So When did the memo go out that the GLBT Community can't call Bullshit on the Black Community.

[BronxBoy]

I don't know if our community is the reason for Prop 8 passing. But it seemed, at least in Cali, that we weren't squeamish about adding our voices to those who are ok with the concept of second class citizenship for GLBT citizens. And there are some people who are saying "That's fucked up." And there are those who are saying "Why blame the Black Folks? Lot's of other folks voted for it too!"

Well, from what I've been able to gather from reading posts here, Black support for banning Gay marriage ran about 70%. Was that the reason the prop passed? Don't know. I am more concerned that, at least in this incidence, our community was a willing participant in doing the very thing that we have railed about for decades: endorsing the concept of separate but equal. Especially on the night that a Black man was elected to one of the most powerful positions in the world.

I've sensed a hesitancy on DU to talk about Black complicity in this act. "Maybe we need to phrase it differently!" "It wasn't the fault of Black people" Yeah, I heard the comments. But our community, more than any other in this country, should know what the hell disenfranchisement is all about. I'll be blunt; There is an undercurrent of homophobia that runs beneath the surface of our community and it's time to talk about it.

When the Donny McClurkin episode broke out over the summer, I wrote an OP here about how the Black community had problems with dealing with issue of homosexuality and that, quite frankly, we were being very hypocritical in adopting the language of religion to justify unequal treatment. For every statement that that a Black person can pull from the Bible supporting homophobia, I could probably find just as many that were used to justify Slavery and the subjugation of our people.

Black people by and large also bristle, absolutely bristle, at any suggestion that the struggle of the GLBT community somewhat parallels our struggle in the civil rights movement. Personally I think it's bullshit to get so wrapped up in the sanctity of the Civil Rights movement that no one can't compare the other struggles to what went on with it. While I don't have proof of it, I think there is a mentality that says "How dare those fags compare their struggles with what we went through" Not trying to be disrespectful but I know that's how a lot of people feel.

So maybe so our community may need to be talked to in a certain way. Or maybe we need to be told we have our heads up our ass and buying in to a belief system that turns other American citizens into second class citizens is the height of hypocrisy considering where we've come from. I mean, we'll celebrate James Baldwin in February but you better shut the fuck up about him being Gay. It's our version of the don't ask, don't tell policy.

And aside from denying people equal rights, this homophobia is a prime reason we are the number one group when it comes to new cases of HIV\AIDS.

So yeah: Black folks got their collective heads out of our asses about this

On Tuesday we celebrated the ascendancy of a Black man to the Presidency.

But you can't bask in the heavens while you are standing in shit

[BronxBoy]

1. Kick

Cause I really want to know

[Leopolds Ghost]

194. An equally broad-brush informative OP taking the other side of the issue was unpopular got locked

Is it OK to broad-brush "blacks" but not "gentrifiers"?

Secular mostly white, "liberal", economically conservative DUers
who care about social issues but only for one group but not another.

[Jackpine Radical]

239. I didn't see that thread, but I think this is maybe a fight we need to have,

in which case the lock was maybe a mistake. (Saying "maybe because I didn't see the thread.)

Mr. Charlie has relied on racism to keep working people divided for generations. Homophobia is a good wedge tool to keep liberals from coming together effectively. It's the same process, and we only get past it--for the greater good of all of us--by overcoming the pettiness. If homophobia is prevalent among black people, or among some whites who are otherwise liberal, we need to know it, acknowledge it, see the harm that it does to us, and heal each other so we can join forces in pushing for progress. There are other, pressing issues that need our attention, that need the attention of all of us. Nobody is able to work effectively on the great causes if we keep permitting these destructive divisions.

[plaintiff]

2. Thank you.

Very much.

[BronxBoy]

4. You're welcome

People say they want honesty in politics. But only if it doesn't offend the wrong people. Our community is DEAD wrong on this issue

[chimpymustgo]

248. THe black community is being SCAPEGOATED. They are NOT the reason Prop 8 passed!!!

I am SICK to death of this RACISM.

[BlueCaliDem]

259. No. The black comm. is not the reason why Prop 8 passed but out of all the groups...

... they voted by far, the most for it to.

I'm SICK of ALL prejudices and discrimination, not just the racism kind.

[cullen2382]

275. Racism?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I got the impression the OP is black

[Heather MC]

262. This issue has been voted down twice, I think the only way to truely resolve this is

Supreme court decision just like with biracial marriage and Abortion

[customerserviceguy]

290. You're probably right about the Supreme Court

but that means it's going to take a very long time to bring about justice and marriage equality. Yes, I know that they decided Lawrence vs. Texas by a 6-3 majority, but one of those six was Sandra Day O'Connor, and she's been replaced by Alito, so that vote's gone.

All we can count on are Breyer, Stevens, Souter and Ginsberg, and the last three are the only ones likely to be replaced in the next several years by President Obama. I'm not sure even he will make this a litmus test for a judge to be appointed, he campaigned by saying that marriage was "one man one woman", and he might be reluctant to support someone who was openly in favor of marriage equality.

It's a big thing to ask the Supreme Court to OK same-sex marriage across the entire land when a majority of the states have marriage discrimination written into their constitutions. And we're not talking about some 19th Century laws that are spottily enforced (as with interracial marriage) but ones that have all happened within the last decade. It's difficult to make the case that we've evolved as a society when every state that has had this issue come up before the voters, they've eventually all voted in favor of staining their constitutions in such a blatant way. It would be much easier for the Supreme Court to rule that while the US Constitution is silent on the issue of same-gender marriage, it is a matter left up to each individual state. That's the way things are with first-cousin marriage, half the states allow it, and half don't.

If the legal challenges to Prop. 8 are not resolved favorably by the California Supreme Court, then we've got to try to get marriage equality passed in the places that do not have explicit constitutional prohibitions, and let it grow from there. If this California vote had been held five or ten years later, it might well have turned out a very different way.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

3. EXCELLENT POST!

K&R

[LostinVA]

5. Thanks -- this issue needs to be discussed, or things will never change

As I said to bliss_eternal this morning on here, it's the GOPs new "Southern Strategy": use Black and Hispanic churches to vote against other minorities. It's why I HATED the Donnie McClurkin thing: our side did the same thing.

E. Lynn Harris wrote a great essay in the "Advocate" a few years ago on this very thing.

We HAVE to try and fix this, and discussing it doesn't make one racist or mean AA folks are being condemned. It's aploy the GOP used to take the South away for a generation, and it appears they are doing it again to chip away AA votes on civil rights issues.

Great post.

[eridani]

6. Thank you for making black LGBT folks once again invisible

NOT

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

8. How does his post do that?

[eridani]

75. By using the terms "black community" and "LGBT community"

This implies necessary separation, when black LGBT people are members of both groups.

[roguevalley]

132. I'm done with division. We all live on the same planet, have the

same dreams and needs and will die together from this bs if we don't look at each and see human beings. I wish everyone, regardless of color or orientation would get their heads out of their asses. Judge fucking not lest ye also be judged. Anyone who has experienced institutionalized racism and oppression has no right to support it against anyone else. either we are all free or we aren't. God, I wish i could fast forward this shit ten years. God bless all who suffer and are oppressed because you are MY BROTHERS AND SISTERS. Forgive those who oppress FOR ANY REASON for they are the saddest, most sorrowful people on this planet.

[illuminaughty]

269. That's what I was wondering

I posted in a thread over a week ago about racist situations I'd encountered with someone who is like a son to me. But he's black AND he's gay. And I know for him he's always felt it was a double whammy of prejudice that he had to face.

It's heart breaking.

[BronxBoy]

11. Personally I think the Black LGBT is invisible

Seen but not heard in the very community that should know better.

How do we change that?

[noiretextatique]

20. maybe that will change with the younger folks

i gave up on that a long time ago.

[illuminaughty]

271. I just posted something about this.

About someone who is as a son to me. Been with me since the age of 8 and is now 26 (student and director in my dance studio) He's black and he's gay. It was very difficult to come out to his family.

My close friends (who are AA)went back to being Jehovah's Winesses. So, really, how do we overcome any of this with everyone holding on to their prejudices?

[jonnyblitz]

318. ....

[noiretextatique]

16. i know what you mean com

[BronxBoy]

35. I don't

and I'm not Gay so I always give pause before I post about this subject. But I feel strongly that our community is being hypocritical on this issue.

But I would like your insight cuz it seems like I offended someone.

[AlbertCat]

251. I'm not gay!!!!

Sheesh!

"I'm not Gay so I always give pause before I post about this subject."

Why is that? You're human aren't you? Why is it assumed that if someone posts something nice about gays, it is then assumed they must be gay? I'll bet more homophobes are gay than those who don't care if anyone is gay.

And what happened to Bisexuals???

Here's a clue people....the only thing gay people have in their lives that straight people don't is homophobia. The only thing we have to put up with that straights don't is homophobes. Otherwise, it's just like everyone else on the planet.

[TomInTib]

7. How succinct.

Spot-on from a straight guy, BronxBoy.

KnR

Tom

[BronxBoy]

10. Funny thing Tom

I'm straight too.

But the running joke in the Black community is that everyone has a Gay cousin and tha most of the choir directors in the Black churches are Gay.

Yet somehow we can't seem to get the disconnect when we take a stand that we do.

[NashVegas]

9. Wonderful Post

I got out the calculator; if black people had voted closer to a rate that was averaged out of all other groups, it would still have passed by about 50k votes, I think.

I don't blame black people for it passing; I just understand why the GLBT community is pissed off, even horrified, by the irony of it.

[ContinentalOp]

52. I got different math than you. If black and latino voters had voted the same way as whites...

it would have passed with only a slim 929 vote margin.

970,000 black voters, 1,746,000 Latino voters, 6,111,000 white voters

Yes votes: 3,116,610 whites, 925,380 Latinos, 679,000 African Americans

It passed by only 478,169 votes (5,319,905 to 4,841,736)

If black and Latino voters had voted on 8 in the same percentages as white voters (49% for, 51% against), that would have been 890,460 Latino "yes" votes (a 34,920 difference), and 475,300 black "yes" votes (a 203,700 difference).

Flipping those 238,620 votes would have meant 5,081,285 yes votes and 5,080,356 no votes and 8 would have passed by a only a 929 vote margin.

[dsc]

73. Your math is wrong

Latinos actually voted 53 to 47 in favor (You used the 53% to get your number of votes) and your change would be to a 49% 51% split. .49 times 1,746,000 is 855,540 for a change of 69,840, your numbers for black voters is correct. But your 929 margin becomes a negative 33,991 vote margin and thus a win for no.

[ContinentalOp]

121. Oops, thanks for the correction. I did this yesterday before all of the results were in.

You're the first person to actually respond to the numbers though!

Overall, the point was that black voters may be a small part of the overall total but they did help push 8 over the top.

[AZ Criminal JD]

79. Your math is so far off it is not funny

If black and Latino voters had voted the same as whites 51% no it would have been defeated by 203,231 votes.

[NashVegas]

93. The General Result Is the Same

And I haven't seen anyone expressing anger towards Hispanic voters. Hence ...

[Ian David]

12. I don't blame "The Black Folks." I blame the conservative Black Clergy that are misleading them.

See:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=221&topic_id=87922&mesg_id=87947

[BronxBoy]

15. Good point

But you know DU is VERY rough on people who let Fundie preachers shape their reality. Why should excuses be made for our community?

[Ian David]

18. Those people who have been misled by their clergy into voting for bigotry are NOT on DU.

Or at least, they shouldn't be.

Start with the assumption that everyone here is on the same team.

We need them to go out and fix the problem.

[BronxBoy]

26. I agree

And if I'm to be honest, I don't know what the answer is. I express my opinion to Black folks I know.

But I've seen people making excuses for Black complicity here

[Ian David]

28. Unless they're an Atheist, Unitarian, or in United Church of Christ, blame their clergy.

They've been lied to, manipulated and deceived by them.

[Liberalynn]

76. I don't know for sure about that as a legitimate reason.

I was raised Catholic. Went to a Catholic School for eight years. Have a very Catholic family.

I was told the Pope was infalliable, that any other relgion was unacceptable, that unless I followed Church doctrine with a capital C, I was going to hell.

They literally tried to beat me into believing that humans have no value, except to be servants to a God that demanded unquestioning loyalty and obdience, but was expected to offer nothing in return for it, other than a rescindible offer of possibly going to heaven, but only if I was a good enough servant.

I was too young to walk then, I wouldn't have been allowed too. Even whem I was older, I hesitated out of respect for my family.

There came a point, however, when my own sense of right and wrong, and justice kicked in and I was no longer able to sit there and listen to them spout their self righteous hypocrictal garbage.

I don't even get why they think of themselves as Christians, when most of what they preach is out of the Old Testament, and has nothing to do with what Jesus Christ himself said? Its like they totally ignore the New Testament which is supposedly the word of Jesus.

What happened to "Judge not less ye be judged," Or "he who is a judger of my father's law, is no longer a follower of my father's law?"

I stood up in the middle of a sermon one day, said this is crap loudly enough to be heard and walked out. My Mom and sister's mouth dropped open, but they didn't disown me.

I haven't stepped in a Catholic Church other than for a relative's funeral since. I won't even let my Mom put my name on raffle tickets for the our local Churches carnivals. Okay that maybe excessive, but I don't want to be associated with Church, in any way shape or form any more.

I get that there are good religious people but when do they all stand up and cry "crap" on the bigoted fudies of any creed or race? Why don't they take their churches back and demand they stand up for what Christ actually preached? Until then I can't help but hold them partially responsible as well.

[GinaMaria]

292. Amen

I turned my back on Conservative Catholic Crap a long time ago. This hateful BS has got to stop. WWJD? I think he would perform marriage ceremonies for GBLT people. This bigotry exists in many different communities. It makes no sense for women to vote yes on Prop 8, but I'm sure many did. It makes no sense for Hispanics/Latinos to vote yes on Prop 8 but many probably did. It makes no sense for people who belong to certain religious groups who have been ridiculed, minimized and marginalized to support Prop 8, but we know Catholics and Mormons and others actively supported this.

So why hasn't everyone woken up and smelled the coffee? It is difficult to fathom when we are people who are the exact opposite. What makes this so difficult for people to see? Denying civil rights to anyone hurts all of us. We claim to want to spread democracy around the world, but can't seem to do it at home. How do we hold a mirror up for people to see this as it is and not have them avert their eyes and deny they are wrong. What message will get through? What will it take?

[bluedawg12]

134. "Homophobia, hypermasculinity and the US black church"

I found this for another thread, but it may shed some light and point a direction of where to go in terms og the GLBT and AA community.

We need each other and we need to clear this up before it tears us apart.

..........
cache of http://www.hawaii.edu/hivandaids/Homophobia,_Hypermasculinity_and_the_US_Black_Church.pdf

Culture, Health & Sexuality, September–October 2005; 7(5):
2005 Taylor & Francis
DOI: 10.1080/13691050500151248

ELIJAH G. WARDInstitute for Health Research and Policy, School of Public Health, University of Illinois at Chicago,
USA

>> Abstract
Black churches in the USA constitute a significant source of the homophobia that pervades black
communities. This theologically-driven homophobia is reinforced by the anti-homosexual
rhetoric of black nationalism. Drawing on a variety of sources, this paper discusses the sources of
homophobia within black communities, and its impact upon self-esteem, social relationships
and physical health. Religion-based homophobia and black nationalism point to wider structures
which have influenced their emergence, including racism, patriarchy and capitalism. It is vital for US
black churches and communities to understand and transcend their longstanding resistance to openly
addressing complex, painful issues of sexuality and embrace healthier definitions of black manhood....read full article...<<

Or, html at this long link:

http://66.218.69.11/search/cache?ei=UTF-8&p=Blacks+%2B+homophobia&fr=slv8-tyc7&u=www.hawaii.edu/hivandaids/Homophobia%2C_Hypermasculinity_and_the_US_Black_Church.pdf&w=blacks+black+black%27s+homophobia&d=Y-If1kLURufi&icp=1&.intl=us

[tkmorris]

69. You can only be led if you are willing to follow

When the clergy is wrong it is YOUR DUTY to not listen to them.

[Liberalynn]

77. Truer words were never spoken

[Ian David]

148. That may be harder to do when your church is also the center of your personal community.

When you arrive in America with nothing but the shirt on your back, and you find a church similar to the one you remember from your native country, where everyone speaks your native tongue, and they not only give you a good service with good music, but help you get established... find a home... find a wife... a job... a place in the community.

In those circumstances, it must be very hard for someone to not only realize they are being lied to, but to also find the courage to stand up and say, "NO!"

[krabigirl]

147. Sorry, no, I also blame the people who allow the clergy to mislead them.

[mitchtv]

165. Stupid is no excuse

anyone who lets someone else tell them how to vote is stupid

[noiretextatique]

13. we also need to remember that black people, like me, voted against prop 8

and we need to remember that whites, latinos and asians voted for prop 8...and their numbers are far larger than the black population.

i voted for prop 8 for 2 reasons:

1) i believe in equal rights for all
2) i might want to marry a woman someday

my community, the black LGBT community, did not support prop 8.

i left the larger black community 29 years ago when i came out.

[BronxBoy]

19. I know......

And I hope this post doesn't give the impression I'm dumping on the Black LGBT community or excusing the complicity of other races.

But I'm Black so I talk about what I know.

[noiretextatique]

24. no...i appreciate what you are saying

but...i don't want the MILLIONS of other bigots who voted for the POS to get pass because all the focus on DU has been on the black bigots.

i appreciate your post, and you made some excellent points. i am feeling rather defeated right now, so hopefully i will be in a better mood tomorrow and i will post again.

thank you for standing up for your gay brothers and sisters, and for telling the ugly truth.

[Ian David]

149. We need to make sure we have good data and good analysis, NOT so we can scapegoat...

... but so that we can figure out how to fix the problem.

Right now, I think the best solution is to hold accountable all those (of all colors) who perpetrated the Big Lies.

We need to hold them up to the light of day so their followers can see them for the frauds that they are.

[Divine Discontent]

166. correction on your numerical statement

whites and asians did not vote for prop 8, they both voted against it separately as a majority. hispanics voted for it by a small majority (53%), and then AA's voted for it around 70%. I blame a lot of parties - the AA community's fear of gays/AIDS talk, church leaders of many churches talking negatively about Gay people, and the no on 8 people for not figuring out they needed to reach out to the black community in a better way. The Samuel L Jackson voice over ad didn't include any black racist history in it, just Japanese, Armenian, and latino - nothing about blacks in Cali being treated poorly.

I hope one day we don't have to worry about our rights being put up for vote! I hope you get that chance to marry a woman you love someday, without having to worry about it being stripped from you...

[noiretextatique]

173. prop 8 did not pass because more black people voted yes than no

it passed because 5,419,478 californians: white, asian, latino and black voted FOR it and only 4,908,887 californians voted against it. it passed by 510,591...i believe that's more than the total of yes votes cast by black voters. that's my problem with the "black people passed prop 8" argument. however, i do get your point, and the OP's.

i am not worried about this. i believe the supreme court will slap the bigots in their face and put this issue to rest once and for all. prop 8 will not become law.

[bluedawg12]

216. Prop 8 is over and lost- does homophobia in the black community remain?

Or are you saying that the black community-- has no work to do on homophobia?

[struggle4progress]

272. The 70% figure is highly questionable because of obvious problems with the poll:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=221&topic_id=88438&mesg_id=88438

[Ecumenist]

267. Amen, NoireTBlu!! I'm a straight black woman who voted AGAINST

prop8!! I'm also married to a white southerner! I am not pleased at all by the vitriol directed at me and mine when I don't even know anyone who voted for it, including my best friend whose father is a Baptist minister in East Palo Alto. He voted no against it too!


Frankly, I think that people were just looking for a reason to call me and people who look like me vile names.

[Toasterlad]

14. THANK You

I've been struggling with how to respond to this issue for two days, trying to figure out how to not come off like a racist just because I believe that black people, who have ALREADY BEEN THROUGH THIS SHIT, were wrong to turn their backs on us.

Obviously, black people are not soley to blame. Lord knows, there's LOTS of blame to go around. But denying the out-of-proportion homophobia in the black community, and the impact of that on this election, does not help to get anything changed.

[Tarheel_Dem]

17. BronxBoy, I agree with nearly everything you said. Being AA, and

having grown up in a Pentecostal household, I can so relate to the secrecy & the ostracization surrounding the issue of homosexuality. Being mocked and told to "act like a man", by the very same straight male relatives who have taken advantage of you in a very innapropriate way. I also agree that this is the reason for the continued escalation of HIV/AIDS in the black community. We have reached crisis level in our community because the church refuses to address these issues in a significant way.

Church people need to know that you can't just pray away the gay, and you can't shame someone into heterosexuality; it just doesn't work that way. I gave up trying to educate relatives on this issue, and it's caused me to have to distance myself from the people I love. I have lost a number of relatives to the disease, who suffered in silence, and didn't want anyone to know. That should never happen in a family, and it should never be allowed to happen in this country.

[LostinVA]

21. Very nice post -- you're one of my favorite DUers I don't "know"

btw -- I lived in NC for 17 years, and my parents still do -- I was very glad to see Liddy Dole get the hook!

[Tarheel_Dem]

27. LMAO. I think me & my co-workers celebrated that even more than the

Obama win. I can't tell you how thoroughly disgusted some of my Repub co-workers were with Liddy's "Godless" commercial. She shot herself in the foot, and I hope it takes a long time to heal. And thanks to you guys, we now have two Senators from the great state of VA. Way to go!

[LostinVA]

30. I'm in NJ now, but I helped get Webb elected -- yay!

I lived in NC through the worst of the "Helm Years Campaign." You know, where he basically called Harvey Gant the "n-word."

You are a very thoughtful poster -- major props.

[Tarheel_Dem]

39. Thanks for the props, and back at you. And thanks for Webb too. nt

[nadinbrzezinski]

31. In a more general way this happens also in other minority communities

such as Hispanics that go to very conservative Catholic mass

And for the same reasons

So the question is how do you change that dynamic regardless of where?

And my sympathies over your family members, I'd not wish AIDS even on my worst enemy

[Tarheel_Dem]

36. It is incredibly hard to fight religious dogma, and I agree about the

Hispanic community as well. I find it difficult to defend my community when they think it's okay to strip away the rights of another. They don't have to agree with someone else's sexual orientation, but they have to be taught that constitutionally, whether they like it or not, you just can't disenfranchise people. As the o.p. so eloquently & correctly stated, some blacks take offense if you equate the struggle of the GLBT community with that of the Civil Rights Movement. It's just inexplicable to me.

[nadinbrzezinski]

43. I did to a young man the other day

yesterday actually, a hispanic lady and a yong AA were chewing the fat on how it was good yes on 8 won

I told this young man, so next is separate but equal? His eyes grew big

She interrupted, but you don't understand

You are right, I should not have been able to marry my husband.. he is anglo I am latina.

By the end of the ten minute talk they got it... too late to make a difference for this election, but perhaps to the future

And yes, she brought her Padre into the equation. I suggested the church start paying taxes.

It will be a hard fought slough I fear

[Tarheel_Dem]

61. That's great to hear. Perhaps I gave up too easily, but I just don't enjoy

receiving scripture by email from my family. I hope those people really absorbed what you were trying to convey.

[nadinbrzezinski]

74. Well there are two problems actually

1.- Most folks (don't care what religion) don't understand that there is NO mention of homosexuality in the new testament and the ONLY reference in Leviticus has to do with slavery, and protecting slave boys from their masters. After all it was legal in the 7 Century BCE and it was temporary, seven years. One of those things one learns from biblical scholars. I wish they knew this, but they don't and this includes way too many preachers who use the language to justify hate of the LGBT... in some cases they have forgotten that mis interpretation was also used to justify slavery, or keeping hispanics away, and so it goes. I remember discussing this with a Jesuit many years ago (They are part of the liberal wing of the Catholic Church)

2.- I don't know whether we will ever be able to get away from this but humans are quite tribal. And tribes are closed off in many respects and always need an outside enemy, or boogeyman to retain cohesion.

As to this two young people... I put it in a term I knew they'd get... their rights... and of course the final one is that the Civil Rights movement is seen by the AA community as sui generis (Like the Holocaust is seen by many Jews), so to admit this is about civil rights, means that the Movement led by MLK was not that special (we are talking psychology here), just as when you talk to Jews about insert genocide here since oh 1900. Done that, and stepped on way too many toes.

[leftofcool]

40. "Church people need to know that you can't just pray away the gay",

But, but....I thought there was a gay rehab clinic somewhere. Does Rev Ted know about this praying and gay business? Boy, is he going to be mad when he finds out his rehab clinic was really an Ahab clinic for disillusioned whalers.

[LonePirate]

22. Well said! Now our new President needs to step forward

President-elect Obama needs to come forward and denounce this vote as well as the equally appalling votes in AR, AZ and FL. He needs to speak out against this religious based bigotry and he needs to stand up for the rights of a large bloc of citizens that helped fund his campaign, volunteered en masse for him and voted in huge numbers for him. He needs to stand up for all Americans. He needs to bring us together on this issue and he needs to drive us towards equality.

[LostinVA]

Agreed -- but I sincerely doubt that's going to happen

:sigh:

[kevinbgoode]

104. Exactly. Our rights were tossed under the bus for the larger picture. . .once again

And this was the first time I EVER gave any money to a presidential candidate. EVER. And I'm feeling embarassed and humiliated now, particularly when his own words were used in a campaign among the Black community to vote for the elimination of my constitutional rights.

It is time for the Democratic Party - and our President - to stop expecting us to support them while they continue to demand we throw our lives and our trust under the bus. This happens EVERY election cycle. Now I don't expect Obama to perform immediate miracles, but I want more than lip service from this President. My citizenship is NOT contingent upon popular vote - nor is it subjected to abrogation at the pleasure of heterosupremacists. We can no longer be asked to sacrifice our birthright as Americans in order to placate those who would twist the laws - and the Constitution - to remove them forever.

[pollo poco]

162. But he doesn't believe Gays should be able to get married

He has said so on many occasions. He agrees with the position taken by prop 8, because of his Christian faith. So does Biden. That is why neither of them will ever speak against it.

[BlueCaliDem]

258. Wrong. He came out AGAINST Prop 8 and was featured on all No to Prop 8 ads...

... here in California. So did Arnold Schwarzenegger and (to my surprise!) Sen. Diane Feinstein.

Obama is vehemently against inequality which was what Prop 8 really is.

See, Mormons have been trying to change the Constitution to include legalized polygamy. They love them some 12-year-olds or, as their "prophet" Joseph Smith stated "If they're old enough to bleed, they're old enough to breed." which, in these days of 8-year-olds getting their first cycle, is scary, but they can't get enough of them.

So, if the Constitution says it's not allowed, then to them, the GLBT shouldn't be allowed in a "misery loves company" sort of way.

[Ellen Forradalom]

197. Don't hold your breath

Na ga happen.

[ibegurpard]

23. I don't know

But if there's any "group" that can take a lion's share of the blame, it's the Mormon Church.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

25. Hey, I have a question.

What percentage of the eligibile gay voters turned out on tuesday?

[ibegurpard]

29. That's a very good question

I don't go out and socialize much anymore but when I was younger I was always dismayed by what seemed a great deal of apathy towards politics displayed by a lot of gay men. I hope that has changed.

[BronxBoy]

32. I don't know

Do they even track that demographic?

[Name removed]

60. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[mitchtv]

168. shhhh ..... if they did track it

They'd have to mention it on the news

[nadinbrzezinski]

33. When fear of confronting facts due to political correctness

took over.

There are some things that need confronting

Kudos for an excellent post

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

34. You should understand that there are straight black Americans like me who are fighting

FOR the rights of gays, lesbians, bisexuals and transsexuals...

....and please do acknowledge that there are people of color who are GLBT!

[BronxBoy]

38. So am I

And I do acknowledge it

[Raineyb]

37. Do you seriously expect that there can be a reasonable civil when the entire blame is being laid

at the foot of one ethnic group?

Yes, the numbers are terrible. But when you look at whole numbers there were more voters of other ethnicities and we're not hearing nearly as much universal condemnation. So call bullshit but scapegoating? That's not cool, it's completely counterproductive, and it pushes away the 30% who voted no. But I guess those folks shouldn't be insulted by being lumped in with the group insult right?

Regards

[BronxBoy]

42. I'm not laying the blame at the feet of our community

I said I didn't even know if the way we voted would have changed things.

But there is an undercurrent of homophobia in our community and pointing the finger at other homophobes won't change that fact

[Raineyb]

66. Agreed. And if the entire passing of Prop 8 wasn't blamed on the doorstep of our community,

you'd get no argument from me.

But that's not what I saw in the threads I'd been reading and considering the tone I'm not inclined to talk about our community's problems with folks who seem to only be interested in talking about our community only in terms of pathology.

That said, I'm not really that surprised by the numbers. The question is why are the other people? Did they assume to know how our community thought? Because our community is not nearly as progressive as the folks who post here.

Regards

[goodgd_yall]

84. Right

as you say "considering the tone" of the posts here (on DU, not just this thread), I'm not comfortable about white people talking about the black community as though they know what they're talking about. I read a lot of ignorance.
And I would feel like you "not inclined" to talk about the black community's problems. This really isn't a safe place to do that.

[Poll_Blind]

46. For bonus points, read the OP but replace the word "Black" with "Jewish".

  There's gotta be more productive ways to go about this than, as you said, trying to pin the blame on a single ethnic group. It just seems ignorant and it's disheartening, seriously disheartening, to see one oppressed minority backbite another.

  Blaming a particular ethnic or religious group for a particular vote going one way or another is too broad-brush for my comfort- considering the diversity of the electorate. I find it hard to believe some of the generalizations I've seen in this thread were made by people who've been similarly-victimized by being stereotyped by others with similar broad brushes.

PB

[nichomachus]

49. And for extra credit, read the OP

and then reread it -- or have someone read it to you.

He did not pin the blame on a single ethnic group, as you claim. In fact, he was careful not to do that, but talked about the prevalence of homophobia in the black community.

Don't put words in other people's mouths.

[goodgd_yall]

53. Exactly

I can tell you Slavic immigrants (Russian and Ukrainian mostly) were very active in supporting Prop 8. No one's on their collective ass.

[Toasterlad]

56. I Was Thinking About Those Slavic Immigrants Myself

Over the past couple years, there have been several horrific stories about the terrible homophobia rampant in that community. I wish we had a breakdown of how THEY voted. I'll bet it makes the black vote look like the turnout from West Hollywood.

[BronxBoy]

58. Exactly

I seem to remember all those pictures of Slavic immigrants getting their ass whipped and being made to work in the fields in Mississippi.

Remember Roots: Chicken Josef? :rofl:

70% of the Blacks who voted for this should have known better

[goodgd_yall]

80. Dupe

[goodgd_yall]

81. Look at it this way though

Shouldn't they, having lived under a totalitarian government (or had parents who did) have a strong appreciation for freedom and civil rights too?

[BronxBoy]

214. I don't know...

You might be right but I know zippo about the slavic community so I will defer to you

[customerserviceguy]

294. You've hit on something

they should have had some sympathy, from having lived under totalitarianism, but I suspect there's a reason they don't.

In any non-equal society, there is a "pecking order". Gay people often form the very bottom rung of that order, it's been "OK" to dump on them whenever possible.

Why wouldn't Slavic immigrants have taken that mindset with them when they immigrated here?

[LostinVA]

154. That's because the posts get deleted -- seriously

It happens all the time whenever that anti-gay community in CA is mentioned on here.

[goodgd_yall]

187. Maybe it's how they are written?

Or apparently the moderators aren't aware of the realities in California----they think we're making shit up.

I know it's always a touchy thing when you start talking about a particular group, but if that's the case there is hypocrisy going on because the discussions of the Af-Am vote have not been deleted.

[Ecumenist]

268. That was the exact point I made in another thread. I

am married to a Bohemian Czech and know alot of Ukrainians, Poles, Russians, etc and they are vehemently anti-gay.. trust me.

[EFerrari]

41. When you started blaming black voters who were only 7% ot the vote for the 100%?

I love these theads that object to homophobia while calling out black voters for what they didn't do.

:crazy:

[BronxBoy]

44. Yeah Sparky...

But 70% of that 7% voted to ban Gay marriage.

Who gives a fuck if it wasn't the deciding factor?

[JVS]

57. So how come black people get called on, when married people and people over 30 don't?

Married people supported prop by a 60-40 split. Married with kids knocks it up to 68% for prop 8.

Only among the people under 30 did a majority vote against prop 8.

What is more, all of these are decisive numbers of people.

[BronxBoy]

62. So?

You Married? Post about it

I'm Black and I'm posting about my disappointment in what a lot of Black folks did

[EFerrari]

185. That's fine and appreciated. You also posted that you didn't know if that block

passed the proposition. They didn't. They don't have the numbers to do it.

[iamthebandfanman]

233. actually he did state that in the OP

you arent paying attention to his point.

he said he knows they made up 7% of the vote , and that they arent soley to blame for it passing.

what he DID say however is that its rediculous that 70% of a people who have had to endure constant persecution would vote to take rights away from ANYBODY.

learn to read.

[EFerrari]

238. "I don't know if our community is the reason for Prop 8 passing."

Back atcha.

[iamthebandfanman]

232. because african americans should know the perils

of treating others like they arent humans.

i think thats the OPs point to why the black community should be called out on 70% of them TAKING AWAY RIGHTS from certain group of people.

THATS why he singled out black people.


i didnt know married people were a minority that suffered persecution recently.

[customerserviceguy]

296. In answer to your question about married people

Married people are a privileged group. They've had the right to marry for all of human history, and they are not necessarily expected to "understand" the way that African-Americans (and yes, Latinos) should.

[baby_mouse]

301. Thank you. NT

[EFerrari]

63. Exactly my point. Why call out black voters with their small contribution?

Thank you.

[BronxBoy]

68. Oh

So you'd only be concerned if they had more of an effect on the election

Fuck the point that 70% of the folks who did vote had no problem with it.

Not calling anyone out for this election. Calling the Black community out for it's hypocrisy.

Don't understand that...Can't help you

[EFerrari]

72. Listen, Sparky, singling out the black community is stupid.

They didn't pass this prop.

Villifying those people will not bring them over to vote with us.

If you can't understand either of those points, I wish you all the luck in the world.

[Name removed]

83. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[EFerrari]

85. Really? What is dense about asking people to be careful

when they talk about minority voters?

Do you think vilifying black voters will help get marriage rights for gay people? Do you believe we can do this without the black community?

It's "fucking dense" to believe we can.

[readmoreoften]

94. I think black people have a right to talk about what they see going on in their own community.

And I'm not sure how that's "villifying". White people call bullshit on white folks, christians criticize christians, and lord knows gay folks criticize the gay community. So why shouldn't black people be able to call out their own community in public?

[EFerrari]

186. Yes, people get to talk about their own community.

And when they choose to talk to me, I get to point out the over general aspect of their self-critique.

[readmoreoften]

196. Knock yourself out, I prefer to listen and assume they know more than I do.

[EFerrari]

198. In this case, the poster didn't know it was impossible for black voters to pass Prop 8.

I'm glad for his thoughts and reserve the right to my own.

[BronxBoy]

211. THAT IS NOT THE FUCKING POINT!

Of those that DID vote for it, 70% had no problem with it. I COULD CARE FUCKING LESS IF WE WERE THE MARGIN OF VICTORY!

Black people are contracting HIV\AIDS at a faster rate that any other group in the country because we stick our heads in the sand about these types of issues every FUCKING DAY.

DUMBASS

[EFerrari]

213. That's a separate issue.

And you raised the question that I answered, I didn't invent it.

But, thanks for the civility!

[BronxBoy]

218. Whatever

[EFerrari]

221. You know what, I respect you being mad.

But that's not what's going on on this board.

On this board, voters who probably don't connect AIDS with gay marriage at all and who were fucking lied to and and who were told Obama supported this POS are being slammed as if they passed it all by themselves. And, that didn't happen.

The media is going nuts trying to get us to hate each other and, as far as I can tell, they're succeeding.

So, I'm sorry if I'm not representing very well. But whatever problem we face in the black community, we can deal with it. We can talk to people. Mostly black women voted for this. We can talk to them. People are mostly very decent. When we try that and fail, than come back and cuss me out really good.

:)

[BronxBoy]

225. Thanks

And truth be told....I always like reading your posts.

But my lovely wife, whom I love more than I love myself, has to get up each morning and take a cocktail of HIV drugs because our community wants to keep certain things on the downlow

[EFerrari]

228. ((((((((((((Bronx Boy Family))))))))))))))))))

I hope we learn to do better, for all our families.

[BronxBoy]

230. LOL

You were in my ass on my New Yorker Cover OP. Respectful though

But it was all good. And yes, I was drunk.

:rofl:

[EFerrari]

231. Just another day on DU.

:rofl:

[Withywindle]

138. The OP IS black.

He's not ranting about some vague "those people". He's frustrated with homophobia in the community that HE HIMSELF belongs to.

Whites didn't vote 70%-30% for Prop 8.
Latinos didn't vote 70%-30% for Prop 8.
Asians didn't vote 70%-30% for Prop 8.

A-A's DID, and the OP is a black person who's upset about THAT.

[EFerrari]

179. Yes, I know that.

[QC]

264. Good thing he has a concerned white woman here to tell him

what he is and is not permitted to say about problems he might perceive within his own community.

[EFerrari]

306. Race bait much?

[QC]

317. LOL! For you to accuse someone of race baiting

is like Dean Martin calling someone a drunk.

[Jamastiene]

326. Equal rights means equal responsibility. n/t

[tblue]

45. I am black, straight, and voted NO on 8.

I agree with you. This is what I say to my brothers and sisters:


Persecution has no place in the Constitution.

I don't want a church in Utah to define the Constitution of the state of California.

I choose to live in California. If I wanted to live in a state run by Mormons, I'd move to fucking Utah!

How righteous is it to go through a door that someone held open for you only to slam it in the next person's face?

For once, we are not the most vulnerable, maligned, marginalized, persecuted minority.It is now OUR turn to be the bigger person. This time, we get to be the champions.

Why would we ever want to treat ANYone as second-class citizens?

[BronxBoy]

48. Thank you

With all of the problems facing our community, Gay marriage should be buried on page 1,000 somewhere

[pollo poco]

174. thank you bronx boy and tblue

T Blue, I think you have identified the reason that so many GLBT posters have been upset by the AA vote on this issue. When I was helping to hold the door open, I was not holding it for AA people. I was holding it open for civil rights for all people. It is frustrating to be so misunderstood on that. It is frustrating to see how many members of all communities don't see that civil rights are for everyone. Everyone hurts when their own rights are violated. Why don't they see the pain when it happens to others? Even Barack Obama has said over and over that we are not included in his agenda of equality. Marriage is for Barack and Michelle. But not for us and the loves of our lives. Why? I struggle to understand this. And I come up short.

I personally think the problem is religion. And I wonder when it will be ok to call bullshit on that.

Bronx Boy- you are right: the same Bible was once used by slave owners to justify slavery.

Again I struggle to understand this. And again I come up short.

Thank you both for seeing how hurtful this is. And thanks to all of you who see it.

[nichomachus]

47. Put me down as one who blames the clergy

I don't blame the voters as much as the people who whipped them up with fear, lies, and distortions.

The devil's work here was done in the churches. Most people -- of whatever race -- who go to church are good people trying to do the right thing. They look to their "spiritual leaders" to help them, inform them, and give them good advice. Maybe they put too much trust in those leaders, but the leaders hold themselves out as having "the truth."

And because the leaders seek the trust of their followers, once the followers give that trust, the leaders assume an overwhelming obligation to be truthful -- underline overwhelming.

In this case, they were not. They lied. They lied blatantly. They purposely deceived their followers. They betrayed the trust they were given.

That is inexcusable.

I'm not absolving the voters for not getting better information, but for many of them, they went to the best place they knew and they were deceived by people who should have known better.

I put this in the same class as teachers who sexually abuse students or adults who abuse children in their care. The clergy had a position of power and extreme trust. They abused that power and they violated the trust of the people who look to them for guidance and truth.

[Jed Dilligan]

50. I think a lot of black homophobia is rooted in

the massive incarceration rates for young black men. Prison-bound young men put up a homophobic front for survival, and they are (unlike the suburban Christians who lie up at night thinking about it, for SOME reason...) RIGHTFULLY scared of being forced into homosexual acts. Their attitudes affect other men in their schools and neighborhoods. Meanwhile, many black women feel they suffer from a diminished pool of male partners and do not want to lose even more black men to, well, black men. These two social facts, rooted largely on the racism of the War on Drugs and the legal system, make the community ripe for homophobic rhetoric from preachers and others. This is just a theory of mine, but I'm pretty well convinced of it. Traditional black communities from before the Reagan/post-Reagan War on Black America were somewhat more accepting of gay people than white communities in the same era.

[goodgd_yall]

51. Maybe it's a generational thing

But being 54, having lived in Jim Crow Mississippi as a child and growing up in the days of blatant, uncoded racism against blacks, I find it very uncomfortable and dangerous when blacks are made a scapegoat. My point has been that it's the religious that voted for 8, doesn't matter what ethnic group or race. If blacks as a group attend church more than whites (let's suppose, although I have no statistics if that's true) then they will be more strongly against gay marriage because the message that homosexuality is a sin is drummed into them in sermons and religious media, not to mention right-wing talk shows.

[BronxBoy]

55. Let me be clear here...

I am not scapegoating our people. I take issue with the fact that a lot of Black folks justify homophobia. And a lot of them use a religious justification. And we should know better.

[goodgd_yall]

65. Yes, your OP is clear

In mentioning scapegoating, I was responding to the many posts by DUers that I've read today.

[BronxBoy]

70. Oh OK

:toast:

[goodgd_yall]

78. BTW

Thank you for your support of the rights of ALL of us! :toast:

[ecstatic]

54. the exit polls were flawed. nt

[BlueButGlad2]

59. In helping Obama I never appreciated that I was costing gay people their civil rights

I am white and gay. I teared up when Obama won. 11 pm Eastern. I remember the words on the TV screen. The last time I was that happy watching TV was the final out of the 2004 World Series, when the Red Sox finally won after decades of being denied. On both occasions I had this feeling of joy and disbelief. Is it really true? I heard blacks saying things like now they really felt like they were part of America, and I was so moved and happy for the country and the world. Really, really moved.

This whole Prop 8 thing throws a bit of a blanket on it all. I wouldn't change the outcome of this election of course, not for a second. It's a tremendous thing. What irony though. Obama brings out probably enough additional blacks to swing the Prop 8 vote to go against gay people. While celebrating such a milestone in black civil rights, inclusiveness, equality, having the rights that all the rest of America has, they have helped to deny a basic civil right to California gays.

It's just sad. And I know, many blacks did stand with gay people. Many whites did vote against us. It also seems likely though that if Obama was not running, gay marriage would still be legal in California. In helping Obama I never appreciated that I was costing gay people their civil rights.

I got an email tonight from an older guy in San Francisco who remembers going door to door years ago in black neighborhoods to register voters so that they could defeat a california proposition that, in effect, would allow realtors to discriminate against black people. He remembered that today as black people helped the state of california take away his right to marry

[JVS]

82. That's not necessarily the case. Obama also brought out the under 30 vote.

Vote by Age
Total
YesNo
18-29 (20%)
39%
61%



30-44 (28%)
55%
45%



45-64 (36%)
54%
46%



65 and Older (15%)
61%
39%

http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2008/results/polls/#val=CAI01p1

[EFerrari]

87. I wish some of you clueless ones would look at the numbers before you blame

black voters.

Seriously. What the fuck. There were three times as many white voters voting yes on this POS.

Voting for Obama has little or nothing to do with this.

I'm a white straight woman who worked both campaigns. And looking at the way black voters are being blamed here makes me sick.

[Poll_Blind]

99. I don't get it either. Really.

:wtf:

PB

[EFerrari]

183. The @sshole media has set up a dogfight between gay people and colorful people.

They've hyped this misleading stuff since election night and people are so upset, they're buying into it.

[goclark]

113. Thank you ~ I'm a Black straight woman and I worked both

campaigns and I'm having a hard time taking all this heat and being put in the "bad people" basket.

We can either EDUCATE in a different way or keep blaming the Black Church and Black People.

I know that is not the way to go.

Let's face it, that YES on 8 AD was damn misleading and on 24 Seven.

Those WHITE people all over Hawthorne Blvd. waving yellow signs with huge YES on 8 signs Worked, damn it they worked.

I was screaming at them with my car window down and they were on every single corner for miles!

It worked folks! It worked on those that did not seek to understand and they won't understand by getting mad at them. They will dig in deeper and turn off even more.

I go to a huge Black Church and our minister always speaks in a positive way about ALL people. He never speaks about how to VOTE but about how to LOVE ALL people.

I can tell you that getting disappointed in how the AA and Latino communittee voted is real but anger is not the answer.
Education is the Answer IMO.

Let's March!

[EFerrari]

182. That's right, goclark! It did work. We have to do MORE than the right wing

because we're right, not less. :hi:

[BlueButGlad2]

135. You could be right. Sorry if I offended you sfexpat2000.

I didn't really look at the numbers beyond what the papers said, that blacks were voting in significantly higher percentages against gay civil rights than the average voter. It may be that the numbers, when you do the math, wouldn't make a difference if Obama was running vs, say Hillary as the Dem nominee.

That doesn't take away from my disappointment though. I was and am so happy that this, Obama's election, happened for black America and all of America. I'm disappointed that those blacks who didn't support equal rights for gays couldn't see that we both want and deserve the same respect. You would think if anyone would know that it would be black people, given their struggle.

Sorry if I offended you sfexpat2000. Didn't mean to.

[EFerrari]

180. I'm sorry that I was rude myself. The media is having a field day

setting us against each other and that, on top of this thing passing, is so painful to me.

Here in CA, I learned we did 10 pts BETTER this time than last time this was put to a vote (an action I obviously disagree with). And that's WITH the big turn out of black voters.

Black anti gay marriage voters = 7% of CA voters. That tells me we need to invest more in this community.

[BlueButGlad2]

192. Congrats on the work you've done

Congrats on the work you've done, pro-Obama, and pro-gay rights. We can't always win them all, but we did win a big one

[Liberalynn]

64. Bravo

[OwnedByFerrets]

67. Great Post!!

[Dont_Bogart_the_Pretzel]

71. Thank you for bringing this up

My roommate brought this up yesterday and said what you said. I'm glad you got this thread started because I/we could not have worded it as good as you did. :thumbsup:

[endthewar]

86. This will definitely change people's hearts and minds

No wonder gay marriage was banned. I doubt that the Mormons have this much vitriolic hate when they present their opposition to gay marriage.

By the way, that was 70% in California. Why aren't you complaining about the large percentage of whites who voted to ban gay marriage in other states, like Florida.

The bottom line is that the pro-gay marriage movement hasn't made a compelling case illustrating the differences between civil unions and gay marriage. Most Americans support civil unions, most Americans don't support gay marriage.

Some of you people need to step outside of that tiny little bubble you're living in every once and a while.

[MtUpWithWngsAsEgles]

90. I agree...

they have to do a better job of educating people about their cause.

I am against homosexuality but if I ever have the chance would vote No to something like Prop 8. I understand very little about the opposing sides but do know that it is not my job to judge my brothers and sisters. People should be able to live as they please as long as it does not infringe on the rights of others.

[readmoreoften]

98. Well thank you for not voting against my humanity, but why are you "against homosexuality"?

Why are you "against" me being happy and in love and building a life with the most wonderful person in the world?

[MtUpWithWngsAsEgles]

101. Well...

because I love women. You can live as you please.

[freethought gal]

105. I Love Women Too

And I'm a woman myself. However, I am not "against" heterosexuality. I'm overjoyed when people find a partner - the sex part doesn't bother me a bit. There is more to homosexuality than just the sex thing. I don't understand why religious fundamentalists get hung up on that ONE part of the relationship - gays and lesbians actually love each other too, ya know. And all that other mundane stuff that goes along with life.

[readmoreoften]

123. That makes two of us. Except I love one woman: my partner. I'm not against heterosexuality.

You can live as you please, too. But no one is voting on whether you get to visit the women you love in the hospital. People are voting on whether I get to visit the woman I love in the hospital.

[MtUpWithWngsAsEgles]

279. Like I said before...

I think that is wrong. People should be able to live as they please as long as they are not hurting others. I love my wife and prefer the opposite sex rather than the same sex. I don't understand no other way and will not pretend that I do.

I wish you luck in your fight for equality and pray that the hearts of those against it are softened.

My original comment may not have come off right. i typed it when I was rushing off to run some errands.

[Name removed]

97. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[freethought gal]

106. Yeah, I totally understand!

No wonder gay marriage was banned. I doubt that the Mormons have this much vitriolic hate when they present their opposition to gay marriage.

Yeah. Don't you hate when gays and lesbians get all huffy about their rights and stuff?

:eyes:

It's amazing what some people interpret as "hate." But yeah, 70% of the black community voting yes on Prop 8 wasn't - even though they make up only 10% of the population of California. OK then.

Some of you people need to step outside of that tiny little bubble you're living in every once and a while.

Maybe you should try pulling your head out of you ass.

[Maven]

119. Why are you on every fucking thread supporting the bigots

and opposing equal marriage?

"I doubt that the Mormons have this much vitriolic hate when they present their opposition to gay marriage."

Are you fucking kidding me asshole?

[LostinVA]

155. I am so glad for ignore

(who is it?)

[Starry Messenger]

205. He sleeps with the fishes.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=user_profiles&u_id=223241

[La Lioness Priyanka]

151. fuck you. your defense of those who are bigots in inexcusable.

in everythread on this subject you pop up just to defend bigots.

[jonnyblitz]

320. I hate seeing this thread sink!

:hi:

[racaulk]

236. OMG, I am so glad this CREEP is finally gone!

Thank you mods for finally putting this jerk away, once and for all!

[Malikshah]

315. People in fact are-- and by the way-- we have made a compelling case

and it is insulting to blame the victim.

Bigotry doesn't see reason.

As for the compelling case-- the ads against Amendment 2 in Florida focused on senior citizens who had domestic partnerships, the TV spots did too. It didn't matter because people see "marriage" and focus on the GLBT.

As for why some folks are singling out the African American community? 70-30 For/Against in CA.
An African-American was voted as President, not a fundamentalist Christian, Latino/a, etc.
The disparity and hypocrisy apparent in the numbers w/ regard to basic civil rights is more stark.

[Fresh_Start]

88. Thank you

no one who voted for Prop 8 should be proud of their actions or the results.

[MtUpWithWngsAsEgles]

89. Hmmm

You do know that slavery discussed in the Bible was not the same slavery that was practiced in the US.

And how does the homosexual issue compare to the Civil Rights issues?

[freethought gal]

103. Answers

You do know that slavery discussed in the Bible was not the same slavery that was practiced in the US.

Well, that didn't stop pro-slavery advocates from using the Bible as an excuse to keep blacks enslaved.

And how does the homosexual issue compare to the Civil Rights issues?

Easy. The right to exist as a human being in a free society pretty much sums it up.

[readmoreoften]

122. How does the LGBT issue compare to the civil rights issue?

Civil rights doesn't mean ending slavery. Civil rights means making sure that all groups are treated equally under the law.

1) From the 1920s on, gay men and lesbians were arrested and committed by the state and experimented on by scientists. From Wikipedia "Medical attempts to change homosexuality included surgical treatments such as hysterectomy, ovariectomy, clitoridectomy, castration,< vasectomy,[13> pudic nerve surgery, and lobotomy. Substance-based methods included hormone treatment, pharmacologic shock treatment, and treatment with sexual stimulants and sexual depressants. Throughout the 20th century, gay men and lesbians have been arrested and subjected to having their genitals burned and cut off--often for belonging to underground gay rights organizations.

2) Legalized dress codes in many states led to arrests of many lesbians from the 1940s to 1970s as did prohibitions on "same-sex dancing." Upon arrest, the brutality of the police against gays and lesbians was (surprise, surprise) not much different than the brutality against other oppressed populations. Gang rape and other assaults were certainly not unknown. For example, Leslie Feinberg described in Stone Butch Blues being forced to choose between giving a police officer a blowjob during a club raid, or being forced to go into the bathroom and eat his shit.

3) The numerous crimes against LGBT people aren't classified as "crimes against LGBT people" because in many areas the concept of "LGBT people" does not exist. This minimizes the number of official count of violence against gays because of the state's refusal to actual count the incidences of violence. Here are a few images:



best friend murdered for being gay

"about 10 young people followed the women out and began screaming anti-gay epithets, spitting on them and then beating them. The angry gang who followed them outside hurled slurs and f-bombs at the women. ''They started to scream (expletive) dykes, f-bomb lesbians!'' Smith-Malave said Wednesday."

http://www.washblade.com/2007/1-12/news/police/Broussard,%20Paul.%20jpg.jpg "His friends escaped with minor injuries. Broussard was beaten, kicked and stabbed to death. Ten teens were convicted in his death."

beaten to death

holding up memory of attack victim

beaten to death because his dad thought he was going to grow up to be gay.

ttp:// beaten for being gay

popular singer gets out of hospital after gay bashing.

"Dwan Prince, 28, who was beaten in June, has impaired speech and spends most of his time in a wheelchair."

beaten into a coma

stabbed to death for being a lesbian

*********
I really don't think that groups like this help much.





**********
As a lesbian, my partner and I face financial hardship that straight people don't (although my partner is allowed to buy me insurance, any medical benefits given to me are considered taxable 'added income'), state-sanctioned job discrimination (I can be fired for being gay), and having any assaults or even my murder being covered up by police because the municipality I live in doesn't recognize "hate crimes." If my partner is injured, any hospital that wishes to do so can bar me from seeing her on her death bed. Even when we have been together for 50 years, an estranged brother in-law or a nephew she's never met will be called in as her next of kin and if the relative is a religious fundamentalist, they can bar me from ever seeing her again.

[bluedawg12]

136. readmoreoften- I think this is important and needs mention

I hope you can find the time to post this as a full thread.

I was going to write something about the mistaken notion that gya rights are about hurt feelings or social snubs.

I wrote a quick piece today on how we are not able to hide, how we can't pass as straight.

Your's fits nicely, as to the consequences of being identified as gay in the real world.

[hangman86]

229. My Grandpa was a Cop

and somewhat of a homophobic. He had grown up in a staunch Irish-Catholic family and believed that the gay community was going against God's intentions. However, one night he was called in on a domestic disturbance which turned out to be a homicide. A man had invited another man who was gay, over to his house without the knowledge of his sexual orientation. The latter had mistakenly judged the reason for the invite and began coming on to the homeowner. Utterly repulsed by this action the straight man began viciously attacking his guest, and beat him to death.

After learning what had happened some of my grandpa's collegues began talking about distorting the facts of the case to ensure the man would go free. After all it was only a gay man who died and his perverted lifestyle had led him to his fate. My grandpa flat out refused to join them. When the puzzeled officers asked him why he said "I may not agree with their lifestyle but they're still human beings and and all human beings deserve equal protection under the law."

I wish the black community would see things the way he did. As much as I would like for them to accept the gay lifestyle as well as support their causes, they should at least know that every human being is entitled to same rights and freedoms as any other. This is not a war over who has been more oppressed in the past. It is a fight for common fairness and equality.

[MtUpWithWngsAsEgles]

281. Make the case...

Is this case being made in the black communities? Or do you just expect to see blacks support this cause by default. You have to make your case!

[MtUpWithWngsAsEgles]

280. This is sad...

Why is this information not being circulated across the US? I guarentee you that 80% of people voting for Prop 8 don't know this.

What confuses me is that the fight seems to be about getting married. It seems to me that there are bigger issues that need to be fought for.

This type of information needs more circulation. I believe this is the information that could soften people's hearts.

[LostinVA]

156. "The Homosexual Issue" -- careful, your very obvious bias is showing

STFU

:eyes:

[MtUpWithWngsAsEgles]

283. STFU?

How intelligent?

Anyone who disagrees with you should shut up. So who is bias?

[nadinbrzezinski]

172. Your bias is showing

but a little education is in order

The ONLY mention of men laying with boys in Leviticus is about SLAVERY and protecting the boys from their masters in a society that actually accepted the gay.

What was abhorrent to god back then was the FORCING of the master over the slave

Betcha you didn't even know that, and ye are in good company... since 99% of preachers don't know that, and 99% of lay don't either

There is more, there is no mention of homosexuality in the Christian Canon (read new testament) either

Now how about this? This is WHY this is about civil rights

go read the 14th ammemdment... and buy a fricking clue

[MtUpWithWngsAsEgles]

284. Good attitude...

have a nice life.

[Rockholm]

195. Are you series?

[MtUpWithWngsAsEgles]

285. Yes.

Naive as well. But I wanted to see how people would respond. I have received a lot of informative responses. As well as being bashed as a bias bigot. I choose to ignore the ones that say STFU and get a fricking clue. What is 'fricking' anyway? I listen to those who can actually present intellectual responses as to why the support a cause.

[BronxBoy]

212. hmmm

Wish you were around to tell this to those motherfuckers who were whipping the shit out of our ancestors?

[MtUpWithWngsAsEgles]

286. Come on now...

Yes the Bible was used to oppress my ancestors and teach them that they should accept slavery. This was ignorance... I could go on...

But also remember that when blacks were able to read the Bible for themselves they identified with God's people fighting against oppression. This lead to 'freedom revolutions'.

I say this to say that just because people use the Bible to teach that something is wrong don't always make them right. But you have to have an organized plan to achieve your goals. What is the plan to achieve your goal?

If you just bash everyone with opposite opinions, then you are losing votes needed to defeat Prop 8's.

[goclark]

91. BronxBoy ~ This sister from CA voted NO!

K and R for your post that was honest and I do agree with you.

I certainly understand why the African American and Latino support of YES on 8 makes blood boil.

As an African American, liberal and Christian, I'm sure I will get flamed but I will comment anyway.

I was hurt to the core about this issue.

I had a dear uncle that meant the world to me.He died at 83 yrs, old and he was Gay. I know the heartache that he suffered for the lack of justice and the fear that he had that people would find out that he was Gay. I knew that others knew but I never spoke about it to him.

That broke my heart and so I understand the anger.

Now -- Since I live in CA, I expressed my strong support for NO on 8 to all of my friends and I was met with a disappointing response from several.

Not friends from my church. The issue,was never discussed at my large ( 3000 members) Methodist Church. Voting for Obama was never discussed either.

But I was shocked and disappointed in other friends.
Please remember I'm just the messanger.....

This is why they were saying they voted Yes--- 1)"The Bible didn't want people to be homosexual."

Believe me I argued but I never turned one around on the issue to my knowledge.

2)" They want to teach my grandchildren to be Gay in school"

Remember I'm just the messenger but there was a strong, constantly running AD that spilled that lie all day and night on TV

Now --- All of the major politicians, African American, sent out massive flyers and the NAACP( local and national) strongly urging NO on 8! I was pleased beyond measure to receive the flyer and felt that would turn the tide.

That same mailer had a photo of OBAMA and he was strongly saying NO on 8.

Now, all that said, many African American men in the 50-60 yr. range are stupid enough to believe that they are MACHO. Yes, get angry if you want to but that is what they were taught to be --" be strong, walk like a man, talk like a man!" Of course we know they are stuck on stupid but there goes some YES votes.

They should be thinking about slavery and how we were killed for Civil Rights issues -- but they are not putting that together.
They want to be "Manly and Tough."

Many Latinos of that same generation have the same stupid Macho mentality.

I will continue to support the issue and continue to educate everyone that I can reach.

With everyone in the struggle for Justice for ALL!

goclark

[bliss_eternal]

95. hey go clark

:hi:

Really hard to sway the sisters who are knee deep in their bible, isn't it?

I've found a few that aren't even "all that" religious--but it's just a general understanding for them to be "anti-gay." I really don't get that. I was talking to a co-worker one day about talk shows. I was telling her I was over Oprah, and just couldn't watch all the celebrity fawning anymore. So she said,"...you should watch Ellen! She's so funny, it's a good show....well, even though she's gay."

I was really taken aback. I'd never heard this woman utter anything anti-gay, and had no idea what to do with her comment. Other than to share how much Ellen adores and supports the black community, and all she did for Katrina. She kind of seemed embarassed after I told her that.

:(

Oh and on edit--lmao regarding the 50-60 yr old black male, macho dude. :rofl: That generation of black men are a crack up!

[goclark]

108. I think that generation is lost in the 60's

They are still listening to the Platters and in general have not kept up with changing issues.

I saw a play in the 70's, done in a Black theater in Los Angeles. The cast was sensational and it was a take off on Guess Who is Coming To Dinner.

Instead of the "dinner guest" being Black, the guest was Gay.

There was a line in the play that said something like, "The homosexual population is about 1 in ten people that you know."

I didn't believe it at the time because that was an era when homosexuals didn't come out because they were afraid to do so.

However, after that play I would casually try to figure out who would be the 1 out of the 10 people in a group.

I could usually figure it out and I still can.

On my staff of 60 there were 6/7.
That's why this entire issue is so insane.

These are our brothers, sisters,parents aunts,uncles,cousins,best friends,neighbors that we know and love and until brave people like Ellen came out, they had to pretend.

Let Justice Flow Like a Mighty Stream On This Issue.

March! Picket and above all we must continue to educate!

Take it to the Streets and to the Courts!

goclark

[BronxBoy]

141. Hey GoClark

Long time, no see.

Hope you are doing well.

Thanks for your post. A lot of people responding to my thread seem to think I am joining the ranks of those who are placing blame soley at the feet of Black folk. I don't know if that's the case and quite frankly, could care less.

What I have been trying to point out and what you post eloquently states is that there is a level of homophobia that percolates within the Black community and that I have no problem if our community is called on it.

[robinlynne]

92. wow.

[yardwork]

96. Wow. Thank you.

[Kajsa]

100. BronxBoy, without a doubt, this is one

of the best posts I've read in a long, long time!

Excellent! And Thank You!!

:)

[kevinbgoode]

102. Step Number ONE: when you celebrate James Baldwin,

refuse to accept the "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" policy. And then ask them how they'd be treating James Baldwin in the ballot box last Tuesday. Hypocrisy knows no color.

[CreekDog]

107. Stop with the damned broad brushes!

what the hell is the matter with you singling out an entire race of people for criticism?

would you like to be told that you are all responsible for (fill in the blank) that some in the gay community do?

keep this up and i reconsider donating to causes.

you will not make an enemy of another group of people and single them out on the basis of their skin color.

[yardwork]

110. Did you read the OP? It sounds like he's black.

[CreekDog]

116. doesn't make it okay

and if that's what makes the statements okay, then what of all the responses from people that aren't black?

there is a right way to deal with this kind of discussion and this ain't it.

[goclark]

145. Thank you ~ when my people are all painted

with a brush when we need to seek to have them understand, that becomes a problem for me.

We can tell by the vote that "some" African Americans and "some" Whites and "some" Latinos need to be educated.


One thing that worked in the Civil Rights movement was that AAmericans joined hands with thousands of White men/women that came together in their cause.

These were WHITE children/grandchildren of SLAVES that were joining hands with SLAVE OWNERS families to bring Justice to America.

Please I beg of those who are angry with AA, stop it!

It is not good, in my opinion, for the cause!

If it turns me off, a liberal African American that has supported this cause with money and might,that is a problem.

[CreekDog]

109. Please LET THIS SINK

:banghead:

the idea that black folks have to be corralled and controlled into a certain sort of behavior and thought is offensive. :grr:

so white people voted for it in fewer numbers, but how much less? so you single out black folks, but white folks because they voted less-bigoted by say, 20%, are off the hook?

what the hell. this is wrong.

[yardwork]

111. You keep kicking it. Also, I think you are misunderstanding the data.

[CreekDog]

112. i only responded to encourage people to stop this crap

and i did see the data, but it is the votes in favor of Prop. 8 that bother me, not the group of people those votes belong to.

and i'm done kicking this thread, i think this thing should drop like a stone.

[yardwork]

114. You seem to be having some kind of meltdown or else the time of your life.

Either way, you keep kicking this thread.

[CreekDog]

115. i'm angry

i'm angry about Prop. 8 but i'm angry also at the response of some that they single out whole races for criticism, as if the black community is a monolith.

have you considered that the cause has nothing to do with race, perhaps church attendance has more to do with it?

[foxfeet]

117. Thank you.

I appreciate the honesty and insight of your post. Nonetheless, for me the salient questions include: a) why did ANYBODY vote for this proposition and b) how can we combat the homophobia of the voters and the outright lies of the political opposition? Obviously, there needs to be a multi-pointed approach, with each of us addressing the issues peculiar to our own ethnic communities. I don't hold any ethnic group responsible for the passage of the proposition. I do hold the RW religious cesspool accountable, whatever their ethnicity.

[GreenFiles]

118. Wow. Great post.

I agree with you.

[TheKentuckian]

120. The whole corruption of blood mentality stinks

and the forgetting that it was a whole lot of white folks that stirred the pot in the first place is stupid. White people started the mess, lead it, and financed it as well but they're being called out on religion not race.

Well, it was white people that fucked you and organized efforts to disenfranchise gays. Calling them Mormons is just a security blanket and connecting this to supporting Obama is pretty small minded.

I'll also advise that the if you don't know then you should and fuck you attitude is way counter productive.
If you care enough to fly off the handle at any remark that isn't a perfect reflection of your own then you should care enough to educate people to your viewpoint rather than wildly firing in all directions.

Knowing what the word "IF" would be helpful too. It is a hypothetical, it is a word the assumes certain conditions. The continuous "that's not the way it is" breaks down any attempt at a conversation and becomes a fucking edict from an equal, which most will automatically rankle at.

[mzmolly]

129. Perfect description of the problem. "The corruption of blood mentality."

Thank you for that.

[readmoreoften]

124. Thank you for your support, let me add that I call bullshit on 100% of those who voted yes.

In fact I think it's racism to NOT call bullshit on anti-gay bigots simply because they're black. As indicated by the numbers, there is a problem with anti-gay sentiment in the black community, and its black LGBT folks who are most often on the wrong end of the baseball bat when it turns physical. I think there is some comfort in keeping everything neat and imagining homophobes as simply an extension of the white Christian redneck. Anti-gay acts need to be challenged in EVERY community, because there are gay people in every community.

[Mampula]

125. The fight isn't over

There will be another opportunity in 2010.

[newtothegame]

126. Unfortuneatly at DU, Prop 8 got the shaft to an AA being elected president...

So many DU'ers are so self-loathing over slavery a century and half ago that an AA being elected president in the face of no physical barriers is more important than ACTUAL PHYSICAL BARRIERS being put up against GLBT folk's FUNDAMENTAL RIGHTS more and more EVERY DAY.

[mzmolly]

127. The problem I have is that we appear to expect more from the Black Community

than any other? If "whites" had voted against Prop 8 in larger margins, would we have a thread suggesting they are a monolithic group that can speak for one another? I.E. "Why did 55% of whites support Prop 8?" No.

For anyone to suggest that a particular race is responsible for prop 8 passing is hypocritical and regressive in my opinion.

[Pithlet]

140. Those were my thoughts too. I don't think the OP means to scapegoat, though.

Reading the OP and thoughts from other members of the black community, I think there really is an issue there. But you're right, I don't think that means we as outsiders judge them harsher for it, or make their community a scapegoat. That won't help at all. Those have been my thought with some of the more harsh threads on the subject here on DU. I think the AA community does tend to get judged harsher than others for the same transgressions. I don't see the Latino community getting nearly the same flak, for example. I don't think the OP means to scapegoat the community. I think it's a plea to his own community to effect change. I hope there are more like him, and that the AA community is listening. Clearly, some change there is needed.

[LostinVA]

157. MInorities voting to take away minority rights is especially upsetting and repulsive

I will include Hispanic Christians in that, too.

So, yeah, any of us who are minorities, esepcially those historically abused (gays, women, blacks, handicapped, etc.), and who spit on fellow minorities SHOULD be held to a higher standard -- and condemned. Like those idiot Log Cabin Republicans.

[customerserviceguy]

298. Part of the problem here

is that this is one of the very few situations (perhaps the only one, because I cannot think of any others) where the civil rights of a particular group have been put up for a public vote. No, it's certainly not the first time that rights have been denied in the law, but I can't recall a time when that wasn't done by either a legislature or some sort of executive order.

It's gotta hurt like hell to have your fellow citizens tell you you're a second-class person, it's gotta sting especially hard when some of those citizens are ones who have not been part of the ruling privileged class.

[qwlauren35]

128. Go for it... but it cuts both ways.

If the GBLT community can call bullshit on us, can we call bullshit on them? I doubt it.

The GBLT community is the new poster puppy for endangered species, and therefore inviolate, certainly in DU.

It is not acceptable in DU to try to look at both sides and find a compromise position. Moderates are not welcome.

The GBLT community is upset about Proposition 8, and I think repealing something that the Supreme Court has put in place is a gigantic mess.

However, I also know that we bullshit black folks helped give Obama North Carolina. In fact, millions of people who voted for Obama would not have if Biden had supported gay marriage.

Run the numbers on interracial dating (black/white) in the straight community vs. the gay community, and you'll see that their community contains a measure of racism, just as ours contains a measure of homophobia.

We are both communities with "issues, phobias, neuroses". It's just not politically correct to say so.

[Book Lover]

137. LGBT community inviolate at DU?

:rofl:

Go into the GLBT forum and click on the threads that link out to the homophobic comments here. You'll be a while...

[LostinVA]

152. You are either totally baiting, have your head in the sand, or are the most naive poster on DU

Homophobia is worse than sexism on DU, and that's saying alot.

Guess how quick posters posting against interracial marriage would be TSed?

This place looks like a Phelps Family Reunion sometimes.

[Tigress DEM]

130. DU is about facts and NOT about buying into right wing hypocrisy

California Census Information

http://quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/states/06000.html


FACT: Black people make up 6.7% of the population in California.

So the likelihood that by themselves they could have pushed PROP 8 through is a right wing lie.

There is NO WAY that 6.7% of the population could have produced the numbers that are being blamed on them.


I would not have voted for prop 8 if I lived in Cali and I believe GLBT folks are wonderful people and DESERVE it ALL. I hope prop 8 gets thrown out on that legal technicality.

If GLBT want to compare their struggle to the black experience, they need to fight the fights they can win and once on firmer ground fight again. None of the civil rights struggle has been pretty and victories come in piece meal.

Even defeat can be turned into victory, but we have to talk about the issues and strategies when we're up against full out hatred and bigotry instead of allowing the emotional component to derail our unity and get us fighting with each other.

In the third debate and in the Vice Presidential debate, there was agreement on both sides that GLBT individuals, couples and families deserved equal treatment under the law. The "word" was still taboo, but both side agreed a person should be able to be with their loved one in the hospital for instance. All this talk about bi-partisan should be going the OTHER way, how much is the OTHER side willing to lay down the laws to treat ALL people the same and quit making up straw men to take the blame?

I am white and I support GLBT in their quest to get equal treatment under the law. In my opinion civil unions with ALL the rights is the place to START. To get EVERY STATE to give the equal rights NOW and worry about that word later or even go national to get the equal rights in binding legislation.

Argue about that word in other venues, but get the LAWS on the books giving GLBT their full rights through civil unions and anti-hate crimes legislation.

We are 10-15 years away from being able to get people to settle down about the word "marriage" and right now every time the fight is about the word and not the rights we're tacking on days, weeks and months of resistence on the end of that total.

Drop that word (for now) and steam roll over it all to get the rights down on the books. Then come back and fight for the word later.



(spelling)

[noiretextatique]

160. yesterday, someone claimed that black women are responsible for prop 8 passing

because IF some black women did not vote for it, it would not have passed :eyes: if some white people, some latino people, and some asian people didn't vote for it...it wouldn't have passed either.
clearly there is an issue with homophobia in some black communities, just as homophobia is an issue in other communities. thanks for the numbers...it's time people put this in perspective.
it's really DUMB to blame 6.7% of the population for passing prop 8.

[BronxBoy]

227. Really

That is just ignorant.

[klook]

278. THANK YOU

How could 6.7% of the population have been the deciding factor on Prop 8? (And, since maybe 60% of the population voted on Prop 8, that would translate to about 4%.)

The argument that "Blacks passed Prop 8" leads straight into a right-wing trap. They want to split us with internecine racial warfare. Cross-cultural solidarity among Democrats spells doom for the Republicans, so they will work tirelessly to organize us into a circular firing squad.

The solution is to keep working for wins where we can and build on them. We didn't go from legalized lynching to electing an African-American president in one year. We're on the road toward legalizing gay marriage nationwide now. Let's all keep pushing until we get there.

[okieinpain]

131. wow, very well said. n/t.

[file83]

133. This is stupid - why don't we just let gay people get married and move on...

Seriously. This isn't a difficult concept to pass judgment on.

What is so disgusting and blatantly homophobic is the argument that it spoils the "sanctity" of straight marriage.

That explicitly implies that gay marriage is somehow wrong in a fundamental way. WTF?!? Two people love eachother who want to become family, so they get married. NOTHING WRONG WITH LOVE!!!!

Whatever, I feel like I'm living on an island with a bunch of stupid fucking monkeys.

[Withywindle]

139. Thank you!

I appreciate this so much. Not least of all because many of the people I've loved the most in my life, who happened to be queer, were ALSO black. It's not an either-or issue. I'm bi-ethnic and bi-national and bisexual, and wow, does that liminal existence upset a lot of people.

I feel that any ideology riddled with homophobia is also misogynist. Male homosexuality upsets some men beyond all reason because in their twisted minds, they think a relationship between two men must equal some man taking "the role of the woman", which is the worst insult they can possibly imagine. These are the same men who will beat and kill women for displeasing them somehow.

It's nothing to do with race at all, but I wonder if black men buy into that machismo more because so many of the stereotypical trappings of "manhood" (which are really meaningless, but also meaningful, you know?) have been forcibly denied for centures?

[Karenina]

146. Any ideology riddled with homophobia is also misogynist.

Salient point!

[LostinVA]

158. Yeah, that's a point I wish more peeople got

Homophobia and misogynism are woven together. You can't have one without the other.

[tandot]

142. Thanks for posting this.

[slampoet]

143. WHAT part of California is THE BRONX in?

[BronxBoy]

144. Go ask Sarah Palin....

I sure she could tell you

:D

[tclambert]

161. That would be a little east of the valley

Way east of Ojai. Or is it Ojai-o?

[La Lioness Priyanka]

150. aids is the reason the straight black community needs to fight homophobia

and consider how much they are oppressing their own gay men.

this is why i railed against donnie mcclurkin this summer. the ex gay movement KILLS gay people.

homophobia KILLS.

[ooglymoogly]

153. At 70 it has been my experience that gay folks

have been at the forefront of black equality. I have also observed that gay folks have been beaten, hanged, murdered, and left on lonely barbed wire fences to die because of the homophobia now being embraced by many blacks. This is not a pretty picture.

[Divine Discontent]

167. please keep speaking this everywhere you go... thank you. eom

[Psyop Samurai]

159. You're one of my DU heros, BronxBoy...

I wish I could have responded to yours and some other posts yesterday, but I was mostly on overwhelm trying to take it all in. I've expressed my thoughts here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x4405606

Peace.

[NikolaC]

163. K&R

:kick: I am saddened and upset that so many of our brothers and sisters chose to turn around and do to the LGBT community what was done to ours for so long.

[foxfeet]

169. And that sense of sadness is IMHO the driving force behind

many of the over-the-top "scapegoating posts" thus far. It was a shock and I kept wondering how any black person, with the history of their struggle, could vote to strip LGBT folks of a basic human right. I confess to naivete, and a silly assumption that, overall, black people would support us in this fight because they have been there, done that (or had it done TO them). It felt like a betrayal, whether that's even rational or not. After all, one would EXPECT white fundies to oppose us. No surprise there, hence no sense of betrayal, even if they were the group ultimately responsible for passing this POS proposition. Now it's time for me, and others, to get over it, to look dispassionately at the numbers (understanding that they are at best very crude measures) and to come together with like-minded folks to continue our fight. I hope that our LGBT brothers and sisters of color will be there with us, because we need each other (we always have and always will) and I'm guessing they share the feeling of betrayal to one degree or another.

[Occam Bandage]

164. I agree very strongly with this post. nt

[Lyric]

170. Thank you so much.

[kerry-is-my-prez]

171. It's shocking how behind this country is when it comes to this. My county voted 68% for a ban.

I really find it shocking. We are in a 60% Republican area - but it's also a well-educated area. There were haters - but also along with that a lot of people who thought it would hurt them financially.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

175. Self delete. Posted before reading the OP. nt

[supermodel]

176. As a Black Woman, I agree!!!

Why Black people can't see the wrong here, I don't know. I hate the way that gays are talked about in our community. Gays in the black community are not really welcome. In our communities, gays live quietly and in secret. In the city of Chicago, a lot of black gays hang out in Boystown (north side) so that they can be themselves because they can't in the neighborhoods where they live.

How can Blacks scream equality when they voted prejudice overwhelmingly? It makes me so mad!

Gays sing in church choirs, teach our children, protect us in the military and are still treated like second class citizens. Its time for Black America to wake up and start practicing what they preach.

[ExPatLeftist]

177. Personally, I like to blame those individuals responsible...

...rather than blaming an entire community (even my own) because even a majority of them (that voted) voted a certain way. Not too into throwing blame in the direction of "the blacks", "the whites", "the Arabs", "the Iraqis", "the Muslims", "the Jews", "the gays" (or any variant thereof followed by the word "community"). But maybe that is just me - convenient oversimplification is not my thing.

I find myself quite often at odds with those that happen to share my skin color, religion (lack thereof), or even shoe size. Strange that I am not just a clone from my community. While I do not mind in any way being at odds with those that share superficial traits with me, I do mind being blamed for some shit committed by some fool that happens to look like me in some way.

Personally, I am pissed at those individuals that voted for this shit. Not any "community" - communities don't vote, people do. The last thing the world needs, IMO, is more oversimplification and pigeonholing.

I find it immensely odd when people use blanket generalizations and prejudice to supposedly fight against... prejudice...?

[lumberjack_jeff]

178. Civil rights are civil rights. It is no more appropriate to select one kind as unworthy...

... than it is to single out one group as more to blame for the fact another group has had its civil rights abriged.

Blacks and Women (another benefactor of the civil rights struggle) are no more or less to blame for this injustice than my fellow white guys.

[dee_from_ott]

181. Which raises the question....

Now that the black community is in the political scene, will they find themselves in majority with the Republican party?

At first I didn't think so. I had thought that years of oppression and fighting for civil rights would have developed a "Liberal" set of values among the black community.

But if they voted for Prop 8, now I'm not so sure the Democratic party will be home to them.

What do you guys think of this?

[BronxBoy]

203. Not ever going to happen

Did you watch the campaign the Republicans ran????

Our community may be wrong on this issue but we sure as hell ain't migrating to the Republican party

[dee_from_ott]

220. ...

i didn't believe so. i just had second thoughts about it.

[Taverner]

184. Do you want to look for the real perpetrator in all this? Religion.

Churches. Jesus. The Bible. The Koran. Mohammed. All intolerant bronze age concepts, from a time when we thought madness was the result of demon possession and the world was flat.

So if you're looking for who caused this, its not "Black People" - but Churches, and the churches that black (and white) people go to.

Fuck Religion. Really, fuck them. Fuck all clergy, churches and 'holy books.' Religion does nothing but keep sending us back in the dark ages.

[mondo joe]

189. Religion is an excuse, not a cause.

People readily defy their own religion when they want to.

[Taverner]

207. Not sure about that

Some folks (not all - and that's why we need mandatory critical thinking in High School) will agree to do something insane 'for the cause.' Look at many religions for that kind of activity.

[mondo joe]

217. Look at how many Christians have abortions, permarital sex, divorce,

etc.

I firmly believe people follow the religious tenets they WANT to follow.

Anyone who voted against Prop 8 did so because they wanted to. Religion may be their excuse, but they wanted to do it.

[Taverner]

219. So who makes them boss of someone else's life?

[mondo joe]

235. They make themselves the boss. That's the disgusting thing.

They do it, and they want to do it.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

237. Religion is an excuse

My step-grandfather is a total freeper. I mean, he's totally batshit insane Republican, racist and anti-semitic as hell. He's VERY Catholic and heads the K of C in his town. He also isn't a homophobe. As he puts it, "I like the gays."

[Taverner]

240. But it is for SO MANY folks

[Bluenorthwest]

188. Number one in new HIV cases

That is why this issue can not be swept away for fear of the truth. It is a harmful state of things, it has been stuck in that place for decades.
What rips my heart in two is the constant postings about 'gays' and 'blacks' as if this whole thing were not at the core about black gay people. As if they did not exsist at all. What a week this must be in those shoes. Claude Raines, the invible man or woman, I guess.
This is not about what 'they' are doing to 'us' it is about what we are doing to each other. And have been for far too long, at far too high a cost. And it should be about how we can stop treating each other with less than great respect, and great love.
We are us. Not them and us, just us, justice. We are the only thing holding us back, and we are our only path to a new day. We are not just all in the same boat. We are the boat.

[UndertheOcean]

190. thank you !

[dee_from_ott]

191. BronxBoy and others, I think your perspectives...

are a little backwards.

The attitude in which you wrote your post is that AA's are indebted to us. America did not free them, America enslaved them in the first place. That slate is not cleared, it is WE that are in debt to THEM.

Just because we've finally said: "Okay, we won't oppress you anymore" does NOT mean they have to sacrifice their beliefs and vote for our rights.

See, there's a certain logical order in this:


1. We enslave them ( blacks: -1, america: 0 )
2. We oppress them ( blacks: -2, america: 0 )
3. We free them ( blacks: -1, america: 0 )

4. they sacrifice faith and vote for us? ( blacks: -1, america: +1 )

Playing field doesn't look even to me, and I don't think they owe us shit. It should be us voting to benefit their rights.

It's just looking at it from a different angle, your argument is more subjective than you think it is.


(and for the record, I am secular and non-homophobic. pure liberal.)

[BronxBoy]

204. Sorry

Don't understand the point you are trying to make. Can you clarify?

Thanks

[dee_from_ott]

215. What I'm saying is....

what makes you think blacks owe us anything? Why should they go against their religion to help us out?

You're talking as if you have a say in their vote. I believe that on the basis of social progress all people should be pro gay marriage,

but in no way is the black community voting against gay marriage an act of hypocrisy.

After what we've done to them they simply don't owe us their vote.

If anything, it's We who have years of black ass kissing to do. Not the other way around.

How can we ask them to make MORE sacrifices?

[BronxBoy]

223. Thank you for clarifying

For the record, I'm Black. And yes, denying another group of adults civil rights we fought for ourselves is hypocrisy

[dee_from_ott]

226. yes,

I know you're black.

And no, it's not hypocrisy. Look, the reason democracies vote is because there's pros and cons to every issue.

When they vote, they're not denying gays the right to marry. That's your vote.

What they are voting for is the dignity of their religion.

And because we have oppressed them, we cannot ask them to change their vote.


And in that respect, we would be shameless to ask them to, one more time, give away more of their dignity... for us.

[BronxBoy]

206. ?????

Not sure what you are trying to say

[Mithreal]

193. Damn straight! Religion based bigots, your time is over

America needs another Martin Luther King Jr. and I mean civil rights leader, not martyr, for the GLBT community.

It's quite a shame all the religious based bigotry, Jesus weeps.

[Festivito]

199. No, I think you are missing something you should have addressed.

AAs did show up in record number and voted for Dems. BUT, many of those were (large-C) Conservatives, remaining fooled by the Conservative hype, YET voting for the here-to-fore horrifying Liberal because his being black meant more to them than that label of Liberal.

These cross-voters are not the usual intelligent Dem voters. They are fooled as were many whites fooled.

YOU are not complaining about the white Conservative voters, yet you are complaining about black Conservative voters -- and that is unfair. You need to subtract them out and you did not even attempt to do that.

You lumped them all together and claimed the problem was with blacks.

No! The problem is not about them being black!

If you wish to say that these less intelligent of the black community should see the similarity of black struggles and gay struggles, I can see your point, but only to a point. Yes, there are similarities, but note, there are sufficient differences to argue against it being similar enough.

They are human. They are entitled to their mistakes.

You did not acknowledge that they are just as human as are the whites. And that's not good.

[BronxBoy]

210. What???? n/t

[Festivito]

245. Sorry, I've got a cold. I'm tired. I'm trying.

I'd say that it is not black America's bullshit, it is racist/second-class-citizen-shunter's bullshit.

You would be able to win this thing in '12 if you do educate the black community. It is fertile ground for change.

Your post, to me, it's like one calling bullshit, new map-reading students mistake in using a map when they make that mistake trying to arrive to their first day of class. It's not fair. It does not set right.

There are other groups as well. Churches are prime targets right now. Many are voting against the old standards in this election. And they do not think that they are voting against their religion, they think they are voting with their religion and they are prime for taking that further.

If you're going to be too busy blaming one aggregate of voters, you'll miss the opportunity.

I don't know how to write this for you, you only gave me single word to figure out what you may not have understood. Perhaps not even a single sentence.

[ProfessorGAC]

200. Wow! Brutally Frank

A lot of people are to blame, but there is nobody who voted for it who isn't. I like your frankness, Bronxboy
The Professor

[pinerow]

201. My Post on the subject

http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/talk/blogs/rpinero/index.php

[Ken Burch]

202. Before we go to far in this direction, we need to be really, REALLY sure that "exit poll" was real.

It's just weird that they would only have exit poll data for AA women, and that the AA female position would be so radically different from the more or less even splits in the other voting groups. I think something's not right with the CNN numbers on that.

This could be a set-up.

[lumberjack_jeff]

208. It happened on the day Skinner and Elad wrote the rules.

It's not your prerogative to "call out" a community. Particularly not when the group you're targeting is based solely on race.

[BronxBoy]

209. Sure it is

especially when I am a part of the community that I'm calling out.

What? A black person can't criticize the Black community now?

So let's shut the site down because in following that logic, a Democrat can't call out Democrats

And that certainly doesn't happen here :rofl:

[jonnyblitz]

222. if this thread broke the rules it would have been locked long

ago and it has been here going on 24 hours.

[BronxBoy]

224. I was actually surprised

that it popped up at the top of the list when I hit refresh.

I was so into reading about Queen Sarah's CNN whinefest :rofl:

[jonnyblitz]

234. i am surprised at all the recommends this thread has.

considering the subject matter and how so many viruntly want to ignore the issue.

[EFerrari]

246. That's simply dishonest. There's a big difference between

figuring out what we need to do to court a voting block and calling out minority voters.

You should be ashamed of yourself for adding more poison to a discussion that needs calm and smarts.

[Name removed]

247. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[EFerrari]

249. And it's those fine tools that got you here, I'm sure.

[captainjack08]

241. Many are to blame, Knights of Columbus, Catholics, Mormons

The Knights of Colombus, Catholics and Mormons have been running ads everywhere in California telling people to vote yes on prop 8. In fact they ran a zillion ads on KTALK AM 1150 which is a liberal station. Unfortunately it appears they were compelled to run the ads... but if you were'nt paying close attention you might think the liberal talk station was supporting a yes vote. KTALK radio hosts should have been a lot more clear that they did not support a yes vote.

And of course it is true that blacks, and hispanics have religious backgrounds that tended to make them support a yes vote.

If the GLBT community had the cajones then they would go after the root of the problem... big money donors from Knights of Columbus, Catholics, and Mormons. The GLBT community could sink these guys... hell... come up with a ballot initiative against pedo priests and polygamists in these groups and the problem would probably go away in a flash.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

244. Um -- the Knights of Columbus are Catholics

The really conservative ones.

[AlphaCentauri]

263. I think pedophiles and polygamist can be found in any gender

not only priest are pedophiles or mormons polygamist. The GLBT community would do better by improving relations with those sectors of society.

[varelse]

242. Kick for equal rights for all

and thank you for your courage, honesty, and eloquence in expressing your support for equal rights :)

[Strathos]

243. It is hypocritical

How any person who has had to suffer discrimination and been called everything from godless to an abomination can then turn around and vote against another human being is beyond me.

I don't know about y'all, but my joy for electing Obama has been overshadowed by the fact that more states joined the ranks of hatred and bigotry and intolerance.

I tell who I blame more than any other are the "christians". I put quotes around that word for this reason, I do believe there are Christians who care about love and peace and helping people, but "christians" are those that want to tear others down and force others to obey THEIR rules and their religion.

Religion is what will destroy America long before the Taliban or anyone else has the chance.

[bertman]

250. What a fantastic post!! Thanks BronxBoy, you have opened up an excellent discussion.

This Southern Baptist-raised white boy of 61 years is coming down on the It's-Religion's-Fault side.

One poster hit it on the head when talking about our tribalism and how we humans have to identify an "other" to hate or defend ourselves against. The major religious tribes I am most familiar with, Christianity and Islam, have all kinds of "other" that they have set up as threats: Jews, non-believers, believers from other sects within their cult group, polygamists, homosexuals, and secular humanists, to name some.

You would think that Jesus' teachings would have clued in a bunch of the Christ-follower homophobes to the inherent un-Christ-likeness of their mindset. But those folks don't bother to actually read and comprehend the bible, and that change isn't likely to come in my lifetime, so we'll probably have to live with their church-reinforced ignorance for a bit longer.

It is unfortunate that so much of America's anti-gay bigotry is rooted in religious mis-instruction and mis-representation. Black Americans like BronxBoy, goclark and others will play a huge role as agents of change in their communities. Meanwhile, the rest of us have our work cut out for us. Those of you who are believers, please pray for enlightenment of the benighted.

[Hamlette]

252. thanks for this, you are spot on

and as has been said a million times on this thread before, we need to recognize and admit the problem if we want to start to find a solution to it.

Any ideas why?

[AlphaCentauri]

253. Could it be that some people just voted YES, because they do not believe in marriage at all

I found these numbers interesting

Since 1950, there has been a substantial decrease in the marriage rates and an increase in the divorce rates of both African American and white women. The trends have been most pronounced among African Americans. The percentage of African American women who are married declined from 62% to 36.1% between 1950 and 2000. Among white women, the corresponding decline was from 66% to 57.4%. Trends in divorce have shown less difference between races, rising from 3% to 11.7% among blacks and from 2% to 10.2% among whites.

Between 1950 and 2000, the percentage of never-married black women doubled, from 20.7% to 42.4%. Some of these women may never marry. However, American women on the whole are also likely to delay marriage and childbirth to attend college and establish careers. In 2000, 73% of all American women in their early 20's had never married, compared with only 36% in 1970, while about 53.7% of black men and women between the ages of 25 and 34 had never been married in 2000. The median age which people first married grew considerably for the total population between 1980 and 2000, from age 25 to 26.8 for men and from 22 to 25.1 for women.



http://www.jointcenter.org/DB/factsheet/marital.htm

[customerserviceguy]

300. I have to say, you made me think

At first, I wondered what the decline in the marriage rate had to do with denying others the right to marry, it just didn't seem logical. I mean, I drive Asian-made cars, but I wouldn't support a law that disadvantaged people who preferred American-made cars.

But then, I thought about it. As smoking rates have declined, we've seen more smoking bans. As drinking rates have declined, we've seen the MADD mothers get the percentage for intoxication driven down. You might be on to something.

[rainlillie]

254. Blaming a whole race of people.. Won't get you anywhere!

If we are going to win this fight, we need people from every race, religion and gender to stand side by side.

[Karl_Bonner_1982]

255. More black-and-gay visibility is obviously needed

The Prop 8 election exposed once again an unfortunate fact that has been lurking for years: Black America has had trouble dealing with the issue of LGBT rights in a way that other ethnic groups (including most other non-White racial categories!) have not.

It's easy to blame the church for this, but I get the feeling that Black homophobia extends far beyond the walls of the church. Homophobia has long been a problem in the rap world, and while there is a peripheral religious influence there, rap is not exactly what you expect devout church-goers to be listening to en masse (in fact, most Black church members over the age of 35 or 40 seem to be extremely anti-rap.)

Now I happen to be white, so my observations and impressions will probably not be the same as if I were black. But you can't deny that people growing up black and gay face tremendous challenges: if they are young they probably don't feel very welcome at clubs and hip hop concerts, and the churches haven't been very good at opening up to them. Hence you get all the closetedness, self-hating, and HIV.

There are a few key things that I believe could help turn the tide:

1. Martin Luther King Jr.'s main political organizer, Bayard Rustin. We really ought to be paying more attention to him, not only because he was gay (and King DEFINITELY knew he was), but because of his crucial role in being the "brain" behind much of the movement. If, as some people believe, King was not a supporter of gay equality, why did he appoint an openly gay advisor to his campaign?

2. Emphasis on rights, not personal opinions. Al Sharpton may or may not agree with homosexuality from a moral standpoint, but it hasn't stopped him from supporting marriage rights, employment non-discrimination, and most of the LGBT platform.

3. LGBT organizations should reach out more to people who are black and gay and are struggling with discrimination and ostracism. And they should form stronger alliances with black sympathizers of their cause.

4. Hip-hop culture. Since the younger black generations are affiliated heavily with hip-hop, we should see this as a golden opportunity. My motto is "mend it, don't end it." We should be giving our full moral support to rappers who stand up and say NO! to misogyny and homophobia. And let's be clear: we are not opposed to sexual content or profanity per se, only to messages that treat women and gays as inferior.

5. More diverse social circles. I'm openly gay, and one thing I've noticed recently is that I don't have a lot of Black, Hispanic or Asian buddies. But I have the power to make some changes there.

=======

We aren't going to be able to end the undercurrent of black homophobia overnight, but we can chisel away at the edges. And this election should be motivation to get our asses moving on it.

[ksimons]

256. If you want to blame anyone...

... there is more than enough blame to go around.

Robocalls were sent out to black AND white AND hispanic AND asian neighborhoods using actual recordings of Barack Obama's own words saying there shouldn't be Gay Marriage. If you want to point the finger, it goes directly to the top of the Democratic ticket. Period.

If he wants to 'claim the higher ground' he needs to now do it. Or he can shut up about it. Either way, but his half-assed answers that 'the youth are way ahead of us on the curve on this issue' means either that he believes it is true that marriage should be allowed for all, but he is unwilling to say it outwardly - or doesn't believe it enough to say it out loud. Either way, the blame does significantly rest on Barack Obama's doorstep as well and on OURS for voting for someone who TOLD US he does not believe gays should have the right to marry. Why are we blaming ANYONE but ourselves for voting for someone who made it crystal clear where he stood?

Having said that, there are some glimmers of hope from the change.gov website

Combat Employment Discrimination

Obama and Biden (snip) will also pass the Fair Pay Act to ensure that women receive equal pay for equal work and the Employment Non-Discrimination Act to prohibit discrimination based on sexual orientation or gender identity or expression.

Expand Hate Crimes Statutes

Obama and Biden will strengthen federal hate crimes legislation, expand hate crimes protection by passing the Matthew Shepard Act, and reinvigorate enforcement at the Department of Justice's Criminal Section.

[OnyxCollie]

257. .

:popcorn:

[QC]

260. When you posted this thread, did you imagine that you would have white people lecturing you

on how you should not discuss problems you perceive in your own community?

Amazing, isn't it?

We have long had a problem here with straight DUers coming into the GLBT forum and pontificating to us about how we should behave. I didn't know that anyone else was also getting that treatment. You definitely have my sympathy, to say nothing of my respect for being willing to stand up to the crowd here.

[daveskilt]

261. I am mormon and voted NO on 8

lets blame mormons - we went about 80% for yes on 8 and mormons lobbied like hell to pass it. there are a half million mormons in CA so the 400,000 vote difference is about how many mormons voted for 8.

I think the point of the OP here is that a group which is familiar with persecution and specifically marriage rights (ironically mormons fall into that category too - just a little further back in the past than A-A people) were the ones leading the way in persecuting another group.

maybe we all need someone to kick down.

[ruggerson]

265. Your last line is brilliant

thanks.

[varkam]

266. Wow! Excellent OP! Proud to K&R that.

:kick:

[DeSwiss]

270. I agree with EVERY word....

...excellent post BronxBoy. Having a personal history in the black church as a PK for about the first half of my life, I can attest to much of what you say as being justified, from my experience. This issue, among others, finds itself as another sacrificial lamb at the altar of "The Great Patriarchal Penis." All of which has been aided and abetted by religious dogma for at least the past 6 millennia.

Its symbols abound throughout all our cultures, and we couldn't get away from it if we tried. It permeates everything like a miasma and is the filter through which most people try to make sense of the world. Problem is, they're still using these ancient ideas and beliefs in a modern world, as if it makes sense.

I saw another poster over at http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/11/8/22955/4973/667/657342">DKOS who went ballistic because he was insulted that gay rights was being equated to black civil rights. And he posted this from the Declaration of Independence as a part of his rant:

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness.

I don't post over at KOS. They're all a little "too intense" for me at this stage. At 57 years old, I've learned that you last longer when pick your battles wisely. But I wanted to know just what part of "equal" doesn't he, and apparently many others, not understand? What was it that the man said about "only being judged by the content of one's character?"

Either equal means equal, or it doesn't mean shit. It's nothing if it doesn't belong to all of us from the get-go. Period.

DeSwiss

[ksimons]

274. nice point and simply put - facts are facts nt

[cboy4]

273. Absolutely. What an excellent essay.

:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup: :thumbsup:

It needs to be said.

:kick:

[66 dmhlt]

276. Excellent Post! Over next weeks, months I hope some sane dialogue follows

[1Hippiechick]

277. Homophobia, racism, bigotry ALL are under the umbrella of Civil Rights - Civil Rights is INCLUSIVE

of ALL human civil struggles. I have stated repeatedly in DU: The fight for CIVIL RIGHTS WILL NEVER END!
One has to remember that the actual 'legislated' Civil Rights Act occurred in the 1965 as an outcry against racism and segretation and the accompanying abuse towards AAs. Homosexuality wasn't even discussed - it was as if it didn't even exist!

So, my opinion, FWIW: The unrest of the 60s--although focused on racism--'opened the door' for recognition of ALL of man's abuses of human rights. That's why, imo, Jesse Jackson has been so outspoken about civil rights - he doesn't want the younger people to lose focus about racism. Yes, all the issues are vitally important and HAVE to be addressed--just don't let racism get lost in the process. I know for a fact that there are black people who were opposed to Obama's presidency BECAUSE of mistrust of white America, feeling that it was a "set-up" for him to fail.

So, here we are: as the fight for legislation AGAINST racism began in its infancy in the 60s', the fight for legislation AGAINST homophobia is occurring now. The defeat of Prop 8 is absolutely a crushing defeat for that recognition. Again, THE FIGHT FOR CIVIL RIGHTS WILL NEVER END.

And, this infighting among/between 'causes' or 'focuses' has got to stop, imo. Civil/human rights abuse is abuse. Period. I don't have to be black or be gay to be an activist against mistreatment of ANYbody.

I believe that race, gay rights, pro-choice--and the myriad of other issues--should be looked at from the perspective of the HUMAN RACE. When we can do that, we will have come TOGETHER as a people and recognize that abuse is abuse, and ANY abuse is an abuse to ALL of us.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yt4c-Xgm9yk

[Le Taz Hot]

282. All I can say is thank you for an excellent post.

I haven't read up-thread yet but at some point I'm guessing someone has accused you of racism. It's a proud tradition on DU. One that I break so often I'm surprised I'm still here. :hi:

[Buzz Clik]

287. How about blaming the GLBT community for their own failure?

This whole conversation is childish. Those among the GBLT voicing this need to grow up and take responsibililty for their won fuck up.

They blew it. They had the chance to defeat Prop 8 -- a vile piece of shit if there ever was one -- and they missed it.

They need to blame themselves.

I'll recommend this post -- I recommend that it be preserved for eternity as a shining example of immaturity.

[nolabels]

288. I am left handed but i didn't even know it till after i was thirty

Yea, blame a minority with percentage numbers hovering in the single digits for the rest of societies bigotry. I blame myself every time i post a reply to someone who doesn't understand math. No need to talk about being immature, lets just talk about how people can get out elementary with out understanding how math works :shrug:

[Buzz Clik]

289. That, too.

It seems emotions are stronger than arithmetic.

[robcon]

291. Incredible stupidity, Buzz Clik

Buss Clik wrote: "Those among the GBLT voicing this need to grow up and take responsibililty for their won fuck up.

They blew it. They had the chance to defeat Prop 8 -- a vile piece of shit if there ever was one -- and they missed it.

They need to blame themselves."

Blaming the 5-10% for the defeat by the rest of voters is certainly a UNIQUE attitude, especially since you don't share with us your "analysis" of the vote, Buzz Clik, that results in blaming the GBLT community. I can't recall a stupider post in recent memory. Or in longer memory.

[Buzz Clik]

293. Well, sure. Let's just blame the Negroes.

Pardon me if I choose NOT to join the mindset of the Democratic Party of the 1950s. I hated them then, I hate this new attitude now.

Clear enough? Shall I throw in a big "Fuck all racist assholes!", or did I already make my point?

[robcon]

295. Again, no voting analysis, Buzz Clik, but you still want to blame the victims.

Are you trying to PROVE your stupidity, as if it's not already apparent to DUers?

You're not "joining the mindset of 1950's Democrats," but you're parroting the mindset of 21st century Republicans.

[Buzz Clik]

304. My goodness. It's clear your Saturday isn't as busy as mine. But since you asked:

California cast roughly 10,900,000 votes in the general election 2008. According to CNN exit polls, 10% of those votes were African-Americans -- 1,090,000 votes. According to Rachel Maddow, 70% of the "black community" broke against Prop 8; that's 763,000 votes.

Prop 8 broke 5,662,000 "yes" to 5,154,000 "no", or a difference of 508,000. So, clearly, if every African-American voted against Prop 8 then it would have been defeated. Were African-Americans the only Democrats who voted against Prop 8?

Interestingly, 37% of those who voted for Obama voted against Prop 8 -- that's 2,453,000 Obama voters who voted against Prop 8. Compare that to the total number of African-American voters of 1,090,000. Subtract out the 763,000 African-Americans who voted against Prop 8, and that leaves 1,690,000 non African-American voters who voted for Obama yet voted against Prop 8.

One more bit of information: 1,036,000 Obama voters were Bush voters in 2004. If we assume that none of those cross-over voters were African-American voters and if we assume that all the 2004 Bush voters who voted for Obama are hard-core anti-gay, we can subtract the 1,036,000 from the 1,690,000 and get 654,000 non-African-American hard-core Democrats who voted against Prop 8 -- still larger than the margin by which Prop 8 passed.

And you're willing to put the blame squarely on the African-Americans for this complete fuck up?

And you call ME stupid? Those are the facts. Take your insults and shove them deep.

[nolabels]

314. Thanks for the reply

I was only thinking you were blaming minority for not changing the minds of the majority. Today i listened to a interview of Tom Brokaw, he was still trying to badmouth and ridicule what he called people in the "Flower Child" movement. He rattled off all these things to try and bolster his point and in the end tried to prove it was wrong for those flower child people to oppose war because they lost every battle in trying.

My kind of math, the US is pretty much broke, our outlays, projected entitlements and payments for the interest and principle on the debt outstrip our ability to pay for it. Our GDP is shrinking, our infrastructure is crumbling and our workforce is losing to the competition in innovation and education. The reason for this is the US has acquiesced to being the global police force for the multinational corporations, just like and how it always has been for a long time. The cream and overage produced by the combined workforce goes for making more war and lining the pockets of the people who sell us the junk to do it. The flower child lost all the battles in that debate but is still able to claim obviously that they were more correct.

The moral is that in order for the war monger and or bigot to win they will have to obliterate and eliminate at least sideline everyone that oppose them. If they don't, the one's they fictionalize will eventually have large enough numbers to make there own way.

The US is wagging two separate wars with no hope or sight of winning either and debt is eleven trillion and counting. So math, the thing they want us to ignore goes on. Them guys who wanted separation of church and state were also very smart, but we seem to want to ignore them too. With new debate and more fictionalization the people who claim to be fighting for Jesus are still wining the battles while all of us combined lose in the war :shrug:

[DeSwiss]

307. Please provide examples.

Buzz Clik (1000+ posts) Sat Nov-08-08 08:38 AM
Response to Original message
287. How about blaming the GLBT community for their own failure?

This whole conversation is childish. Those among the GBLT voicing this need to grow up and take responsibililty for their won fuck up.

They blew it. They had the chance to defeat Prop 8 -- a vile piece of shit if there ever was one -- and they missed it.

They need to blame themselves.

I'll recommend this post -- I recommend that it be preserved for eternity as a shining example of immaturity.

I get that you think the victims in all this are responsible for their fate "exclusively." On the other hand, the same kind of thing was said of me once -- because I'm black. But no one could come up with any specifics on what exactly it was my race had to do with my fate, in that case either. We all know now that it was just another failed attempt to displace the responsibility for racism and the effects it has had upon its victims. So it pains me to see black people deny the equivalence of their own plight, with that of gay people. If equality is to have any true meaning at all, then it has to include everyone, or it's all just a bunch of shit. Another lie.

Anyone who pulled the lever to deny someone access to the same full rights and privileges as they have, are the one's who are at fault here. No matter what their race or their reason(s). So as far as I see it, any black person who voted for this amendment, is a hypocrite of the worst sort. And its got nothing to do with the 50's and/or scapegoating some group (which ironically ends up being the effect of your position). It has everything to do with fairness and equality and the TRUTH. If you can't handle that truth, then that's something altogether different. But it still doesn't alter it.

I grew up in the black church and gay people were everywhere I looked. Any black person that posts at DU and has been or is involved in the black church knows this is true. This isn't some exercise in social theory for me. These are real people whom a majority in California has denied full citizenship. And yet you say that it is the victims of this action, who are the one's who are at fault here. You can't get much more 50's than that.

So I totally disagree with you. But in the spirit of fairness, please enlighten us with your keen insight and wisdom, of where it was exactly "they" went wrong. I'm sure they'll give your pointers, the consideration they deserve.

- Shit, it never ends....



on edit: spelling

[Buzz Clik]

311. Um ... they lost on Prop 8 and a group blamed people other than themselves?

That's my definition of childish behavior.

However, I do agree with this: "Anyone who pulled the lever to deny someone access to the same full rights and privileges as they have, are the one's who are at fault here." Are you chiming in to bash those who are blaming "the black community" for this?

[DeSwiss]

313. No....

...but I am chiming-in to say that I don't blame gay people for this despicable amendment's passage though. All I can see that this does, is to shift blame from one group to another. So I'm not blaming the black community so much as I am the 70% or so within it who voted for this stupid law. Let's call it "a community within the community." And Hispanics don't have anything to write home about on this issue either as far as I can see. They didn't support it either. So there's plenty of blame to spread around on this. However, that wasn't the point raised in the OP.

Besides, how could I blame the "black community" without blaming myself since I'm a part of it? As I said above, no matter the race or the reason, its boils down to support for discrimination. And if the shoe fits, then I'm afraid they'll have to wear it. And it fits about 70% of the time (as in the case for blacks in CA) who voted for Prop 8, then yeah, I guess I am bashing. On the other hand, Prop 8 wouldn't have passed if that 70% had been 0%, now would it?

But I always find it somewhat amusing that people will quite often equate "bashing" with being wrong. Which is not always the case. It seems to me that such an attitude has more to do with the "tenor" of one's speech, rather than its veracity. Is it still considered bashing even when what you say is the truth? At 70% of the "community" its not as though what I've said is unwarranted. Please forgive me if I sound upset with those 70% of black people in CA who didn't support the ideals of democracy, equality and the sanctity of other's rights. And if that makes me sound as though I'm bashing, I suppose I am. Or maybe I'm just being "bash-like." Sort of they way gays have "equality-like rights" in CA and most of the country now.

Personally, I think those who diagree in this particular instance, are simply upset with the idea of blacks being considered somehow wrong here. Heaven forbid, they're the victims!!! As if victims are somehow immune from becoming the perpetrators of inequlity. How ironic. So I can understand not wanting to be labeled for they hypocrites that they are. That's understandable. But it changes nothing. And it won't, not until they change.

- So pardon my smoke, but I tend to get a little upset with hypocrites, and whenever someone's rights have just been voted away. But I'm funny like that....

[Buzz Clik]

316. Within the Dem Party, more non-minorities voted for Prop 8 than voted against it.

A problem exists and it needs to be reversed. I supposed if you target only African-Americans and Latino, you might make some progress, but it's abundantly clear that there was a marked failure in the campaign against Prop 8. Blaming specific groups is pointless.

[baby_mouse]

309. Well.

That was helpful.

[Buzz Clik]

312. This whole fucking thread is a negative contribution.

[dballance]

297. The Religious Right is the Enemy - Let's not fight each other

I just read an article that really changed my mind about blaming African-Americans for Prop 8.

http://site.pfaw.org/site/PageServer?pagename=issues_equality_prop_8_memo

As a gay man I was pissed at the African-American and Latinos for Prop 8 passing. But that's the wrong way to channel my passion and our communities passions. We need to educate the church-going voters and especially those mid-America people who keep voting for the GOP even when it's against their own best interest. We have to change the political discourse to be about real issues that affect everyone and not the three fear issues of gun-control, abortion and gays that the GOP and the churches use to keep their control over vast numbers of people.

If the religious right were honest and objective about which candidate lives their life in a Christian manner and which candidate's deeds were more in line with the teachings of Jesus then they would have had to support Obama. The Bible has a whole lot to say about helping those who are in need and are less fortunate and so little to say about homosexuality. Unfortunately all admonitions to help others have taken a back seat to the abortion, guns and gays issues because it's not popular to be selfless in this country.

In fact, it's so much more popular to display your wealth as a sign of superiority over others that even the hint we should sacrifice something for the war effort or to help the poor is considered ridiculous. The best we can do in this country is display faux patriotism - no sacrifice. We slap yellow-ribbon, support the troops magnets (made in China) on our cars and we put flag pins on our lapels (also made in China). Then, we get angry at other people who won't do the same and call them anti-American or worse. But I digress.

Obama won because of serendipity and the fact he kept making it about the real issues. If Wall Street hadn't crashed we might be talking about a President-elect McCain. We cannot take Obama's victory for granted. Everything they threw at Clinton they will throw at Obama. The right will spend the next 4 years doing their best to undermine Obama and anything he tries to accomplish. We must insist that our legislators support Obama with the votes necessary to make him successful.

We, the GLBT, African-American, Latino-American, Native-American communities, along with Asian-Americans and other minorities must work together and not let the Right set us up to fight with one another. We are all part of the "tired, the hungry, the huddled masses" that this country welcomes. European-Americans (yep, that's what most white people here are) are not superior to any one of us.

[jonnyblitz]

299. sorry but way too many who came out to vote for Obama also

voted YES on 8 in CA. this should not be swept under the rug. it does nobody any good to ignore the homophobes in our midst. in

[customerserviceguy]

302. Wow, some interesting thoughts here

you really started a good discussion, and I've been the beneficiary of many different points of view that I hadn't really thought much about.

I do think there is one thing at work here that makes it easy for the media to use this as a wedge. Tuesday was a very important day in American history. Not just because of the election of Barack Obama, but because of the realignment of political power in this country. The last three Democratic Presidents were Southerners who ran as social moderates in order to convince enough of red state America to trust them. Not only did Sen. Obama not have to dumb down his message, but progressive candidates did very well all across the country. The Repukes only held a tiny bit of what they had from this last election, such as that asshat, Mitch McConnell.

The only group that did not benefit from this is the gay community. All three of the anti-equality provisions passed, even in Arizona, the only state so far to have turned bigotry back in 2006. It has to hurt like hell for them to have arrived at this wonderful party, and there's no cake for them, in fact, they're reminded that they weren't even invited.

I understand that Sens. Obama and Biden had to say certain things in order to get elected, but I hope they realize the gaping wound that Tuesday left in the hearts of those who celebrate the equality and dignity of everyone. I hope they take the opportunity for leadership on this issue, and that by the next time this issue threatens to stain the constitution of a blue state, they will forcefully advocate that the residents of that state not jump on the bandwagon of hate.

[rainlillie]

303. The way I see.. gays and lesbians voted for Obama..

because they liked his positions on the issues, not because of his race.. So, don't think people should pat you on the back because you voted for an African American. The post implies that African Americans owe you something, because you helped elect Obama. That couldn't be further from the truth. You did what was best for your country. African Americans are just as diverse in their thoughts and actions as any other group of people. Some support Gays and Lesbians some don't. In order to win this fight we must approach it as a civil rights and equal rights issue.

My sister is a lesbian, and I've had conversations with very conservative family members, regarding her right to marry. I tell them take the sex issue out of it and tell me you think it's okay for other people to decide who can and cannot get married. What if those same people said people who of different religions or if one person is five years older than the other they can't marry. They began to understand my point. They may not accept her as a lesbian, but they must be in favor for equal rights for all Americans. No fair minded person wants to see others discriminated against. Some have said, I don't agree with the "lifestyle" but they should have the same rights. It's time to try reach people with reason and not with anger. We've tried it the other way, it doesn't work.

[maximillian1974]

305. Washington dc

For my first post on DU, I would like to remind everyone that Washington DC, which is an overwhelmingly african american city is a very gay friendly city. Our mayor is putting forth the idea of gay marriage in the city, though Congress has a lot of say in this arena. I believe a lot of what was going on in California was misinformation, including those mailers that falsely implied Obama was for prop 8. I think a lot of people underestimate the support the AA community has for all minorities.

[TeeYiYi]

308. Exactly. ...kick

TYY :kick:

[Joszef Pelikan]

310. We are fighting an ideology, not a skin color.

[jonnyblitz]

319. we are fighting homophobia wherever it may turn up.

[bluedawg12]

321. jonnyblitz - No we're not.

I understand the way you feel, I felt it too for the last week.

I just assumed that all GLBTQ people were one group and then the straights were another and those who voted against us were all bigots and those who we expected to be on our side turned on us.

But, I have been doing some reading and trying to look this up and I realize that we as gays are not one monolithic group and that as a white gay I actually had no insight, and maybe still don't, into black gay culture and priorities.

That's why we can't fight this on all fronts and all homophobes, because this may not be anything like our lives as white gays.

Also we may be screwing it up for AA gays, who have their own experience and community to deal with and their own priorities.

It's pretty likely that we see this in a really different way as white people than black people do. We may think that our sexual orientation is the bond and all inclusive and they may see it as one of class, economic differences and they may not a give a shit about marriage, when as someone pointed out to me on another thread, some folks are worried about money or a place to live.

I know emotions are running high, I've been there, but I think we are talking two different languages borne of different experiences since birth.

We need to get our act together as GLBTQ's, of all ethnicity ( BTW- no such thing as race and skin color is pretty much as relevant to me as shoe size, since there is no genetic meaning to race, look it up, we are all descended from a woman in Africa , mitochondrial Eve - but there is meaning to culture and ethnic background and we are talking between cultural chasms here, now, that we can;t understand because we don't live it)we need to work on ourselves in an open GLBT community, get some good lawyers to kick all of the homophobic @ss holes out of power through the laws and Court and move on. I think our GLBTQ brothers and sisters of color are on a different path for now. I am trying to say, it's time for a little understanding of who we are and of others.

peace-

bd12


http://www.ifbprides.org/ifbp_news_june_08_irene.php

Black Pride plays an important role in the larger gay rights movement.
The growing gulf between whites and blacks, rich and poor can be seen in the HIV/AIDS epidemic that was once an entire LGBTQ community problem and is now predominately a black one.

Another example of our division can be seen in the white gay ghettos that have developed and thrived safely in neighborhoods throughout the country. However, with homophobia in black communities, where most of us reside, we cannot carve out a black queer ghetto within our existing neighborhoods and expect to realistically be safe.

OUR THEMES FOR Black Pride events are different from the larger Pride events. Black Pride focuses on issues not solely pertaining to gays, but rather on social, economic and health issues impacting the entire black community. For example, where the primary focus and themes in white Prides have been on marriage equality, gay people of African descent have used Pride events to focus on HIV/AIDS, other health issues, gang violence and youth homelessness, to name only a few.

By 1999, Black Pride events had grown into the International Federation of Black Prides, Inc. (IFBP). The IFBP is a coalition of 29 Black Pride organizations across the country. It formed to promote an African multicultural and multinational network of LGBTQ/Same Gender Loving Pride events and community based organizations dedicated to building solidarity, health and wellness and promoting''unity throughout our communities.

[jonnyblitz]

322. omg. one more try. homophobia everywhere needs to be fought.,

pointing out there is homophobia in the black community is not racism. blaming prop 8 on just the black community is wrong. many here are conflating ANY discussion of homophobia in the Black Community as blaming the blacks for prop 8 and they are doing this to shut down discussion. we can talk about white homophobes and religious homophobes but homophobia in the AA community is taboo because discussion is racism here at DU. many people here who have no dog in this fight are misrepresenting what is going on and getting everybody riled up so now the topic is gay racists blame the AA community for prop 8. I think I might give up discussing this on this forum.

[bluedawg12]

324. jonnyblitz - listen,

homophobia everywhere needs to be fought. But not by you and me, assuming you are white, as I am.

Because we don't live the lives of black gay people and we don't know what they are up against.

They need to fight it in their own way. That's why I posted the blackpride gay thing. It's a really different out look.

I am not saying don't talk about homophobia in the black community, I am saying we really can't understand it,if we grew up white.

Anymore than some heterosexual can understand what their hate speech means to me when they say it smiling and quote some scripture or theology.

It's not tabboo to talk to black people about homophobia, it's that we don't understand where any of it comes from. Probably understand it a lot less than where white homophobia comes from.

I am not trying to silence you any more than I wanted to be silenced, I just want you to be a little more at peace and let this go...it probably would be better for the AA GLBTQ's if we let them handle this and butt out.
Prop8 is dead, the Courts are still there, new SCOTUS, etc. A little hope.

I say work on our legal battles as gays and frankly I am not particularly interested ( tonight anway, LOL) in convincing any straight people that I am ..golly gee...a f*cking human being. Screw 'em. I am beyond that too. They are almost a lost cause for a awhile- but I do say fight their sorry asses in Court.

As for the black community, they need to deal with whatever it is that they have, or don't have, going on. But I sure as hell can see it is different than what I know. I thought it was the same, I don't think it is. It dawned on me, that there is not the same life, still,in 2008, for everyone, despite our historic election, not every black man or woman went to Harvard law, and they are working on their own issues. I forgot, or was in denial, or things change slowly and economic worries are a priority for many and I thought it wold be better by now in the world,,,it's not poverty is still a raging issue and worse since the last eight years.

[jonnyblitz]

323. also, it's unfortunate maybe that pollsters poll by race.

none of this would have come up if they hadn't and why do they anway?

[bluedawg12]

325. jonnyblitz-they poll by race or any other thing

because there are voting blocks and understanding that gives politicians power.

But, I have to say CNN really sucked at their polling, from what I have read about their methodology. They haven't been called out and have not cleaned it up.

Also there are differing studies on AA attitudes and in general they are not that different than whites in some studies but the fundy's pulled some really nasty tricks with the phone calls.

Check this out:

http://poq.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/67/1/59

Public Opinion Quarterly 67:59-78 (2003)
© 2003 American Association for Public Opinion Research

Black-White Differences in Attitudes toward Homosexuality and Gay Rights*
GREGORY B. LEWIS

Abstract

Black homophobia has been cited as a contributing factor in slowing mobilization against AIDS in the African-American community, as an obstacle to black lesbians and gay men in coming to terms with their sexuality, and as a challenge to the legitimacy of the gay rights movement. Yet evidence that blacks are more homophobic than whites is quite limited. This article uses responses from almost seven thousand blacks and forty-three thousand whites in 31 surveys conducted since 1973 to give more definitive answers on black-white attitudinal differences and their demographic roots. Despite their greater disapproval of homosexuality, blacks' opinions on sodomy laws, gay civil liberties, and employment discrimination are quite similar to whites' opinions, and African Americans are more likely to support laws prohibiting antigay discrimination. Once religious and educational differences are controlled, blacks remain more disapproving of homosexuality but are moderately more supportive of gay civil liberties and markedly more opposed to antigay employment discrimination than are whites. Yet religion, education, gender, and age all have weaker impacts on black than on white attitudes, suggesting that black and white attitudes have different roots.