Prop 8: Sunshine best policy; an opportunity for growth.

[Psyop Samurai]

In the aftermath of the Prop 8 debacle, some DUers have expressed outrage at what they perceive as the Black community being "dumped on". To me, that is a selective reading that falls short, and I don't think it serves us well at the moment or in the long run.

No doubt there have been some reckless and insensitive comments (aren't there always?), but in the face of the critical dialog that has emerged, I find them to be more of a footnote.

The fact is, we KNOW what the numbers mean, and, in truth, they are far worse than have been represented.

Question: What do you call white people who voted for Prop 8?

Answer: Assholes. And, in a large percentage, Republicans.

Black voters? Not so much.

In fact, most of those black voters we (naively?) identify with in common cause. Add in the irony of Obama's election (a genuine triumph), and the issue of homophobia in the black community comes into sharp relief. It can not be otherwise. To deny it, to try to sweep it under the rug in some false spirit of "unity", is self-defeating.

As a white gay male, what bugs me more than a perceived "dumping" on black folks is holding them to a different standard. I think it's patronizing. And no, you don't have to be "culturally insensitive". You can negotiate differences with intelligence and understanding, as I think we've witnessed in recent days.

It seems that I and others have been operating under some false assumptions regarding the presumably self-evident nature of civil rights issues among our black compatriots. As for those who are "offended" that we would besmirch your great civil rights legacy, well, we take offense at your offense. What makes you so special? You need to get over yourself.

No doubt there are some DUers and their defenders who are stuck in defensive mode (a criticism that could be leveled against my GLBT brethren as well), but to me, the overriding good news is how some wise black voices have risen to the occasion, and confronted the issue head-on. And guess what? They're big boys and girls just like me, and don't need to be coddled. These are the people I thought must be out there somewhere, and lo and behold, they're right here on DU.

Yes, there is much "blame" to go around. There is racism in the gay community. There is complacency. There are faulty assumptions and misunderstanding.

But to me it isn't about blame. It is about opening a dialog; about sunshine as the best disinfectant. I want to hear what people in the black community have to say, without some paralyzing fear of offending. This, I think, is the way to move forward, with better understanding and shared commitment.

[Cronus Protagonist]

1. True story.

I was at the No on 8 demonstration in downtown Los Angeles the day before the election. I wasn't wearing any sticker or carrying any signs, but I was there and watched the whole thing up to a point.

So I started walking home... I live a few blocks from the demonstration site and I was walking about a block away from the demonstration and I heard a loud booming voice behind me say "Why do these people bring that stuff here? They should take it to West Hollywood (gay friendly city) where they would be more welcome."

I was shocked at such a suggestion. Should Rosa Parks have sat in the "black" section where her protest would have been more welcome? Should Martin Luther King Jr. have stayed in the black ghettos where his message would have been better received?

So I turned around and raised my voice over the bigot and his companion and told him that he was no better than a racist.

These two black folk were surprised to hear that from a white man. I think that perhaps they thought they were far enough away from those that they despise to be able to voice their bigotry without retribution. Much like some white racists would keep their views private in the presence of members of the despised group, but talk loudly when they were not present, these two black folk must have thought they were safe to express their bigotry.

They were not, and I like to think that these were two Obama supporters who might have done the right thing when they hit the ballot box, but somehow I don't think that deep seated bigotry can be repaired simply by a passing comment in the street.

So what did I learn? Bigotry isn't the domain of only white folk and black folk are not necessarily sympathetic to our struggle, and in fact, some of them are the enemy of our civil rights.

True story.

[Psyop Samurai]

11. No, bigotry isn't only the domain of white folk...

...but I also think that the generally higher level of homophobia which I have experienced among black associates is not necessarily malicious or set in stone. In other words, these are people I actually like, not assholes. But I feel ill-equipped to address it.

There was an excellent post from DU's marmar yesterday:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x4397107

Frankly, I think that he is in a better position to address this. But that's one example of why I think this discussion can be fruitful. There are things that I sort of know, but don't have direct experience with, which have been well-articulated by some fellow DUers.

[Ian David]

2. I don't blame "The Black Folks." I blame the conservative Black Clergy that are misleading them.

They were told that if Marriage Equality were allowed to stand, that their church would be forced to conduct gay wedding ceremonies or lose their tax exempt status.

If I belonged to a church, and if I believed this, then even I would have voted for Prop 8, even though I believe in Marriage Equality.

However, since I am neither morbidly ignorant, nor as dumb as a bag of Jawas, I never would believe something so obviously false.

"Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities." In my humble opinion, the idea that there's an invisible man in the sky who wants you to hate gay people is an absurdity, and voting against Marriage Equality is an atrocity.

There isn't much we can do right away about curing stupid, but I think we can and should hold accountable those who have perpetrated these lies.

Hold them up to the light of day, hold them up to ridicule, hold them up to face the consequences-- and then, hopefully, those who they have duped, will finally see the light.



See prior thread:

Why African-Americans Voted for Prop 8 and why The Mormons fought for it (Boot-licking Bullies)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=221&topic_id=87922&mesg_id=87922

[laconicsax]

3. You can take "black" out of what you said and it still holds true.

"I don't blame folks. I blame the conservative clergy that are misleading them."

It has nothing to do with race, though I can tell from your other post that you think it has everything to do with race.

[Ian David]

4. Agreed. The problem is the conservative clergy and not race.

However, the reason why I emphasized race in my prior posts was because I was rehashing old stuff I posted from a prior discussion that had more to do with race than with religion.

But yes, race still DOES factor into this.

And the reason why, is because of RACISM.

Conservative Black clergy are either exploiting-- or being manipulated by-- the centuries of racism that they have had inflicted upon them.

Rather than using their own history of fighting racism and applying those lessons the way Liberal Black clergy like Martin Luther King, Jr. and Coretta Scott King did, Conservative Black clergy are instead either twisting those lessons into an excuse to oppress others, becoming boot-licking bullies, oppressing those beneath them while licking the boots of the more powerful, out of fear that if they do not, the hammer of racism will come down still harder upon them.

[Ian David]

6. This whole issue may have been rendered inoperative anyway. See this thread...

Kos: Facts Belie the Scapegoating of Black People for Proposition 8
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x7821193

[laconicsax]

7. It was never a real issue.

In order to be solely responsible for the passage of prop 8, African Americans would have to be the largest demographic in the electorate.

[Ian David]

8. Agreed. Let's put this behind us and go back to The Mormons again. n/t

[laconicsax]

10. Only if by "The Mormons" you mean the church leadership that promoted the 'Yes on 8' campaign.

[Ian David]

12. Yes. The Mormons who live next door aren't to blame unless they have that yellow sign. n/t

[NashVegas]

13. I Think People Do Realize That the Numbers Show It Would Still Have Passed

If AA's had voted along with the average of most other voters, by race.

It's just that GLBT people are *upset* and they have a right to be, regardless. Is their anger wrongly directed? I don't know. I do know that if I were in their shoes, the irony would be more than I could take.

[Ioo]

5. Well said... Prop 8 on the same day as So many voted Obama, that hurt

me in a very deep place....

I think that the issue is worth talking about. I think it shows where the GLBT movement has some work to do... but I also think it is dumb to just "spin" it away... there is an issue here that needs to be addressed.

[Psyop Samurai]

9. Me too... thanks for getting it...

There is a concerted effort afoot to suppress discussion by castigating people for "scapegoating", while blathering about demographic statistics in California.

But like I said, to me it's not even about blame - it's about facing the hard truth, dialog and learning. I want to hear what people have to say. I want a better understanding going forward.