Minorities backed gay marriage ban

[AndyA]

Such a nice thing to see first thing this morning.

Thanks everyone for your support.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/27584685/

One step forward, and a huge step back. What the fuck is wrong with people?

[kansasblue]

1. DU has been aurguing this in many threads but there it is....

"It was closer in California, but no ethnic group anywhere rejected the sanctioning of same-sex unions as emphatically as the state's black voters, according to exit polls."


So I expect this thread to get a little hot too.

[cboy4]

2. It's very sad.

Yes indeed.

[Morrisons Ghost]

3. This is a cultural thing!

In my experience, african americans are generally more socially conservative when it comes to gay issues as well as abortion....I think it has something to do with being brought up in the church where homosexuality is still considered a sin and abortion is considered murder!

[QC]

4. Shhhh!!! You're not supposed to talk about this!!!

Please, just avert your eyes politely and change the subject!

[IndianaJones]

5. its disgusting. nt.

[gollygee]

6. It's an issue of religion

Progressives need to find a way to reach out to moderates who attend church regularly. Not the way-right - there's no point there. But there are a lot of moderates who go to church regularly and often vote for Democrats. It sounds like not very many of that group of people - white or black - voted against Prop 8. Their churches told them to vote for it and they did. How can we get our voice heard over that?

[IndianaJones]

7. African Americans are slightly less conservative than white fundamentalists on such issues.

moderate? where?

[gollygee]

8. Moderates who go to church regularly

both black and white. You don't know any white moderate regular church-goers? I know tons. Most voted for Kerry four years ago, but most if not all voted for Michigan's same-sex marriage ban at that time. Those people can be reasoned with. Moderate black regular church-goers are the same. The hard core fundamentalists can't, but there aren't enough of them to get any laws passed on their own.

[IndianaJones]

9. what I am saying is that the minorities that voted for this do not attend moderate churches...

for the most part. Very very few do.

[gollygee]

10. It depends on how you define moderate churches

If they're voting for pro-choice candidates, they aren't as far right as most fundies.

[IndianaJones]

11. what? they voted for a candidate that opposed prop 8! and then voted for prop 8. lmao .nt.

[gollygee]

12. They were told that Obama was for Prop 8

the yes on 8 groups gave out lots of misinformation.

[IndianaJones]

14. they are told in their moderate churches that homosexuality is a sin. why defend bigots? nt.

[gollygee]

17. If their bigotry is the result of ignorance and they can be taught better

then maybe the next time this goes up for a vote, things will be different.

[IndianaJones]

18. do you feel the same for white fundamentalists? nt.

[gollygee]

19. The hard core ones are too far gone, but yes I feel the same way about a lot of

white regular church-goers.

[IndianaJones]

20. these minorities are the hard core ones. Obama himself opposes gay marriage

on religious grounds.

[gollygee]

22. I don't believe 70% of black people are hard core fundies

Obama is just one person. You can't compare every black person to him.

[IndianaJones]

24. I am saying that he comes from a so-called moderate church, opposes gay marriage...

yet did not support prop 8. the minorities that voted for this are hard core fundamentalists. They are bigots, homophobes. Making excuses for them as being misled or mistaken is ridiculous. Can they be changed? Maybe. Are their attitudes disgusting and hateful? Yeah.

[gollygee]

25. Yes they are bigots

AND that could be changed. It isn't an either/or. If even just the most moderate 30% of that 70% could be changed, that vote could have been different.

[Morrisons Ghost]

27. The problem is

I don't think they consider this a civil rights issue,I think if you tried to present it as one especially to an african american man he would laugh in your face!

[gollygee]

28. No I understand that a lot of African Americans don't see parallels with the civil rights movement

But that doesn't mean that their views on whether same-sex couples should be able to get married can't be changed.

In fact, it's possible that their views WERE changed by the other side - the Yes on 8 groups spent TONS of money in minority communities. Maybe if that hadn't happened the number wouldn't have been 70%.

[Morrisons Ghost]

31. I'm not so sure

That their minds were changed by the other side. I think this is a cultural thing as well{I have actually heard black men refer to homosexuals as "Sissies" or "punks"}They seem to share the whole machismo thing along with latino men! So IMO this is more than likely a two pronged problem 1. The church 2.The macho cultural thing{Just as an aside many white men are this way as well obviously!}

[gollygee]

32. I'm not positive about it

I just think it's one thing worth looking at in an attempt to change how people see things.

There has been a lot of change in public opinion on this issue already. In Michigan, 4 years ago, a similar proposal passed by a ridiculous margin. I was trying to google it but I couldn't find the results. But it must have been around 70% to 30% overall. Maybe 65% to 35%? Anyway, it seems like public perception on same-sex marriage has changed a lot over the past four years for the better. And if that's so, then it seems possible that public perception could continue to change for the better. That vote was SO CLOSE. Just a few more people voting against it and everything would be different.

[JI7]

15. the pro 8 people told them Obama supported it

[IndianaJones]

16. their fundamentalist churches have been telling them it is a sin and immoral for decades.

are you arguing that they are stupid? it is bigotry. plain and simple.

[donco6]

34. I was told that, too. Did I choose to believe it? No.

Why is that an excuse?

[IndianaJones]

35. its not an excuse. nt.

[cboy4]

29. Baloney. They're not stupid. They're just ridiculous.

There's a difference.

[krabigirl]

48. Maybe we should work on getting people to stop listening to their churches?

Nah, that would be too rational. It makes me SICK that this passed because of people being brainwashed by priests and pastors. Can't you believe in God and not be like this? (I'm an atheist but I know of Unitarians and liberal Christians who are like this.)

[gollygee]

51. They are gay Christians so obviously yes.

People don't have to give up their religion. They just have to take this one hateful issue out of their religion. There has to be a way to frame this issue to make Christians see that Jesus didn't look fondly on people who hated others for being different.

[bridgit]

13. yeah they did

[closeupready]

21. Random, anonymous sex may be fun but it's a poor substitute for a meaningful relationship.

Do they not get that? Do they hate their own brothers and sisters and sons and daughters?

[MountainLaurel]

40. Often they don't know about those brothers and sisters and sons

And daughters, but yes, they very well might hate them, kick them out of the house, never talk to them again if they knew the truth.

[bigwillq]

23. Very, very sad.

We have some serious work to do to separate church and state. The religious influence was a major factor, but it's still disheartening when one minority group denies equal rights for another. :mad: :( :cry:

[yardwork]

26. Remember that the exit poll may be wrong.

[dembotoz]

30. big tent democratic party

we tend to fight each other as much as we fight republicans.

It is sometime amazing that we can elect anyone......

[Mari333]

33. and obama is against gay marriage also, sadly.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=73oZ_pe1MZ8
this reminds me of the 1950s. the change will come for gay rights, but slowly, is seems, as it was with the civil rights initiated in that era. too bad so many people who were discriminated against for so long in US history now choose to be part of another discrimination.

[IndianaJones]

36. but he opposed prop 8. nt.

[RedCappedBandit]

47. That doesn't matter. He opposes gay marriage.

[Blue_Tires]

37. honestly: could you not have posted this in the other 200 open threads

in GD and GDP??

[AndyA]

39. No I could not.

Is it making you uncomfortable?

This was a new news story this morning. I opened a new thread.

[Aristus]

38. Every minority wants a minority they can hate.

Human nature, unfortunately.

[yardwork]

44. That's not a helpful comment.

[AndyA]

41. So let me get one thing straight here. (Pardon the pun.)

You are born gay. You are born black. You are born female. You have NO CHOICE in the matter. It's just the way it is.

You do, however, CHOOSE what to believe. You CHOOSE your religion. You CHOOSE to allow contradictory thoughts to permeate your mind. You accept that some people aren't created equal. These are CHOICES people make.

So, they feel they are entitled to the same rights as everyone else, regardless of their skin color or gender or whatever. These are, after all, perfectly natural things that are quite normal. But they feel it's OK to identify a group of people who are gay, despite the fact that it too is perfectly natural and normal, and discriminate against them.

And by doing so, they just reinforce the beliefs of those who feel that black people, or women, or whoever, shouldn't have the same rights because...well...they're not the same as everyone else.

Got that? :eyes:

[RedCappedBandit]

49. Yep. nt

[chimpymustgo]

42. So how many threads today shitting on BLACK PEOPLE?? Just gotta blame THE BLACKS.

Thanks.

[Name removed]

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[yardwork]

45. You know, I've started several threads trying to discuss this calmly and you ignore them.

You go around posting in all caps and screaming at people but you and some others have been noticeably absent from all the calmer threads.

[Name removed]

46. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

50. Deleted message

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[AndyA]

52. The facts are what they are.

I don't think any of us are happy about it, but they are indeed the facts.

[EFerrari]

53. The fact is the media is hyping this exaggeration of what a small number

of California voters did. They make it sound as if black voters passed this all by themselves which is impossible. 7% of the vote, that's what they were.

Have you seen any media outlet reporting that with this huge turnout, we did BETTER this time on gay marriage than last time it was put to a vote? No.

[bean fidhleir]

54. Since when should anyone's rights be put to a vote?

I think you're losing sight of that principle. Rights are rights for all, or they're nothing but permissions.

[EFerrari]

55. You're responding to something I didn't say and don't believe.

The Catholic Church engineered this. They invited the Mormons into California and then, they turned around and shifted blame to the Black Church.

That has nothing to do with whether this POS should have been on the ballot in the first place.

[bean fidhleir]

56. Maybe I'm being less than clear about what I'm trying to get at

Certainly the Black vote is only a small fraction of the problem. Since Black people are only 12% of the population, no matter how much anyone wants to blame them, they can't be blamed for anything where the absolute margin is more than that - which I think this was.

But on the other hand, Black folk more than anyone else know what discrimination is all about. If there is *any* group with a reason to say "HELL NO!" to making people second-class citizens, it's Black people. But we saw Black people voting from their religious prejudices, not from their experience of bigotry and hatred. We would have seen a 99% HELL NO vote if they had voted from their and their families' experience rather than the (thoroughly UN-christian) bigotry of their churches.

What I was trying to get across is that we shouldn't be trying to alibi the ones who failed that fundamental test of christian caritas. They did fail it, and they need to carry that can.

We're obviously on the same page that someone's rights as a citizen should never depend on anyone else's agreement!

[Karenina]

57. Tell it to the Israelis.

Much as we all wish it would, it DOESN'T work like that.

[EFerrari]

58. The black population in CA is now only 7%.

And we have been thoroughly propagandized on the role of black voters in passing this abomination.

I agree with you that we need to reach out to all communities and bring as many decent people to our side. And with some investment, I know they will join us. :)

[Liberal_in_LA]

59. Well maybe DUers will give blacks a break, and focus on another group. sheesh.