People don't eat less meat because they *DON'T REALLY CARE*

[RadiationTherapy]

Same with cars. Same with population density. Same with plastic sweat shop junk made in china and bought by us. Same with not using their turn signal. People do not care.

[uppityperson]

1. Many people do eat less meat, just is annoying being preached to. eom

[superduperfarleft]

12. Define "preaching."

If I ask you to vote for Obama and give you a list of reasons why that would have positive consequences for the country and the rest of the world, and why a McCain administration would have negative consequences, is that "preaching?"

If I state that shopping at Wal-Mart (when other options are available) is not preferable because of their abysmal labor and environmental record, is that "preaching?"

If I say that it is preferable to not buy a gigantic Hummer because of the negative environmental consequences, is that "preaching?"

Seems to me that's what people do all day on DU, or any other political website for that matter. So if I state that eating meat has the following ethical implications and environmental consequences, why is that suddenly "preaching?"

[uppityperson]

16. Meat is Murder, eating any meat is bad because that shows you don't have any respect for

the environment or have any political savvy you moran freeper.

That sort of thing.

Eating anything has ethical implications and environmental consequences, not just meat.

[superduperfarleft]

26. I agree, which is why I don't act like that.

And I know very few vegetarians/vegans who do.

And you're right, the problem is not just meat. I would argue that meat has larger ethical implications since plants are clearly not sentient and pigs and cows are, but there are a variety of problems that can be addressed with the conversation on food, such as the lack of availability of nutritious food in low-income neighborhoods, corporate and non-organic/GMO farming, etc. But you have to admit that the standard american diet requires so much meat that factory farming is an inevitability, and that people could do something positive for the environment by cutting down (while I admit that I would prefer that people did not eat meat at all).

Add in the fact that discussing anything online tends to turn otherwise normal people into absolute jackasses, myself included.

But back to your original statement, can't you admit that the omnivores act a bit knee-jerk, defensive, and baiting/trollish as well whenever this conversation is brought up?

[uppityperson]

30. My original statement "Many people do eat less meat, just is annoying being preached to."

[superduperfarleft]

36. And I agreed.

And I still have yet to meet the mythical vegan who runs around screaming "Murderer!" at meat-eaters.

I could say I don't like when unicorns bust into my house and poop on the carpet, but it's not really relevant here either.

[endthewar]

74. Alright, break it up you two

Have a burger to tide you over for now.

:beer:

[jakem]

135. I have profound respect for bacon.

many pork products, really-

[TexasObserver]

146. Bacon is holy.

[Gwendolyn]

46. That would be preaching to the choir, so isn't a good analogy.

If you talked about encouraging McCain as the way to go, and cited Obama as a communist, preached that everyone should buy a hummer and drive cross country, that Walmart is a fine employer, the disdain you'd expect to get would be a better comparison to the reaction to animal flesh. You're assuming that your point of view is the only correct one.

[superduperfarleft]

51. I'm not talking about just on DU.

I'm talking about everywhere. If I disagree with someone here about their eating of animal flesh, I'd be more than happy to explain why I disagree with it. But when you automatically label an attempt to have a respectful discussion between two people who might disagree (which admittedly, the OP is not) as "preaching," you're discounting my position without even listening to it.

Never mind the comparisons to fundie Christians, anti-abortion protesters, or Hitler/Nazis.

[Goblinmonger]

66. You're assuming

that the vegetarian viewpoint and the argument to reduce meat consumption is a conservative, freeper viewpoint. You've defined that act as being bad. Ergo, you are bad.

Seriously, do you think changing lifestyle as a means to expand rights and help the environment is a progressive or conservative action?

[Gwendolyn]

91. No that's not what I'm saying at all!!!

I'm not comparing being a vegan to freeper qualities. I was just musing on peoples' response depending on how agreeable they find the message. If you start a thread saying how much you admire Obama, of course everyone will respond positively, because they share your opinion. The animal flesh issue will bring a different, seemingly more closed minded reaction, because people happen to disagree with you. I just said it wasn't a good analogy.

Anyway, the poster expanded on his/her thought, so my reply to it is kind of mootish at this point. :)

[Dorian Gray]

96. I eat far less meat than I used

to, but this OP seems to be trying to make me feel guilty for eating meat at all. I care. I eat less and try to find the most humanely grown and local meat that I can. (Grass fed) I don't eat poultry, pork or beef all that often, though I do eat fish most nights.

[RadiationTherapy]

159. Thank you for caring and the adaptations you have made. nt

[surrealAmerican]

176. Thank you. This is really the best response.

[Dennis Donovan]

2. Maybe they DO care - tomorrow will tell us so. n/t

[hisownpetard]

3. The entire Obama campaign proves your theory wrong.

[smoogatz]

4. I eat meat because I care.

About meat.

[amdezurik]

5. quite a broad brush there

so if someone does not happen to "care enough" about a particular thing they are all eeeeeeeeeeee-vil? How Palin of you...

[RadiationTherapy]

11. Where's the implication of "evil"?

[IndianaJones]

6. bacon tastes good. pork chops tastes good. nt.

[RadiationTherapy]

13. Pulp Fiction quote! Haute Couture!

[peppermintsunshine]

29. So basically you're admitting that if it feels good, do it?!

No concern for the environment or better use of that land?

[IndianaJones]

31. essentially. nt.

[NeedleCast]

57. Hehehe

Win!

[TheFriendlyAnarchist]

38. And people say I strawman

(and I admit that when I get heated I do), but still, lol.

[Javaman]

149. Strawmen are SOYLENT GREEN!!! nt

[Marrah_G]

42. Aren't you just a little ray of sunshine!

:eyes:

I'm guessing you are either one of two things, but do to Du rules I can't say what those two things are.

[Maine-ah]

124. I love veggie burgers with bacon and cheese.

[Oregone]

7. I don't eat meat. Not that I spent a lot of time caring about it these last 30 years...

[rucky]

8. This approach never convinces anyone of anything.

It may feel good to say, but if your goal is to persuade, it'll probably have the opposite effect.

[RadiationTherapy]

19. Bah. I am not trying to persuade. I am trying to save time

for people who see the logical, scientific facts behind how the meat production industry affects climate and disease and wonder why there is so little change. For those who see an actual backlash; an increase in the pride and quantity of meat consumed as if to spite the facts.

[notadmblnd]

9. Is it your head that they're pointing that laser at?

[yodoobo]

10. Well that and they are probably hungry too.

[yodoobo]

14. haha - love the google advertisements next to your post!

[ismnotwasm]

15. True

I was just reading about "The three modes of covering up; Thoughtlessness, Bad faith and Mis recognition" in regards to structural injustice.

It's a long essay, but it got me thinking about my own complicity in things that need to be changed, or at least a large scale-and hopefully civil-- discourse started

[unpossibles]

17. many do. I've been a vegetarian for close to 15 years

(would have been 20 except I fell off the wagon for a bit in the middle), and I have seen a LOT more people making a conscious decision to eat less meat, eat less factory farmed meat, and eat more vegetables. Restaurants and grocers have a TON more vegetarian options than they used to. I think a lot of people do care, just like a lot of people care about gas and other energy consumption.

[busybl]

18. so what are you?

the meat consumption police?

[RadiationTherapy]

34. Nope. Just trying to explain to those who find the lack of lessened meat consumption

bizarre and disappointing. It isn't a mystery; it is a genuine lack of caring about the impact of our lifestyle.

[neomonkey]

20. I eat meat because I'm an omnivore

and thousands of years of evolution have led me here.

I try whenever possible to avoid factory/industrial meat, but it's pretty hard to opt out of that in this day and age of corporate, bottom-dollar farming.

[RadiationTherapy]

56. Thanks for trying to avoid the industrial meat-complex.

Can you and your family eat a bit less meat?

[LanternWaste]

93. Me too. Thousands of years of evolution have led me...

"thousands of years of evolution have led me here..."

Me too. Thousands of years of evolution have led me to crap whenever and wherever I feel the urge. Thank God we can overcome evolutionary instincts when it's called for...

[neomonkey]

120. Hmm

So you are equating taking a crap in 7-11 with eating a steak, I presume?
Wow, please don't come out of your little insular world, please..and if you must, please continue doing it through the internet.

[LanternWaste]

128. One is a result of evolution, the other is too.

One is a result of evolution, the other is too. In this particular context, the relevant similarities are addressed.

Intellectual consistency is not an "insular little world..."
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[neomonkey]

131. Well luckily for me societal mores have thus far

not cast meat eaters in the same light as public shitters :)
I'm sure if you had your way, though...

Look, I'm having a pork chop for lunch today, and along with it, about 8oz of green beans I sauteed last night. Yum!

Sorry for going ballistic, but we'll never see eye to eye on this one.

[LanternWaste]

154. Dunno what you mean there, chief...

Dunno what you mean there, chief. I eat meat. Never said I didn't. Was only addressing a specific sub-argument pertaining to the excuses, justification and defenses in the name of "evolution".

On the other hand, I don't make it point to advertise that I do in fact eat meat on Vegan threads as civility is more important than my own self-validation...

[Runcible Spoon]

110. I'm so sick of these specious arguments

there are a 1,000 things you do on a daily basis which deny or suppress evolutionary instinct. Do you try to fuck every attractive person you see? Do you shit right there in the street? Being human means using culture to modify instincts, not always a good thing but I''m not buying this biological imperative bullshit. If you know that something is irresponsible, but do it anyway, you're not reacting purely on instincts or evolution. You're just being a dick. For the record, I am NOT advocating total vegetarianism, but I am aware that it is our CULTURE and HISTORY that have given us an entitlement complex when it comes to eating SO MUCH meat. You think in "nature" you would get access to so much meat? In most pre-industrial human societies throughout time, meat was relatively difficult to come by. It was distributed carefully. What we have today is nothing NEAR "natural"; eating LESS meat is actually closer to some notion of a "natural" human diet.

[neomonkey]

118. Farce, you read way much more into my post than lived in your retort

If we seek optimum health we need to meet our evolutionary imperatives.

For the record, I am not a dick (I do have one, though) and I realize the artifically created abundance of meat in modern society is very unnatural. In fact, there are many artifically created gluts of a lot of crap that we have to choose from and I resist.

I merely stated a fact. I'm an omnivore and I eat meat. If that bothers you, boo hoo for you.

[Runcible Spoon]

122. the only thing that bothers me is the sense of entitlement

you are an omnivore by choice, face it. You don't live your life according to pure evolutionary imperatives by any stretch of the imagination. Good for you making more responsible choices, however.

[Lorien]

133. Well put. n/t

[Dangerously Amused]

21. Respectfully disagree.

I think most people do those things not because they know they are unhealthy (for them, for the planet, for others, whatever) and don't care, I think they do those things because they don't know/fully comprehend the broad and long-term consequences of those everyday actions, and would care or at least care more if they became enlightened.

A lot and I would go so far as to say most people are ignorant about a many important world issues (myself included). Sadly, our society encourages ignorance with media emphasis placed on things like beauty pageants over social justice issues.

But you're right, there are always people who are willfully ignorant, lack empathy and use and abuse others and their environment.

Pity there isn't a foolproof "integrity" test for voters.

[RadiationTherapy]

54. Well, it certainly did not occur to me that people are unaware of the climate/pollution

impact of factory farming.

So, cheers to those who care but don't know!

[bean fidhleir]

67. I think you've pegged it. Not many people will continue to do destructive things

if they really truly know what they're doing. It's pretty much impossible.

One tipoff for me is the amount of money the ruling class spends telling us why it's good for us that we do things that are bad for us. If those things were really good for us, our rulers wouldn't need to keep telling us -- we'd pick up on the beneficial changes in our lives and be self-motivating.

[Dangerously Amused]

107. Precisely.

[acmavm]

22. Due to economics people are eating less meat. But some of us

acknowledge the fact that we're carnivores and we wish others would quit worrying about what we're eating when we do eat.

[Goblinmonger]

72. We're not carnivores

We're omnivores. If one wants to use science to back up their point, one might want to use it correctly. We are not designed to exist on only meat (carnivore). We can survive on either or both.

[acmavm]

103. Okay, we're omnivores. So we can survive on both. Lots of us

like meat, intend to continue to eat meat.

Bitching about meat consumption isn't gonna stop global warning.

[lelgt60]

23. I love the high pitched scream fresh broccoli makes when I plunge it into boiling water...

Carrots are pretty good too...just an awesome gurgling.

Every so often, those sounds get to me, so I eat some meat.

Unless you're willing to just eat rocks (which, I suppose, is possible), we all need to eat living things to survive.

The argument about the environment carries some weight, but, like most environmental issues, can be improved.

Like others, I'm not interested in someone else being the food police.

[Marrah_G]

24. yes- I don't care about the exact same things you do!

I grew up in a Catholic Family- go play your holier then thou guilt shit on someone else- I am immune.

Stay out of my house, stay out of my bed, stay out of my uterus and stay out of my stomach.

Posts like yours do nothing to further the causes you support, they simply annoy people and we just tune your crap right out.

Bye Bye.

I need to go buy my pitbull a handgun.

[RadiationTherapy]

65. Well, your subject line made sense.

The rest of it you don't have to worry about because I DON'T CARE enough about limiting your freedoms to crusade against them.

[RadiationTherapy]

68. Well, your subject line made sense.

The rest of it you don't have to worry about because I DON'T CARE enough about limiting your freedoms to crusade against them.

[TKolmsi]

25. I think not using the turn

signal might result in a more immediate action, eh?

[peppermintsunshine]

27. Correct, right on, get down with your bad self!

It's called selfishness. It's called laziness. It's called self-indulgence. But it is truly shocking to see it so prevalent on DU. I thought we were all earthy crunchy-granola types.

People, THEY ARE/WERE EATING DIRT COOKIES IN HAITI! All because there is/was a shortage of grain last summer. Food riots broke out in many countries. One of the big reasons is that corn was being diverted for use in ethanol instead of feeding people! For shame!

[Marrah_G]

35. Oh look......it left the bridge unattended.

[Goblinmonger]

75. So vegetarians are trolls? n/t

[Marrah_G]

89. Not at all- I was speaking to one particular poster

One that is trying to further the divide and behaving in an obnoxious manner that most vegetarians and vegans do not behave in. If fact I have never met one in real life who acted like that.

[Name removed]

125. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[superduperfarleft]

39. Well said.

And if someone calls you a troll for pointing out the fact that our actions in the first-world too often have negative consequences for the third-world, don't even sweat it. Welcome to DU.

[NeedleCast]

60. SHAME!!

Such a good argument to sell people with.

Fundies love it.

[uppityperson]

28. True. I don't eat cars, pop density or plastic sweat shop stuff. I don't care for them.

ah dang, I just kicked this again.

[gollygee]

32. Define "less". What amount of meat do you think it's OK for someone to eat?

Assuming that person cares.

[superduperfarleft]

33. People should drive less, should shop locally/organically more.

Don't you agree?

I don't see the same calls to define those amounts.

[gollygee]

41. Yes but when vegetarians say "people should eat less meat"

the words don't match the music. They're saying "eat less meat" but it seems like the undertone is "don't eat any meat or you're evil!"

It just doesn't sound sincere. I have been eating less meat, but I still feel like I've got people rallying against me and my meat-eating ways. People treat it differently than driving and buying organic.

[superduperfarleft]

45. I'm vegan, so of course I'd prefer people eat no meat.

And good on you for examining how your choices affect the rest of the world, seriously.

If the conversation is about reducing meat consumption because of its environmental damage, we probably agree 100%. But I readily admit that if it's about the ethical implications of eating meat, we probably won't.

So on this particular topic, no hard feelings from me at all.

[Lilith Velkor]

49. Up until last week, it was "don't use any animal products at all or you're evil"

The sudden switch to "eat less meat" strikes me as a tad disingenuous.

Especially when they are whipping out the same guilt trips: selfish, don't care, etc.

[RadiationTherapy]

160. I am not affiliated with any groups. I eat some meat.

I eat less than I used to and want to because I care.

[Lilith Velkor]

170. I call bullshit.

The abrupt change in tactic, with level of sanctimony unchanged, is too well coordinated to be an individual phenomenon.

[Marrah_G]

44. It's much like the "pray to end abortion" people who protest the clinic in my town

what they really mean is "Legislate women's internal organs and violate her doctor patient privilege"

I actually do eat less meat then I once did...for my own reasons.

Posts like the OP are irritating and obnoxious.

[RadiationTherapy]

47. Less. As is less than you usually friggen eat.

Good thing I got that rocket science degree...

[gollygee]

50. I have reduced how much I eat

but maybe you'd think I'm still eating too much. I have no way of knowing.

[RadiationTherapy]

58. And I would have no right to ask.

If you eat "less than you used to" then thanks for contributing! Simple as that.

[NeedleCast]

63. Your failure to understand that this is not an answer...

is, in some ways, both cute and amusing.

I assume that every time someone posts and eat less meat thread on DU that once again, I'll have to reduce my meat intake to pass the purity test.

Unfortunatly Olive Garden wont serve veal in grams.

[RadiationTherapy]

76. MY failure to understand what "less" means?

Less than you usually eat. That's it. It does not have to be 'ad infinitum' or whatever sort of vegan overlord idea you want to project. Simply, less.

[superduperfarleft]

79. If we're talking about vegan overlords....

I call dibs on the position.

[NeedleCast]

138. I'll become a Vegan if there's an Overlord position available

I would just assume being an overlord includes a harem. Otherwise, no dice.

[superduperfarleft]

141. Hey, new recruitment strategy!

:)

I'll bring this up at the next meeting of the Super Secret Vegan Society, in between our adoration of Hitler and talking about how we want all people to die.

[Marrah_G]

143. Would the said harem members have to be Vegan also?

[NeedleCast]

134. Yes, your failure

You've mentioned in this thread that you are not a vegetarian so we can take from that that you eat some meat and that you find your level of meat consumption "acceptable" (or will you be eating less meat after posting this as well).

I could just as easily make the argument that YOU don't care because you eat meat.

What I take from your OP is that there is, at some point, an acceptable level of meat eating at which point a person can be said to "care" and that people who eat more than that amount of meat "don't care."

So please tell us, oh arbiter of meat consumption, what is an acceptable level of meat intake to have before one "cares?"

Do you get the logical disconnect here? Here you are, an omnivore, who has little to no knowledge of the meat intake of various people on this board making broad bruch claims that people "don't care" because they refuse to eat "less" meat.

[RadiationTherapy]

161. There is an "amount" of meat that we americans consume per year.

The production of that "amount" is having serious effects on the climate and conditions of our water and air. I think that if "people" "care" about these effects, then "we" can eat "less" meat.

It isn't about rationing or legislating, but rather a conscious awareness of one's contribution to the problem or the solution. The "solution" being eating "less" meat.

[NeedleCast]

173. Circular Argument Detected

No logic found, moving on...

[brendan120678]

121. From now on, I will limit my daily meat intake...

from three meals a day with a meat dish to two meals a day with a meat dish.

[RadiationTherapy]

162. A 33% reduction! thanks for caring! nt

[AndyTiedye]

37. Perhaps We Don't Agree With You

If fresh veggies take so much less energy, why do they cost so much?

Is it better to eat vegetables that have travelled 3000 miles on a truck instead of local, grass-fed livestock?

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

40. I eat meat because I'm a food lover.

I listen to different sorts of music too.

And I look at all kinds of different art.

[RadiationTherapy]

85. Oh, you are another one who projects a 'vegan activist' image onto me.

Fear not! Continue eating your meat!

Just stating that it requires 'care' about an issue to adapt, that's all.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

86. What's the matter? Dish it out but can't take it?

I like how you jumped to the conclusion that I was projecting a "vegan activist" imagine on to you.

Whatever that means.

[RadiationTherapy]

92. Well, because I was talking about 'less meat' and your post seemed to imply

'meat in general' which I am not talking about. You projected on to me because you want my post to be anti-meat rather than purely informative: People don't eat less meat because they don't care.

[DS1]

43. I care about Chinese junk, and try my best to avoid it

Unfortunately it's getting rather difficult.

[RadiationTherapy]

163. Thank you for caring and being honest.

I am crying now, but you knew that.

[cobalt1999]

48. If you don't make the same life decisions I'VE made it's because YOU DON'T CARE!

Everyone makes choices on their lifestyle, we all just make different choices. Anyone trying to act "holier than thou" on one choice is probably open to the same charge on another choice.

Are you a vegetarian but have a couple of kids? You've just made a bigger ecological footprint than a meat eating Hummer driving person without offspring.

Are you a vegetarian but use your home A/C all summer long? You've emitted more greenhouse gases than a meat eater this summer who used his ceiling fans only.

Are you a vegetarian, but buy imported vegies or food shipped from far away? You've probably used more energy than a meat eater buying local.

If you are going to get on your high horse and preach about caring to me, then you better not be open to the same charge on any other front.

[RadiationTherapy]

53. There are facts and science out there if you are interested.

Why is it preaching to point out the fact that people don't care?

I am not a vegetarian. Presumptuous.

[cobalt1999]

59. I've read the facts, UN reports, and scientific studies.

I agree, in general, that people don't care about the environment.

HOWEVER, (even if you are not one) any Vegetarian trying to make the claim that non-Vegetarians don't care is arguing based on only ONE of many lifestyle choices.

It just may be that the "holier than thou" vegetarian has a much HIGHER environmental impact total than those they are preaching to.

No one criteria can label a person as not caring.

The biggest environmental choice a person will make is having children. After that, everything else pales in comparison.

[RadiationTherapy]

64. Not a vegetarian; not promoting 'no meat'

just stating the obvious. People who do not adapt their behavior regarding an issue do not care about that issue.

[cobalt1999]

80. When your OP Subject states "People don't eat less meat because they *DON'T REALLY CARE*"

If gives the impression you are making a judgment based on one SINGLE choice a person makes in their life.

What if you posted "Anyone who has chosen to have more than 2 children DOESN'T REALLY CARE"? That's a much more important behavior choice.

My point is we each do what we can and make our own choices. My choices might not be the same as yours.

Instead of promoting less meat, the best strategy for the environment is to increase the CARING about the issue and give lots of options, not just promote one solution as the DU Vegan crowd does.

[RadiationTherapy]

87. Yes! Increase the caring. Good idea.

Because people who do care adapt; who **DON'T CARE**, don't adapt.

Not really a V-8 moment...

[cobalt1999]

98. Yes, and decrease the judgment

People eating the same or even more meat doesn't mean they DON'T CARE, it means they are making different choices.

[RadiationTherapy]

105. I suppose one could contextualize it like that.

But it is getting pretty serious.

[cobalt1999]

112. Then go after the biggest issue.

Children.

Start telling people that if they have children then they don't care. Don't be half-assed about an issue that is getting pretty serious and advocating one minor choice but ignoring the 800 lb elephant in the room.

Meat eating isn't an issue at all if our population numbers were 1/2 of what they are today. Same with pollution, same with human encroachment on nature, same with CO2 & greenhouse gases.

All of these issues trace back to too many people on the planet.

Advocate ZERO children, full vegan locally grown food only, no home A/C, only public transportation over some "reduce meat" message.

Otherwise you come off as someone who's made one personal half-assed little choice and is trying to push that on the rest of us.

Either stop judging or we'll be judging YOUR choices.

[RadiationTherapy]

113. Radical measures don't sell.

Of course people should care and consider the impacts of these choices. Those who care adapt

[cobalt1999]

115. Judging individual choices doesn't sell (as you can tell from reading this thread).

Your choices may not be the same as another person. Judging other peoples choices based on YOUR one single choice of "reducing meat" isn't selling very well either and never will.

Like I said upstream. If you dare judge others, you won't sell anything, you'll just get judged yourself.

You come off very wishy-washy. You don't even go totally vegetarian, you won't advocate any radical measures, but you are willing to judge others?

[RadiationTherapy]

158. What is judgemental about saying people do not care about an issue

they won't adapt their lives to?

[cobalt1999]

164. You are judging that they don't care and won't adapt based on one choice

It just happens to be the one choice YOU have implemented in your life.

Like has been said multiple times. Someone without children probably cares and has done more adapting than any person, like yourself, who only reduces eating some meat. Your one little choice is nothing in comparison. You have no foundation to say to anyone that "unless they eat less meat, then they don't care".

It's okay if you can't see how judgmental you sound, I've already judged you based on your responses and it's not a favorable outcome. You sound like a person who is avoiding making any real commitment to the issue and you won't even completely implement the one choice you have tried.

You don't care because you obviously refuse to adapt beyond this one small meaningless gesture.

[johnaries]

52. How. DARE. You. ?

How do you propose to know what any of us care about or not care about? You are the type of judgemental ASSHOLE that gives Progressives a bad name.

Progressives and Liberals are supposed to be understanding, not judgemental. You owe an apology to all of us. Or else don't EVER call yourself a Liberal or Progressive - I do not care to be associated with this type of rhetoric.

[RadiationTherapy]

61. Holy shit!

It is simple: If you care, you adapt. When people don't adapt, brag about it, then intentionally increase the behavior they know they should decrease, they do not care. What's the big deal about saying it?

Or are you mad because I mentioned turn signals? You don't have to use yours, we pedestrians and bikers will watch out for you.

[bobbolink]

101. Holy shit! It's simple! Judging others doesn't gain you converts!

Quite simple, isn't it?

But, keep going down that judgmental, elitist road, and we'll continue to pay the price.

[RadiationTherapy]

109. What's to judge? One cares or one doesn't.

It is, indeed, very simple.

[bobbolink]

153. You're absolutely right. There's no judgement there.

:crazy:

Then you wonder why we get the label "elitists".

Enough people have told you that your attitude isn't helping your cause.

You might want to start listening.

Or... you can judge.

Your call.

Edited to say... this whole thread doesn't deserve more attention, so you have the last word. Go ahead and keep defending yourself and your "cause".

Many are trying to clue you in..... methinks this is one huge ego game.

[johnaries]

114. No, I am ANGRY because you're being presumtious and telling

me and others that WE DON'T CARE when we most certainly do!

If you are going to post a flame-bait OP like this, you have to expect to get flamed.

Look, there are many tools and weapons that each of us can use. Each of us has to choose the weapons that work best for us as individuals. Because you have chosen - IMHO a slingshot, don't criticize me for choosing a sword and eschewing the slingshot.

You are being intolerant, plain and simply, and judging others by yourself. You should instead be encouraging others to choose whatever mehods or means suits them best. Not criticizing them for not doing what you are doing.

[Lilith Velkor]

127. Proselytizing vegans are neither progressive nor liberal

They are religious, and want you to convert or be damned.

They don't give a shit about the people killed by capitalism...only the animals. And if you are one of those people who get sick on an all-plant diet, they want you to die. Ask yourself if that sounds "progressive."

[superduperfarleft]

137. You sound insane. n/t

[Lilith Velkor]

140. You look guilty. n/t

[superduperfarleft]

144. Probably because I stole some pens from work today. n/t

[johnaries]

139. It sure sounds like it on this board. I'm inclined to agree. nt

[NeedleCast]

55. Loves me some Purity Tests!

I see meat eating is the purity topic de jour.

[Vickers]

62. Me and my 6 kids had steak last night.

YUMMY!

[RadiationTherapy]

70. Cool. Do you ever consider lessening your meat intake on account of the impact

on the environment? It has a big impact that, if you care, can be reduced by adapting your lifestyle slightly. Either way, enjoy your food.

[Fireweed247]

69. I haven't eaten meat for 20 years and I don't really care

I don't miss it, don't ever think about it, and would never think of telling other people what to do.

What should be a concern to all of us is what they are doing to our food supply in general. Genetically modified foods are everywhere, eaten by almost everyone, and it is put in almost everything. Corn syrup, modified soy...are in almost all of the products in the packaged section of the store. The effects of these products have not been tested, meanwhile childhood obesity, asthma, cancer, diabetes...all on the rise. Our dairy products are full of hormones and antibiotics. So a person tries to eat healthy and natural, the vegetables are fertilized by crap, pesticides all over them and with salmonella to boot. The potatoes and nuts are radiated... I'm afraid to eat anything these days.

[gollygee]

71. What would be more productive would be to actually suggest ways people can reduce how much meat

they eat.

Like, I have this chili recipe I got from my mom ages ago. It called for 1.5 pounds of ground beef. That seemed like a lot, so I only put in 1 pound, and it still tasted good. Recently, I've tried it with half a pound, and I've increased the beans and tomatoes a bit, and it's still just as good. I've tried it without meat and it doesn't taste the same, but I can now feed my family for two nights on half a pound of ground beef.

[RadiationTherapy]

81. Regarding meat: people are exceptionally closed to 'advice', so I avoid it.

If someone does care to lessen their meat intake, your recipe sounds good.

[Fireweed247]

88. great reply!

:applause:

[Starbucks Anarchist]

73. I eat meat and don't drive, so I guess I break even.

I also don't have any children.

[RadiationTherapy]

78. It's not a contest or any other 'test'. just saying that if you do care

adapt. If you do not care, do not adapt.

[Starbucks Anarchist]

82. I'm not going to "adapt" because of some holier-than-thou BS.

And like I said, I don't have a car or children, so my carbon footprint is minimal even with meat-eating included.

[RadiationTherapy]

94. Ok. So you do not CARE about the impact your meat eating has

enough to lessen your consumption. That's what I said in my OP.

[Starbucks Anarchist]

95. And since you're a meat-eater, neither do you.

If you're so gung-ho about "caring," re: eating meat, then you wouldn't eat meat at all, genius.

BTW, do you drive or have children? If you do, your carbon footprint is WAY bigger than mine.

[RadiationTherapy]

100. Promoting 'no meat at all' is a PR disaster; I won't bother with it.

I eat less meat than I used to. I eat less meat than I want to. Because I care.

[Starbucks Anarchist]

102. You don't "care" enough.

If you're going to attack other people for not "caring," you can't half-ass it yourself -- go all the way to prove your purity.

Otherwise, you're just a poseur, and blaming your lack of courage on the issue because it's a "PR disaster" is just intellectually lazy.

[RadiationTherapy]

108. It isn't an attack to state the obvious.

You want to couch it as a purity test; it isn't. It is a matter of fact. Same for drivers. Same for population. Facts are: Our (Western, consumption uber alles) society is overtaxing the resources of the earth. By consuming less, we make a difference. It isn't a competition between individuals; it is living conscious of the intertwining nature of life.

[Starbucks Anarchist]

111. Stating people "don't care" implies it is a purity test.

Particularly when the self-righteous attacker does far less than he can to lessen the harm.

And you never answered a question I had upthread -- do you drive a car? Because that has an impact, too.

[RadiationTherapy]

116. I own a car, but walk/bike mostly.

I don't see anyone advocating 'zero impact'. I just imply that when one cares, one adapts and one does not care, one does not adapt.

Good luck selling radical, zero-impact lifestyles.

[Starbucks Anarchist]

117. I'm not the one selling anything -- I'm asking for a refund from you.

And your carbon footprint is still larger than mine.

[Evoman]

77. I figure the fact that I don't have kids, have a really old car with okay mileage that i never drive

and that I never use AC, have a small apartment, and grow my own vegetables when I can more or less compensates for the habits of a lot of people that just dont eat meat.

Although, I am eating less meat than usual....but its just because its really costly.

I usually get a laugh out of people who have a bigger carbon footprint than me harrass me about my lifestyle. Especially people who have never taken a bus in their life.

[aikoaiko]

83. I just ate two double bacon cheese burgers. What negative impact did that have?

?

[RadiationTherapy]

97. It had an impact.

If you care, you can eat less meat to help.

[Lautremont]

172. It had the negative impact of making me sick just reading about it

I've been known to eat a hamburger, but two of them - with DOUBLE BACON? Gross.

[aikoaiko]

175. I'm a professional.

:hi:

[Two Americas]

84. blaming the people

Blaming the people for social problems is politically reactionary and contradicts every traditional principle and ideal of the Democratic party.

[bobbolink]

90. That's a great way to divide the "US" and "THEM".

Now, what's been accomplished?

:eyes:

[anigbrowl]

99. Didn't we have the weekly vegetarian thread yesterday?

[Marrah_G]

104. There are at least 2 today- and then one retort thread

[KamaAina]

106. For some of us, we *CAN'T MAKE IT HAPPEN*

because the factory farming system is entrenched enough to dominate the supermarkets.

Health food stores, farmer's markets, etc., are all good options -- IF there happens to be one near you, and IF you can drive a car to get to them. Sure, I could ride a bus to the health food (which is run by homophobic Hare Krishnas, I might add) on my day off. Then again, McLoser could pull off the upset. Not gonna happen.

[NeedleCast]

119. How Much is Less?

Your request that people eat less meat assumes that people eat the same amount of meat all the time. Most don't. Sometimes I eat some amount of meat almost every day. Sometimes I got two or three days without any meat. So how much meat in a given period is acceptable?

[donheld]

123. Judgemental much?

[Dr Fate]

126. I love meat and you are right- we should all cut down.

I try to eat free range & organic meats whenever possible as well...

We had free range chicken sausages with breakfast yesterday, for instance...

I love to cook up meat like anyone else, but you have made many good points in this thread- thinking about what you eat & cutting down can only be a good thing.

[RadiationTherapy]

165. Thank you for caring and adapting.

Free range tastes the best!

[RadiationTherapy]

166. Thank you for caring and adapting.

Free range tastes the best!

[Kazak]

129. Why do I eat less meat then?

Why do I ride my bike more often to work now?

And, if it's true that "people" don't really care, then why do I?

[NeedleCast]

130. No offense, but you're being all resonable

that sort of talk doesn't play in these threads.

[RadiationTherapy]

167. Thank you for caring and adapting.

[Lorien]

132. Don't care, are really selfish, poorly educated, and rarely think about the

future. I guess this has always been the case, but at this point our very survival depends on changing that. I wish I could believe that such changes were possible, but if members of DU can't get on board, then what possible chance do we have of preserving human life and the rest of the species on our planet?

[NeedleCast]

142. Such a Naive Argument

The things people will come up with to play upon guilt...

[RadiationTherapy]

157. Exactly. This issue is couched as if we aren't in new territory.

As if the issues around meat consumption are the same as 1967; it isn't. I haven't once mentioned how animals are treated. I haven't once mentioned how factory farms are run. I simply assert that people do not decrease their meat consumption because they do not care. When one cares, one adapts.

[Name removed]

136. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[TexasObserver]

145. Because eating meat is natural for humans, and is a daily goal for most humans.

For most humans, the quest for meat is a daily event, and many fail to get as much as they would like. Even where meat is plentiful, price and opportunity limit the intake.

People don't eat less meat because they don't want to eat less meat. It's not that they don't care. They just don't care about what anti meat activists have to say about eating meat.

[Ikonoklast]

147. I had a vegan tell me that my meat consumption would eventually kill me

Right after that, he lit up a cigarette.

I asked him if he was doing street theater.

[flvegan]

156. Funnier still, because cigarettes aren't vegan.

Not even remotely.

[nosillies]

148. My husband farts a lot -- should we get rid of him?

I'm convinced he puts out as much methane as a full pasture. I mean, he's a good guy who never goes to Wal-Mart and hardly drives, but he pollutes the air, for chrissake, so off with his head!!!!!!

We all have our own ways of making choices that improve our world. Each person's choices are noyfb.

If you feel passionately about something, make helpful suggestions, then back the hell out of the room. Attacking never helps. Nor does trying to persuade people who are quite happy with their personal choices. Rationally provide pertinent facts, then leave it alone. Flame baiting gets what it deserves.

[MindPilot]

150. Because it won't make a damned bit of difference

Look, I've had CFLs--each one supposedly saving umpteen tons of coal a year--in my house for so long they are starting to burn out. And exactly nothing has changed.

The point is these kinds of actions are not effective for much more than satisfiying yourself that you are not making things worse. Which is fine--I do it too.

But this kind of change can really only happen from the production side--in short, people will eat less meat when there is less meat to eat. And in a capitalist world, that kind of production control ain't happening

If you and I and a bunch of others do more/less of whatever, others will just fill the vacumn. There are just too many people in the world for any one group to have much of an effect...which brings us back to the REAL problem.

[nosillies]

151. Ban the Duggars, save the world

So right, MindPilot

[RadiationTherapy]

168. You are right.

But in true "age of aquarius" form, I continue to naively hope that people will care and choose to live differently rather than be forced into it via crisis or legislation/enforcement.

Geezuss Qrighst your post is depressing.

[dysfunctional press]

152. if by that you mean that we don't really care about your santimonious opinion on the matter...

you're 110% correct. :hi:

[Seldona]

155. Why? Because you say so?

Bullshit.

[FM Arouet666]

169. LOL love the can of worms you opened up on yourself.

Looks like a feeding frenzy. Talk about ad hominem attacks.

Your statement is overly general, I am sure that there are many reasons why people choose to ignore the issues you proposed. Not caring is certainly one of them. Some people will not care about an issue unless it directly affects themselves.

I would argue that conservatives are more likely to dismiss your concerns out of apathy than progressives. Hence the venom you have generated with your post. In addition to not caring I would add rationalizing to the list of reasons for apathy. Laziness would be another common attribute.

I wonder, If you posted to the Freepers: "I eat meat and drive what I want and don't care about population density because it suits me, I just don't care what others think or what impact it might have." You would probably get a 100% positive response.

[fulllib]

171. Can't we all just get along?

I am a vegan and proud to be one. However, reading through all of these posts has stressed me out. It's hard to hear how vegans are unhealthy and ONLY care about animals. My choice to be vegan is one of many things that I am doing to protest the treatment of animals, saving the environment and my overall health. I eat local food, only drive when necessary, don't own an AC, recycle, compost, turn off the lights, support small business with my dollars and avoid big business when possible, member of a food co op, and have 1 child who I educate on all aspects of how we can lower our carbon footprint and be a compassionate human at all times. Just to name a few.....

However, I do believe my veganism is a choice and would be a hard sell for many, which is why I would never judge another's choice. There are many factors to one's diet and meat is one of them. I am lucky to live in a place that has local organic food aplenty. I choose to spend less on other areas of my life so that I can afford it. I understand that these costs would be difficult for a family larger than mine. I understand that smaller communities may not have access to all of the things that I have. I understand that culture plays into this as well, not to mention the comfort many people associate with certain foods. I know how annoyed I get when people keep badgering me on how I get my protein, calcium or B 12.

Do what you think is best for your health, your personal footprint, your community and your health.

[cobalt1999]

174. You need to post more often.

Posts like yours will improve the overall opinion of vegans around here.