OK - who's fault is Prop 8? Not black people, but RELIGION

[Taverner]

Can I hear it from you guys? RELIGION IS BULLSHIT

Has nothing to do with the color of your skin - Dobson is just as much of a homophobe as Alan Keyes.

Who pushed Prop 8? THE MORMON CHURCH. THE FUNDIES AND EVANGELICALS. THE CATHOLIC CHURCH. (in other words, RELIGION)

So who's fault is it? RELIGION

Who should we be directing our hate? RELIGION

Who is pushing bronze age ideas in 2008? RELIGION

Who once asserted with complete confidence that the Earth was flat, illnesses were the result of sin and that the universe revolves around Earth?

RELIGION

What made Mohammed Atta and his buddies fly planes into buildings on 9/11? RELIGION

What made a Somalian Sharia Court stone a 13-year old girl to death for being raped? RELIGION

What sends children to attack abortion clinics, and shoot doctors? RELIGION

What kept us back from technology? RELIGION

What deemed BSD as a "Satanic OS"? RELIGION

So who's at fault?

Is it: Black People?

Is it: White People?

Is it: Obama Supporters?

NO - IT'S RELIGION

And it will be until we turn all of our churches into the museums they need to be, so we can look back and laugh at our stupidity.

[Ian David]

1. You're preaching to the choir. Thank god someone said it. n/t

[Leopolds Ghost]

63. Replace every word with WITCHES. WITCHES are to blame!

Combine bigotry with religious intolerance FTW!

[ColbertWatcher]

134. Replace the letter "e" with the number "5" and it would make as much sense as your comment! n/t

[LittleClarkie]

136. THEY'VE TURNED ME INTO A NEWT!

But I got better.

[Greyhound]

176. What was it that started that cry? Religion. n/t

[stray cat]

2. Intolerance, hate and evil know no bounds - scapegoating of entire groups

depersonalizes people no matter who you are claming is "the other"

[Taverner]

7. Yes but religion isn't merely the other

They are an organization, a business if you will hell bent on regaining the power they lost in the enlightenment.

And part of that involves pushing their magic books.

[Lance_Boyle]

12. religion SURVIVES by scapegoating the out-group

whitewash your black pot before you go lecturing us kettles.

[Taverner]

16. W00t! Exactly

And the ones that don't scapegoat (say Metropolitan Community Church) are more or less communities, not religions. They don't look to the bible as their guide to live their lives. Maybe a verse here or there but the Bible (and Koran) are the most homophobic, racist, xenophobic books out there. Given any other circumstance and they would be taken off library shelves and put in the adult sections.

[LittleClarkie]

117. Which religion? All of them?

At the moment one Mormon group is being protested. I could understand if people wanted to blame individual churches that worked for this referendum, but no one group is "all" anything.

Religion, like a gun, is a tool. It is up to the people who wield each to do so wisely.

Or would you fight intolerance with more intolerance?

[ColbertWatcher]

137. One religion interjected itself into this initiative. The others stayed silent. n/t

[LittleClarkie]

139. These people aren't silent

http://svmomblog.typepad.com/la_moms_blog/2008/11/being-a-christi.html

http://michael-in-norfolk.blogspot.com/2008/10/christians-against-proposition-8.html

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lanow/2008/10/fight-against-p.html

http://streetprophets.com/storyonly/2008/10/29/161630/27

I can look for more.

The second link contains an ad against Prop 8 that was placed and includes the names of the churches that sponsored the ad.

They are:
Almaden Hills United Methodist Church, San Jose
Alum Rock United Methodist Church, San Jose
Campbell United Church of Christ Council
Campbell United Methodist Church
Celebration Of Faith Church, San Jose
Center for Spiritual Living, San Jose
College Heights United Church of Christ, San Mateo
First Christian Church, San Jose
First Congregational Church of Palo Alto, Peace & Justice Task Force
First Congregational Church of San Jose,
United Church of Christ
First Presbyterian Church of Palo Alto
First United Methodist Church of Palo Alto
First Unitarian Church of San Jose
Grace Baptist Church, San Jose
Holy Redeemer Lutheran Church of San Jose
Metropolitan Community Church of San Jose
Morgan Hill United Methodist Church
New Community of Faith, San Jose (U.C.C. & American Baptist)
St. Jude's Episcopal Church, Social Justice/Outreach Committee,Cupertino
St. Mark’s Episcopal Church, Santa Clara
St. Paul’s United Methodist Church, San Jose
St. Thomas Episcopal Church, Sunnyvale
Stone Church of Willow Glen (Presbyterian), San Jose
Trinity Episcopal Cathedral, San Jose
Unitarian Universalist Church of Palo Alto Board

Silent, my ass.

[robinlynne]

3. 2,600,000 as yet unprocessed, uncounted ballots, still missing San Francicsco's numbers!

WAKE UP AND COUNT THE VOTES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Taverner]

4. Exactly eom

[nichomachus]

39. Not going to change anything

For Prop Hate to fail, the remaining votes would have to come in at 58 percent against -- and given the distribution so far, that's not going to happen. If it did, I would be surprised beyond belief. I give it a two percent chance, if that.

Once you've counted a certain number of ballots across the state, the pattern emerges.

One pattern in vote counting is that as the returns come in, you see swings as different parts of the state report. So, if you have a few small towns, it will go one way. Then, a big city can swing it the other and it becomes a see-saw battle for a while. Once you've got reports statewide, then it's safe to assume the rest of the ballots will follow the pattern.

In fact, it's quite likely it could go the other way. Some minorities voted quite heavily in favor of the proposition, and they're the ones who, for a lot of reasons, will be heavily represented among provisional ballots.

Be hopeful, but don't count on anything.

[robinlynne]

50. You now have all the rural votes. All the young voters in LA had to vote on provisonal ballots.

Hundreds of thousands of long time Dems idem.

the patterns?
are you kidding?
this state was counted over 55% by Diebold.
Well over 2,600,00 uncounted votes. URBAN DEMOCRATIC VOTES> plus SAN FRANICSCO's, uncounted still; unreported.

[nichomachus]

56. I have a shiny new quarter that says it stays within a few decimal points

and probably swings to the Yes side.

[robinlynne]

64. You're on.

[LynzM]

5. Agreed, Taverner.

Until we can get people to stop legislating based on their religious beliefs... /sigh :banghead:

You have a problem with homosexuality in your own life, that's your own issue, but don't let your religious beliefs affect other people's rights!

[Bryn]

6. Agreed and also sick of no liquor law on Sundays here in Arkansas

RELIGION made that law!

[Taverner]

9. Aw fuck, I hate Blue Laws

And yes, you are right
RELIGION made that stupid law

[bananas]

8. Take your pick - racism or religious intolerance.

Whichever scapegoat you choose, DU is once again demonstrating that it is not a progressive website.

[Taverner]

11. Well, you have churches that supported 8, poured $$$ into it, and mobilized for it

What do you call that? Just a few brazillion bad apples?

Oh, and on edit: I don't consider myself a progressive. That means some kind of mutually agreed definition of 'progress.' I am a Liberal. A big 'L' Liberal.

[Lance_Boyle]

14. a few brazillion easily-duped morans, led by an inner circle of bad apples.

Gimme summa that old-time religion! Asswads.

[bananas]

24. And all those blacks, too.

Racism and religious intolerance are neither liberal nor progressive,
and they are especially not big "L" Liberal either.

[Taverner]

26. If you want to go after the Blacks, as you seem to, go after their churches

Find the Alan Keyes of the world and tear them down

I am not tolerant of Intolerance. You are for some reason. Congratulations!

[bananas]

43. No, I don't want to "go after" either the blacks or religion.

[LittleClarkie]

124. Can a person be a liberal AND a bigot? I wouldn't have thought so.

Some churches were active in this vote, it is true. Which denominations? Mormons I've heard. Probably some fundamentalists as well.

"Religion" is made up of more than SOME churches.

[ColbertWatcher]

141. "Some churches were active in this vote" and the others stayed silent. n/t

[LittleClarkie]

143. Bullshit

Almaden Hills United Methodist Church, San Jose
Alum Rock United Methodist Church, San Jose
Campbell United Church of Christ Council
Campbell United Methodist Church
Celebration Of Faith Church, San Jose
Center for Spiritual Living, San Jose
College Heights United Church of Christ, San Mateo
First Christian Church, San Jose
First Congregational Church of Palo Alto, Peace & Justice Task Force
First Congregational Church of San Jose,
United Church of Christ
First Presbyterian Church of Palo Alto
First United Methodist Church of Palo Alto
First Unitarian Church of San Jose
Grace Baptist Church, San Jose
Holy Redeemer Lutheran Church of San Jose
Metropolitan Community Church of San Jose
Morgan Hill United Methodist Church
New Community of Faith, San Jose (U.C.C. & American Baptist)
St. Jude's Episcopal Church, Social Justice/Outreach Committee,Cupertino
St. Mark’s Episcopal Church, Santa Clara
St. Paul’s United Methodist Church, San Jose
St. Thomas Episcopal Church, Sunnyvale
Stone Church of Willow Glen (Presbyterian), San Jose
Trinity Episcopal Cathedral, San Jose
Unitarian Universalist Church of Palo Alto Board

[QC]

145. There are many liberal bigots.

Quite a few of them hang out at DU.

[LittleClarkie]

147. And are rather proud of their bigotry, oddly enough.

Strange.

[QC]

152. Yes, they think their bigotry actually makes them superior to others,

much like the way Freepers think that their own prejudices make them smarter than everyone else.

[Connonym]

30. It's not religious intolerance to call churches on their bullshit

The sooner we're fully a secular society the better. Your right to religion ends when it interferes with the rights of others.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

I think it's time for the Supreme Court to put an end to this bullshit.

[Taverner]

32. RIGHT ON!!

You put this succinctly into words I wish I could've

[hfojvt]

45. it is, however, when you claim that religion is 100% bullsh*t

so you prefer a "benevolent dictatorship" of SCOTUS to an actual democracy? Try putting that "secular society" proposition to an actual vote.

[Zhade]

84. Like it or not, the Constitution calls for a secular government.

The people don't get to vote on that, because to overthrow it is to violate both the separation of church and state and the first amendment.

Will. Never. Happen. Get over it.

[cherokeeprogressive]

111. Actually

The word RELIGION appears exactly TWICE in the Constitution. Once in the title of the First Amendment, and once in the text of the First Amendment.

The word SECULAR appears not at all.

While I wholeheartedly support the separation of church and state (unless it means using churches as polling places occasionally as a matter of necessity) I wonder where you get your information on what the Constitution "calls for".

[nichomachus]

46. Residents of Utah donated $2.5 million to support Prop Hate. Why?

They did not do that because they have a strong affinity for California politics. They did that because they were whipped into a frenzy by their religious leaders.

http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=p38SnNWWYztQVMKEw8WnfcA

[Zhade]

83. "Your right to religion ends when it interferes with the rights of others."

INDEED.

Truth.

[Taverner]

107. Yes - that SHOULD be a litmus test for any law enacted

[FiveGoodMen]

48. Do we have to blame everyone and everything equally in order to be progressive?

[Arctic Dave]

10. You would be more accurate by saying religious extremist

factions. Not everyone who has religious faith is against gay marriage.

Note: I am a happy non religious individual.

[Taverner]

13. Yes, but when's the last time an Atheist flew a plane into a building?

Well, on purpose.

[Mesteryo]

23. politics drives just as much violence as religion..

Yet you don't seem to reject involvement in politics.

[Taverner]

25. That's because its real. I can show you a "new deal project"

You can't show me the resurrection.

[Mesteryo]

29. so killing people over religion is worse than over politics?

Don't tell that to Holocaust victims.

[Taverner]

31. No killing anyone is ethically wrong

I don't see how killing people wound its way into this conversation

I never asserted killing anyone

Just tearing them down by the two most effective tools we, the rational, have in our arsenal

Reason and Education

Like I said earlier, one hundred years from now most churches will be museums. People will learn they've been had.

[Mesteryo]

41. reason is based on the limits of human beings...

The human brain isn't an infallible so relying on reason alone to understand the world falls short.

[Taverner]

42. But through our reason, we can 'offload' analysis to a more perfect observer

Say, a computer running Oracle.

The whole "man isn't perfect" is BS anyway - we are perfect. Perfect animals. We behave perfectly for a simian to behave. Just like dogs are perfect, perfect dogs that is.

[FiveGoodMen]

51. "relying on reason alone to understand the world falls short"

But relying on the unverifiable words of some wandering shepherds makes up the difference?(!?)

[Taverner]

55. I know, I always get that from the theists

Humans bad, God good. But what if God doesn't exist? Then humans are the best one to bet on...

[FiveGoodMen]

53. "relying on reason alone to understand the world falls short"

But relying on the unverifiable words of some wandering shepherds makes up the difference?(!?)

[Bluenorthwest]

74. You mean the holocaust where a 'christian' country

killed all the Jews for having a different religion? That was all about religion. The Jews were killed for being of a different faith, not for being so dang good looking.

[Zhade]

85. No, but you should also remember that the Holocaust was seen as a religious duty by hitler.

NT!

[Taverner]

93. Exactly

"Men never commit evil so fully and joyfully as when they do it for religious convictions"

[spoony]

190. Ah, the Hitler card.

A favourite false canard of the antitheist. Why don't you post the quotes where he privately distances himself from, and slanders much like the people here, religion?

[muriel_volestrangler]

197. The Hitler card was played in post #29. You have misplaced your reply (nt)

[jmowreader]

108. Holocaust victims were killed over religion

Does Juden Raus ring a bell?

[LittleClarkie]

155. Your opinion of religion is irrelevant. In fact, one might conclude that your hostilitiy towards it

colors your opinion.

We're not debating whether or not you think religion is stupid. We're talking about how much religion as to do with support of this proposition.

And I say again that religion is merely a tool. Blame the people who use the tool, not the tool itself.

[muriel_volestrangler]

199. Religion had a lot to do with it, according to the leaders of the pro-Proposition campaign

Calif. win emboldens coalition of religious groups

By LISA LEFF – 12 hours ago

LOS ANGELES (AP) — Energized by a comeback win, conservative activists want to apply the same formula they used to outlaw same-sex marriage in California to prevent other states from recognizing gay unions and President-elect Barack Obama from expanding the rights of gays and lesbians.

Leaders of the successful Proposition 8 campaign say an unusual coalition of evangelical Christians, Mormons and Roman Catholics built a majority at the polls Tuesday by harnessing the organizational muscle of churches to a mainstream message about what school children might be taught about gay relationships if the ban failed.

Same-sex marriage bans also won in Arizona and Florida. But in putting together the California victory, the coalition overcame opposition from the state's political establishment and assumptions about how voters in the famously tolerant state would respond to taking away the rights the state's highest court granted this spring.

"Everyone told me it could not be done, people do not care about this enough, you will be overwhelmed and you will lose," said Maggie Gallagher, executive director of the National Organization for Marriage, a New Jersey group that provided seed money early this year to qualify the measure for the ballot.

http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5hZmLBrL36NObNyMR0ghXN7vB5hYwD94ADAB80

[aint_no_life_nowhere]

34. It's hard to distinguish religion from politics now

I've never seen a modern developed country where religion has been so politicized as in the United States.

[Tallison]

135. DING, DING, DING!

We have a winner.

[rhett o rick]

58. That's because your premise is wrong. Religion drives most violence not politics. nm

[spoony]

192. Give me the stats to back that up. Immediately.

"Most violence." How stupid. So domestic disputes and bar brawls are about religion? Land grabs and gang fights too?

[rhett o rick]

213. I don't respond when called stupid. nm

[spoony]

214. Then I'll call you a liar for deliberately telling such a hideous fib.

And a liar for acting like the reason you won't produce evidence is because yur feewings is hurted. You couldn't have backed up your bullshit if I'd begged for it with sugar on top.

[rhett o rick]

223. Now you can call me a liar for responding when I said I wouldn't.

Apparently that makes you feel better about yourself.

The poster stated, "politics drives just as much violence as religion" without any evidence. I don't agree.

If you think you hurt my feelings, you are giving yourself WAY too much credit.

But from your response I could tell that you didn't want to engage in an intelligent discourse.

I am curious, do you consider yourself liberal or progressive?

[Arctic Dave]

70. You are assuming that every atheist is wholesome.

I am willing to bet that there are Atheist that have homicidal thoughts just like any other group, however they would be acting on there own and not following a demented extreme doctrine.

[muriel_volestrangler]

196. If 'religious extremists' include the Catholic church

The supporters of Proposition 8 say themselves it was all about the churches:

Leaders of the successful Proposition 8 campaign say an unusual coalition of evangelical Christians, Mormons and Roman Catholics built a majority at the polls Tuesday by harnessing the organizational muscle of churches to a mainstream message about what school children might be taught about gay relationships if the ban failed.
...
The plan is to mobilize the same religious factions that joined forces in California to deter lawmakers from "taking on this divisive social issue while we are in the middle of a huge financial crisis," Gallagher said.

Campaign operatives attribute their success to the churches, which served as voter registration centers, phone banks and volunteer recruitment hubs.

Religious institutions also gave Proposition 8's sponsors an avenue to a range of ethnic voters, including many Democrats, said Mat Staver, who heads the Florida-based Christian legal group Liberty Counsel.

http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5hZmLBrL36NObNyMR0ghXN7vB5hYwD94ADAB80

Catholic Bishops Support Proposition 8

[Arctic Dave]

222. Every religion has extremist. Catholics are no different.

[muriel_volestrangler]

239. You mean - the extremist Catholics are their bishops?

Yeah, but it's weird how they have a steady stream of new ones to take over the reins of power. Makes you wonder why so many members still stick with them.

[UnrepentantUnitarian]

15. Not all religions, of course!

My faith has been, and will remain, at the forefront of marriage equal rights. Our churches have performed more marriage ceremonies for gay couples than any other faith, with possible exception of the Metropolitan Community Churches. Stereotyping is just as inappropriate when applied to religions as it is to race, gender, ethnicity, etc.

[Taverner]

18. Ahhh but I don't really consider your "church" a "religion"

You are a member of a community that studies religion.

I doubt I could find anyone in a Unitarian church who thinks the Bible actually has any relevance other than a few good passages here and there.

[UnrepentantUnitarian]

35. You, of course, have a right to "consider" any way you like...

But Unitarian Universalism is a centuries-old faith in which many people have sacrificed...some even given their lives for their ultimate beliefs and their right to believe differently. Perhaps you shouldn't dismiss others faiths so easily.

[Taverner]

40. Faith is belief without evidence

The Unitarian history (and I've studied it and like it very much) is very reason based, very evidence based.

That's better than faith - and that's where the whole term "self evident" in the Declaration came from (Jefferson was a Unitarian)

[LittleClarkie]

149. How convenient for you. They are what they consider themselves. It is not your judgement, but theirs

By the way, are these churches:

Almaden Hills United Methodist Church, San Jose
Alum Rock United Methodist Church, San Jose
Campbell United Church of Christ Council
Campbell United Methodist Church
Celebration Of Faith Church, San Jose
Center for Spiritual Living, San Jose
College Heights United Church of Christ, San Mateo
First Christian Church, San Jose
First Congregational Church of Palo Alto, Peace & Justice Task Force
First Congregational Church of San Jose,
United Church of Christ
First Presbyterian Church of Palo Alto
First United Methodist Church of Palo Alto
First Unitarian Church of San Jose
Grace Baptist Church, San Jose
Holy Redeemer Lutheran Church of San Jose
Metropolitan Community Church of San Jose
Morgan Hill United Methodist Church
New Community of Faith, San Jose (U.C.C. & American Baptist)
St. Jude's Episcopal Church, Social Justice/Outreach Committee,Cupertino
St. Mark’s Episcopal Church, Santa Clara
St. Paul’s United Methodist Church, San Jose
St. Thomas Episcopal Church, Sunnyvale
Stone Church of Willow Glen (Presbyterian), San Jose
Trinity Episcopal Cathedral, San Jose
Unitarian Universalist Church of Palo Alto Board

[chowder66]

17. Education, Education, Education.....

This is where we need to focus our attention. We can't change idealogy in the churches but we can fight hard to reach nimble minds in the classroom. No need to shoot down religion as a whole but we can teach critical thinking and mandate it in our school systems.


Solutions

[TahitiNut]

19. Anyone that's surprised is ignorant of millennia of human history.

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/TahitiNut/564

It's the single most continuously pervasive intrusion upon the State by organized religion in human history.

The abysmal ignorance of that history is quite evident, even on DU.

[frogmarch]

20. Yep! K&R!

[Mesteryo]

21. so you fight hate by hating?

If hating gay people is wrong then why isn't hating religious people?

You are being just as bigoted as homophobes.

Also there are many religious gay people and your tactic of divisive hate will only further isolate gay people.

Religious people need to be shown that being gay and being religious aren't exclusive.

[Taverner]

22. No I fight intolerance by shining light on the intolerant

Shine a big old light at the church - show them the cracks that make up that edifice to intolerance.

I love how marchers have been storming the Mormon Compounds. It makes me smile - because they know the real enemy.

And yes, I do see them as the enemy.

AND since when do I have to be TOLERANT of INTOLERANCE?????

[Mesteryo]

27. do you see all people involved in religion..

As the enemy?

You advocate govt. shutting churches down?

[Taverner]

28. Nope - churches will shut down on thier own after time

Three words: "Christian Science Church" No one goes there anymore, because they are deluded.

Soon everyone else will realize how delusional waiting all of your life for a rapture is.

But in the meantime, I think removing their tax exempt status is a good start.

[Mesteryo]

36. you sure love stereotyping..

Not everyone in religion believes in the rapture. Stereotyping is typical of irrational hate.

[Taverner]

38. No the rapture is just an example of delusion

I couldn't list them all, that would take all day

But there are the delusions of:

The Virgin Birth
The Resurrection
The Transubstantiation at Communion
Glossolalia
Mohammad riding to Heaven on a Winged Horse
God parting the Red Sea
Jesus 'in one's heart'
A personal relationship with Jesus
The Holy Ghost

[hfojvt]

47. isn't the glare gonna hurt your eyes?

It is just so human for a person to think that his own intolerance is justified and therefore tolerable.

"Do it in the name of heaven, justify it in the end."

Of course, you don't believe in heaven, just some sort of science-logic-nirvana here on earth once we kill all the religionists.

[Taverner]

49. I don't want to kill anyone

I live by a simple ethic: reduce suffering

Killing goes smack dab against that

Apologizing for the unethical does as well, btw...

[hfojvt]

68. depends on how you define suffering

and logically, killing can easily reduce suffering. Kill Hitler in 1932 and what happens to the net level of suffering in 1933-45?

[Taverner]

76. But that is illogical

We can't kill Hitler in 1932 so that makes that moot

Can we predict Hitler? Fuck no

And it is UNETHICAL to assume you know a 'Hitler' before they commit a crime.

Suffering should be interpreted by a measure of reason. The central nervous system is a good gauge

Hence, torture - wrong

Death Penalty - wrong - especially with the possibility of a false conviction

[Evoman]

59. Why do we always get accused of wanting to "kill all religious people"?

Thats how religion deals with differences, not secular humanists.

We want people to grow out of religion. I've never heard anyone on DU advocate killing or imprisoning religious people.

[hfojvt]

65. it's the logical conclusion

religion is evil. How are you gonna get rid of religion then? Education? Heck, if that worked, then everybody would know how to do algebra. Indoctrination of children then. Well, aren't some parents gonna object, and strenuously?

Considering how evil religion supposedly is, how is killing not the logical solution?

As for killing being how religion deals with differences, that is just silly. There are millions of religious people who abjure violence and who are quite comfortable with differences. Just as there seem to be many secular people who find differences to be intolerable. Who cannot seem to tolerate somebody who practices or believes a religion, for example.

[Taverner]

72. You don't get it do you

As Atheists and Scientists, we realize the Earth is billions of years old. Billions of years ago, there weren't even protozoa, yet the universe existed.

Even a millions years ago, we had megafauna and megaflora around - they didn't believe in God. They were all fight or flight.

10K years ago, more or less (margin of error 50% on that stat), man shows up and behaves as his ancestors before him. 6K years ago, we get this idea of 'God.' It helps for a while, but after understanding science it becomes bothersome. Scientists learn to avoid religion.

Atheists abound, but the deal is sealed when Origin of Species comes on the scene. All religious ideas of God go out the window. We (humans) are a successful anomaly, nothing more.

After that its just a matter of the religious factions shutting down.

We have no plan to kill anyone.

Judaism, Islam and Christianity, just like Odinism, Manicheanism, the worship of Baal and many other religions throughout history will fade.

The only question is will we replace it with some new religion, or will we finally admit what we wanted out of religion wasn't the mumbo-jumbo, but the community.

Seek community. Not mumbo-jumbo.

[hfojvt]

130. so you are just hoping they will all die off and that your hatred will speed things up

It's still the scientific-logical-nirvana that you use to justify your hate and that was my point.

[Taverner]

131. Take my advice and seek community

Trust me, that will be the only thing that pays off in life....

[Evoman]

73. No it isn't.

In fact, the world IS getting less religious through education, especially in first world countries. There are alternatives to religion. Even religious people are accepting things that they wouldn't have in the past.

The logic conclusion is not the murder of religious people. How do we "fight" republicans? By killing them? Do we advocate their extermination? No, we don't. We fight with ideas. We disagree loudly. We point out when their ideas are bankrupt, and if we cannot convince them to change their minds, we hope that our arguments convince the person sitting beside them who may have a more open mind.

But we have to be able to engage and oppose the ideas without being automatically called zealots or being painted as haters, who want to kill the people we disagree with. Religion is intellectually bankrupt...that is my point of view. Religion is not a force for good. That is my point of view. Religion is not necessary, that is my point of view.

It does not mean I want to kill you or religious people. That is NOT my point of view.

[Taverner]

77. The Marketplace of Ideas

The ultimate "salvation" if you will

[hfojvt]

119. you wouldn't want to be painted as a hater

that's why you support the OP?

Did you miss where the OP said this:

"Who should we be directing our hate? RELIGION"

I just pointed out that the hatred is justified in the name of some logical-scientific-nirvana, rather than in the name of heaven as the words go to "One Tin Soldier".

I think hatred leads to killing more than religion does.

Don't try to pretend that I imagined the hate. It's right there in the OP.

[Zhade]

90. That's faithist thinking, not rationalist.

NT!

[Taverner]

71. I don't understand it either

Atheists and the Scientific community have been the most "Christlike." We never had pogroms killing off a specific group.

We never buried the Priests lopped their heads

We never invaded a country on religious grounds

We never set up a litmus test in which groups had to pay allegiance to our beliefs, or face punishment of death

We never tortured a Theist, forcing them to recant for discoveries they made in a religious setting

You get the point...

[hfojvt]

123. yeah it's not like science and technology

had anything to do with the Gatling gun, the b-1 bomber, the atomic bomb or the chemicals of Bhopal, India.

the scientific community is all too often a mere hired gun for the military industrial complex.

That, of course, would not have anything to do with a lack of moral principles. I am sure it is just a coincidence.

[FiveGoodMen]

57. No. You fight injustice by telling the truth.

"You are being just as bigoted as homophobes"


No. It's the one who starts the trouble that deserves the blame.

[Starry Messenger]

80. Religion is a choice. Gay isn't.

Gays are a minority that are being attacked by some well-funded non-persecuted religions. Some religions are funding hate. I hate them for that.

[Zhade]

86. Hating religious intolerance is not hating believers for *being* believers.

Attacking religion is not attacking the believers themselves at all.

Unlike GLBT folk, religion is NOT an inborn trait that people can't change. (And don't make the mistake of saying it is, or I'd be forced to embarrass you by pointing out the reality of people converting to other religions.)

[ColbertWatcher]

33. THANK YOU! It's high time we seperate church from state permanently! n/t

[doyourealize1]

174. The OP is not calling for a separation of church and state. He/She is debasing religion.

n/t

[earth mom]

228. Why not debase religion? It's done nothing but kill, maim, ostracize & destroy people for centuries.

Organized religion is nothing but a bunch of hogwash set up to control the masses.

[petgoat]

37. Of course it couldn't have anything to do with squeamishness about sex, right?

It has to do with religion and racism and equality and bigotry and
all that?

It's all just high-minded principles, and people have no right to
be uncomfortable with public policy declaring poopy sex equivalent
to procreative sex?

I don't think the Prop 8 people oppose civil unions. They just
don't want to call it marriage. And I'm not sure it's right
to call their squeamishness bigotry.

[muriel_volestrangler]

204. You defeat yourself in argument in your post

If it was 'squeamishness', then if you were right that the Prop 8 people don't oppose civil unions, then it wouldn't be about sex, would it? People get laid just as much with civil unions as with gay marriage. You can have 'poopy sex' without civil unions, for that matter.

I suspect the Prop 8 people do oppose civil unions (as an example, the Catholic church in Britain opposed civil partnerships). I think they also oppose homosexual sex of any kind, and would rather have back the anti-sodomy laws that Lawrence vs. Texas struck down, and they'd like a law preventing gay couples from living together, married, united or whatever. But they'll resist in any way they can, and amending the California constitution to prevent gay marriage is a start for them.

(unless there's some sarcasm in one section of your post that I missed)

[mondo joe]

44. I'm afraid it's still the people. People reject religious messages when they WANT to.

There are catholics who have abortions, and who vote pro-choice.

Some get divorced. Many break other rules within their faith.

There are many religious standards, which vary, and for every believer there is a religious tenet they simply ignore or differ with. When they want to.

Religion is an excuse people use for why they do certain things - but the choice is always theirs.

[mitchtv]

52. The scumbags that voted yes

are singularly responsible

[Evoman]

54. It's sort of the turd in the punch bowl. We are so used to giving religion a pass

that when bullshit that is OBVIOUSLY the fault of religion happens, we look for other reasons. Black people. Latinos. Fuck, we will be blaming homeless people next.

How is this not about religion. Even if you accept that not "all religion is the same", when it comes down to it, it's bad enough that SOME RELIGION is at fault.

And why do people go to such pains to make it look like a minority. Face it folks...if it passes, that means that a majority of people ARE dangerously religous.....dangerous in that they are able to take the freakin rights away from a section of society.

If this shit can pass in a state where we can safetely say that the majority of people are liberal, it means that even liberally religious people are voting against gay marriage.

[AntiFascist]

60. I wish these posts would STOP !

If you are planning to take on all churches, all religious people,and everyone who disapproves of gay marriage, then this is a sure way to LOSE!

You need to work on dividing up their side, not our side. First of all there are gay churches and even predominantly straight churches which approve of gay unions.

People like President-elect Obama may not approve of gay marriage in his own religious beliefs, but he is also opposed to measures like Prop. 8 which would take away our rights. We can't afford to alienate people like this.

[Flarney]

61. Religion is the king of bullshit... (some nice Carlin stuff below...)

When it comes to bullshit, big-time, major league bullshit, you have to stand in awe of the all-time champion of false promises and exaggerated claims, religion. No contest. No contest. Religion. Religion easily has the greatest bullshit story ever told. Think about it. Religion has actually convinced people that there's an invisible man living in the sky who watches everything you do, every minute of every day. And the invisible man has a special list of ten things he does not want you to do. And if you do any of these ten things, he has a special place, full of fire and smoke and burning and torture and anguish, where he will send you to live and suffer and burn and choke and scream and cry forever and ever 'til the end of time!

But He loves you. He loves you, and He needs money! He always needs money! He's all-powerful, all-perfect, all-knowing, and all-wise, somehow just can't handle money! Religion takes in billions of dollars, they pay no taxes, and they always need a little more. Now, you talk about a good bullshit story. Holy Shit!

I miss George.

[kestrel91316]

62. THANK YOU. Race has nothing to do with it. Religious dogma

and delusional BS are the problems.

[goodgd_yall]

66. I agree with the content but not the tone

Reality is that we have to find a way to reach religious voters. We just can't say f*ck 'em. And believe me, they can be reasoned with.

Also, I'd like to point out that 10% of the Yes vote came from people with no religious affiliation. With just half of those votes, Prop 8 would have been defeated. We are not doing a good job of explaining our position. It has be more than demanding equal rights. We need to discuss why marriage and not just civil unions. And we need to discuss civil marriage version the relgious view of religion.

[Darth_Kitten]

67. I blame stupid people. Pure and simple.....

why is religion being bashed so much?

[1Hippiechick]

226. Maybe ignorant rather than stupid. "Traditional belief held as sacred" b/c "we've always believed

that way" - why do you think that some Christians handle snakes as part of a worship service? How much more backwoods could it get?

[Jed Dilligan]

69. I gotta say, no one has really shot you down in a credible way.

I don't have a problem with religion until it's inflicted on others; the problem is, it's hard to find a religion that is not trying to inflict itself on every last human being on the planet.

[Taverner]

78. Well that should be the ultimate razor

If it inflicts any damage on others (like Prop 8) it must be condemned, as in this case

If it doesn't (meditating in a monastery) or even benefits (say brewing Orval in Belgium) then it must be lauded.

But religion as of late has been brewing less Orval and more hate...

[Name removed]

75. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

81. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

138. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

146. Deleted message

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[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

79. I Can't Even Begin To Condone The Intolerance Towards Religion Shown Here.

It is completely unacceptable the tone you used.

Religion is no more at fault than AA's, whites, etc, and you are using the same unfair generalizations as otherwise.

TONS of people who voted no for the proposition are religious so using a broad brush there is just as irresponsible. Only those who take religion too far are guilty. But I can guarantee you that there are a ton of people who voted yes for reasons COMPLETELY unrelated to religion, but related to their own homophobia.

We know there is a fundy religious tangent to all of this. There is also a cultural and societal tangent to it. There are many different roots that need to be targeted in order to make progress on the issue.

But your tone and hatred towards religion is amazingly bigoted in its own right, and wreaks of intolerance and ignorance. You are not doing a thing to help with this.

[Taverner]

87. So what caused that Sharia Court to stone that 13 year old to death?

Was it exposure to the elements?

Was it the mountain air?

And the passage of prop 8 - was that because of Science? Some strange study that everyone knows about that proves this will be the downfall of society?

Was it because of bowlers?

No - it was RELIGION that made these folks vote the way they did. Religion did not just sanction their votes, it openly lobbied, canvassed and drove their votes.

Its not who they are, but what they did that matters.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

91. You Are Being Amazingly Closed Minded And Ignorant Here.

Your snark is a sign of that.

If you think that the only people that voted yes did so for strictly religious reasons, then you really need to open your mind a bit to reality.

There are many factors that were behind those who voted yes, religion being one of them. No matter which factor was present, it was a core of intolerance, fear and ignorance that was behind it. You are displaying much of the same qualities with your rant here.

Intolerance and bigotry in any form is unacceptable. You are no better than they.

[Taverner]

92. OK - I'll bite. If not religion, why did people vote for Prop 8?

...

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

102. Homophobia. Do You Think Homophobia Is Only Attached To The Religious? Open Your Mind.

Plenty of people have an ignorant mentality of repulsion as it relates to the gay community, and it is that repulsion that causes them to answer a question of "should gays be allowed to marry?" with a reaction of "no fuckin way!". They aren't repulsed due to religion, but simply because the person is different than they are. They are repulsed because they can't think outside of themselves and because they're disgusted with the thought of same sex relationships (as in they themselves are unattracted to the same sex), then they perceive those that partake in them as repulsive. That is the root for many of them.

To make an insinuation that in order to be against the concept of gay marriage and homophobia that you must have your roots firmly in religion, is huge sign of ignorant and closed minded mentality as it relates to the issue.

Your attack on religion with a broad brush is shameful and ignorant. You are no better than they are. Sorry pal.

[Taverner]

109. OK - ask someone who is non-religious based what their Authority is...

Ask them "Why is HOMOSEXUALITY bad?"

I guarantee the only answer that will come your way is from a religion.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

114. You Can't Possibly Be That Narrow And Closed Minded, Can You?

Do you really believe that all homophobia has its roots in religion? Holy cow, you're worse off than I thought.

Bigotry is rooted in many things. Is bigotry towards minorities rooted in religion? Or is it rooted in simply someone being 'different'. Do you not think that many hold the same ignorant mentality towards those who are 'different' not racially, but sexually?

Having such a closed mind will limit you much in life.

[Taverner]

115. Then tell me - where did it come from?

That's all I am asking

Show me proof that it did not come from religion

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

127. You Can't Prove A Negative.

And since after my explanation to you, you've refused to even consider what I was talking about and continue to take this insane position that homophobia is only limited to religion, then I find you to be way too closed minded and ignorant on this topic to even attempt to continue discussion with you any further.

May god, life or otherwise someday grant you the wisdom and awareness necessary to realize how closed minded and intolerant you are.

God bless you anyway and goodnight.

[Zhade]

99. You didn't answer his question.

NT!

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

103. The Answer Is Extremism.

And the question was completely irrelevant as it relates to the discussion. That's why I ignored it the first time around. The questions were rooted in ignorant theory.

[Evoman]

100. You Are Being A Bigot Here, Pal.

How dare you come in here and present your illogical facts. You're being an irrational zealot. Taverner is completely right, and has opinons based on logical FACTS, unlike you who just spouts your crazy, unbiased opinions based on zealotry and ignorance.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

105. Everything I've Stated Is Spot On And Factual.

An intelligent open mind would recognize that in a heartbeat.

[Taverner]

110. No True Scotsman Fallacy here....

Just sayin'

[spoony]

175. No, that'd be upthread when you claimed Unitarians

weren't a religion so that you could continue to like them and condemn religion. You'd think someone so acquainted with the use of the fallacy would be able to identify it properly.

[Evoman]

116. You Are Not Being Factual And Instead Are Biased And Extremist.

Sorry, buddy, I am always completely rational and reasonable. If you weren't so biased about the subject, you would realize that your opinions are that of an extremist. In fact, people who question Taverners opinions make me sick with their bigoted viewpoints.

Sorry pal, this is a huge FAIL on your part. It's time to separate yourself from your ignorant, close-minded, hateful opinions.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

129. If All You Can Do Is Respond With Sheer Stupidity, Than Expect No Future Replies.

[Taverner]

132. This person didn't answer did they?

[Evoman]

156. That's Right. When Confronted By A Rational Viewpoint, The Bigot Always Runs.

But that's expected for an extremist that can only engage in ad hominems, and is scared of completely objective, rational talk. So you go ahead, and run pal. I'm done talking with you.

[spoony]

193. No they don't, look around you. Lots of bigots flailing on about

religion, making the most absurd claims about it causing all the violence the world has ever known, blah blah. There's nothing objective or rational about it, just fist-clenching from a bunch of people with daddy issues.

[Evoman]

218. lol

daddy issues.... :rofl:

It would be absolutely false to claim that all violence is caused by religion, absolutely. But it would be equally false to say it doesn't cause any violence at all, which I hear over and over from people on here. They will either rationalize the violence or blame it on something else.

And even if religion was never responsible for violence, it doesn't make it exempt from criticism, especially when its a major factor in why a segment of the population can not marry the person they love.

[Zhade]

97. Here's a clue for you, ace: when it comes to criticizing, NO IDEA IS OFF-LIMITS.

It is literally impossible to be bigoted toward religion. It is not a person. It is an idea, one that is perfectly acceptable as a topic to discuss and criticize.

If you'd said "religious believers", you'd have a point. It'd be wrong, since no one in this thread has attacked believers for being believers, but it would still make more sense than pretending ideas are the same as the people who hold them and thus off-limits.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

112. Intolerance Is Unacceptable.

There is obvious intolerance and broad brush attack shown on the part of the OP. Such things are unacceptable.

Furthermore, your irrational claim about it being impossible to be bigoted towards religion is completely wrong. You should educate yourself on the definition. I will post it for you below.

Furthermore, there are comments in this thread calling those who believe in religion to be idiots. So your claim that no one has attacked believers is also completely wrong.

There is a wealth of ignorance and intolerance in this thread. It is that sort of closed minded, hateful and ignorant mentality that gives atheists a bad name. Thankfully, most atheists are not intolerant ignorant bigots. The closed mindedness shown here by some is nothing short of astounding.

big⋅ot⋅ed
   /ˈbɪgətɪd/ Show Spelled Pronunciation Show IPA Pronunciation
–adjective
utterly intolerant of any creed, belief, or opinion that differs from one's own.

[Taverner]

118. So when did we become tolerant of intolerance?

[spoony]

169. Religion is not "an idea"--it covers the varied beliefs of billions

of people, and so upon billions of people your hatred falls. You can scream all day and night that you're not a bigot, it all stands as its own evidence.

[1Hippiechick]

234. Maybe a better term would have been "religionist" versus "spiritualist"

The RW Christian nuts are Religionists, imo, and my guess is that most of them show up to warm a pew on Sunday and equate that with being a Christian. Their interpretation of the Bible makes them more like Pharisees--all rules and regulations including the Ten Commandments which they warp into what they want it to be, e.g., "Thou shalt not kill" protects a fetus but supports killing humans in capital punishment or at war,imo. They miss the core teaching of the Bible, which is love: Matthew 22:37-40

37 Jesus replied, “‘You must love the Lord your God with all your heart, all your soul, and all your mind.’ 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 A second is equally important: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’(b)40 The entire law and all the demands of the prophets are based on these two commandments.”

The central message is love and brotherhood, imo. If churches across the country would teach on these two commandments, maybe the complexion of the Christian community would be different.

Spiritualists can belong to organized religion but would never depend on 'organized religion' only for their spiritual relationship which is found one-on-one in reading and meditation, imo. My guess is that one wouldn't find many spiritualists sitting in church.

[Deja Q]

242. *DING* *DING* *DING* We have a winner! The irony is also astounding...

I'd recommend your response if I could.

The police often get painted with the same brush around here and it's just as ignorant too.

[Zhade]

82. Religion does have the unique trait of pushing unproven - or disproven - myth as fact...

...and being proud of not being able to prove it's not made-up bullshit.

[Taverner]

106. This is so true

They get a free pass - no need to prove God exists, or that he listens to prayers, or that there is any relevance between God and US...

[joshcryer]

88. So religion is more effective for black people?

The fact remains that the other races (asians, latinos, and whites) who are all exposed to the same religions split the vote. Fact.

[Taverner]

96. Exactly. It wasn't just Black people who voted for Prop 8

It was religious folks of all kinds.

The religion provides the 'why'

When you GOTV you get EVERYONE to vote and religion has an unhealthy grip on society in the USA

[joshcryer]

101. I don't buy that, I think the underlying *culture* is also to blame.

Probably more than religion since as I noted "religion" hasn't affected the other groups as dramatically.

[Taverner]

104. I don't buy culture at all - culture is a result of religion

Previously the determiner in all logical disputes.

[joshcryer]

221. There's something distinct in *that* culture that *clearly* seperates them from the rest.

To say it is religion in and of itself is a misnomer.

[LittleClarkie]

122. Why do you seek to fight bigotry with bigotry

No one group of people is all anything. There are perfectly reasonable people who go to church on a regular or semi-regular basis.

And do you have any stats to back up any of your claims? A breakdown of those who identify themselves as Christians and how they voted? Any breakdown on the type of religion and how THEY voted?

Or are you pretty much pulling all of this out of your ass?

[pinerow]

89. My Post on the subject

http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/talk/blogs/rpinero/index.php

[LBJDemocrat]

94. DOMA will be repealed eventually, though.

This is only a small setback.

[Taverner]

98. FRACK I HOPE SO

I'm glad that you, a Christian, does not see this as an attack as others do

[LBJDemocrat]

121. I don't like what you're saying

But it's natural for an atheist to think religion is idiotic, and there's nothing to be gained in arguing with you.

[Taverner]

125. Not arguing

Discussing

Don't be afraid

[bluedawg12]

95. OK, organised, religion from the Big Three who use scripture

for political purposes and change their interpretation as it suits their needs? is that less anti-religious?

Look at whose finger prints are all over prop-hate-8.

[LittleClarkie]

113. 75% of the people at my church are open-minded Democrats

Wanna put away that broad brush?

Or is there another entire group of people you'd like to blame next?

Damn those darkies and cross wavers!

[Taverner]

120. That's irrelevant

The point is it was a religious push that moved this ballot measure.

[LittleClarkie]

126. So?

A religious push by who? Which churches?

You're generalizing to all of religion the actions of some churches. I'm sorry but that's a form of bigotry. And that would not make you a liberal, I'm afraid. That would make you a bigot.

[Taverner]

128. Just tell me the source

That's all I ask

[LittleClarkie]

133. Clarify.

The source of the hate?

I don't think it's religion. It's what some have made of religion. It's people. Some people use religion as a tool for their hate.

Some do not.

http://svmomblog.typepad.com/la_moms_blog/2008/11/being-a-christi.html
(nice blog entry about how one professed Christian feels about Prop 8)

http://michael-in-norfolk.blogspot.com/2008/10/christians-against-proposition-8.html
(love the list of churches in this one who stand against Prop 8)

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lanow/2008/10/fight-against-p.html
(the comments section of this article is interesting)

http://streetprophets.com/storyonly/2008/10/29/161630/27
(a whole theological discussion here about how Prop 8 is wrong)

[renie408]

142. I think you are confusing spirituality and religion.

Spirituality isn't responsible for bigotry towards gays. Religion is. Religion is the human organization of spirituality. And whenever humans get to messing around with anything natural and pure, they generally fuck it up.

[LittleClarkie]

144. But that is still to broad a brush. Religion can be misused just like anything else

It is a tool. Blame the people behind these acts, not their tool.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

148. Well Said.

Unfortunately, the minds of some in this thread are so closed and ignorant that they will fail to comprehend your simple and factual point.

[renie408]

154. This tool is designed to manipulate and influence people. So, it is doing what it is supposed to do.

Religion: a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, esp. when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs.

That's what religion is: spirituality turned into a tool to organize and indoctrinate people. Period. Your church is an exception and you know it. It also indoctrinates people, but in a way that most of use here would find acceptable. But a large majority of churches take a very different view of homosexuality. The ONLY argument, again, against gay marriage is a religious based one. Therefore, it is reasonable to assume that the people who voted for prop 8 did so based on their religious beliefs. Not because they were black.

You can complain about the size of the brush all you want. I didn't MAKE the brush, I am just observing how it is being used.

[LittleClarkie]

157. My church is not an exception

The ELCA is like that as a whole.

As are the North American Baptists. Who knew the Baptists had a liberal denomination. Surprised the hell out of me.

Religion may teach. But what it teaches is still up to the individual's interpretation of what they're reading. Once again, it is a tool, and it all depends on how the tool is used. Some see one thing in the Bible, others another thing. What is taught varies from church to church and religion to religion.

These churches saw something that made them stand up against Proposition 8:

Almaden Hills United Methodist Church, San Jose
Alum Rock United Methodist Church, San Jose
Campbell United Church of Christ Council
Campbell United Methodist Church
Celebration Of Faith Church, San Jose
Center for Spiritual Living, San Jose
College Heights United Church of Christ, San Mateo
First Christian Church, San Jose
First Congregational Church of Palo Alto, Peace & Justice Task Force
First Congregational Church of San Jose,
United Church of Christ
First Presbyterian Church of Palo Alto
First United Methodist Church of Palo Alto
First Unitarian Church of San Jose
Grace Baptist Church, San Jose
Holy Redeemer Lutheran Church of San Jose
Metropolitan Community Church of San Jose
Morgan Hill United Methodist Church
New Community of Faith, San Jose (U.C.C. & American Baptist)
St. Jude's Episcopal Church, Social Justice/Outreach Committee,Cupertino
St. Mark’s Episcopal Church, Santa Clara
St. Paul’s United Methodist Church, San Jose
St. Thomas Episcopal Church, Sunnyvale
Stone Church of Willow Glen (Presbyterian), San Jose
Trinity Episcopal Cathedral, San Jose
Unitarian Universalist Church of Palo Alto Board

[renie408]

158. Answer this question: What other argument is there against gay marriage than religion?

And while you are at it, you can answer these, too:

How many churches are there in California?
What percentage of church going Californians does that list of thirty churches represent?
What percentage of church goers in the US are members of your denomination? DUDE! The definition of 'exception' is something that is not in the norm. Unless your particular church represents the overwhelming majority of churches in the US (which it REALLY doesn't) it's an EXCEPTION. Get that?

You can use a screwdriver as a hole punch. That doesn't mean it isn't a screwdriver any more because YOU choose to use the tool differently than most. I understand why you don't want religion to be responsible for the passage of prop 8, but it is. Religion is the organized people part of spirituality. The majority of churches and churchgoers believe that homosexuality is wrong. Because YOUR church doesn't teach that does not mean that MOST churches don't teach that. They just do. Sorry, that's just how it goes. Instead of trying to pretend that religion was not responsible for the passage of this hateful piece of legislation (when it was), why not start working to spread YOUR version of religion?

[LittleClarkie]

160. One argument I've heard against gay marriage is an economic one

Some conservatives I know object because they think it will create a burden on the health care system if gay spouses are included on their partner's policy. I'll think about whether there are any others I've heard.

[renie408]

179. I am sure that there is at least one person out there who objects based

on the fact that his alien captors told him that if gays got married, they would use their lasers to draw pornographic pictures of space alien women on the Great Plains. How many conservatives do you think contest gay marriage because it will drive up the price of health insurance vs. the ones that object based on RELIGION? And do you think that there is the possibility that the conservatives that say they object for 'economic' reasons, really object based on religion, but know that isn't a compelling reason by Constitutional standards? And if anybody ever gives you that ridiculous, half assed reasoning, would you please explain to them that the fastest growing percentage of HIV diagnoses is amongst women? Based on that, we should also ban heterosexual marriage.

[LittleClarkie]

229. You know what? Nevermind. Apparently you don't know the difference between a fiscal Republican and

a social Republican. If you want to put a fiscal Republican on the same par as an alien abductee then knock yourself out.

And if you can't even entertain the idea that some people use religion to justify their bigotry as opposed to bigotry coming from religion itself, then I'm done trying to discuss this thing with you. I'm getting sick of the snark.

I merely object to the use of the word "religion" in such general terms by people using Proposition 8 to justify THEIR bigotry. If religion as a whole is the problem the why do some religions not give a shit about this issue?

Some religions are the problem. Not all. That is all I have to say.

[renie408]

231. Yes, I do know the difference between a fiscal conservative

and a social conservative. I am thinking 'conservative' vs 'Republican' because I think of these as being more conservative issues than party based issues. These days, few Republicans are truly fiscally conservative. They just want to LOOK like they are.

I am sorry for the snark. I am having this same basic conversation in about three or four different threads with about five different people. I have some snark left over from one of the other conversations where the other guy keeps basically calling me an idiot. It wears on you after awhile.

I find the insurance argument specious and indefensible. It just doesn't wash for me. It's like the people who kept coming up with all kinds of 'reasons' they didn't want to vote for Obama. Most of us could readily see that they were racist, but having a hard time admitting it to themselves. They didn't want to vote for the black guy, so they kept coming up with excuses why they shouldn't. To me, the insurance argument is the same. It's cover for their bigotry.

I think bigotry is learned. And in the case of bigotry against homosexuals, one of the biggest teachers out there is organized religion. Other than Buddhism (which I really consider more of a philosophy than a religion), I cannot think of a religion that doesn't have a problem with homosexuality. What about hindis? Are they OK with it? There are small denominations within different religions which don't focus on homosexuality.

It sounds like you are a spiritual person, I will ask you what I asked somebody else...Is homosexual activity a sin?

[LittleClarkie]

237. I don't think so.

I think that some bigotry crept into the New Testament based on what was happening at that time in history. I prefer a historical view of the Bible, and trying to figure out what was meant based on the context of the time. I think what was being referred to in the Bible was a reaction against general debauchery -- certain religions that made sex part of their rituals (Dionysian?), Greek society at the time, that sort of thing. I do not think Paul was thinking about two people who loved each other and wanted to spend their lives together.

Considering it a sin to be gay would be like considering it to be a sin that I have hazel eyes.

That's my best answer. I don't claim to have a definitive one.

You made me go and look a few things up though, which was useful. Thank you for that, and for the apology. I'd much rather have a reasonable discussion.

I'll share with you one of the links I found as I went looking for references for my answer. I think you will find your question answered by other Christian liberals as well.

http://www.religioustolerance.org/hom_bibl.htm

I thought this site looked interesting because seem to be comparing and contrasting Conservative vs Liberal Christian viewpoints.

Here's a discussion on that site re: Paul's strong condemnation in Romans 1:26-27
http://www.religioustolerance.org/hom_bibc.htm

and the interpretation of that passage by religious liberals
http://www.religioustolerance.org/hom_bibc5.htm

[kwassa]

164. Tradition is the alternative argument

Of course, tradition also includes religion, as it harks back to an earlier era. Part of tradition is simply the continuation of previous cultural norms, religious or not. The traditional concept of marriage is, mostly, one man and one woman, traditionally, not to say that it is valid.

http://pewforum.org/docs/index.php?DocID=37

It isn't all religious people who are opposed to gay marriage, it is mostly evangelical Protestants. See the chart partway down this page.

But voters who prefer to see a Democrat elected in 2004 are divided ­ 46% favor gay marriage, 48% oppose. A substantial minority of these Democratic-leaning voters strongly oppose gay marriage (25%).

[renie408]

180. Ok, good to know, but doesn't change the argument at all.

The issue isn't that there are religious people out there that are not anti-gay marriage. The issue is that the VAST majority of anti-gay marriage people make that determination based on their religious beliefs. I would be willing to bet it would run something like 99%. I would also strongly suspect that anyone who claims 'tradition' as their basis for banning gay marriage objects based in a large part on their TRADITIONAL religious beliefs.

[renie408]

140. Try again, on many counts.

Liberals can be bigoted. You have been here long enough to know that. Just about everybody is bigoted about something eventually. Liberals are human and flawed. Being bigoted AND liberal means that you are a liberal who needs to work on some things. It doesn't mean you aren't a liberal.

Do you deny that religion is most likely the number one factor influencing people against gay marriage? I am an atheist. I know lots of atheists. And none of the atheists I know objects to gay people getting married. The ONLY reason I have ever heard, after several years of arguing about this on the 'net, against gay marriage was based in religion. Period. This isn't about black, white, tan, green or gold. It is about religion. Period. I am too lazy to look them up, but I wonder what the statistics are for the percentage of blacks who consider themselves deeply religious? I would bet it is higher than 70%. A lot higher. Also, how typical would you consider your congregation? I am guessing not so much. Saying that YOUR congregation is mostly liberal, so that means that the premise behind the OP must be false is silly. That is like me saying that since I am an atheist, liberal, Democratic southerner, it is a mistake for anyone to say that the South is racist, conservative and religious. Primarily, it is...unfortunately.

[LittleClarkie]

151. I'm just saying that to blame religion as a whole is too broad a brush

My church is typical of the ELCA Lutheran denomination. We are the liberal Lutherans.

There is a Baptist equivalent, surprisingly. They are the North American Baptists.

Religion is a tool. Tools can be used in many different ways.

[renie408]

150. I tend to agree that religion was the factor and not race, but I do not agree

that we should "turn all of our churches into the museums they need to be, so we can look back and laugh at our stupidity." In fact, I find that comment really obnoxious and closed minded. Not ALL people of faith are bigoted towards the gay community. In your list, you completely ignore the great things members of churches do every day, all over the planet. There are parts of this world where the ONLY aid comes from people of faith. Where people of faith are the difference between life and death for whole communities.

I am, BTW, an atheist and, again, I agree that religion is primarily the cause of gay people being ostracized. What I can't understand is why people, ALL PEOPLE, cannot be tolerant of those who believe differently than they. Just because I don't believe in any god does not mean that I think that people that do are less intelligent, less worthy, just LESS than I am. Just as I don't think that someone who is attracted to a member of the same sex is less than I am. Your attitude towards religion and religious people is just as offensive as some religious people's attitude towards the GLBT community. It's ALL bigotry.

[Arugula Latte]

153. Yep. Religion is bullshit, and it is harming our society grievously.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

163. Atheism Is Bullshit, And It Is Harming Our Society Grievously.

[renie408]

181. Brown cows love BBQ.

See? I can write things that make absolutely no sense whatsoever, too!!

I get where you are going with that, but no matter how religious you are, you have to admit that more damaging things are done in the name of religion than in the name of atheism.

[kwassa]

159. So, how do you deal with churches that welcome and support gay people?

Religion isn't the problem, it is how some use religion.

I've seen so many gay clergy in my church. Obviously, religion is important to gay people, too. All the senior bishops in my church in California opposed Prop 8.

[Starry Messenger]

161. Calif. win emboldens coalition of religious groups

http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5hZmLBrL36NObNyMR0ghXN7vB5hYwD94ADAB80

"LOS ANGELES (AP) — Energized by a comeback win, conservative activists want to apply the same formula they used to outlaw same-sex marriage in California to prevent other states from recognizing gay unions and President-elect Barack Obama from expanding the rights of gays and lesbians.

Leaders of the successful Proposition 8 campaign say an unusual coalition of evangelical Christians, Mormons and Roman Catholics built a majority at the polls Tuesday by harnessing the organizational muscle of churches to a mainstream message about what school children might be taught about gay relationships if the ban failed.

Same-sex marriage bans also won in Arizona and Florida. But in putting together the California victory, the coalition overcame opposition from the state's political establishment and assumptions about how voters in the famously tolerant state would respond to taking away the rights the state's highest court granted this spring."

[McCamy Taylor]

162. Amend that to intolerant religion since some Churches stay out of the bedroom.

And since when does anyone in the US want the law to enforce religion?

[spoony]

170. The haters don't care.

They don't give a shit if you support them politically, if you're religious, they loathe you. It's become quite obvious, even more than it was before.

[Riktor]

165. I hate to piss on everyone's parade, but...

... is there anyone else around here who is disturbed by the Prop 8 witch hunt? Are we so eager to find a singular villain responsible for the destruction of gay marriage in California that we are willing to throw our objectivity into the fires of irrational passion and prowl the streets with torches and pitchforks in hand?

The minority vote favored Prop 8, so some of us have taken it upon ourselves to blame them. The LDS Church dumped money into campaigning for Prop 8, so some of us have taken it upon ourselves to petition the government to revoke their tax-exempt status. Even more of us have taken the simple and predictable path of simply blaming religion as a whole.

If anything's to blame for the success of Proposition 8, it is ignorance, not religion, not Mormonism, not race. The measure passed by 54%; 2% of Californians are Mormon, 6.5% are African American, 35.9% are Hispanic or Latino. Do the fucking math, people.

[ColbertWatcher]

183. "Do the fucking math, people." Let's not drag math into this.

The idiotic religious people will call you a witch.

But, more to the point, the exemption that churches enjoy specifically states that they cannot be as involved in political issues as the Mormon church was/is in Prop Hate.

So, if they didn't want to become targets for violating the law in regards to their tax exemption, they shouldn't have become involved in political issues to the extent they chose to.

If anything's to blame for the success of Proposition 8, it is ignorance

Where do you suppose that ignorance originated?

The pro-hate people funded commercials which distorted state law in order to frighten and confuse people.

How about this for math:

At least 64,000 people from all 50 states and more than 20 foreign countries have given money to support or oppose a same-sex marriage ban in California, reflecting broad interest in a race viewed by some as second in national importance only to the presidential election.

(...)

Supporters have raised at least $28.2 million, while opponents have taken in $32.3 million, closing a fundraising gap that had them $8 million behind a month ago.

--http://cbs2.com/politics/Gay.Marriage.Ban.2.849565.html">CBS2 Los Angeles

$60.5 million is a big number, but not the most interesting one. The numbers that interest me are the 64,000, the 50 and the 20. Who were these people who don't live in California, but are so interested in influencing California law?

Oh, wait, there's more ...

On the Yes side, Knights of Columbus, based in New Haven, Conn., is the measure's largest single contributor so far, having given $1.4 million. Other top contributors to the Yes on 8 campaign were Irvine banking heir Howard Ahmanson Jr.'s Fieldstead and Co. foundation ($1.1 million); John Templeton Jr., son of the late Bryn Mawr, Pa., investor John Templeton ($900,000); the Tupelo, Miss.-based American Family Association ($500,000), and Elsa Prince, ($450,000), mother of Blackwater founder Erik Prince.

--http://cbs2.com/politics/Gay.Marriage.Ban.2.849565.html">CBS2 Los Angeles

I guess you're right about doing the math.

And, just for fun, some links for the religiously inclined donors behind Prop Hate:

* http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Templeton,_Jr">John Templeton, Jr. (his father, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Templeton">Wikip*dia page about John, Sr.. BTW if you get a chance do a little research on his Templeton Foundation!)
* a little about Elsa, and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erik_Prince#Philanthropy_and_political_donations">a little about Erik
* http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Howard_Ahmanson_Jr.#Political.2C_cultural.2C_and_religious_financing">a bit about the Fieldstead and Co. foundation, and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Howard_Ahmanson_Jr.#Controversial_beliefs">a bit about what a freak Ahmanson, Jr. is!
* also, let's not forget the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Family_Association#Homosexuality">American Family Association, defining what constitutes an "American family" since 1977.
* Last, but not least, the IRS's hate speech targeting religions, which I feel must be quoted:

To be tax-exempt under section 501(c)(3) of the Internal Revenue Code, an organization must be organized and operated exclusively for exempt purposes set forth in section 501(c)(3), and none of its earnings may inure to any private shareholder or individual. In addition, it may not be an action organization, i.e., it may not attempt to influence legislation as a substantial part of its activities and it may not participate in any campaign activity for or against political candidates.

--IRS 501(c)(3) Exemption Requirements

Emphasis the IRS's not mine.

The internets are a wonderful thing!

[Riktor]

217. Pointless

You can talk about funding until the cows come home, but you can't change the fact the proposition would not have passed if people didn't vote for it. It is therefore more ingenuous to look at who voted for the proposition, rather than who threw money at it.

I dislike religion as much as the next agnostic, but your prejudice and lust for blame preclude you from drawing an objective conclusion.

[ColbertWatcher]

224. Wrong.

You can talk about funding until the cows come home, but you can't change the fact the proposition would not have passed if people didn't vote for it. It is therefore more ingenuous to look at who voted for the proposition, rather than who threw money at it.

Why did they vote for it?

Who influenced their decision to vote for it?

When was that influence applied?

And where was that influence applied?

As you can see from the links I posted, so-called "people of faith" went out of their way to fund this measure.

Why would they do this if not to get more people to vote the way they want them to?

Follow not just the math, but the money too.

[Riktor]

236. Demographics are more important

Terrific. People of faith went out of their way to fund a proposition that would eliminate a behavior they believe to be sinful. That's not a particularly incredible find, and it proves nothing.

Try looking at the situation like this:

Q: Why did 54% of California's voters favor Proposition 8?

A: Because churches across the US funded an ad campaign to overturn it.

That's not an answer. It just begs the question, "Why did people listen to the churches?". The answer, of course, is ignorance. Voters without a college education favored Prop 8, while those with a college education generally disapproved. If everyone in this country had access to decent education, there might have been fewer people willing to listen to the maniacal ramblings of the clergy. It does, after all, take two people to make a lie: One to tell it, and another to believe it.

[ColbertWatcher]

238. Which brings us back to: who perpetuates that ignorance? Religion, of course! n/t

[MellowDem]

166. Too Broad

Not all religions or denominations backed H8. There is a lot of diversity out there in the religious community that you are ignoring. And the rest of your post is just an attack on religion itself. And again with the stupid-ass shit about Religion being the one Evil in the world that if we could only get rid of, we'd have utopia. Black and White, Good and Bad, what does that sound like? You are quite a religious fellow my friend.

I'm sick of the myth, promoted by some out there who should know better, that religion has caused the most wars or the most deaths or etc. etc. infinite. It's all fucking bullshit. You could say the same about agriculture, or government. It's that general and that meaningless. It's so much more complicated than some knuckleheads make it out to be, and you have to have practically no real understanding of history to view religion in such a way. Religion has been with mankind in one form or another since the dawn of man, that doesn't mean it is to blame for everything. It was often used as an excuse for war. But so were tons of other things. In fact, the real reasons behind the vast majority of all mankind's wars was very secular. Religion often gave meaning and justice to these secular goals; more food, more territory, etc. etc. But we all know that religion doesn't have to be a reason to go to war. The 20th century is chock full of wars with millions dying that were all about resource control. Hell, the Crusades were not really about religion and more about poverty and instability needing a release in Europe. Religion was just a useful way to channel that energy away from the Feudal Lords. But it also included promises of a golden land with prizes for those who would go fight, in other words, very base, selfish reasons that had nothing to do with religion were what drove many to war. Some may have tried to excuse it away or twist their intentions to fit a religion, but how is that religion's fault? Religion has also stood against war or stood against aggressive expansion of power and cruel behavior. It is not an either or. Religion is just a reflection of a people's own culture and values. Without religion, people still hold a certain culture and value, and that is what drives the "good" or the "bad" in the world. Removing religion does nothing.

Your view of religion is incredibly simplistic and faulty, not to mention dogmatic. Religious and secular ideology can keep people from thinking for themselves, we have seen many examples of this. They can both also encourage people to think for themselves and resist wrongdoing. It's not one or the other.

[asteroid2003QQ47]

167. Harvey Milk said it best--

“More people have been slaughtered in the name of religion than for any other single reason. That, my friends, that is true perversion.”
--Harvey Milk

Religion is the purest of poison
spewed by unfortunates who need imaginary gods.
------------------------------

Religions play bare-knuckle rough all the time, while demanding kid-glove treatment in return.
--Salman Rushdie

[spoony]

168. The new DU = more hate, more open about embracing it

More and more every day. You'd think an Obama victory would lessen the bile spewed about religion, since he's religious, but no. And one can alert to their heart's content, the mods don't give a fuck, because "fuck all you religious people" is apparently the new slogan for the site.

[TexasObserver]

171. Yes, religion and its bigotry are the culprits.

The attitude that religion is sacrosanct, that religion cannot be labeled the destroyer it is, are both part of the problem in addressing the vile excess of religion.

[spoony]

178. Blanket attacks on entire demographics are always wrong.

Those aren't my words, btw, they're yours from another thread today where you cheered for an email from No on 8 about not slurring entire groups for its passing.

[TexasObserver]

184. A religion isn't a demographic.

The letter to which I referred was sensible. Your opinions on this matter are not.

Your silly superstitions are the bane of human existence.

[spoony]

188. The letter included religious people. Maybe you forgot that part.

Your silly bigotry is the bane of human existence. You're no better than anyone who voted for 8.

[TexasObserver]

191. Rationally rejecting ancient superstitions is thinking. Following them is not.

You've now demonstrated that you don't know what bigotry means. Stop before you reveal more about yourself.

[spoony]

195. A very poor attempt to change the subject.

And then some veiled, half-hearted attempt at redirecting it at me. You never were very good at this, I remember you now.

[TexasObserver]

198. whatever

I'm sure you were a good altar boy, and somewhere someone respects your loyalty to your religion.

[renie408]

202. Really? Thinking that religion is the problem is as bad as denying the GLBT community

the right to choose their legal partner in the same manner as heterosexuals? Cause, gee, I don't get that.

[renie408]

185. "Religion" isn't a group. It is an organizing tool initiated in ancient times to

control large numbers of people. "Christians" are a group. A group of which the majority is against gay marriage. They are against gay marriage based on their religious beliefs.

[spoony]

189. A hint: in the future, read what you're responding to

so that you don't look so damn foolish.

[renie408]

200. What did I misinterpret? You wrote in response to a post attacking religion

that attacking an entire 'group' was blah blah blah. I responded that religion isn't a group.

BTW... Here's a hint for you: Don't respond like an asshole to everyone that disagrees with you. Attacking ME doesn't make YOU right.

[TexasObserver]

203. you're getting "the treatment"

He ONLY engages in short, pithy comments lacking any substance, the sole object of which is be argumentative.

[renie408]

206. Well, he's an idget then, isn't he? n/t

[TexasObserver]

220. See what I mean?

It's like talking to a 12 year old.

[spoony]

211. Oh geez, you're one to talk.

:rofl:

[spoony]

212. No, genius, you missed the whole plot

It was a post about a hypocrite who one moment was embracing unity (a post you clearly never saw, it involved the line in my sig) and the next spitting on it. Go start another hair-splitting thread explaining why bigots aren't really bigots.

[renie408]

216. Does it show? The fact that I am a genius?

I know there is a lot of discussion over the validity of IQ tests, but mine generally range from 148 to 152. So, technically, I AM actually a genius. It is so COOL that you just knew. Gee, does that mean that you are a genius, too? Cause you seem to be SO much better at hiding it than I am, it is hard to tell.

[TexasObserver]

194. It is incontrovertible that opposition to homosexual rights is based upon religion.

Those who blindly defend religion because it is THEIR opiate are very much like those who long claimed that the Bible supported treating blacks as less than human.

Religion is fighting to stop gay rights, and anyone who is unwilling to admit that is either an elected official or hopelessly compromised by their religion.

[iamthebandfanman]

172. its not just simply religion, im afraid to say

sure, religion is used to reinforce these negative thoughts(even tho any sane person could see jesus and God would be severely disappointed in people judging others like they are God)

i think it has more to do with peoples ego's and self righteousness.

i dunno if uve noticed but...
theres alot of ignorant people in the united states..
and on top of that, they are very proud of that...

so proud that they voted a dumbshit(just like them) into office for two terms.

people are self serving, and like to feel righteous. its been this way for a long time. heck, it happened so much it got a bible verse. you know, the whole 'he who is without sin cast the first stone'. people like to put down others to get some sick joy and thus lift themselves outa whatever self loathing and hating they have. for some people, its just easier to hate someone else(anybody else) versus being forced to look at themselves and actually judge themselves on their quality of human being.

its more complicated than JUST religion.
besides, not all religion preaches this kinda intolerance.

[CRF450]

186. One other way you should view it, is from a natural point of view

Throught different animal species, one sex being attracted to another of the same sex is just not natural. Though we as humans have mostly evolved to put aside these natural rejections to the same sex, it still reigns supreme in most peoples mindsets. I am guilty of being one of them, I am comfortable with my sexuality, but I could never ever kiss or have any kind of an intercourse with another guy lol.

[renie408]

210. I would imagine your response is largely cultural.

Animals have intercourse between the sexes for one reason only: procreation. But animals will engage in long term same sex 'friendships' which include sexual behavior. I had two mares who were long term 'lovers'. They loved each other and were devoted to each other. They would mount each other regularly. 'Experts' will tell that mounting in animals is a dominance behavior, but I have seen both non-dominant and dominant animals mount another animal. I have lived with and raised dogs and horses my whole life.

With humans, it is a lot more complicated. We mate for a lot of reasons. I do think we are essentially, naturally, attracted to one sex or another. But I would be willing to bet that in a less restrictive cultural atmosphere, you would see a lot more bisexual behavior. Face it. If somebody is sucking on your penis, that feels good whether 'somebody' is a woman or a man. I am not saying that true homosexuality is a 'choice'. I don't think you can choose your primary attraction. I think people could probably have satisfactory sexual relationships with either sex given a more open culture.

[doyourealize1]

173. Sorry, I have to disagree with your post

I don't understand the hatred for religion.

Religion is not a bad thing. Taking it too far can be bad if it impinges on the others' rights. However, religion heals people. It makes them feel secure. Most religious people are good citizens. Are you ready to call my religion, Buddhism, a bad thing? Most Buddhists hurt no one. We keep our views to ourselves.

Calling religion bullshit and demanding that churches turning into museums is close-minded and unwarranted.

Treating a few bad apples as representative of an entire group is the same kind of thinking held by racists. Do people from white supremacy organizations represent the views of all whites? No, they do not.

I voted no one 8 because it was a discriminatory amendment. I can understand why people would be uncomfortable with the idea, but it is a matter of opinion. Still, at the same time, you don't know that the most of the "no" votes were motivated by religion.

[really annoyed]

177. People Who Supported Prop 8

Wow, I haven't posted here in over 2-3 years. I was very happy about Obama's win, and decided to come back.

I have been following Prop 8 closely, and have been reading a lot of news articles on those who voted yes had to say about it. Here are some of the answers:

"I was born black. I can't change that," said Culver City resident Bilson Davis, 57, who voted for Proposition 8. "They weren't born gay. They chose it," he added, reflecting a commonly held belief that many researchers dispute.

Los Angeles resident Christopher Hill, 50, said he was motivated by religion in supporting Proposition 8. Civil rights, he said, "are about getting a job, employment." Gay marriage, he said, is not: "It's an abomination against God."

"This has been a moral battle," said Ellen Smedley, 34, a member of the Mormon Church and a mother of five who worked on the campaign. "We aren't trying to change anything that homosexual couples believe or want -- it doesn't change anything that they're allowed to do already. It's defining marriage.... Marriage is a man and a woman establishing a family unit."

"I'm very pro-family, I'm not a gay hater," said Carrie Tomseth, 51. "I have strong religious beliefs, but that's not what is really motivating me." She said she didn't like the fact that California's Supreme Court had overruled the voters in June, striking down the state's ban on same-sex marriage. "I don't like lawyers telling me what to do," she said.

Carlos Tangonan, 39, walked out of the polling station and into a light rain. He said he'd voted for McCain and Proposition 8. "I am the father of two children and we were raised with Christian values," the Port of Los Angeles policeman said. "Will they teach about gay marriage in school? I want my children to be taught that marriage is between a man and a woman. I don't discriminate, but this is what I believe."

Here is a list of churches/organizations/people that supported Prop 8:

Roman Catholic Church
Union of Orthodox Jewish Congregations of America
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints
An association of Evangelical Christians led by Jim Garlow and Miles McPherson
American Family Association
Focus on the Family
National Organization for Marriage
Rick Warren, pastor of Saddleback Church
Bishops of the California Catholic Conference

The passing of Prop 8 ABSOLUTELY has to do with religious beliefs. However, that does not negate religious people who SUPPORT gay rights either.

Here are the religious organizations that OPPOSED Prop 8:

All six Episcopal diocesan bishops in California
Board of Rabbis of Southern California
Jewish Mosaic
American Jewish Committee
Progressive Jewish Alliance
National Council of Jewish Women
Anti-Defamation League

Here is a BIG list of churches that opposed Prop 8:

http://www.noonprop8.com/about/who-opposes-prop-8

MANY of these organizations were also active in trying to defeat Prop 8 too.

Let's be fair here, and separate those who use religion to support their hate and those who use religion to make the world a better place. I'm an atheist myself, but I fully support ANY individual who works for progressive issues. Liberal religious believers are very tolerant and are not the ones trying to shove religion into the personal lives of their fellow American citizens.

On a lighter note, it's good to be back! :toast:

[Greyhound]

182. There's another rec for you. This is the first post on this issue I've replied to,

and I did because it is the first I've seen to get to the heart of the matter.

"But it's not my religion, it's those other bad religions, the people that follow my religion are good and they're Democrats too! Of course, all those people that don't believe in my religion are going to suffer the torments of Hell for eternity, because they just don't understand that God loves them."

And the flip-side; "Be grateful for the crumbs we deign to allow you, be tolerant and accept the yoke of servitude, you will get your reward after you die."
:wtf:

[1Hippiechick]

187. CHRISTIAN: rebranded PHARISEE. MAN has ruined SPIRITUALITY with RELIGION

and every heinous crime in this country, dating back to the "discovery" of America (I didn't know it was lost), has been done in the name of 'Christianity." Look what these 'Christians' did to Native Americans. Look what they did to the black man of Africa. Look at what our military are doing - soldiers are being harrassed if they DON'T 'profess' man's version of Christianity in the military.

It's about POWER and CONTROL under the guise of "Christianity." It's not about making the world a better place for all people. It's about making races conform to the WHITE way of life as determined by a select group. These so-called Christians would be more truthfully branded as the "Christian Klan" imo. They have twisted Jesus' teachings into some warped, homophobic, hate-filled, racist exclusive "code of conduct" that is to be followed by ALL people. May they all rot in the hell that they believe their hate-filled God would condemn people to.

Your post is AWESOME and spot on. I will kick at every opportunity I have.

[Bryn]

219. Also, "Christianity" hurt Hawaiians

They tried to take away their dancing, music & culture, etc. I watched the history on PSB long time ago. It caused Hawaiians to become a minority in their own land done by Christianity.

Also "Christianity" took away Native Americans' spiritual beliefs and caused them to drink because they had nothing to hold on.

[Recursion]

201. Oh, so if these homophobes were atheists, they would stop being homophobes?

I think that's really simplistic. The cause was a societal aversion to homosexuality. Religion reflects that, it doesn't cause it.

[muriel_volestrangler]

207. Most of them would, I think

See the figures in post #205. There's a high correlation between attending church frequently and voting yes on the proposition.

Or are you saying that being homophobic causes people to go to church?

[Recursion]

208. The latter

We have an aversion to homosexuality that is very strong in this culture (well, male homosexuality, at least), many of our institutions (like, the church, the military, marriage) are shaped to reinforce that. So, churches attract people who hold that aversion (and many, many other characteristics) and repel people who don't.

There will be marriage equality when enough of the country has escaped that aversion. As to how to make that happen, you've got me.

[renie408]

232. This is a chicken and the egg problem.

Which came first, our society's aversion to homosexuality or religious teaching against it?

People are not 'naturally' homophobic. There is evidence to support that. In another thread on this subject, I posted a link to an article about the Netherlands. Gay marriage there is a non-issue. Nobody cares whether or not you are gay and you can get married. The Netherlands is one of the least religious countries in Europe. I am an atheist and spend time with many other atheists, both on the internet and personally. I have never met an atheist that gave two shits about gays getting married. My kids are not homophobic. They have never been raised to notice a person's sexuality or their race. A lot of that is anecdotal evidence, but it leads me to believe that this kind of bigotry is taught. And the biggest teacher of anti-gay bigotry is organized religion. So, I am guessing that religious bias against homosexuality came first and from that, a general societal aversion developed.

[Recursion]

233. You're taking your cultural and moral framework...

...and assuming that is the natural state of humankind, from which everyone else has deviated.

This is a common fallacy. I do it, you do it, homophobes do it. In fact, homophobia is basically the act of doing that when applied to sexuality.

[renie408]

215. So, you think that straight people, without 2500 years of religious

bias, are naturally homophobic?

I cannot even BEGIN to say how much I disagree with this. I think it is so obviously ridiculous that it is, well, OBVIOUS.

[muriel_volestrangler]

205. Church attendance is the big problem: here are the exit poll numbers

I posted this in the equivalent thread in GDP. I think the numbers are important for this discussion.

Vote By Church Attendance
                   Yes  No
Weekly (32%)       84%  16%
	
Occasionally (44%) 46%  54%

Never (21%)        17%  83%

http://edition.cnn.com/ELECTION/2008/results/polls/#val=CAI01p2

So, 32% of voters attend church at least weekly; they voted overwhelmingly for Prop 8. 44% attend occasionally; they voted 'no' by a narrow margin. Those who never attend voted overwhelmingly against.

As noted, there are some churches who support equal gay rights; but they are unfortunately the minority. It looks like the influence of preachers and sermons that is the problem.

[LatteLibertine]

209. Religion

does do a lot to fuel anti-gay sentiments, and of course wacky preachers who use the same. Not all that are religious are bigoted vs gay folks and they're a minority within their group.

Eventually, prop 8 will fall.

[rhett o rick]

225. I appreciate that the mod's let this thread run. It is good to have a strong debate. nm

[earth mom]

227. Yep, the fundie whack jobs won't rest until everyone thinks and believes as they do.

:puke:

[ecstatic]

230. Why isn't there as much outrage about what passed in AR, AZ, and FL

as there is about Prop 8 in Cali?

Don't flame... just asking a question...

[1Hippiechick]

235. Our constitution was written by Christian slave owners. 'Nuff said. n/t Kick AGAIN

[rhett o rick]

241. Many of our founding fathers were not Christians. Can you be specific? nm

[Sanctified]

240. California as an average is less religious than the rest of the country.

I am just saying, blame the Mormons all you want they make up 2% of the population in California. There is another group of people in California who make up over 35% of the population, who voted heavily against gay marriage but you can't call them out without being called a racist.

[rhett o rick]

243. Were is the statistic that Calif is less religious? Also the LDS church members donated huge amounts

of cash to support the amendment, according to Thom Hartmann.