Prop8: the battle has just begun

[noiretextatique]

please remember that other propositions have been ruled unconstitutional in the past.
Gloria Allred has already filed suit on behalf of a lesbian couple, and the SF city attorney is also filing a suit.

last night, i celebrated Obama's victory in a bar full of african-american LBGT folks. it was a beautiful time, but of course it was marred by the news the Prop. 8 was winning.

however, let's try to remain optimistic because the court has already ruled in our favor. clearly, we have to rely on the courts to secure our rights, as did my parents and their parents and their parents.

sorry bigots...this ain't over yet.

[soleft]

1. absolutely

:hi:

What with all the old time DUers popping up, I was hoping you'd be among them.

[noiretextatique]

2. hey soleft!!!!

:hi: nice to see you. the bigots will not prevail...the courts will rule in our favor.

[Brewman_Jax]

3. Far from over

the courts will have to provide sanity, for rights should not be abridged.

[ellius101]

4. Go after the churches and their tax exempt status

Why should they get tax exempt status if they're going to get involved in politics????

[noiretextatique]

5. i was never a big proponent of marriage

never wanted to get married myself until recently. but i will not accept the tyranny of a fearful and ignorant majority. whatever it takes to defeat these bigots...that's what we need to do.

[tjwash]

6. The lawsuit was just filed a half an hour ago. It's posted in LBN

Lawsuit Challenging Prop 8 Filed

[RoyGBiv]

7. That's what I'm talking about ...

I love it when a plan gets put out there.

Being pissed and/or sad is understandable, expected. It's also useless unless it that energy is funneled into action.

I am exceptionally happy to learn that Allred has already filed suit. No moss on her.

[noiretextatique]

10. gloria's all over this

i am confident that proposition 8 will be ruled unconstitutional.

[EFerrari]

8. Okay.

K&R

[Hell Hath No Fury]

9. Damn straight!

Good to see you around these parts again! :hi: I was watching the results with a gay couple whose wedding I went to just a month or so ago -- it was a really hard night for us, even with Obama's win.

The quest for full equality in our country has always been a series of battles, with wins and loses until the final (hopefully) victory. Yee gads, Roe passed back in what, '73?, and we are still fighting that battle, even here in CA. :mad:

The passage of Prop. 8 is just the latest battle for full civil rights for GLBT citizens. We will get there, eventually, despite the religious bigots who would stop us.

:hug:

[noiretextatique]

12. hiya hell

:hi: long time no see :hug:

i am so tired of the religionists trying to limit our rights because of their beliefs. don't like abortion? don't fucking have one :grr: don't like gay marriage? don't fucking marry a gay person :grr:
it's really quite simple...keep your religious beliefs the FUCK out of my life :grr:
i am confident the court will declare this unconsitutional.

but even this didn't take away from the utter joy i felt when the election was called for obama. people were screaming and crying and dancing and hugging...i have never seen anything like it in my life.
YES WE CAN defeat Prop 8!!!!!!

[underseasurveyor]

11. Damn Right it ain't over

No way, no how :-)

I know we can overturn this abomination.

[JerseygirlCT]

13. Does someone have the information on the legal

ramifications of all this? I don't understand the CA system at all. From what I read, this proposition puts it into the state constitution?

If that's the case, where do you take a legal fight?

Anyone understand this?

[noiretextatique]

14. prop 8 is an attempt to amend the state constitution

ELIMINATES RIGHT OF SAME–SEX COUPLES TO MARRY. INITIATIVE CONSTITUTIONAL AMENDMENT.

* Changes the California Constitution to eliminate the right of same-sex couples to marry in California.
* Provides that only marriage between a man and a woman is valid or recognized in California.

Summary of Legislative Analyst’s Estimate of Net State and Local Government Fiscal Impact:

* Over the next few years, potential revenue loss, mainly from sales taxes, totaling in the several tens of millions of dollars, to state and local governments.
* In the long run, likely little fiscal impact on state and local governments.

if a proposed amendment is declared unconstitutional, it will not amend the constitution.

here's what happened with another bigoted proposition in CA that never became law
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proposition_187

California Proposition 187 was a 1994 ballot initiative designed to deny illegal immigrants social services, health care, and public education. It was introduced by assemblyman Dick Mountjoy (Republican from Monrovia, California) as the Save Our State initiative. A number of other organizations were involved in bringing it to the voters. It passed with 58.8% of the vote,<1> but was overturned by a federal court. The measure prompted support for similar bills in Illinois, Florida, New York and Texas.<1>

Proposition 187 included several additions to the law, falling into two categories.

* All law enforcement agents who suspect that a person who has been arrested is in violation of immigration laws must investigate the detainee's immigration status, and if they find evidence of illegality they must report it to the attorney general of California, and to the federal Immigration and Naturalization Service (INS). Local governments are prohibited from doing anything to impair the fulfillment of this requirement. The attorney general must keep records on all such cases and make them available to any other government entity that wishes to inspect them.
* No one may receive public benefits until they have proven their legal right to reside in the country. If anyone applies for benefits and is suspected by government agents of being illegal, those agents must report in writing to the enforcement authorities. Emergency medical care is exempted as required by federal law but all other medical benefits have the same test as above. Primary and secondary education is explicitly included.

[JerseygirlCT]

15. So the next stop is federal court?

which one?

[noiretextatique]

16. the california supreme court

amendments cannot become law if the court rules they violate the constitution. the court has already ruled on this issue, so this will not become law. i think the bigots know that, but perhaps this was a test for battles in other states. i am very confident the court will rule this amendment unconstitutional.

[justiceischeap]

18. This is really good news and I have a theory on why this was done

It may be kind of tinfoily but I think the Mormon church is trying to gain equal status within the crazy fundy community. They don't want to be seen as the crazy "magic underpants with their own planet" people. It's a way to legitimize their religion within the wingnut GOP.

That said, I was wondering how they could pass an amendment to the state constitution that was already ruled unconstitutional. I didn't know why the people could overrule the Supreme Court.

[noiretextatique]

21. they cannot overrule the supreme court

and the court has been more than clear on this issue.

this is what the court said in may when they struck down the gay marriage ban:

The majority opinion, by Chief Justice Ronald M. George, declared that any law that discriminates on the basis of sexual orientation will from this point on be constitutionally suspect in California in the same way as laws that discriminate by race or gender, making the state's high court the first in the nation to adopt such a stringent standard.

:tinfoilhat: i think your theory is quite plausible.

[RufusTFirefly]

24. I've never understood why a simple majority can amend the state's Constitution

On a federal level, an amendment requires two-thirds of both houses and three-quarters of the states. In short, it isn't easy. (Just ask proponents of the Equal Rights Amendment, who came close but not close enough.)

It's too late to question this, I suppose, but when it comes to actually amending the state's Constitution, it seems that the requirements should be stricter.

The Federal Bill of Rights, among other things, guards against the "tyranny of the majority." And yet it seems as though our California propositions allow exactly this sort of tyranny to proceed.

[JerseygirlCT]

29. I've always thought the whole proposition system in CA is

strange. Thus my original question. I don't get it.

We escaped stepping into such a system here in CT on Tuesday, thank goodness. Even the first step in that direction was rejected, which is good.

As you say, changing a constitution should never be easy, and certainly not something to be done with a simple majority.

Hey! Maybe CA needs a new proposition for that: no proposition may amend the constitution with a simple majority.

[Viking12]

31. Prop 187 was not a Constitutional Amendment

The CA Supreme Court has already ruled that Prop 8 was within the allowable realm of Constitutional changes subject to referendum. Frustrating as it is, unless opponents of Prop 8 can demonstrate the process was fundamentally flawed, the Constitution will be amended.

[nadinbrzezinski]

17. This will end up in front of the USSC

and the court will be bluer by the time it does.

It could have the same effect as roe v wade....

I can hope

[noiretextatique]

19. i am sure it will eventually get to scotus

however, i believe the ca supreme court will rule that prop 8 violates the CA constitution. in may, the court struck down the state's ban on gay marriage thusly:

"The majority opinion, by Chief Justice Ronald M. George, declared that any law that discriminates on the basis of sexual orientation will from this point on be constitutionally suspect in California in the same way as laws that discriminate by race or gender, making the state's high court the first in the nation to adopt such a stringent standard."
http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-gaymarriage16-2008may16,0,6182317.story

if this court has any integrity whatsoever, there is NO WAY prop 8 can become law.

[nadinbrzezinski]

22. I know it did and I am hoping

remember though the SAME bullshit was passed in Florida

So either one or both will go all the way to the USSC

Ah the wheels of justice take time to move... so time to replace some of the justices

[tavalon]

26. That is fabulous!

That said, I wish we had not even bothered to fight it because a lot of money was spent and it won't even become law anyways (thank God!).

[JerseygirlCT]

20. I think it will have to, eventually

as more states recognize marriage equality and as people demand their rights to have their marriages recognized across state lines...

I really think it's a fundamental legal question of rights, and there just isn't a leg to stand on, legally. Why in a civic sense, could there possibly be any reason for the state to deny people this right? And without a good reason, the state can't deny them the right.

[tavalon]

23. Good! This is one straight person who is furious with every lowlife bigot

who voted for that soulless piece of crap proposition. I have a proposition for everyone who voted for it, "fuck off and die.".

[Hissyspit]

25. No, it is not over.

Hang in there, everyone.

[1]

27. everyone needs to relax...

voters don't get to decide these issues. the courts get to decide these issues.

calm the fuck down.

ok. tomorrow i am going to introduce the following proposition 9 for the next general election:

"only slavery between a master and a slave is valid or recognized in california."

and 50+% of the voters go for it.

woah! that would suck. would it ever get to be law?

nope.

never.

it would be stopped almost immediately.


so stop with this hand wringing and kvetching...

its not going to happen!

[Zhade]

28. NOT OVER YET

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x4386589

[noiretextatique]

30. thanks for the link...some friends and i were talking about this last night

there's a good chance that this POS will still be rejected by the voters.

[robinlynne]

32. OR we could wait to concede until the votes are counted !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!