LGGBTIQ rights -- are NOT the same as racial equality rights.

[xchrom]

we would all like for that to be so -- but it isn't.

african american lgbtiq folk have struggles unimaginable to others.

marriage equality has meaning and safety issues to asian pacific lgbtiq folk that are different from every one else.

if you think they are the same -- you are dead wrong.

[xchrom]

1. kick

[Chovexani]

2. I'm glad that you mention this

Intersectionality exists and not enough people realize that.

[Terran]

3. lgbtiq?

Forgive me, I'm old. It was just LGB when I a young queen in the Castro, ca. 1984.

[xchrom]

5. i'm older than you then -- lesbian, gay, bisexual,

transexual. intersexed{hermaphrodite} queer and questing.

[Terran]

7. Ah, thank you

I'm out of it. Possibly the result of being happily partnered for 22 years.

[Hugabear]

13. Okay, I'm confused - what do you mean by the last two?

I've never heard the term "questing" before, and 'queer'? I thought that was a derogatory word used by bigots to describe pretty much everybody in this group.

[xchrom]

15. ah well times are moveable --

questing refers to people who are simply unsure about their sexual identity
but find them elves closely tied to the lgbtiq folk.

querr refers to a diverse group who may be be gay, bi or even straight but have close -- very close indentification with the gay community all the while denying or separating them selves from us.

it's complicated.

[Hugabear]

16. No kidding - it's getting to be one big alphabet soup!

And to be quite honest, it shouldn't even be necessary.

All HUMANS should have equal rights, period. Shouldn't matter if you're straight, gay, lesbian, black, Hispanic, Asian, transgendered, disabled, blind, deaf, etc.

[xchrom]

20. well this sort of goes to my point --

our history -- lgbtiq history -- it's narrative -- is not the same narrative as racial minorities.

it really doe sbear thinking about.

[bridgit]

4. agreed...

[xchrom]

6. thank you love

:hug:

[xchrom]

8. kick

[IndianaJones]

9. what exactly is the point here? nt.

[NJPuggle]

10. This black woman agrees, true - HOWEVER

We have to stand with the gay community on the principle behind their anger. We've got to. I'm shyly posting an idea in a few places here - because I'm new and should be discreet and polite right now about just popping off with ideas: but, who knows bigotry better than we do? Being called out IS provocative, and for a minute, yes, angrymaking - but our job now is to rise above.

Then open a dialogue, and say, "OK, you're mad at some of us. We don't agree with the folks you're mad at, but they look similar to us. OK, fair enough. As folks who look similar to but are not the folks you're mad at, here are some ideas we used that got us some of what we wanted. Most of y'all are white, so if you use these techniques, likely you'll get most of what you want. Here they are." Then share them. One is this:

Use the power of the media. I don't see a lot of GLBT folks using it correctly. Like for instance, the Mormon attack ad Backfired - bigtime. I work in media and I knew the moment I finished watching it that Prop 8 was going to pass. It was poor media. That's the problem.

Protesting and getting arrested a la Stonewall in West Hollywood, for instance - this is just going to turn off folks in the middle who think "gay people are weird, loud and extreme" anyway. Does that remind any of us of some MORE FOLKS middle America thinks are "weird, loud and extreme"? We realized a long time ago rioting doesn't get results. Not like good media can.

Example of good media:

Gay couples need to hold the biggest candlelight vigil in the history of the world in a massive circle around that Mormon church that started all this, show up neatly dressed, like the married folks most of them are, and sing a Christian hymn. I wouldn't suggest "We Shall Overcome" until a few songs after this first one; but once this media event has taken hold, and softened the gay image in America, and warmed Middle Black America to Gay America, THEN, with Jesse Jackson and other well-known "black elders" in the photos with them as "the permission givers", they can sing that song.

Sad to say but success requires timing.

I say gay, lesbian, bi and transgendered white people stop the race blame, take the high road, and start using the media correctly. Second step, give a greater voice to gays of color. Visibly. Aggressively. Show the black community that black gays have white gay support. And work that media, work that media, work. that. media.

The candlelight vigil should be happening NOW.

I am black, straight, and will work as PR director for any GLBT organization that wants it. I wonder if my offer will be taken up by anybody?

[kevinbgoode]

12. Huh?

We've been good boys and girls and all it got us was thrown under the bus.

[NJPuggle]

17. I done snatched you out from under the bus

You're not going under it on my watch or on anybody else black's with any sense in their head.

This is the gay 911. Stand up and be counted.

In order to defeat the terrorists, we need to control how the media is used in the game. I would say let anger be your fuel on this but don't let it consume, control or compromise the cause.

When I was fired by a white lesbian because I wouldn't date her, June 4, 2008, this year, from a job I was extremely good at, I was A.N.G.R.Y. When she had two friends of hers who didn't even work there sign affidavits stating I didn't have the skills to work there and that that was why she fired me - despite the fact I was working very successfully in that field at a higher level in a bigger city a decade and a half, and had been written up in the NY Times for my achievements in it, before she, in her small town, switched to my field of work from real estate - and when my peers saw me character assassinated by her, and saw people believe her because despite the fact she is lesbian she is also CAUCASIAN, as a black woman I was A.N.G.R.I.E.R.T.H.A.N.H.E.L.L.

I could have let this anger consume me and gone online talking trash about gays and lesbians. It's not the first time women have come onto me; nor is it the first time, unfortunately, I have been dealt revenge for being straight and not sleeping with them. If I can put anger aside for that, you can put anger aside for this. That was MY 911, after decades of championing gay rights. I saw it as a very serious (and financially damaging - I'm still in debt because of it and lost my home; she and her partner live very comfortably in a 2500 square foot home in another state) betrayal.

So what.

I am still in favor of gays and lesbians and see you as my brothers. I choose to ignore being called a nigger by a white gay guy; yes, it's happened, twice. Both were drunk, and I hate the drunkness and ignorance, not the gayness. I choose to ignore the gay black guy who owes me close to $100,000 and still won't pay it, and uses my work to promote himself, where he's living very well with his white partner (they're not married yet, by choice) and their cute twins in his condo. I choose to ignore the biracial gay guy who emails me every three weeks or so telling me he's going to commit suicide because he hates life, and all my phone calls, visits and replies over the past FIFTEEN YEARS OF THIS talking him into staying alive, but this year when I asked him to write a single short letter for me to help me get rid of a stalker, he ignored it and ignored me; then sent me another email a few months later acting as though he didn't hurt me at all. I choose to ignore the gay guys who competed against me for a certain cute straight guy I was dating (and yes, he was and remained straight), and told him evil things about me that weren't true.

You see, there's a lot to ignore in this world, and no human being is flawless or can stroll blameless. Do you think all straights regardless of race frolic singing tra-la-la through a meadow of Edelweiss simply because I can go out and select some schmo, walk in a church full of hate, mumble some words, get mumbled to and then get a tax break and smiles from strangers who don't even know or like me? How do you think I as a black heterosexual woman feel watching gay people who did some pretty foul stuff to me for their own personal selfish reasons living FAR BETTER THAN I DO RIGHT NOW? I'll tell you how I feel.

Committed to protecting their God-given, unalienable right as human beings to marry the person they love. Goddammit.

I'm black and straight, and I never threw you under the bus.

What if I were like other folks on this board and started a thread about how gays and lesbians have thrown MY ass under the bus?

I won't.

I'm not unusual. If I can rise above and reach out to you, you can rise above and reach out to us. We've both got to. It's the only way to defeat our new terrorists.

And you know who they are.




Edited to add forgotten part of story about suicidal friend.

[justiceischeap]

18. RE: Protesting

I used to work for an animal rights acronym and one thing they learned was to change animal rights activists images. A long time ago most people heard "animal rights activist" and immediately thought "granola eating hippy." All of the people who work for the acronym are expected to dress a certain way (business casual at the least) and try not to look or act like the stereotype. I think it's done wonders for the movement.

It's really hard to get activists for any movement organized unless you have good, strong leadership and then good folks working below that leader. When there were threads about the protests happening in CA, my first thought was that they needed to do some outreach across the United States and have people go to Mormon temples across the United States at the same time in every state. It would make a huge statement and garner national press.

[NJPuggle]

26. Strange sudden idea

What is Obama's campaign staff doing now? The election was won; why don't they focus on Proposition 8 now?

Can you imagine what kind of media fireworks we'd see if THOSE guys put their brains to it?

I love your ideas by the way. I just feel helpless; I want to see them done. I want GLBT folks to be at the Mormon church protest the right way right now. Candlelight vigils, singing softly, using the language of the enemy peacefully against the enemy... I commented on a different post with more.

[bluedawg12]

22. NJPuggle - thank you for your support

I think this is a period of time when folks are still digesting what happened in Calif. and Fla. and Az.

Here's where I would disagree:

>>Show the black community that black gays have white gay support.<<

First, as far as I know, the gay community is by nature racially accepting- we have the tie that binds with our orientation.

What I want to hear, and to echo what from what I heard from the 60's black pride movement when they told us white folk that we needed to go back to our own communities and clean house, rather than coming down to "the inner city" with our good deeds.


I have yet to hear support from black Democrats that they if they understand our pain and yes, hurt, then, they will go back and reach out to their pastors and leaders to help put an end to stereotyping and fear of gays, or whatever it takes to pass the word and simply affirm that we are people.

Like Pres.E Obama says, "There is just one America."

[NJPuggle]

23. I think we're going to see it happen

There's this thing in the I Ching where the worst moment comes just before breakthrough...? Something shifted in the air this evening about an hour ago. I feel that maybe the anger reached critical mass and enough black people stood up and said "That's not MY vote" and were heard? Something... can't put my finger on it. I think we're about to see a double miracle here.

I can only hope, but I feel it. :hi:

[Book Lover]

25. We did that in San Francisco last night and it got us nothing

I don't think there were hymns sung, since, well you know, we're not all christians. But we held our candlelight vigil. So now what? We go to SLC and do it again? And when the cops come to tear gas us, are we supposed to sit there and take it, or are we allowed to fight back at that time?

[NJPuggle]

27. Honey it takes more than once

Look at the Free Tibet campaigns. They're still ongoing. But the entire world knows about them. Exposure, exposure, exposure.

It takes media saturation with repetition of imagery.

One time is neither saturation nor imagery. It has to be done over and over, the same way, by the numbers, like clockwork, like a military manuver - over and over again, until the same image becomes seared into the American consciousness. You want

"Did you see all those gays with candles outside that church in San Fran?"
"Yeah... that was scary man... and there's more happening all over the country..."
"Yeah, churches everywhere..."
"Yeah, and they were talking like Christians, man... talking about Jesus. WTF? Them people don't know nothing about Jesus, they're blah blah blahs... evil... etc..."

Then Sally goes home, switches on the TV and sees candlelight vigils AGAIN.
This time it's one near her town.
She knows where that church is and what road it's on.
A gay man is talking on the TV screen.

"Jesus said whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer."

Sally feels a guilty chill go down her spine.

Later we see Sally at the polls being interviewed by MSNBC:

"Why are YOU voting for gay marriage rights to be upheld?"
WHAT SHE THINKS IS THE REASON: "Um... way-el... I heard somethin' that made sense t' me. I believe in Jesus, and I don't thank Jesus hates nobahddy."
THE REAL REASON: media saturation and repetition of imagery

Get it?

[Book Lover]

28. Yeah I get it

And we all know how free Tibet is.

Any suggestions on what non-christians should do? Because as for myself, I am never singing another damn hymn again. And I sure don't know how the other atheists, pagans, Jews, Hindus, etc, that I know are going to do it.

Also, this suggestion it not going to be effective in swaying the Knights of Columbus-type Catholics. And not the Mormons, either. And what about the folks who voted for Prop 8 who are just plain old bigots? Maybe your ideas needs refinement to be an actual fit for the LGBT community; I am too tired to work it through with you.

[NJPuggle]

30. I feel how tired you are :(

But it has to be done. These are the same tricks my parents' generation used back when water cannons were being used on them, and they couldn't sit in the same movie theater section as whites, like you can sit among straights today. These tricks work. I want to see them work for YOU. There are not enough gay weddings and I need some damn cake and good music. So, I'm about to go to bed, but let me take your questions point by point best my admittedly amateur ideas can.

>>And we all know how free Tibet is.


Yes. But you also saw how China was shamed during the Summer Olympics for its oppression of Tibet. Tibet has also reaped huge increases in financial support and awareness for its cause. One day Tibet WILL be free. If there had been no Free Tibet campaign, China would safely assume no one in the West cared about Tibet, would likely be treating Tibetans far worse (no eyes to see them), and would be far less careful about its image around the world where it regards Tibet. Any exposure is good exposure. More PR may actually increase personal safety for gays and lesbians, because your average straight dingbat will know more about them, be hyperaware of them, and actually pay attention when two very large assholes follow a young small gay or lesbian out of a club towards a dark alley. More PR is a must. It perpetuates awareness; you're exhausted and beat down but you can't give up now.

>>Any suggestions on what non-christians should do?

1. Pose with the candle, be sure to look directly into the camera, flash peace symbols, dress conservatively for all photo ops, and provide warm bodies and numbers.

2. Pretend. Oscar moment. This cause is WORTH IT.

>>this suggestion it not going to be effective in swaying the Knights of Columbus-type Catholics

But it WILL affect their children and wives. Sympathetic children and wives affect bigoted fathers and husbands. This cause is WORTH IT.

>>I am never singing another damn hymn again.

Make it fun. Come up with parody lyrics that make fun of em. But be sure not to mouth them on camera. Do this privately.

>>And I sure don't know how the other atheists, pagans, Jews, Hindus, etc, that I know are going to do it.

They can provide warm bodies and numbers, or pretend too. Again, this cause is WORTH IT.

>>what about the folks who voted for Prop 8 who are just plain old bigots?

Bigotry never dies completely. We still have bigots plotting to murder 102 innocent black people and then assassinate Obama while wearing white tuxedos and top hats. (True story; recently foiled skinhead plot.) You'll never win the bigots. You want them to back down out of despair. That's what you want. Then their sympathetic children who loathe them can vote to protect you.

>>I am too tired to work it through with you.

We'll do it. Just invite me to your wedding. ;)

[depakid]

11. Usually we agree; this time maybe not

Scientific evidence has been accumulating over the past decade or two that points to clear physiological differences between predominantly homosexual and predominantly heterosexual people.

Applying the science to the law, the conclusion is becoming clearer that homosexuality in most cases is every bit as much an "immutable characteristic" as other categories and characteristics of people expressly enumerated under Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964 are.

You can read lay and quite conservative interpretations of "immutable characteristics" on the Bush administration's EEOC website:

http://www.eeoc.gov/facts/fs-race.html

As one begins to accept the scientific findings and question the "lifestyle choice" dogma- what we see logically is that the Civil Rights Act prohibits discrimination against gays as a matter of federal law and that the Supremecy Clause (Article VI, Clause 2 of the US Constitution) controls state laws that may otherwise allow many forms of ill treatment.

With respect to gay marraige or civil unions (which I support, provided that equal rights are sustained)- what this recognition does is bring the issue closer to the ambit of Loving v. Virginia (holding that bans on interracial marraige are unconstitutional).

[xchrom]

14. we do not yet disagree.

i fully agree with all of your posts above.

however they do not address the fact that A} homosexuality and the struggle for both identitiy and equality are fundamentally different

and B} our history while similar to racial equality are not the same.

[depakid]

24. Understood

My guess is (correct me if I'm wrong) -seems to me these issues have to do more with coming to terms about gender roles and insecurtities than they do about racial roles.

You make excellent points as usual.

[donco6]

19. Are you saying they're lesser? Or just different?

I'm not tracking you.

[Ediacara]

21. me either

[xchrom]

29. they're different.

from china to the u.s. to zambia

homophobia and the denial of equal rights for lgbtiq folk takes on all kinds of different aspects -- we run into the homophobia only that exists here.

even in the west -- considering that our homophobia borrows from homophobia from all over -- does not often run
into the kind of rational support it should.

if you are gay male may i suggest reading some of the late 19th century thinkers about us -- if you are a lesbian rean about the matachine society and more.