it's not a country n/t

[cureautismnow]

92. True. It's 192 countries. n/t