Proposition Eight... and the pain that it will engender

[nadinbrzezinski]

shows two things.

One... yes we still have many an A-hole in this country, that is not willing to live and let live, Not only that... but many of the folks who voted for this piece of crap don't realize California History, or have forgotten the lessons of the Civil Rights Movement. So while we elected a President from a minority, many of the voters from that same minority voted against another minority. And those who once could not marry anglos (forty years ago) seem to have forgotten that.

Yes, we may celebrate an Obama win, but lord knows we have a lot of work to do... Civil Rights are not for me only....

It shows something else... if a church wants to play in the political arena, fine, pay your entry free. At the very least the Catholic church, the fundies, (who were for this and said such on sermons and insisted people give money) and the Mormon Church should pay taxes on the income on the Yes on Eight Campaign and any subsequent moneys needed to defend this piece of garbage, as you can bet your sweet asses this is going to the courts... yes there is precedent... remember that Latino cannot marry anglo? Guess where it was and where it ended? If you guessed the Constitution you'd be correct, and if you added the courts, you would be very right. I will not be shocked if either this, or Florida's or both end up in the USSC either.

So at this point we will have to insist that ANY denomination that gets involved in overt politics, whether we agree with them or not, be taxed.

So that is the beginning of a battle plan, but realize... many of the folks voting for this ironically had their rights trampled upon a generation or two ago. This I cannot forget.

As a child of a holocaust survivor I know one thing... starting with one hated group, the outsider, quickly moves to other areas of society. So yes I will grieve, but I know I have lots of work to do.... even in a country that is now blue.... as the civil rights message has not fully sunk.

[Phred42]

1. Phuck the "Church" of Latter Day Saints - the Moron's

[nadinbrzezinski]

3. It is not just the Mormons, it is also the Catholic Church

the Knighs of Columbus and fundy churches

They want to play... fine, I inted to write a letter demanding the IRS audits them and demands payment on income over those 70 m

Yes, it is a drop in the bucket for the Catholic church, but they want play... fine pay taxes

And by the way, this stance goes for liberal churches too

We either all play by the same rules... or there is chaos

[Phred42]

7. Fine - PHuck them too

[Frances]

2. I am disappointed too

But as someone who grew up in the segregated South, the election of Obama proves to me that no one should ever stop believing that good change can come.

We will just have to keep working to change people's minds.

I changed my mind about segregation because of Martin Luther King.

I changed my mind about gay rights because of meeting gay people.

If I can become more enlightened, so can 51% of Californians.

[nadinbrzezinski]

4. That is where part of the work comes

but as I said, ironically many of the yes on 8 votes came from exactly that black community

The other from Latinos

[yardwork]

41. That's right. And the Civil Rights Movement has been a long struggle.

Black people didn't give up when Martin Luther King, Jr. was murdered, and I'm not giving up today either. Nor will I allow this to divide me from my fellow Democrats. The struggle continues.

[Serial Mom]

5. Too bad there has to be a fight (again) for what is right (again).

Thought is was understood that nondiscrimination is nondiscrimination!

I hope the passing of this ban will prevail as being unconstitutional.

[nadinbrzezinski]

6. It never ends... EVER

[jeepnstein]

10. Unconstitutional by design.

Yes, of course it will get struck down in court. The proponents of Prop. 8 knew that all along. That way they get to trot this old nag of an issue out of the barn again in four years to mobilize part of the GOP's base. It'll get struck down by Republican judges.

I'm thoroughly convinced that, unfortunately, the whole issue is just being played by the other side with little or no concern about the eventual outcome. They're after some sort of perpetual cultural warfare that benefits Republican candidates.

The last groups that should be working together are the Catholics, Pentecostals, and Mormons. There's just no common ground there at all. That tells me that the folks running the show have a different common cause than religion.

[nadinbrzezinski]

11. I know and why we need to reach out to the people

who voted for this crap

Some I wasn't shocked, but some who went thorugh the civil rights struggle... my lord, maybe we should forget about all advancement on race too :sarcasm:

[Serial Mom]

13. Sort of the same with abortion

It's like they really don't want Roe v Wade overturned, because the wedge issues would be gone and what would they have to fire up their base?

[nadinbrzezinski]

14. bingo

and this will go to the courts

[jeepnstein]

20. You really think so?

Gee, look at all their "wedge issues". They do it all the time.

Who wrote Roe V. Wade? I'll give you a hint, he was a bud of Nixon's.

I feel for the folks who are on the short end of the Prop. 8 circus.

[tjwash]

8. My asshole neighbor had eight "YES ON PROP 8" placards in his lawn.

Mother-fucker's stuck so far in the closet he's probably seeing talking lions.

As much hope as seeing Obama win gives me, the homophobic shitheads that surround me in this fucking state take it all away.

[WarbirdForObama]

9. Nadin, This fight is NOT Over

Prop 8 was the vilest POS to darken the ballot in California.

MANY of us fought against it, and wanted it to fail.

Equal Rights needs to be more than a Happy Slogan, but Reality.

The fight for that isn't over, and it won't be over til Every person, Straight, Gay, Lesbian, etc has Exactly the same rights to Love and Marry whomever they choose.

Prop 8 is a disgrace, and a reminder that we still have a long fight ahead of us.

[nadinbrzezinski]

12. I know... the fight is NEVER over in reality

[lies and propaganda]

15. polygamist peices of shit

raping your children is just fine but two gay people.. the horrors!

Every mormon is now my enemy because they ALL paid for this and they could have stood up against their ridiculous cult sham of a 'church.'

[nadinbrzezinski]

17. It is not every mormom... look under the hood

they have actually lost moderate members

And as I said this includes a good number of the right wing in the Catholic Church as well, and quite a bit of fundies

All these are very strange bed fellows

Now part of the strategy most involve in demanding the IRS gets involved

Another thing... any Cali proposition with OUTSIDE funding, must be thrown from the ballot

We not only had outside funding for this, but also T Boone Pickens was responsible for 10

I am getting used of people OUTSIDE california using our system to their advantage

And that said, who voted for this should also concern you... African Americans and Latino... I went, WTF people? Have you forgotten history? And that you may be next?

[lies and propaganda]

19. im just angry.. I lived in AZ for the last 8 years

where we allowed the atrocities of Colorado City to take place for the last god knows how long.. i have had it with that church and what they have been able to get away with.

[nadinbrzezinski]

24. I agree and intend on writing a letter demanding they be

taxed

I also will demand that outside forces never again are allowed into California politics from my legislators

This is about California, not these powerful hate groups

But I am just saying NOT all Mormons are for this, in fact some are resigning from the Church over this...

We might even see another split

And yes, this is way too much inside baseball... and no I am not a mormon... just that have kept up with them for some time...

[hunter]

36. I would really love to see the right wing religious freaks thrown into a pit together.

There would be blood.

Does that make me a bad person?

:evilgrin:

[Dem_from_Bridgeton]

16. Don't put the major blame on African Americans

Hey I'm black and voted for Obama and yes on prop 8 and I tell you one thing: Don't ever, EVER compare the fight for gay marriage to the fight for civil rights.

[Maven]

18. Well you're a bigot

and you've helped destroy lives.

And many prominent civil rights leaders like Julian Bond and Coretta Scott King disagree with you.

Fuck off troll.

P.S., I don't blame you because you're black. I blame you because you're an ignorant fucking bigot who thinks he has the right to dictate other people's lives. Don't you ever, EVER, belittle the GLBT CIVIL RIGHTS movement asshole.

[jeepnstein]

25. When they get out the...

fire hoses and attack dogs, you'll be in the same boat that blacks in the south were in. There's no comparison to the level of violence, at the hands of the state, they suffered. They faced the full brunt of the state and it's legal system in their struggle.

The problem with this issue is that most folks for whatever reason don't see it as a Civil Rights problem. Perhaps if someone spent more time comparing the rights and benefits of a civil union arrangement to marriage we could see some movement in the right direction? It is a civil rights issue and the key to progress, I believe, is to distance it from the religious trappings of a marriage.

[nadinbrzezinski]

27. So until hoses come out it is not the same?

Oh my.

Let me remind you how the Holocaust started... silly laws like this

The Nuremberg Laws

One of them said that a Jew could not marry a German, or even have sex

It was punishable by death

Yes, this law is in the same vein

[jeepnstein]

35. Perception is reality some times.

I didn't say it was right, I'm just saying that's the way people are looking at the issue. As far as I'm concerned you ought to be free to dispose of your property and personal relationships however you see fit.

The key to getting off this grinder of having some sorry bit of legislation put on the ballot to work up the base is to somehow change the terms of the public dialogue. It's fairly obvious that the marriage angle is a potent tool for opponents of equal rights. Is there a way to completely separate the marriage issue from the civil rights issue? I don't know.

[nadinbrzezinski]

40. It is a matter of civil rights

unless these racists sons of you know what finally decide to remove all marriage functions from the state

Until then IT IS ABOUT CIVIL RIGHTS

And diminishing the rights of one group diminishes us all

[jeepnstein]

45. Yeah,

I remember back when my wife and I were living together. It was a real problem. Medical care was an issue, I owned the house and she didn't, she couldn't receive my pension if I died first, all those things you don't consider.

I'm in favor of some form of civil "marriage" that is not a function of any religion. It would be good for many couples, both straight and gay. If we could come up with some label that wouldn't include the word "marriage" it would be a winner. Myself, I am deeply religious in an Evangelical sort of way but I understand that folks who choose otherwise are equally entitled to society's benefits.

[nadinbrzezinski]

46. And that is the point

The problem is that MARRIAGE as we know it is a CIVIL institution

It has been since the foundation of the country

Now a religious leader has the right to say no to a religious marriage

That is the point

But under our system marriages do have more weight than civil unions

As to the evangelical part I will respect your right to your believes, please respect people's rights to that CIVIL institution called marriage

In our SECULAR country what the justice of the peace issues has NOTHING at all to do with the rabbi, padre, preacher, et al

[jeepnstein]

47. School me a bit.

Obviously, I don't know all the ins and outs of civil unions versus "marriage". I'm not trying to be a jerk although some times I can certainly sound like one. I'd really like to hear a bit about how you perceive the difference between the two. It's hard for anyone to have a civil conversation if one side doesn't know enough about what is being discussed.

I really think you and I are in agreement about the need for everyone to have equal protections under the law. What I'm driving at is a way to guarantee those rights while avoiding the politically charged term "marriage". Political realities being what they are I just don't see how we can use the term "marriage" and not cause a backlash. I'm at a loss to figure out how to get that done while generally pleasing everyone. The political landscape surrounding the issue is so charged it's really hard to discuss it rationally in some circles.

[Maven]

29. Excuse me, at one time GLBTs were imprisoned by the state

in the not too distant past. Our private lives were criminalized.

They're not the same events historically, but the reason for both struggles--institutionalized HATE--is the same.

And it makes no difference who's doing the violence when GLBTs are the #1 targeted group for hate crimes in this country, including murder, and we can't even get hate crimes statutes passed in many states. Not to mention the number of times that law enforcement turns a blind eye.

Marriage is a CIVIL institution and I have no patience today to deal with this same discriminatory bullshit from people like you.

[Le Taz Hot]

37. Two words:

Matthew Shephard. You want to run that shit by me again? :mad:

[jeepnstein]

38. Not state sanctioned.

Of course that didn't matter a bit to the victim. I'm pretty sure there was a law against what they did to him. Now if the police and prosecutors would have given the killers a wink and a nod that would have taken the crime to a whole new level.

I'm more interested in stopping the manipulation of the law to block basic civil rights. Until you see basic rights extended, you'll see some who justify their hate and act accordingly. We either hang together or hang separately.

[yardwork]

42. You have no idea what you're talking about. The Nazis killed gay people, too.

Gay people are being murdered in this country today.

[Lyric]

21. Why? Because it doesn't jive with your bigoted bullshit worldview?

Sorry asshole--reality is what it is.

And now that you've unmasked yourself as just another bigoted piece of shit, enjoy your tombstone.

[redwitch]

22. Shame on you.

Civil rights is civil rights. We will continue to fight this kind of bigotry and you need to get out of the way.

[Le Taz Hot]

23. Excuse me???????

You have GOT to be kidding! This has EVERYTHING to do with Civil Rights! EQUAL PROTECTION UNDER THE LAW!!! What the fuck don't you understand about that??????????? (I can't believe I'm reading this on DU!)

[nadinbrzezinski]

26. Sorry to say this to you

but perhaps we should return to the good ol'd days of separate but equal

After all what just happened set the precedent for exactly that

You diminish YOUR civil rights when you take somebody else's away

I guess the lessons of the Martin didn't truly go in?

Please do read the I Have a Dream Speach AGAIN

I am happy to join with you today in what will go down in history as the greatest demonstration for freedom in the history of our nation.

Five score years ago, a great American, in whose symbolic shadow we stand today, signed the Emancipation Proclamation. This momentous decree came as a great beacon light of hope to millions of Negro slaves who had been seared in the flames of withering injustice. It came as a joyous daybreak to end the long night of their captivity.

But one hundred years later, the Negro still is not free. One hundred years later, the life of the Negro is still sadly crippled by the manacles of segregation and the chains of discrimination. One hundred years later, the Negro lives on a lonely island of poverty in the midst of a vast ocean of material prosperity. One hundred years later, the Negro is still languishing in the corners of American society and finds himself an exile in his own land. So we have come here today to dramatize a shameful condition.


In a sense we have come to our nation's capital to cash a check. When the architects of our republic wrote the magnificent words of the Constitution and the Declaration of Independence, they were signing a promissory note to which every American was to fall heir. This note was a promise that all men, yes, black men as well as white men, would be guaranteed the unalienable rights of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.

It is obvious today that America has defaulted on this promissory note insofar as her citizens of color are concerned. Instead of honoring this sacred obligation, America has given the Negro people a bad check, a check which has come back marked "insufficient funds." But we refuse to believe that the bank of justice is bankrupt. We refuse to believe that there are insufficient funds in the great vaults of opportunity of this nation. So we have come to cash this check — a check that will give us upon demand the riches of freedom and the security of justice. We have also come to this hallowed spot to remind America of the fierce urgency of now. This is no time to engage in the luxury of cooling off or to take the tranquilizing drug of gradualism. Now is the time to make real the promises of democracy. Now is the time to rise from the dark and desolate valley of segregation to the sunlit path of racial justice. Now is the time to lift our nation from the quick sands of racial injustice to the solid rock of brotherhood. Now is the time to make justice a reality for all of God's children.

It would be fatal for the nation to overlook the urgency of the moment. This sweltering summer of the Negro's legitimate discontent will not pass until there is an invigorating autumn of freedom and equality. Nineteen sixty-three is not an end, but a beginning. Those who hope that the Negro needed to blow off steam and will now be content will have a rude awakening if the nation returns to business as usual. There will be neither rest nor tranquility in America until the Negro is granted his citizenship rights. The whirlwinds of revolt will continue to shake the foundations of our nation until the bright day of justice emerges.

But there is something that I must say to my people who stand on the warm threshold which leads into the palace of justice. In the process of gaining our rightful place we must not be guilty of wrongful deeds. Let us not seek to satisfy our thirst for freedom by drinking from the cup of bitterness and hatred.

We must forever conduct our struggle on the high plane of dignity and discipline. We must not allow our creative protest to degenerate into physical violence. Again and again we must rise to the majestic heights of meeting physical force with soul force. The marvelous new militancy which has engulfed the Negro community must not lead us to a distrust of all white people, for many of our white brothers, as evidenced by their presence here today, have come to realize that their destiny is tied up with our destiny. They have come to realize that their freedom is inextricably bound to our freedom. We cannot walk alone.

As we walk, we must make the pledge that we shall always march ahead. We cannot turn back. There are those who are asking the devotees of civil rights, "When will you be satisfied?" We can never be satisfied as long as the Negro is the victim of the unspeakable horrors of police brutality. We can never be satisfied, as long as our bodies, heavy with the fatigue of travel, cannot gain lodging in the motels of the highways and the hotels of the cities. We cannot be satisfied as long as the Negro's basic mobility is from a smaller ghetto to a larger one. We can never be satisfied as long as our children are stripped of their selfhood and robbed of their dignity by signs stating "For Whites Only". We cannot be satisfied as long as a Negro in Mississippi cannot vote and a Negro in New York believes he has nothing for which to vote. No, no, we are not satisfied, and we will not be satisfied until justice rolls down like waters and righteousness like a mighty stream.

I am not unmindful that some of you have come here out of great trials and tribulations. Some of you have come fresh from narrow jail cells. Some of you have come from areas where your quest for freedom left you battered by the storms of persecution and staggered by the winds of police brutality. You have been the veterans of creative suffering. Continue to work with the faith that unearned suffering is redemptive.

Go back to Mississippi, go back to Alabama, go back to South Carolina, go back to Georgia, go back to Louisiana, go back to the slums and ghettos of our northern cities, knowing that somehow this situation can and will be changed. Let us not wallow in the valley of despair.

I say to you today, my friends, so even though we face the difficulties of today and tomorrow, I still have a dream. It is a dream deeply rooted in the American dream.

I have a dream that one day this nation will rise up and live out the true meaning of its creed: "We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal."

I have a dream that one day on the red hills of Georgia the sons of former slaves and the sons of former slave owners will be able to sit down together at the table of brotherhood.

I have a dream that one day even the state of Mississippi, a state sweltering with the heat of injustice, sweltering with the heat of oppression, will be transformed into an oasis of freedom and justice.

I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their character.

I have a dream today.

I have a dream that one day, down in Alabama, with its vicious racists, with its governor having his lips dripping with the words of interposition and nullification; one day right there in Alabama, little black boys and black girls will be able to join hands with little white boys and white girls as sisters and brothers.

I have a dream today.

I have a dream that one day every valley shall be exalted, every hill and mountain shall be made low, the rough places will be made plain, and the crooked places will be made straight, and the glory of the Lord shall be revealed, and all flesh shall see it together.

This is our hope. This is the faith that I go back to the South with. With this faith we will be able to hew out of the mountain of despair a stone of hope. With this faith we will be able to transform the jangling discords of our nation into a beautiful symphony of brotherhood. With this faith we will be able to work together, to pray together, to struggle together, to go to jail together, to stand up for freedom together, knowing that we will be free one day.

This will be the day when all of God's children will be able to sing with a new meaning, "My country, 'tis of thee, sweet land of liberty, of thee I sing. Land where my fathers died, land of the pilgrim's pride, from every mountainside, let freedom ring."

And if America is to be a great nation this must become true. So let freedom ring from the prodigious hilltops of New Hampshire. Let freedom ring from the mighty mountains of New York. Let freedom ring from the heightening Alleghenies of Pennsylvania!

Let freedom ring from the snowcapped Rockies of Colorado!

Let freedom ring from the curvaceous slopes of California!

But not only that; let freedom ring from Stone Mountain of Georgia!

Let freedom ring from Lookout Mountain of Tennessee!

Let freedom ring from every hill and molehill of Mississippi. From every mountainside, let freedom ring.

And when this happens, when we allow freedom to ring, when we let it ring from every village and every hamlet, from every state and every city, we will be able to speed up that day when all of God's children, black men and white men, Jews and Gentiles, Protestants and Catholics, will be able to join hands and sing in the words of the old Negro spiritual, "Free at last! free at last! thank God Almighty, we are free at last!"

[TexasObserver]

28. The fight for gay marriage IS a fight for civil rights.

[Bluenorthwest]

30. Your prejudice and ignorance

Compete for attention. Look up this man, Bayard Rustin, and then go fuck your bigoted self if you still don't see the light.

[cboy4]

33. Bi-GOTT

With a capital B.

You should be ashamed of yourself. :puke:

[Starbucks Anarchist]

34. Then you're half an asshole.

:eyes:

[kevinbgoode]

39. How dare you project what MY struggle has been in this country?

And then have the audacity to vote to amend a Constitution to remove my rights because it isn't the "same fight?"

Excuse me - but as long as you seem to think the right of marriage is an INDIVIDUAL, PERSONAL right reserved only for heterosexuals (no matter how irresponsible they may be) and attach thousands of special rights sanctioned by the state to that fact, then you have no comprehension of any fight for civil rights.

And don't use your skin color as an excuse to claim special victimhood. I highly doubt you were one of the people denied access to a diner, yet you claim that struggle as yours. I've had to stand by while people who loved each other had their property and their goddamned burial rights taken away from them simply because the STATE did not recognize them as "married." I've had to see people denied access to hospital visitation, even access to their partner's FUNERAL, because of your belief in special rights laws for heterosexuals only.

I have news for you - those who are legally "single" in this country are rapidly getting fed up with being treated as wards of the goddamn State in terms of securing our property rights. We are entitled as anyone else to create families that are protected by the laws of our government - and we don't need your goddamned approval.

[itsrobert]

43. Why not?

Because you're a bigot?

[cboy4]

31. The IRS should be all over these exempt religious groups

and churches.

And they should start today.

[Bluenorthwest]

32. Thanks for

this post, nadinbrazinsky.

[nadinbrzezinski]

44. An update on the mood

today I had to go get a software product at a retailer

While waiting for them to open their doors an AA and a hispanic where chewing the fat over how happy they were... I mean the gay cannot marry and families are now safe from the infection :puke:

I cannot abide by this so I confronted them

I told the AA... you know perhaps we should go back to separate but equal

He had that look of horror in his face.... you don't understand (like somebody on this thread did as well)

Yes, yes I do... so who's next in this bullshit? YOU?

The Latino gal, in her early 20s tells me... what about the kids?

Well, FORTY years ago my hubby and I could not marry, you see I am Latina and he is Anglo.. IT WAS in the Constitution. Wanna go back to those days?

Then this AA says... not the same as civil rights....

I reminded him that many whites, marched side by side with HIS folks in the South even when it was not popular. THe NG and the 101st had to deploy in the south to ensure that Separate but Equal were actually thrown out after Brown and Board of Education. He is in his early 20s as well... then I told him... go read the speeches from Doctor King... what happened last night is almost miracolous, but you folks have missed the actual lessons from THAT painful history... bigotry is bigotry is bigotry...

They lost all kinds of color as it sank in

So she says but my Padre....

Should have said squat, something about separation of Church and State, but since they have... when are they gonna start paying taxes?

The struggle starts today... all over again...