Discussing the overwhelming proportion of African-American support for Prop. 8 is...

[Occam Bandage]

[XemaSab]

1. Where's the "both" option?

Obviously black people are not singlehandedly responsible for the defeat of this hateful measure, but it highlights the lack of organization and coordination in California.

[Occam Bandage]

3. You bring up a good point, but I made the poll binary on purpose.

Blaming the success of Prop 8 on black people, after all, is different from discussing the black support of Prop 8 (though discussion of one invariably bleeds into the other). I'm only interested in views on that discussion. Your point as written would support the second choice, I think.

Still, I understand that many people might not feel comfortable voting for either. I suppose that withholding a vote might be the best choice there.

[booley]

26. I think that's a fallacy

Since black voters for the bill certainly had an impact even if they arent' entirely to blame.

The choices force people into only two possibilities and if many people don't agree with either, they can be forced to pick an answer they sorta of but not really agree with. A partly wrong answer is still a wrong answer.

And having people simply not vote won't work either since all that accomplishes is to hide data.

either way you end up with a skewed result that doesn't really tell you anything.

[Occam Bandage]

28. And, again. This poll does not have anything to do with blame. nt

[damntexdem]

2. It's a real issue, but far from the only one.

For example, there are those who sponsored the Proposition. Here is a petition regarding the tax exemption of the Mormon (LDS) Church: http://www.mormonsstoleourrights.com/#petition.

[Occam Bandage]

4. I agree. Black support for the measure was necessary but certainly not close to sufficient. nt

[Occam Bandage]

5. kick for votes.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

6. Blaming gays for the 2004 presidential loss...

Scaping goating a minority?

Or a fair dicussion of how they cost us the election?

[jonnyblitz]

9. if polls showed that we gays overwhelmingly voted for Bush

in 2004 than I would say YES blame us or, better yet, try to find out WHY instead of denying it. :shrug:

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

10. The polls showed...

that the gay marriage issue drove conservatives to the polls.

:shrug:

[Chovexani]

11. jonny, I would love to explain why

I've done so over and over again but people would much rather scream "FUCK BLACK PEOPLE" than listen.

So I'm shutting the hell up and going back to World of Warcraft.

[jesus_of_suburbia]

35. Ask Donna Brazille... she said on CNN that Kerry lost because of the gays. Thanks Donna.

[slampoet]

7. Blaming Gays for railroading the Clinton Admin in 1993 ...Divisive truth or hidden fact?

See? anyone can be blamed.

[joshcryer]

8. African-Americans voted for it 20%-25% higher than *any* other race or ethic group.

In fact, from the stats, *every other group* was divided on the issue. Roughly 50-50 split.

This is not to "blame" anyone, however, because it passed by too significant of a margin for that 25% to actually have mattered very much (well, it would've closed the gap doing some paper napkin math but still).

But that doesn't preclude the very real fact of black homophobia from being discussed.

It's akin to talking about racism in the midwest because many people in CO voted for "the black candidate" but shot down the Affirmative Action ammendment. If I were to start a discussion about that hardly anyone would care.

[kwassa]

12. For a total influence of maybe 8% of the yes vote. What about the other 92%?

[Occam Bandage]

13. Can we discuss that 70% figure outside of the context of blame? nt

[Chovexani]

15. No, we can't.

Believe me, I have been trying.

[Occam Bandage]

19. It's too bad. I think that homophobia in the African-American community is

a major issue for both the gay community and the African-American community itself (and it is important to note that these are not always mutually-exclusive), and I think that Prop 8 is forcing what could be a very significant discussion. At the same time, there are quite a few roadblocks.

There's real (and justified) anger and pain in the gay community over Prop 8 and the similar assaults on equality across the nation, and that negativity is coming across loud and clear. At the same time, the African-American community is acutely sensitive to outsiders telling blacks that they're morally deficient.

That's what I've seen so far, at any rate.

[Chovexani]

21. There has been a lot of talk about black homophobes

Rightfully so. There has also not been nearly enough talk about racism in the LGBT community.

Being black and queer, I've seen my fair share of both, and people like me tend to get ignored because we don't fit the neat us vs. them argument.

[kwassa]

23. I've seen racism in the white gay community myself.

in attitudes expressed about black people. I'm only talking about some, of course, but don't assume that positive attitudes about gays moves over to other minorities, as well. An individual can be quite progressive on one issue, and very regressive on another. Consistency is not required in humans.

Both groups can be quite parochial within their own communities.

[Raineyb]

18. You've shown absolutely no interest in that so far.

I seriously doubt that that's changed.

Regards

[Occam Bandage]

20. I'm aware that people like to look for enemies.

Don't assume malevolence.

[kwassa]

22. What about the other 92%? Where do we discuss that? Not on DU, apparently.

or are we going to keep focusing on those terrible 8%?

[Occam Bandage]

27. If you would like to focus on the minority of white people who voted yes on 8, feel free

to start a thread on that.

[kwassa]

31. Minority? How many whites voted for it vs. how many blacks??????

Each vote being the equal of any other, how did blacks cause this to pass, and whites did not?

[Occam Bandage]

36. 45% versus 70%. Are you suggesting

that there is less homophobia in the black community because there are fewer blacks?

[kwassa]

39. Actual vote numbers, not percentages. You distort the issue.

Keep ducking the question.

[Occam Bandage]

40. The issue is not how to affix blame for the bill's passing.

The issue is not playing "look other people can be bigots too.". The issue is bringing a very real, culturally pervasive, and often-hidden form of bigotry into the daylight.

[kwassa]

44. It sure comes across that way.

and bigotry can extend two ways.

[joshcryer]

14. Looks like it would've been blocked by 32k votes if AA resembled Latinos...

...after actually doing the math.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=4399114&mesg_id=4400024

Quaint. Maybe there is blame to be had here after all. I didn't think it mattered that much. Intitution is often skewed.

[Raineyb]

16. I don't think it was even 8% of the vote

But the author of the poll's agenda is to blame black people for Prop 8 passing. It's been his purpose since Wednesday.

Regards

[yardwork]

29. It's clear that the purpose of some here is to shut down discussion of this issue entirely.

The message I get is loud and clear - "Shut up, stupid fags. We don't care about you anyway. And don't you dare ask why people voted to strip you of your right to marriage. That's racist!"

That's what it looks like to me.

[kwassa]

32. It is clear that the purpose of some here is to vilify black people.

by blaming them for something that they had a very small influence on.

Where is the outrage over the other members of those who voted yes on Prop 8?

[yardwork]

34. Point to a single post or thread blaming black people.

[kwassa]

42. Point to all the threads started ABOUT black people?

This focus in and of itself should cause the authors to check themselves. Where are the comparitive threads on all the other groups that voted for Prop 8? Black voters are less than 8% of the total yes vote.

There are plenty of individual posts calling blacks bigots.

[Occam Bandage]

43. 70% of CA blacks *are* bigots. nt

[kwassa]

46. and if you repeat that 1000 more times, what does that prove?

How obsessed you are with black people?

[Occam Bandage]

47. It doesn't have to be proven. It's plain fact no matter how often you try to change the subject.

If you don't think that culturally-accepted bigotry is a problem, then I question your involvement with this board.

[kwassa]

48. Change what subject? Your avoidance of the small numbers of black voters?

Culturally accepted bigotry towards African-Americans? I have a big problem with that. I have a big problem with bigotry towards anyone.

I have big problems with those that attack a minority that are not the source of the problem.

[nadinbrzezinski]

17. It is fair to discuss this and to discuss this in the sense of the

level of outreach and education that still needs to happen

For the record, not only among AA ...

And it needs to be discussed OPENLY for many reasons, that include HIV\AIDs as well

[booley]

24. I can no more blame blacks then I can whites

Since bigots of both races voted for this.

and non-bigots of both races voted against.

Civil rights is not a racial issue nor a gender nor an orientation issue. It's a Human RIGHTS issue. If you qualify as human, you should get the same rights as every other human. People who would deny that are pretty much the same even if the specific groups they would oppress are different.

(with apologies to any sentient non-humans out there)

[Dogtown]

25. The real issue

is the money behind it. Sure, we still need to get our own message out, but our only significant avenues at this point are litigation to restore the rights of the victims, and depriving the haters of funding.

[Taverner]

30. Um, complete bullshit

The numbers show that white people voted for it just as much as black people

[Occam Bandage]

37. Do you have a link to such an exit poll?

[Taverner]

38. It was on msnbc.com earlier

I'm not going to go digging for it...

Blacks are being scapegoated, because the media thrives on conflict.

Last thing they want is our unity

[Occam Bandage]

41. Until I see numbers conflicting with CNN's, I'm going to take that with a grain of salt. nt

[TheWatcher]

45. And subsequently, we'll take every innane post like this for

The inane bullshit it is.

That sounds fair. :)

[mondo joe]

33. There are 2 issues being conflated in these discussions:

1. The actual loss on Prop 8, in which African Americans did not make up the majority of the vote, nor could have blocked passage even if all African American Californians voted as a block.

2. The seeming preponderance of feeling in California's African American population/community that same sex couples should not have the right to legally recognized marriage.

I think it would be easier to discuss one or the other. But they are poison together.

[IndianaJones]

49. that is not the only state where that is the general feeling among african americans. nt.