Is anyone here still anti-war?

[seemslikeadream]

[Smith_3]

1. Yup.

My views on war have remained unchanged for the last ten years.

[seemslikeadream]

3. Will you still post your views here or........

are you afraid you will be labeled?

[Smith_3]

12. Not afraid of being labeled. Just tired of having the same arguments.

I believe a person who chooses to take part in a war is fully responsible for all the consequences. And that bad orders which were given are no excuse for anything. But that is just me. Most people here view it differently. They choose to keep the myth going that the act of signing up for the armed forces of a country is inherently a noble deed, regardless of the goals that the country is striving towards. I think this mindset is major foolishness and part of the reason why america is in such deep shit.

[cosmik debris]

22. Well Said. And I agree. n/t

[Dont_Bogart_the_Pretzel]

84. I also agree with you.

[Arugula Latte]

86. Yep -- Joining the military doesn't make someone a "hero."

It makes someone a pawn in the agenda of U.S. Big Business.

[Orsino]

44. Anti-war. Every war.

But especially imperialist wars of conquest started under false pretenses.

[harun]

2. I am anti-illegal occupation. I still think only Congress can declare war.

Call me old fashioned.

[babylonsister]

4. Yes, and I won't hesitate to express my views. nt

[thereismore]

5. Unless we are attacked, yep. nt

[unhappycamper]

6. My sigline sez it all.

Yup.

[seemslikeadream]

Are we able to critize ANYONE, ANY TIME about how the war is being handled?

[unhappycamper]

35. I certainly hope so.

Last year the Veterans For Peace were holding house parties to fund the Winter Solder hearings in DC. Here's a link to WS in case you missed it.

At one of those parties in the Boston area, I had the distinct privilege of picking up and dropping off Howard Zinn. Howard is a member of my VFP chapter, but I had never spoken directly with him before.

One the way back to his home he asked me "What do you think of the occupations?" I told him I thought the Iraq invasion and occupation was illegal. He asked me "What do you think of the Afghanistan occupation?" I told him "I'm not sure. We were attacked on 911 by folks supported by the Taliban."

I've been thinking about that conversation now for almost a year.

Can one win an occupation? Only if you kill off all the locals.

Is killing all the locals a good thing? We tried it in Nam and it didn't work.

Fast forward to now. We're spending around $12 billion a month to keep these occupations going. Both occupations are going down the shitter.

Were Howard to ask me that question again I would say "The Iraq and Afghanistan occupations are wrong and should be ended immediately." And that's what I working towards.

[seemslikeadream]

37. Thank you for the reply

and I will continue to try and end the war, critizing anyone that appears not to have that on their agenda. I only hope that will be alright here.

[unhappycamper]

42. I completely agree with you, but I would caution you to be civil.

If you take a look at the detailed DU rules, there's one and only one sentence highlighted. We take it pretty seriously around here.

[seemslikeadream]

56. I will definitely try my very best not to let certain people upset me

any more.

[Beam Me Up]

92. "We were attacked on 911 by folks supported by the Taliban."

Were we?

Where is the proof of that? Or are you someone who continues to accept this version of 9/11 put forward by arguably the most dishonest, corrupt and treasonous administration this country has ever seen? -- All in the face of considerable evidence that the truth of 9/11 is quite different from what we've been sold?

[Sebastian Doyle]

100. Even IF you take the ridiculous Bush Crime Family "official story " at face value (and I don't)

When the fuck did the Taliban and Al Qaeda become interchangeable terms anyway?

[Beam Me Up]

111. Exactly. If my memory serves, the Taliban offered to hand over Bin Laden IF

the US provided them with proof that he was responsible for 9/11. The Bush administration dismissed the need for evidence beyond that supplied by the FBI immediately following the attacks -- or put forth the ruse that to present such evidence would compromise our national security -- and has continued to do so ever since. Meanwhile, to my knowledge, the FBI has not retracted their 2006 statement that they "http://www.teamliberty.net/id267.html">have no hard evidence" tying Bin Laden to 9/11.

[Sebastian Doyle]

116. The Taliban did two things "wrong" in the eyes of the Bush Crime Family

And it had nothing to do with being repressive religious fanatics who make women wear burqas

1) They burnt up the opium crops - a main source of Bush Crime Family income (Old man Bush got the nickname "Poppy" for a reason) Oddly enough, opium production in Afghanistan is doing better than ever now. Go figure :eyes:

2) They signed a deal to build an oil and natural gas pipeline across Afghanistan in 1997, and had failed to deliver, despite huge amounts of money being funneled into Mullah Omar and his pals. The deal was signed in Texas when Chimp was governor, BTW.

[Beam Me Up]

117. Right you are again. So we're proceeding with a war there why, exactly? n/t

[Sebastian Doyle]

143. Damned if I know

I'll admit, I bought into the "Osama is hiding out there" spin originally. But when he apparently escaped (or was killed, depending on which story you believe )in December 2001, I failed to find an excuse after that.

[Art_from_Ark]

163. I believe I read that it was an Argentine company that ended up

getting the pipeline contract.

[ikojo]

43. I hope that DU does not become a cheerleading

squad for Obama just because he's a Democrat. He needs to be held accountable for his decisions and inactions.

[here_is_to_hope]

76. I think the majority of us hold that ideal.

And my single issue is ending the occupation.
I know its going to be tough but I voted Obama/Biden because I KNOW they can handle it.

[shadowknows69]

81. That's the plan

[bluestateguy]

7. I am against the Iraq War, if that is what you mean

but I think we have the right to defend ourselves if we are attacked.

[seemslikeadream]

13. What about the war in Afghanistan?

[arcadian]

15. Is that code for you have no problem with Afghanistan?

n/t

[wtmusic]

21. Afghanistan started out as a legit defensive action

but there is a reasonable argument to be made that we let bin Laden escape. He is worth more to us alive and free than dead, and our initial justification turned into another occupation and nation-building attempt which will ultimately fail.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

78. No, it didn't.

Unless you're in favor of invading Pakistan.

Are you in favor of invading Pakistan?

[wtmusic]

91. We don't have concrete evidence of al Qaeda training camps in Pakistan

There is speculation that OBL is hiding out there, but that's all it is.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

96. We've got as much evidence he's in Pakistan as he was in Afghanistan.

Funny to watch you spin, though.

[wtmusic]

98. Training camps for OBL's org

in Afghanistan. Confirmed and destroyed. No spin.

[Pastiche423]

127. When was it proven that OBL had anything to do w/911?

I can not believe I missed seeing that important information.

[wtmusic]

133. When was it proven OBL even exists?

Can YOU prove it? :tinfoilhat:

[Pastiche423]

137. OBL no longer exists

He died December 26, 2001.

When was it proven that he did 9/11?

[wtmusic]

138. Um, yeah.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topics&forum=125

[Pastiche423]

140. How's that denial working for you?

[FedUpWithIt All]

8. I am certainly anti-THIS-war. n/t

[arcadian]

9. I am against all U.S. imperialist wars. Looks like things are heating up in Afghanistan

November 3, 2008
Soldier Sgt. Daniel W. Wallace, 27, of Dry Ridge, Ky., died Oct. 31 in Badin Kheyl, Afghanistan, of wounds suffered when insurgents attacked his unit using small arms fire. He was assigned to the 201st Engineer Battalion, Kentucky Army National Guard in Cynthiana, Ky.

Soldier Pfc. Bradley S. Coleman, 24, of Martinsville, Va., died Oct. 29 at Qayyarah Airfield, Iraq, of injuries sustained from a non-combat related incident. He was assigned to the 51st Transportation Company, Mannheim, Germany.

October 31, 2008

Soldier Sgt. Scott J. Metcalf, 36, of Framingham, Mass., died Oct. 29, in Balad, Iraq, of injuries sustained from a non-combat related incident. He was assigned to the 1st Squadron, 32nd Cavalry Regiment, 1st Brigade Combat Team, 101st Airborne Division, Fort Campbell, Ky.

October 29, 2008

Marine 1st Lt. Trevor J. Yurista, 32, of Pleasant Valley, N.Y., died Oct. 27 while supporting combat operations in Helmand province, Afghanistan. He was assigned to 5th Marine Regiment, 1st Marine Division, I Marine Expeditionary Force, Camp Pendleton, Calif.

October 28, 2008

Two soldiers died Oct. 27 in Baghlan, Afghanistan, of wounds suffered when a suicide bomber detonated explosives as they were preparing to enter a building:

Sgt. Nicholas A. Casey, 22, of Canton, Ohio, who was assigned to the 3rd Battalion, 7th Special Forces Group (Airborne), Fort Bragg, N.C.

Sgt. Kevin D. Grieco, 35, of Bartlett, Ill., who was assigned to the 2nd Battalion, 122nd Field Artillery, Illinois Army National Guard, Sycamore, Ill.

October 26, 2008

Soldier Pfc. Cody J. Eggleston, 21, of Eugene, Ore., died Oct. 24 at the National in Bethesda, Maryland, of wounds suffered on October 16 in Baqubah, Iraq, when he received indirect fire. He was assigned to the 1st Battalion, 5th Infantry Regiment, 1st Brigade Combat Team, 25th Infantry Division, Fort Wainwright, Alaska.

October 24, 2008

Airman Staff Sgt. Brian P. Hause, 29, of Stoystown, Pa., died Oct. 23 of non-combat related medical causes at Balad Air Base, Iraq. He was assigned to the 20th Equipment Maintenance Squadron, Shaw Air Force Base, S.C.

Marine Cpl. Adrian Robles, 21, of Scottsbluff, Neb., died Oct. 22 while supporting combat operations in Helmand province, Afghanistan. He was assigned to 2nd Battalion, 7th Marine Regiment, 1st Marine Division, I Marine Expeditionary Force, Twentynine Palms, Calif.

Marine Lance Cpl. San Sim, 23, of Santa Ana, Calif., died Oct. 22 while supporting combat operations in Helmand province, Afghanistan. He was assigned to 1st Battalion, 7th Marines, 1st Marine Division, I Marine Expeditionary Force, Twentynine Palms, Calif.

Soldier Spc. Deon L. Taylor, 30, of Bronx, N.Y., died Oct. 22 in Bela Beluk, Afghanistan, of wounds suffered when his vehicle encountered an improvised explosive device. He was assigned to the 27th Infantry Brigade Combat Team, New York Army National Guard, Syracuse, N.Y.

October 23, 2008

Marine Lance Cpl. Stacy A. Dryden, 22, of North Canton, Ohio, died Oct. 19 from injuries sustained in a non-hostile incident in Anbar province, Iraq. She was assigned to 1st Supply Battalion, 1st Marine Logistics Group, Camp Pendleton, Calif.

October 21, 2008

Soldier Pfc. Heath K. Pickard, 21, of Palestine, Texas, died Oct. 16 in Balad, Iraq, of wounds suffered when he received indirect fire in Baquaba, Iraq. He was assigned to the 1st Battalion, 5th Infantry Regiment, 1st Brigade Combat Team, 25th Infantry Division, Fort Wainwright, Alaska.

Soldier Capt. Robert D. Lindenau, 39, of Camano Island, Wash., died Oct. 20 in Charbagh, Afghanistan, of wounds suffered when a rocket-propelled grenade struck his vehicle. He was assigned to the 91st Civil Affairs Battalion, 95th Civil Affairs Brigade (Airborne), Fort Bragg, N.C.

Soldier Spc. Justin A. Saint, 22, of Albertville, Ala., died Oct. 15 in Baghdad, Iraq, of injuries sustained in a non-combat related incident. He was assigned to the Special Troops Battalion, XVIII Airborne Corps, Fort Bragg, N.C.

October 20, 2008

Soldier Sgt. Federico G. Borjas, 33, of San Diego, Calif., died Oct. 16 in Bermel District Center, Afghanistan, of wounds suffered from small arms fire during a dismounted patrol. He was assigned to 416th Civil Affairs Battalion, 351st Civil Affairs Command, San Diego, Calif.

October 17, 2008

Soldier Sgt. John M. Penich, 25, of Beach Park, Ill., died Oct. 16 in Karangol Village, Afghanistan, of wounds suffered from indirect fire. He was assigned to the 1st Battalion, 26th Infantry Regiment, 3rd Brigade Combat Team, 1st Infantry Division, Fort Hood, Texas.

October 16, 2008

Three soldiers died Oct. 14 in Qazi Bandeh, Afghanistan, of wounds suffered when their vehicle encountered an improvised explosive device:

Spc. Cory J. Bertrand, 18, of Center, Texas

Spc. Stephen R. Fortunato, 25, of Danvers, Mass.

Sgt. Preston R. Medley, 23, of Baker, Fla.

They were assigned to the 1st Battalion, 26th Infantry Regiment, 3rd Brigade Combat Team, 1st Infantry Division, Fort Hood, Texas

Soldier Pfc. Christopher A. McCraw, 23, of Columbia, Miss., died Oct. 14 in Baghdad, Iraq, of wounds suffered when he encountered small arms fire while on dismounted patrol in Nasar Wa Salam. He was assigned to the 1st Battalion, 21st Infantry Regiment, 2nd Brigade, 25th Infantry Division, Schofield Barracks, Hawaii.

October 15, 2008

Soldier Pfc. Scott G. Dimond, 39, of Franklin, N.H., died Oct. 13 in Kandahar, Afghanistan, of wounds suffered when his vehicle struck an IED and his patrol was engaged in a small arms fire attack. He was assigned to the 3rd Battalion, 172nd Infantry Regiment (Mountain), New Hampshire Army National Guard, Milford, N.H.

Soldier Sgt. Michael K. Clark, 24, of Sacramento, Calif., died Oct. 7 in Mosul, Iraq, of wounds suffered when he encountered small arms fire while on dismounted patrol. He was assigned to the 1st Battalion, 8th Infantry Regiment, 3rd Brigade Combat Team, 4th Infantry Division, Fort Carson, Colo.

October 14, 2008

Soldier Spc. Geoffrey G. Johnson, 28, of Lubbock, Texas, died on Oct. 12 of injuries sustained from a non-combat related incident in Baghdad, Iraq. He was assigned to Headquarters and Headquarters Company, Division Special Troops Battalion, 4th Infantry Division, Fort Hood, Texas.

Soldier Cpl. Reuben M. Fernandez III, 22, of Abilene, Texas, died on Oct. 11 of wounds sustained when his vehicle struck an improvised explosive device in Majar Al Kabir, Iraq. He was assigned to the 2nd Squadron, 7th Cavalry Regiment, 4th Brigade Combat Team, 1st Cavalry Division, Fort Hood, Texas.

October 10, 2008

Marine Cpl. Jason A. Karella, 20, of Anchorage, Alaska, died Oct. 9 while supporting combat operations in Farah province, Afghanistan. He was assigned to the 2nd Battalion, 7th Marine Regiment, 1st Marine Division, I Marine Expeditionary Force, Twentynine Palms, Calif.

October 7, 2008

Marine Col. Michael R. Stahlman, 45, of Chevy Chase, Md., died Oct. 5 from injuries sustained in a July 31 non-hostile incident in Anbar province, Iraq. He was assigned to Headquarters Battalion, Marine Corps Air Ground Combat Center, Twentynine Palms, Calif.

October 6, 2008

Soldier Sgt. William P. Rudd, 27, of Madisonville, Ky., died Oct. 5 of wounds suffered from enemy small arms fire while on a combat patrol in Mosul, Iraq. He was assigned to the 3rd Battalion, 75th Ranger Regiment, Fort Benning, Ga.

Soldier Spc. Jason E. von Zerneck, 33, of Charlotte, N.C., died on Oct. 2 of injuries sustained from a vehicle incident in Qara Bagh Karez, Afghanistan. He was assigned to the 2d Squadron, 101st Cavalry Regiment, New York Army National Guard, Jamestown, N.Y.

Soldier Pfc. Tavarus D. Setzler, 23, of Jacksonville, Fla., died Oct. 2 of wounds sustained when his vehicle struck an improvised explosive device in Majar al Kabir, Iraq. He was assigned to the 2d Squadron, 7th Cavalry Regiment, 4th Brigade Combat Team, 4th Infantry Division, Fort Hood, Texas.

October 3, 2008

Soldier Pfc. Christopher A. Bartkiewicz, 25, of Dunfermline, Ill., died Sept. 30 in Baghdad, Iraq, of wounds sustained when insurgents attacked his dismounted patrol using small arms fire. He was assigned to the 2nd Battalion, 6th Infantry Regiment, 2nd Brigade Combat Team, 1st Armored Division, Baumholder, Germany.

October 1, 2008

Three soldiers died Sept. 29 in Yakhchal, Afghanistan, from wounds suffered when their vehicle encountered an improvised explosive device during mounted operations. They were assigned to the 1st Battalion, 7th Special Forces Group, Fort Bragg, N.C.:

Capt. Richard G. Cliff Jr., 29, of Mount Pleasant, S.C.

Sgt. 1st Class Jamie S. Nicholas, 32, of Maysel, W.Va.

Sgt. 1st Class Gary J. Vasquez, 33, of Round Lake, Ill.

Soldier Pfc. Christopher T. Fox, 21, of Memphis, Tenn., died Sept. 29 in Adhamiyah, Iraq, of wounds suffered when he encountered small arms fire while on patrol. He was assigned to the 1st Battalion, 68th Armor Regiment, 3rd Brigade Combat Team, 4th Infantry Division, Fort Carson, Colo.

[seemslikeadream]

16. Thank you

[Greyhound]

10. Vehemently. n/t

[timtom]

28. Hey! I just answered the same way below.

(Except mine had text.)

[proud2BlibKansan]

11. yes

[ipfilter]

14. I cried the day we invaded Iraq

and I was appalled at the term "Shock and Awe".

[ixion]

17. Yep, anti-war, anti-illegal invasion...

t'was ever thus.

[AllyCat]

18. Oh yeah. That's what drove me to pack up my kids and knock on doors,

drop lit, etc. I could not imagine my beautiful children or anyone else's going off to the Bush/McCain wars.

Obama wasn't my first or even second choice in the primaries, because I don't think his stand on ending the war is anywhere near strong enough, but ANY of our Dem candidates would have been better than McCain.

[seemslikeadream]

20. Do you feel comfortable continuing to critize the way the war is being handled?

[RaleighNCDUer]

33. Obama is not president yet.

I prefer to withhold criticism of his handling of the war until he is actually handling the war.

Did his election suddenly change the way the war is being handled?

[seemslikeadream]

38. Did his election suddenly change the way the war is being handled?

No but reading DU it seems criticism will not be allowed in the future, by some people here.

[AllyCat]

50. Yup. The war was really my number one issue this election cycle

That's why I supported Kucinich because I felt he was one of the few that would have ended the war without conditions.

It would never have happened with McCain, but we have at least a fighting chance with Obama and I intend to see what he plans to do and then what he does while fighting all the while for this to end.

[RebelOne]

19. My car bumper sticker ribbons say it all.

One reads: "Bring them home" and the other "Out of Iraq."

[electron_blue]

23. I don't understand your point about criticizing.

Maybe I'm missing something, b ut it looks to me like you're implying that those of us against war should have no say in what is being done in the current wars, right?

[seemslikeadream]

32. Oh no not at all

It seems that it will no longer be acceptable to critize without being "on board"

[onehandle]

24. War is cool. According to Army commercials, it's just one big remote control video game.

And you come out of the experience fully educated and ready to assume a CEO role.

War is the Best!

[stray cat]

25. It depends on the war - I do believe there is a time to fight.

Iraq wasn't one of them. I do not believe in passivism at all costs even if invaded.

[Redbear]

26. Yes.

And if our new president doesn't get us out of Iraq quickly, I will dissent.

[timtom]

27. Vehemently.

I'm almost a single-issue voter at this point.
Well, actually, sharing equal importance to me is the immediate repeal of all the unConstitutional legislation (Patriot, Mil. Commissions, etc.)

[RedCappedBandit]

29. War is one of the biggest failures of our species

The whole concept is absolutely disgusting.

Yeah, you could call me anti-war

[coffeenap]

30. Always and forever. "Dissent is the highest form of patriotism"

And it is such because it can prevent dying for "your country" by using voices, not violence. grrr....

[NeedleCast]

31. No, no one

:eyes:

[seemslikeadream]

34. Then say something against Obama's stance on the war

[NeedleCast]

40. Since his Stance seems to be Get out of Iraq, Get Bin Laden

I'm pretty okay with it.

[seemslikeadream]

45. When did he say we would be out of Iraq and Afghanistan?

[NeedleCast]

47. I don't believe he's scheduled a date yet

I checked my MS-Outlook, no date scheduled yet.

His hundreds of campaign speeches all seemed to indicate that his opinion of Iraq is that we should be leaving post-haste and I assume he will follow through on that by drawing down troop levels as quickly as possible and possibly sending some of them to hunt for Bin Laden in Afghanistan.

[seemslikeadream]

49. I thought Bin Laden was in Pakistan?

[NeedleCast]

51. Dunno...

Despite my frequent requests, Bin Laden refuses to disclose his whereabouts to me. Regardless, I very much want him to become deceased. I am happy that Obama shares that view with me.

[seemslikeadream]

54. If you don't know where Bin Laden is how can you kill or capture him?

[NeedleCast]

59. I didn't know where my car keys were when I woke up this morning

and yet I managed to find them and get to work in a timely fashion.

Turns out, they were in my OTHER coat pocket, the one where the lining the pocket has torn, and they fell down into inside of the coat. It was a tense few minutes, let me tell you!

In regard to your question, I suggest following the same plan I did this morning, but on more of a macro scale, as I'm pretty sure Bin Laden is not in either of my coats.

[seemslikeadream]

61. The Middle East is quite a big place are we going to envade every country there?

[NeedleCast]

63. No, I am not suggesting we "envade" every country there

and that is a rather complicated issue. Starting with the fact that many people in the middle east, especially those in tribal areas don't really have any interest in the borders of individual countries. To most people in the tribal areas of Afghanistan and Pakistan the border is just a line the English drew in the sand when they left many decades ago. So how do you go about respecting the borders of various countries while chasing someone who doesn't? It's an hard question and one I hope Obama will be able to solve.

At the same time, I'm not willing to give up trying to kill Bin Laden because he is responsible for one of the most horrible acts in my life time. Are you suggesting that becasue this is a complicated problem that we should say screw it and give up attempting to bring Bin Laden to justice?

[seemslikeadream]

66. I'm just not in favor of bombing every single country in the Middle East and elsewhere

to find a guy that may well be dead already

[NeedleCast]

68. Nor am I

and I don't think I've suggested such a thing, nor do I think Obama has suggested such a thing.

Having served in Afghanistan, my opinion is that the best way to find Bin Laden would be with small, highly mobile teams who would have permission to operate on both sides of the Afghanistan/Pakistan borders. Large scale operations, rewards, etc are unlikely to produce results because of a vastly different cultural norm in that part of the world.

Having seen evidence of Taliban rule first hand, I have no regret at all that we squashed those fuckers and I hope that we keep stomping on them every time they rear their pointy little heads.

[nolabels]

115. Regardless if he is dead or not, implicating him and or making him.......

the Bogey man or somebody else's hero seems rather naive. We have this Bush dude who still hasn't been proven to have actually won any of his elections telling the rest of us that 9/11 was mastermind plot of Bin Laden

Google Trends, "9/11 truth" keyword search volume
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=125&topic_id=226881&mesg_id=226881

[Duende azul]

70. Proof please?

Did he personally call you to confess he committed that "one of the most horrible acts in my life time"?
Or are you sure of it because the people around the man that just stole the presidency told you so?

To "bring to justice" in my world requires some standards. Indictment, proof of guilt (without torturing witnesses), conviction. You know, that kind of old fashioned things.


And btw: how many more Afghans should be killed to make up for the loss of life in that horrible act?

[seemslikeadream]

73. Thank you

[NeedleCast]

74. I think his taking credit for it on several of his tapes

is a pretty clear indication. I'm sure you can find copies of those recordings on the interwebs.

As to your strawman which suggests that I'm all for killing Afghanis to find Bin Laden...well, two can play at that game so I'll say:

And btw: How many Afghani women needed to be raped and/or murdered by the Taliban before the US intervened?

[Duende azul]

88. pretty clear indication?

with lots of good will the authenticity of "his tapes" is a question of belief.
Nothing to base the devastation of a series of countries on.

People in Afghanistan are actually getting killed. Nothing of a straw man here.


You just told me the war on Afghanistan was on behalf of women´s rights. If that´s the case, the US would have been more successful in just joining the Soviets in their endeavor to stabilize the country in the 80´s. Instead of arming the Mujahedeen and later on the Taliban via Pakistan.
I'm pretty sure, the women there would be much better of today.

And since your up to playing games:
I´m interested in your pov on what else should trigger US-interventions/occupations around the globe?

[wtmusic]

93. Do you believe 9/11 was a domestic conspiracy?

If so, you're in the wrong forum.

[NeedleCast]

110. The straw man was suggesting that *I* supported those killings

Well, seeing the dude on the tapes saying that he was happy 9-11 happened and that he was taking credit for it seemed pretty authentic to me. I mean if a tape of Bin Landen pretty much holding up a big sign with "Yeah I did it fuckos, suck my balls!" isn't enough proof for you then I doubt anyone would ever be able to convince you.

I didn't say the war on Afghanistan was on behalf of women's rights, I simply suggested that it was a damned good reason. I have this nasty habit of not siding with oppresive religious groups no matter what "side" they're on. Taliban or Talibaptist, I'll stand on the side of people's rights against those that would seek to oppress them, and that includes standing up to domestic terrorists. I think it's pretty clear that the US made a mistake in supporting the Mujahedeen but the Communist Soviet Union was enemy #1 in those days. Giving other people guns to fight your enemies is almost always been proven to be a poor idea. We might learn to stop doing it at some point, but I doubt it.

As to your last question, I don't think I have time to bang out an answer today. It's really something that should be approached on a case by case basis. I think Darfur would be a good place to start. Hell, if I were President, I'd be keeping a pretty close eye on some of the religious fundamentalists in our own society they have started to skate a very thin line and seem to have gained some level of political clout. I don't want to see us become the police force of the world and while I'm not an isolationist by any means, I think, as many centeris Democrats do, that use of force should be done with the utmost caution.

That being said, having been on the ground very early in the war in Afghanistan and having a bird's eye view of some of the attrocities carried out by the Taliban, you'd have a very hard time convincing me that crushing those roaches was a bad idea. The fact that in some ways, we helped create that problem makes it all the more important for us to clean up. People who have sympathy for the Taliban have, in most cases, never met the Taliban up close and personal like I got to. Taliban members who participated in the gang rapes, religious killings and total repression of rights for so many are very high on my list of people who need to stop bullets with their face.

[seemslikeadream]

120. Have you spoken up about all the Theocratic Dominonists trying to take over

the Military

[NeedleCast]

135. Yes

and I was outspoken against it WHEN I was in the military as early as Basic Training. After our FTX (Field Training eXercises, which is usually a 3-5 day "play army" training situation), we had a big Sunday morning sing-a-long, khumbyah, thing with the chaplain and I took a pass. Luckily my Drill Sgt was pretty cool about it. I was taking down some tents and one of my Drills was up there with me and said ", you need to get down there and get some religion." I said no offense Drill Sgt, but sing alongs aren't really my thing. He laughed and said "yeah, I hear ya...I'm not going down there either."

The military is obviously a very large entity and I can't speak for other people's experiences but I never felt pressured into any sort of religion. I know (and believe) people who did encounter this sort of thing though. The kicker is, however, that you've got a pretty decent chance of experiencing this in ANY occupation. This isn't something that's unique to the military. You can find relgious nutters trying to influence employees at any sort of job, anywhere in the world.

As I pointed out elsewhere in this thread, the active duty members of the military account for (approx) one and a third million people. Anytime you have an body of people that large you're going to have an interesting assortment of criminals, crazies (both religious and otherwise) and other shady characters.

[Duende azul]

121. There is no war without killings,

so supporting the occupation is just supporting the killings, killing of civilians included. No way around it.

Regardless the authenticity of the tapes, the war is not and never has been a defensive action. The plans to invade date pretty much before the claimed cause.

I hope with your last paragraph you are not trying to insinuate I have sympathy for the Taliban.
Then this discussion would probably be over.

May I ask how close you did "meet" them? (If this is something you´re allowed to talk about.)

[NeedleCast]

139. I met them as in I shot them

Or shot at them, in any case. I was 96D (Satellite Imagery Analyst) and my primary role in Afghanistan was running and watching cameras on predators and doing analysis on satellite based imagery. However, just like pretty much everyone else over there, especially early, I spent my share of time going on patrols and engaged in several fire-fights. Most of these were "settled" at long range when we called in air support, because the Taliban and other "bad guys" in Afghanistan really weren't interested in mixing it up at close range very often (because after trying this a few times and getting killed pretty regularly, they realized it was a bad idea). I also have no illusion that the work I did with imagery didn't result in people dying, as that was, generally, the point of doing it.

We became pretty close to some of the local villages who were also opposed to the Taliban and between the locals and the areas still held by the warlords, there were many, many stories of taliban atrocities. And I'm not talking about water boarding (which is torture enough), I'm talking about "Hey, your brother said something bad about a Taliban Imam so we put out his eyes with a sharp stick and hacked his hands off at the wrists with a dull saw." I'm talking about "hey, your wife was found reading a magazine so we rounded up a mob and beat her to death with some wooden clubs." Those were normal, daily, occurrences under the Taliban. Please believe that this wasn't a collection of rare horror stories...it was going on regularly, and in some areas, it still is. Public executions, beats, stonings and the complete suppression of right was the norm. These things are the end sum of what happens when fundamentalists or zealots of any sort take over. It's the result of complacency in the face of people who walk a dangerous ideological path that says any means are acceptable to reach the goal (which was a warped version of fundamentalist Islam in this particular case).

Yes, people, including civilians, die in wars, and that's tragic. You want the collection of images of dead bodies, some mutilated, burned, or disassembled beyond recognition by bomb blasts, flame or just plain old human brutality, I'll get to live with for the next 40-50 years, you're welcome to them. I have more reason to be opposed to war then the vast majority of this board, so again, understand that I would never support a war I didn't consider just and necessary. As I've said though, I have zero sympathy for the Taliban and it's supporters and have no problem at all with their eradication.

The war in Afghanistan may not have been a defensive action and I'm sure there were pre-9/11 plans that existed for invasion or other military actions. That's part of the role of the military and such plans exists for thousands of scenarios. The fact that they existed isn't proof (to me) that we were looking for an excuse to use them (although I'm talking about only Afghanistan in this case...in the case of Iraq I think the Bush regime was very much looking for an excuse to use them).

[tuckessee]

89. Actually three or more can play that game.

If rape is such a concern of yours then who will invade the US military to prevent the rampant raping of its very own service women?

[seemslikeadream]

101. There you go speaking the truth

[NeedleCast]

113. One point three million active duty troops

Going to find some bad apples in there and it really is a shame because - as we can see from what you just said - you're happy to let the bad apples spoil the whole bunch.

I'll just say that I don't think rampant raping is going on in the military. One rape is too many, but rampant isn't the word I'd use.

[seemslikeadream]

102. I have found many fake Bin Laden tapes

[TheWatcher]

144. Now should I watch the tape with the Fat Bin Laden of the Skinny one?

Propaganda Apologist to the very end. :eyes:

[NeedleCast]

146. Leading the Tin Foil Brigade to the very end

Say, what ever happened to your non-stop babbling about the US military deploying all of NORCOM to supress voters and enforce martial law during the elections?

[Mnemosyne]

149. Bin Laden NOT wanted by FBI for 9/11. Link:

http://www.projectcensored.org/top-stories/articles/16-no-hard-evidence-connecting-bin-laden-to-9-11/


Bin Laden says he wasn't behind attacks

September 17, 2001 Posted: 11:21 AM EDT (1521 GMT)

DOHA, Qatar (CNN) -- Islamic militant leader Osama bin Laden, the man the United States considers the prime suspect in last week's terrorist attacks on New York and Washington, denied any role Sunday in the actions believed to have killed thousands.

http://archives.cnn.com/2001/US/09/16/inv.binladen.denial/index.html

[Lydia Leftcoast]

159. The CIA actually supported the Taliban taking over

after the Russians left. Only the Left complained about the plight of Afghan women from 1996 to2001.

[Iggo]

36. Blah.

[seemslikeadream]

53. "Blah" is a token word with no meaning of its own

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blah

In English, blah is a word that is sometimes used as an expression for words or feelings where the specifics are not considered important to the speaker or writer for emotions. It is not often seen in formal writing, except when transcribing speech. It differs from a speech disfluency such as "um" or "er" in that blah is a word used deliberately to represent other words, rather than as an accidental or temporary interjection into speech. Blah is also used when the speaker cannot say what was intended. "Blah" is also mimed behind people's backs to suggest that they talk too much or that they talk about useless topics for no reason. The word "Blah" can also be used in a mocking or sarcastic tone. "Blah" can also be used as a sign of impatience and arrogance towards another.

"Blah" is a token word with no meaning of its own, usually used to illustrate generic, boring speech. It may be used to fill in blank space, or to replace another word or phrase. It's for this last purpose that blah is sometimes assumed to mean something negative because it is used to replace a word that may be unpleasant, but blah itself is neutral. If spoken aloud the tone can usually be used to determine the speaker's intent.

"Blah" is also used within a compound noun, suggesting a psychological state or expressing an opinion; for example, February blahs describes a generally depressed condition during winter. It is also viewed as a word expressing indifference, or lack of a preference. It may also be used to imply that something is not impressive, or it is boring, bland, or without character.

Several alternatives or variants of the word can be observed today, such as bleh, blech, bla, meh or bah, although some differences may be perceived in certain contexts. Generally these variants would only be used in place of blah to show unimportance, disgust or disinterest. The word used is typically left to individual preference.

[EstimatedProphet]

171. So is your post.

[ikojo]

39. Why would Obama's election change my

anti war views? I didn't approve of Clinton bombing Iraq. My opposition to war has nothing to do with the political affiliation of the president.

[TransitJohn]

41. 40 replies and only 2 recs?

:wtf: people? Here's a hearty K&R and an even heartier answer: "Hell yes!"

[Marrah_G]

69. Why would I reccomend a one line question?

I save mine for well thought out- well written posts.

Not single question posts that are masking the real question the poster wants to ask.

[seemslikeadream]

75. Well then why did you even feel the need to post what you thought my motives were?

[Marrah_G]

105. I just did.

I don't care that you posted it. I just found it odd someone was upset it didn't get more recommends.

[seemslikeadream]

119. oh well

[T Wolf]

46. I interpret your question to be asking whether we on DU will be "allowed to" (or discouraged from)

criticize(ing) "our" President for his policies.

[relayerbob]

48. Absolutely

War never provides anything except the excuse for the next war. We MUST stop the cycle of violence.

[Lilith Velkor]

52. Me!

:hi:

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

55. I have been since 1964. I've only become more so since.

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

57. I'm a Pacifist.

[barbtries]

58. yes

[alfredo]

60. Out of Iraq and Afghanistan NOW!

[Chemical Bill]

62. I'm pro-peace.

There's a big difference. I'm not saying that if we ignore the war it will go away, I'm saying that we need to concentrate on where we want to go - a peaceful, plentiful society where our energy goes toward loving and caring. But yes, I'm still sending emails to DC about it.

Bill

[malmapus]

64. My stance is Pro-Peace as well.

Unfortunately there are times when use of force of arms is necessary. I supported our actions in Afghanistan. But when the sabre rattling stated in on Iraq in 2002 that's when I drew the line and joined in on the marches.

[Chemical Bill]

77. Since OBL was CIA...

I never supported taking it out on the people of Afghanistan. Al-Qaeda started as a CIA force in Afghanistan. Did you know that the Bush family funded Hitler, along with Henry Ford and Watson from IBM? Hitler could not have gained power without money from the US. Saddam was CIA, and was set up to be a boogieman by Bush1. Who are we funding now, that will attack us in the future? Name a war and you can find a reason to not have it, or a way to have prevented it.

Bill

[tjwash]

65. Oh fuck yeah...I got shit thrown at me from cars in '92...

...was against Vietnam and got doused with firehoses in Los Angeles. Was against gulf war 1 (another filthy bush oil war), Bosnia and Gulf war 1 1/2 (Bill Clinton proving that liberals could cluster bomb cities and cheer body counts with the best of them), and of course the ongoing occupation.

And yes... that little bit of warmongering by Obama about going medieval on Afghanistan and Pakistan has me shaking my head as well. What blows me away is how many of our fellow dems are sharpening their axes, and getting their little war dance on as well, not seeing the bitter reality that the CHANGE obama promises, needs to start with getting rid of the god damned military industrial complex, or at least making it so that war is no longer the proftable business venture that it has been since the 50's.

But it's not. I have a horrible feeling that dems are going to get in lockstep, and cheer as we go into another un-winnable occupation in Afghanistan and Pakistan. I just have a sick feeling that we are going to see the same type of patriot baiting here that we have been accusing the repugs of, if we don't get in lockstep. I just have a knot in my stomach that dems here are going to trot out the same tired excuses that we accuse the repugs of using about not enlisting or serving. I just have a sick fucking feeling, that the only reason that a lot of people here have been against the invasion and occupation of the middle east for the past 5 years, is that the wrong side of the aisle has been in charge of the war machine; not that they were really against it themselves.

So...I got my extra thick skin in the ready for the shit that is sure to come down here in about a year.

[xochi]

67. I'm against this endless "war on terror"

and the equally misleading "war on drugs." Both just fronts for our military imperialism, theft of the world's natural resources, global corporatism, exploitation of humanity, etc.

[SteppingRazor]

71. Is anyone here pro-war?

:shrug:

[UpInArms]

72. only way I know to be

:kick:

[underseasurveyor]

79. Yes!

Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes and Yes!

[shadowknows69]

80. Of course

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

82. Nope! We're All Hateful Fascist Warmongers Now!!! Everybody Sing! Bomb Bomb Bomb, Bomb Bomb Iran!

:eyes:

[seemslikeadream]

108. I'm sorry but you mis understood my question

[happydreams]

134. I would like to apologize for calling you OPERATION MINDFART!....

at another topic. Your opinions "from where you SIT" may well be the cure for our energy needs. I think we're finally on the same page.

[ensho]

83. yes, me

no more wars, ever.

[go west young man]

85. Hell yes.

Ex marine here who knows war is never the answer. Especially when it's based upon a lie. Personally I'd love to see Obama reopen an investigation into 911. I'm curious to see if he can expose everything thats been made secret. I fear for his safety as I believe those that have led our country this far right have a lot to hide. It seems a lot of Du'ers however have become convinced that the war in Afghanistan is a legitimate one. The PNAC seems to have been proven correct when they wrote that the Dems would be forced to get on board once the wars were in full swing. Unfortunately.

[lightningandsnow]

87. To echo what someone else said: I'm pro-peace.

I oppose almost all war, and I believe every effort should be made to take alternative measures to prevent war.

That being said, I think there are certain, very rare circumstances where it may be justified, for example, to prevent a bigger genocide.

I'm certainly against the wars people are taking part in, and talking about now, though.

[magellan]

90. I don't oppose war if our country is attacked

...as long as Congress is the body declaring war. But I'm dead set against sending our troops into conflicts that result from our installing puppets, using false flag attacks, equipping agitators in attempt to overthrow governments and grab resources, etc. We need to get out of the business of MAKING war.

War should be rare and never for profit.

[wtmusic]

94. The UN Charter is a beautiful document

and is crystal-clear about justification for war.

But for it to work, we have to abide by it.

[pleah]

95. Yes!

[Sebastian Doyle]

97. I'm anti-DUMB war

Of course, all the wars since 1946 pretty much fit that description.

[iamthebandfanman]

99. im against illegal wars with countries

whove done nothing to us

[Incitatus]

103. Not anymore. It's time to invade every country with Muslims before they come to kill us.

:sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm:

[norepubsin08]

104. Absolutely

As a child of a deceased veteran father (died because of wounds received in Vietnam) and a mother who suffered greatly (amputated leg, life long health problems) because of war, I remain all my life firmly opposed to violent foreign policy adventures by this country and specially in my name!

[SalviaBlue]

106. I feel pretty confident at this point that Obama will handle this properly.

I am anti- Bush Doctrine.

[Beam Me Up]

107. You know I'll stand with you, Seems.

So far as I'm concerned, both fronts on the so called 'War on Terror' are based on lies and deceptions. Ironically, perhaps, I believe we need a real War on Terror -- and that requires an awakening far greater than the one that has swept Obama into the White House. Until the cover is ripped off the relationships between terrorist organizations and international counterintelligence, banking and criminality and the various "industrial complexes", none of us, including Obama, or our liberties will be safe.

[DrDebug]

109. Yes

Bush Is Over, because we wanted it and so can war

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jco4etlHwaE

[seemslikeadream]

169. Thank you Dr. D

[KSDiva]

112. Yep!

[leftstreet]

114. There's a war?

Where?

My teevee doesn't show one.

:shrug:

[mike_c]

118. the war is issue number one for me-- has been since march 2003....

I am terribly disappointed in Obama's intention to "gradually" stop committing war crimes. That's the main reason I voted for Cynthia. At least the Green party is forthright about stopping the war and does not equivocate about bad foreign policy.

[curse of greyface]

122. Depends on the war.

Anti: War in Iraq: War on Drugs

Pro: War against the Taliban

[earth mom]

123. My avatar says it all really, but I also want to say

that what is going on in the middle east is genocide and anyone who supports it has blood on their hands including Obama.

[Breeze54]

124. Why would that have changed?!

:crazy: :wtf:

[xxqqqzme]

125. (raising hand)

And I was against the other war 40 years ago.

[lunatica]

126. Yes. I am still anti-war n/t

[Psyop Samurai]

128. Oh, that is soooo passé...

:sarcasm:

Even I allowed myself to temporarily fall into a feeling of connectedness, crying for the first time in years, taking to the street in celebration. But there is, of course, no extended solace to be found in the pretend world. Nor is there any doubt, so far as I can tell, that we have been brilliantly neutralized, as always.

As for your question..., respectfully, I'm afraid that we have adopted the wrong frame, one in which our minds and humanity are already co-opted by the BIG LIE.

You see, "anti-war" exists as half of a polarity (the inevitability of which is assumed), and is simply our "opinion", which we are free to express on the internet (and in other venues, with the full power of the state arrayed against us).

What is overlooked is the fact that only a psychopath could be "pro-war". And yet an equivalency is already established; the sleight of hand has already taken place. That's how insidious and easily accomplished mind-war is.

So no, in all honesty I would not characterize myself as "anti-war", (though indeed I am not a psychopath and maintain that psychopathy must be firmly confronted). I remain, however, very much against fraud, grand theft, mass murder, genocide, treason, and conspiracy to commit all the above.

Thank you for asking.

[Pastiche423]

129. I've been anti-war since Viet Nam

And will continue to be for all wars that are not in defense of our country.

Since I have been alive, that has yet to be the case. "We" started all of those wars for resources and power.

[StarryNite]

130. Absolutely!

[dkofos]

131. Alway have been and always will be.

[happydreams]

132. Not me anymore. ....

Heck, if you can't beat em' you may as well kill as many as you can. Though I am opposed to trying to convert them to Christianity as Ann "The Man" Coulter proposed--I believe in separation of Church and State.

We need the oil and the drugs and Afghanistan has a shitload of both. Now all we have to do is legalize dope, get the companies that supply it to the US on the stock market as legit companies and boost the US economy to unparalled heights.

The oil, as pointed out by Zbiggy Brezizinski and PNAC, is vital to the survival of the US as the sole remaining super power. Obama is considering bringing him aboard as Sect of State in a kind of Carter redux. Heck, we've invested so much in getting control of the region so far it would be a waste to pull out now.

Some people are worried that retrenching the oil interests will faack up the environment. Shit, we are going to cook (global warming)anyway, may as well be rolling in dough when the end comes.

I'm invested in companies that sell sunscreen, you should see those stocks go up when reports of the ozone holes getting bigger are prevalent.

[lelgt60]

136. Question for those against ANY war...how would you have handled Hitler? n/t

[happydreams]

150. Cut off his funding for starters. Then kicked all the fascist swill that

supported out of the country or put them behind bars.

[lelgt60]

151. But how? You think they'd have left if you asked nicely?

[happydreams]

152. My mistake. I meant the US fascists who tried to take down FDR in a coup

and supported Hitler and Mussolini with arms, money and positive press. WWII would never have happened had the Hitler regime been cut off from these neccessary supplies, and financing. In particular Standard Oil, whose president William Stamps Farish (Bush family friend and business associate)supplied the Luftwaffe with specialized aviation fuel that could be gotten nowhere else. Using 2nd Amendment Rights to avoid control US small arms manufacturers, particularly Remington supplied the Nazis with guns to take power in the 20's. The head of Remington, Sam Pryor, was on the BOD of WA Harriman company along with Prescott Bush. These Americans knew what Hitler's "Iron Fist" was doing in the streets of Germany to snuff out the opposition and they turned a blind eye to it.

If this were an isolated incident (WWII) we could write it off to an accident, or bumbling, but WWI, which FDR investigated and exposed unbelievable profiteering and corruption, had just happened and Remington supplied the arms for Czarist Russia, while US bankers supplied his enemy--the Bolsheviks-- with financing. Saddam Hussein was built up in a similar fashion.

What I am saying is that these wars were carefully planned and managed affairs resulting in stupendous profits. Strategically vital industries in WWI and WWII in Germany were left intact deliberately.

Check out Smedley Butler's "Wars a Racket".

[lelgt60]

154. Interesting...thanks. n/t

[Lydia Leftcoast]

160. Nazism was a direct result of World War I

Germany was unfairly blamed for the war, when actually all the major countries were spoiling for a fight. Germany was forced to pay crippling reparations thAt wrecked it's economy and to dismantle it's imperial govt. The Kaiser was no saint but he was a damn sight better than Hitler.
If the KAiser had been in power, Hitler would have never risen higher than the level of street punk.

[malaise]

141. I will die anti-war

Time to end the wars.

[onethatcares]

142. I am against imperialistic wars where the only thing

we as a nation seems to be doing is crushing one country for its' resourses. I do not have a phobia against wars where genocide is an issue.

Peace.

[katty]

145. yes, yes, yes

[Duppers]

147. hell YES

does a bear..., is the pope..., etc. ?

Are you kidding?!

[Dangerman]

148. Hell yeah!

[KoKo]

153. You Betcha! (sorry...doing Palin)...but, anyway, it's not the top issue, anymore.

Media has moved on and folks are more worried about putting food on table and surviving. We've become what the Iraqi's are going through. Yet, what we did to them is no longer important because it's SURVIVAL.

Sad thing that many Americans can't see that it's all tied together. What we did in Iraq...and the export of our horrible deregulated Banking System to all over the Globe...just so the Neo-Cons could have their ORGASIM for Doctrine of Pre-emptive STRIKE! WAR! WAR!

War was always good...until folks didn't sacrifice to pay for it.. That was their mistake. :-( But, many folks out there aren't understanding the connection. It's up to the voices out here to keep pounding it home.

Thanks for your post.

[WildEyedLiberal]

155. Do you have any reason to believe that they're not? (nt)

[Liberalynn]

156. Anit War or Anti Iraq War?

I am anti Iraq War, I am also anti Vietnam war in retrospect, though I was so young I barely understood what was going on at the time, but I believe there are some cases where war has been neccessary like World War II for example, and the Revolutionary War, and the Civil War.

For a theoretical example if Russia were to ever actually attack us or one of our allies, or actually come out and announce legitmate plans to attack us or one of our allies, then IMHO we would have the right to defend ourselves through military means.

But no I am not for wars where we attack someone, without provocation, like Dumbya and Uncle Dick did because they claimed that in their own little minds they believed that Iraq was possibly going to attack us, at some future date yet to be determined, with non existent weapons of mass dellusion. But really only attacked just because they wanted to control Iraq's oil.

[Maat]

157. Oh, yes!

:hi:

I'm at my weekly peace vigil every Friday, between 4 and 5 P.M., with the rest of the peaceniks (right across from the old post office - downtown).

[Lydia Leftcoast]

158. Very much so

Most wars throughout history have been stupid,cruel, useless orgies of aggression, greed, and pointless machismo, mostly started by older people who send younger people out to die for no good reason.
BTW, this includes the whole bullshit "war on terror." it's pure hooey from beginning to end. Terrorists are beat caught through police work, not military action.
Under current circumstances, no one in Iraq or Afghanistan is really serving their country. They may intend to do so and believe it but thry're actually serving US business interests.
If Obama really wanted to win the world's respect even more he could withdraw all troops from the MiddleEast and use the money to pay reparations.
The whole idea that militarism is the highest form of patriotism is one of the sick myths we grow up with.
Patriotism should mean making your own country better, not making someone else's worse.
I know the gung ho types will flame me, but I don't care. not one war in my lifetime ever accomplished anything good.

[struggle4progress]

161. Absolutely. Got any ideas?

[soma9766]

162. erm

yes

[Truth2Tell]

164. I will continue to oppose wars.

And I will continue to speak out on DU and oppose my fellow Democrats when they support wars.

I will oppose Obama if he doesn't end the Iraqi occupation quickly.

I will oppose Obama if he decides to leave bases in Iraq, or trainers, or mercs.

I will oppose Obama if he doesn't end the Afghanistan occupation quickly, or if he sends more forces, or leaves bases, or mercs.

I will oppose Obama if he wrongly demonizes the Russians, or the Iranians, or the Venezuelans, or anyone else. I will oppose him if he sends more forces to Georgia, or Columbia, or Ethiopia, or anywhere else.

I will oppose Obama if he adds more troops to the military, or fails to reduce Defense spending, or fails to reduce our nuclear arsenal, or supports new missle sheilds.

I will oppose Obama if he fails to apply pressure on Israel to make real peace with the Palestinians.

I will oppose Obama if he fails to reign in our runaway intelligence apparatus the world over.

I will oppose Obama if he fails to begin closing US military bases in the 100+ countries in which they now exist.

I will oppose Obama on these and many other issues, loudly and clearly and yes, on DU.

I will oppose Obama on all of these fronts because I am a loyal American and a loyal Democrat. Dissent is an obligation of a participant in a democracy. It is especially important within one's own Party. I will support Obama as President by opposing him on these and other issues. I will support America by speaking out on these and other issues.

I'm not going anywhere.

:patriot:

[Name removed]

165. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[snot]

166. YES. And the more I see, the more anti- I get.

[Name removed]

167. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[tomp]

168. is obama? nt

[PeaceNikki]

170. Huh

seemslikeyouretryingtostartshit