Another African Americans vs. Gay thread -- a quick explanation from a lesbian

[justiceischeap]

If exit polls are to be believed, it would seem that the African Americans who voted yes for 8 could have passed the proposition. That said, and after having read all of the threads that speak to this I'm going to try and summarize what doesn't seem to be getting said.

It would seem the gay community look at those polling numbers and think, "Geez, how is it that a bloc of people who have been discriminated against and fought so hard to garner their rights could vote to take away the rights of another group of people."

Ultimately that's the issue I see at hand. It's being said in a lot of horrible ways. It's bigotry against the gay community, that encompasses Black, White, Asian, Native American, Indian, etc., by whomever voted Yes on 8. It's persecution from a religious sect against human beings. It's lots of ugly things and it's hurtful, which inflames emotions and hurtful and divisive things are being said both ways. The most important thing we can do is figure out how these communities can work together to end this discrimination.

Another point I'd like to make is this discrimination won't be defeated without the help of straight folks. It just won't. Just like white folks helped during the African American civil rights movement, straight folks, if they really believe that we all deserve the same rights, must stand up and shout, "Enough!" and work in any way they can to end this.

[ruggerson]

1. I'm more concerned with figuring out what to do about it

I'm thinking that progressive clergy need to enlist black, gay clergy and mount a campaign of education.

[justiceischeap]

2. I agree but if some folks can't understand the issue

We'll never get to the point of working together.

[amdezurik]

4. so spamming the boards with dozens

of threads making the same preemptive strike of outrage over what you THINK some group "has" to think is an answer?

[justiceischeap]

5. Hmmm, I wouldn't see either of my posts as a preemptive strike

spamming, or trying to tell some group what to "think." I was just stating that as a member of the gay community, this seems to be the sentiment. If you'd like me to get some "outrage" going, I can certainly do that. If you're tired of seeing these threads, then hide it or don't participate.

I'm trying to figure out how we can stop hating one another and work together and your post seems to be a bit defensive.

[Voice for Peace]

8. The question comes to mind, is there a common good/goal that both sides can agree on?

? that would be the place to start.

[justiceischeap]

10. The only common good or goal I can see is that it's a respect issue

The gay community as a whole is being disrespected. I don't see how my right to marry carries a common goal within any minority community. However, that could be my short-sightedness.

[Change has come]

26. Of course.

WE just did. The African American community and the Latino community and the straight community and teh gay community just elected the man than may change the United States of America! :bounce: :bounce: :bounce:

[QC]

21. Donate a few bucks and then you can hide the threads that don't interest you.

Or you could just learn to scroll by them.

[Mind_your_head]

3. Maybe black/hispanics americans felt like they "had to give in somewhere"

They had the unbelieve (until recently) opportunity to vote for a black president. I think if you all in the gay/lesbian commmunity
"sit tight" for a little while longer......it will all become right/fair.

[justiceischeap]

7. Well, the "gay rights" movement started in 1969 in NYC

so we have been sitting tight and I think a lot of us realize, through looking at the history of the civil rights movement that it's not going to take place over night and that patience is key. Almost 40 years later and it seems at times like now, that we're going backward instead of forward.

I for one have great hope that Prop 8 won't become a part of the California constitution but it's not all about California either. Three other states voted AGAINST gay folks this election. It seems like every election cycle another state votes to take our rights away. It gets kind of disheartening. ;)

[readmoreoften]

22. No the gay rights movement started early than that.

Late 1800s the first tracts began. Trial of Oscar Wilde. All that.

[TexasObserver]

6. Very well said, and needed to be said.

I have been urging that the focus not be the "blacks," or "Hispanics," but the religous groups and the religious basis for this bias.

It is troubling that so many blacks can harbor anti gay attitudes, but that is rooted in religion, not being black.

[Mind_your_head]

9. Speaking just for "me".......I don't consider gay folks any different from me AT ALL.....

They just love someome that "I wouldn't*.....but, hey there are lots of people that I don't love, callous beeyatch that I am.....

I'm very happy for ANYONE who truly *loves* someone - is committed to be loyal to them. That is special, doesn't happen every day, an expression of character....."amen".

[readmoreoften]

15. The LGBT movement in America is as old as any other civil rights movement.

There were early struggles in the 30s and 40s (particularly lesbians in the military during WWII) but the equal rights movement really took off in the 50s with the Mattachine Society and Daughters of Bilitis. It "came out of the closet" so to speak after the Stonewall Riots. There was even "homophilic" literature in the 19th century (but back then feminism. prostitution, and homosexuality were oddly lumped together).

[justiceischeap]

17. A lot of folks don't realize how long we've been struggling with this

I mean, there was a time not too long ago it was considered a mental disease and we could be institutionalized.

I think sometimes the gay community isn't doing a good enough job educating folks.

[Mind_your_head]

19. I would tend to agree with that part of your comment

"gay community isn't doing a good enough job educating folks."

I'm straight, but I have (and have had) in the past friends and acquaintances who are gay. I found out 'some info/insight' from them that was valuable to understanding and having empathy.

But still, I have unanswered questions. I'm curious. I have questions sometimes that cross my mind about 'how it all works', but I'm afraid to ask my legitimate questions b/c

A) I don't want to be insulting, is foremost
B) I don't want to display my naivete

For instance, I know of a guy who owns a gay bar (with a backroom area, or some such). If he runs into a 'patron' on the street/out-and-about somewhere, he won't/can't acknowledge or say "hi", b/c then someone may ask, "how do you two know each other"? Is this 'backroom area' just for promiscuous gays? Are all gays promiscuous? (I've heard not).....but I DON'T KNOW how it all works in a gay world.

I don't think there can be 'support', unless our natural curiosity is sated about "the gay world".

Please don't be offended. People won't support too much that they don't "understand"....that's sensible.

So, yes! Education is key to "approval", imho.

M_Y_H

[readmoreoften]

23. It's hard to educate when your own history is so suppressed. Academics come out with new info daily.

It's crazy, really. But remember, most of our surviving relatives burn evidence of our lives and loves and political involvement to "protect our reputations" in our death.

Most of us are uneducated on our issues because it is very difficult to find, afford, and read all the info. We rely a lot of oral history and conversation "what did you read vs what I just read."

[MissMarple]

11. Too many people just don't understand this issue, this very real problem.

And understanding won't come, if they feel under attack. For many, I believe it is different from being a "fundamentalist", or "intolerant", or what ever. This isn't on their radar and they revert to what they grew up with. I'm not excusing this, just trying to understand it so we can move beyond it. These are not bad people, those who voted for 8, they are just people, and we all have our blind spots.

Legal unions are legal unions. As a deist, I really don't care if we call it that or "marriage". Marriage has its own baggage, and believing that "God" blesses a union because another person says so....well, I have problems with that. Others, of course, don't, they really need that affirmation. In my view, the state should recognize the union, the churches should take care of the "marriage" part as they wish. They are doing that anyway. For instance, there is a major earthquake going on among the Episcopalians over this.

Blaming each other won't help. For earnest church people of any color, this is a problem. Hopefully we can move beyond this. And there are ways to do it. It is necessary, it must happen. But we can't berate the churches into it. We shouldn't let this be another wedge in the culture wars.

Maybe it's a bit like taking the hostage out of the equation. Don't let them jerk your chain, and we all have them....chains.

Peace

[Sarah Ibarruri]

12. I have a friend who grew up in a poor black neighborhood who explained....

that blacks in poor neighborhoods DEPEND on their churches for emotional support. Now, what do you think is in the Bible? You got it. So that's why many blacks are obsessed with churches and why their vote might have been affected by churches.

This is why I say that we have to get rid of churches. I know I sound like a lunatic, but that's my view.

[justiceischeap]

13. And what I don't understand about blind faith

Doesn't the Bible condone slavery? I mean wasn't that an argument used against eliminating slavery and during the civil rights movement? It seems these days the Bible is used to express much more hateful things then good. It's okay to hate gays, it's in the Bible, it's okay to own slaves, it's in the Bible, it's okay to stone my wife to death for adultery, it's in the Bible, it's okay to beat my kids, it's in the Bible. I obviously could go on and on.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

14. Of course! But when you're poor and black, and all you have is your church, you hold on to it

and you believe anything it says in that book.

Which is why I think we need jobs, fairness, and to get rid of these sicko bigoted churches. Christian churches have done a lot of wrong in the name of good, but they are not good. They are the very evil they seek to destroy.

[readmoreoften]

16. Lets also not forget how slavery brutally decimated the black family in America.

Children and fathers and mothers being torn apart gives "family values" a different urgency I think. I think that might be one component.

[Political Tiger]

18. "The most detestable wickedness, the most horrid cruelties,

....and the greatest miseries that have afflicted the human race have had their origin in this thing called revelation, or revealed religion." -Thomas Paine

And you are correct about African-Americans and church. African-Americans in poor neighborhoods do depend on their churches, and unfortunately, it seems religion is better at teaching people how to hate instead of how to love. That goes for "white" churches as well. Also, especially in African-American culture, there is a certain macho mentality. Over the years African-Americans were treated less than human, men were, and still are in some places, called boys....and many African-Americans, especially men, have learned to over compensate as a coping skill. Of course, this is true for white people and Hispanics and other groups of people, but in the black community it is more prevalent I believe.

The answer is education. Being gay doesn't make you any less of a man, nor should someone else being gay threaten your own manhood. This will take time. The more African-Americans that come out the easier this will be able to be understood by those who think you have to be tough and macho to be a man.

But the greatest poison of all is religion. More and more churches are becoming accepting of gay people, but the change must come from within the pews.

[Mind_your_head]

20. Everybody is "looking for some 'good' in this troubled world"

We know it's "good" when no one is beating up on *me*.

We know it's "great" when no one is beating up on "me" and no one is beating up on my neighbor either.

Peace,
M_Y_H

[QC]

24. There is a fundamental misunderstanding of human nature behind this controversy.

Many otherwise intelligent people believe that those who have been shit upon instinctively know that it is wrong to shit upon others.

The unfortunate truth of the matter, however, is that most people who have been shit upon desperately want someone to shit upon.

In most places in the world, the safest group to shit upon is the sexual minorities.

[AZBlue]

25. You lost me at "African Americans vs. Gay"

[Mind_your_head]

27. I 'understand'. And why I ever posted on this thread to begin with

is "my first mistake".....well, probably not my *first* mistake here at DU (but hopefully you understand my meaning with that).