What the HELL IS GOING ON HERE ON DU!

[KoKo]

Some kind of war between Black voters and Gay Rights Voters?

Please tell me the couple posts I scanned are not saying what I'm reading?

Is this some kind of SPLIT TO THE DEATH in the Dem Party? I thought we had that between the Likkudists and the TIKKUNs (or whatever the split there is that if one posts about Israel it immediately goes into an "I/P" segregated Forum on DU...sort of like "9/11 ..so called Conspiracy stuff."

NOW...as if DU isn't rampant with all kinds of stuff we now have Gays accusing Blacks (after an African-American that all DU'ers supported WINS an ELECTION) and some bloody battle breaks out between Gays and Blacks on DU?

Please tell me I'm wrong. I didn't have time to get into all the posts but the last two I saw were so UGLY I couldn't believe the Mods didn't lock them and send them into one of the so-called "Conspiracy Dungeons" where folks could fight out "Gods, Guns, Gays, Race and Israel!"

Sheesh...what the hell is going on around here!

[plaintiff]

1. It's pretty simple, actually. A large percentage of one certain group voted to take away the rights

of another certain group.

[msongs]

3. hmm referring to people of a certain religion are you : -) nt

[plaintiff]

9. But of course!

:D

[HughMoran]

4. Are you promoting this ridiculous wedge?

I hope not.

[plaintiff]

7. I'm promoting facts. I hope nobody is objecting to that.

:shrug:

[EFerrari]

17. Yes, he is. n/t

[justiceischeap]

8. Straight people?

I'm gay but I don't live in California but Prop 8 affects the entire gay community. It was straight people that voted against gay people to take our rights away. You can't blame any other group than that. Here's the rub, not all straight people voted Yes, not all black people voted yes, not all Hispanics voted Yes. However, I'd bet that 99.9% of the people who voted Yes were straight but that doesn't mean we should hate all straight people either. That'd make us not much different than the folks that voted in favor of taking our rights away.

[plaintiff]

14. I'm gay too. Probably for way longer than you. And I reserve the right to demonize

any asshole who voted to restrict my rights. If they happen to be Icelandic taxidermists, they're culpable too...fuck 'em.
;-)

[justiceischeap]

23. Welp, I've been gay all my life... so there ya go.

If I was a guy, would this be where we whip out our penises and measure them?

I think if you look at the exit polls, the majority of the people who voted yes for 8 were white or hispanic.
http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2008/results/polls/#val=CAI01p1

[Patchuli]

68. Yep

cracker-types voted Yes. But us normal pasty folks who believe in civil rights voted NO, NO AND Nooooooooooooo! I hope this is going to the Supreme Court dammit! I blame the Mormon and Catholic churches for this one! They bankrolled it!

[thunder rising]

27. We don't know what you are, but you look like concern trolls and antagonists.

That's a problem with an anonymous society.

[CreekDog]

118. then why the hell aren't those posts deleted?

i mean what the hell. what does it take to get a post deleted if saying "blacks did this to us..." blah blah blah isn't enough?

[Name removed]

137. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[CreekDog]

117. but you are demonizing people that didn't vote in that way

by singling out their group for special attention and ridicule.

[MNDemNY]

131. Shoes that fit, should be worn.

[MNDemNY]

161. delete

[The Doctor.]

130. That's an interesting thing for any 'gay' person to say.

So when did you decide to be gay?

[plaintiff]

136. What????????? are you fucking insane?

jeezus
I didn't 'decide' it, that's a question I'd expect to hear from some asshole like Limbaugh.
:grr:

[The Doctor.]

140. Oh fer Christ's sake, get a grip.

You said that you've 'been gay' 'longer than' thecorrection.

THAT sounds like someone who doesn't understand that being gay isn't a 'choice'. Now, if you just mean that you're really old, then that can be understood... even though you don't know how old thecorrection is.

What I was doing, as I hoped would be obvious to any DUer, was try to sniff you out and see if you were on the level.

If you'd said, "About when I was 17.", that would have been rather telling... don't you think?

So, did you just mean you're really old?

[plaintiff]

143. I am 66. If that's old then I suppose I am.

:shrug:

[The Doctor.]

146. Hey... I'm not the one insinuating you're old here.

:silly:

[plaintiff]

164. It wouldn't be an insinuation, it'd just be a fact...

:-)

My partner of 29 years is way more sanguine about all this stuff, he thinks it's mostly just silly. I probably should be listening to him.
:-)

[Strathos]

133. A-Men

I'm pissed at all people who believe I should be a second class citizen, but more pissed at those who've suffered but never learned their lesson.

[plaintiff]

138. It's impossible, without a current program, to know who it's okay to demonize around here

from one day to the next. I guess they deleted that rule about having a thick skin. :eyes:

[Corkey Mineola]

147. right on brother

I've been gay a long time... perhaps too long... And I need to not sideline on this one.
I love my country too much, and my party, and my new president...

LmAo on Icelandic Taxidermists... do they know the chickens in CA are now protected by law?

[chimpymustgo]

37. No. One group is being SCAPEGOATED. They did not case Prop 8 to pass. But racism is alive and well.

[kevinbgoode]

47. Right....they voted overwhelmingly against it.

Now that's called revisionism.

[Raineyb]

94. While making up a small minority of total voters

which while the percentages are horrendous doesn't make the black vote the deciding factor in Prop 8 passing. Despite what some would have you believe. That is the point that people are objecting to. You can't go making it sound like if the 6% of the electorate voted differently that the damn thing would have failed when the numbers do not support it then say it's that group's fault that it passed.

Regards

[freethought gal]

98. You summed it up nicely

[wroberts189]

116. yes ...and people do not understand why ..enter the scapegoats n/t

[Xenotime]

124. Who did what to who?

This doesn't sound fair.

[321Outright]

156. how do they come to that figure?

saying that the majority of black voters voted yes on prop 8? Is it based off of exit polls or what? If so, what was the sample size of those polls? I havent heard this talked about. I really dislike generalizations, and would like to hear exactly how this percentage was calculated. thanks in advance for any info anyone can share on this.

[msongs]

2. temporary, it will pass. nt

[LeftCoast]

5. A lot of people are very angry right now

It is disappointing that it appears that a huge percentage of African Americans voted in favor of Prop 8. Still, it's totally unfair to blame all AAs just as it is unfair to blame the GLBT community as some seem to want to.

[kevinbgoode]

48. how many times does someone have to type 70%?

Is 70% equal to the whole?

And I'm sorry - but voting for the first time in California history to amend the constitution to REMOVE the constitutional rights of a single group of Californians isn't a "disappointment" -it's tyranny.

Geez - how many of you would accept the decision of strangers to vote to nullify YOUR marriage against your will?

[LeftCoast]

87. Hey...for the record, I'm one of the 18,000 people who's marriage was just voted on

I don't think anyone needs to tell me how I feel about it.

[struggle4progress]

108. How many times does someone have to point out that "70%" comes from a bullshit poll?

[CreekDog]

119. the posters that pulled that crap are responsible

i don't blame any group they belong to (if in fact they consider themselves part of any).

and they better not hide behind any group as an excuse for race baiting. same goes for not excusing homophobia on the basis of some other injustices suffered.

[Peacetrain]

6. Something is definitely in the water today and tonight

I tried to read a couple of the threads, and realized I am not sure what is happening

[malaise]

18. It's too sad

I'm upset about the vote on the amendment and even more upset at these divisive threads.

[Peacetrain]

32. It is sad...

[puerco-bellies]

10. Hi KoKo1!

I hang out in the lounge and have not seen you post in a while. Just like always, we fight among st ourselves. Remember dems vs greens after the selection? People will calm down or eat granite, and we will be back to being a herd of cats.

[Swamp Rat]

11. Best thing we can do is focus on appealing any unconstitutional amendment like CA Prop 8,

stop any new ones in their tracks, and go after the America-haters who are behind them.

[KoKo]

25. Swampy..

I have tears like your Avatar thinking how we Dems tear ourselves apart here on this forum. I'm not you or what you've been through fighting for your rights...but never forget that many of us who aren't you have scars from our own battles. I thought that this site could be a place where all of us could kind of come with baggage of our own and not get into fighting about this but work forward to understanding.

I guess through the years,here, I shoulda learned that it's always about one's "own turf."

Peace...don't want to sound like I'm putting down what's going on...but there were two really ugly posts blaming African-Americans and Latinos for shooting down Gay rights...it just didn't seem good to see that here... :-( But, I shouldn't have been surprised considering the "turf wars" that we've been through in the past....about our "individual rights" for our beliefs. It's just hard to undestand what issue is important enough not to get locked when other issues are locked or sent to "Conspiracy Forums."

I have a thing about Hypocricy and why some issues are considered divisive here on DU and others are Not...and the ugliest things can be posted sometimes and never locked...but discussion gets sent off to dungeons.

We have a great moment in American History...I'm sorry it caused pain for so many in California with Prop. #8... But to have racial wars over it here on DU just seemed kind of OTT to me. Why all the BLAME?

[Swamp Rat]

31. The color of one's skin has nothing to do with it.

I am not interested in any divisive theories regarding who is to blame.

What happened, plain and simple, was a group of bigots voted to oppress another group.

This will not stand.

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."

:hi: KoKo01 :hug:

[KoKo]

34. yeah...I hear what you say....

I'm okay with it...just going at it from another angle for the two ugly posts I saw.

:hug: back attcha...

On Edit: Wouldn't it be great if we could just look on each other for who we are that we like in each other without all this shit? Wouldn't it be great....rather than always dividing ourselves with our important issues. But, unless we work for our "important issues" we can't get to that point where we can accept ourselves for who we are, I guess. I just wish it could be better after all this time.

[TahitiNut]

57. !

:pals:

Funny how that isn't obvious yet, huh?
I wish the exit polls measured height ... then we could 'hate on' the 5'8"-5'10" folks.

It'd make as much sense.

[ebayfool]

84. Do you know who the polling group/newspaper/whoever was that took ...

or commissioned the exit poll that started this all off? I heard some of the numbers being quoted on the local newscast, but they didn't say WHO they were quoting. Damned if I can find out who started this ball rolling, but I'd like to know the origination.

I generally find (sometimes much later) that when something is put out 'there' that causes this much anguish, someone behind it is benefiting from the fall-out. And the only ones I can see liking the wedge/fall-out from this are fundies &/or gopers.

I do think that the people I've seen & talked to that voted pro8 were heavily (more like totally!) swayed by the ads that were playing 24/7 screeching @ kids being taught @ 'the gay' marriage in grade schools, parents having no say-so, etc. No amount of talking I could do was enough to counter the skeery ads. Black & white. The ads got to them. I've seen a hella lot more whites that were scared by them, btw.


I dunno.

on edit:
Ooops - found a source upthread. Off to check it out.:9

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x4411141#4411317

[TahitiNut]

88. I believe the exit polling was contracted by all media to a single polling firm ...

... either nationwide or according to state. I don't know whether the 'normalization' of the polling data is specific to any media organization, uniform throughout, or done 'cafeteria-style' (pick according to assumption set) by the contractor.

The slicing and dicing of humanity, unfortunately, is rather standard in sociometrics. Personally, I find it troublesome, to say the least.

[bobbolink]

139. WHEW!

Thank goodness that with age I've shrunkled below that 5'8" line of demarkation.

:evilgrin:

[Born_A_Truman]

159. I agree---ENOUGH!

Both my husband and I voted NO ON 8 here in California and were shocked that it passed. I had several live and robo calls from the Yes on 8 and nothing from No on 8. :shrug:

Up here in the high desert of San Bernardino County there were people on the street corners holding Yes on 8 signs and it wasn't until Saturday before the election that I saw No on 8 across from them.

We cannot allow the bigots to rewrite our state constitution. I want to help and if anyone knows where to go to get involved up here in the Victor Valley, let me know.

[Jamastiene]

102. Bingo!

That is EXACTLY what we should do. The infighting feels too much like my childhood when the family would fight and I just wanted everybody to get along. :scared: :cry:

[lonestarnot]

12. Whoa. Glad I missed that.

:(

[arthritisR_US]

13. the problem isn't between the blacks and the gays, the problem is with the christian taliban. n/t

[plaintiff]

15. The problem is overlap.

...

[arthritisR_US]

35. blacks, whites, hispanics, jews and and the upper crust all voted for it, Now, what was

the common denominator? Ah yes, their absolute reliance and acceptance of mythological writings. So when do we go back to having slaves and beating them as long as we don't kill them? The common denominator is religious talibanism.

[BlueJazz]

16. Ah..You can't blame people for being on edge about this issue.

It's so sad that half of the population would kick the 12% ?? of the population in the teeth.
I don't blame them for having "Anger Issues" right now....

This stuff is pretty serious ...

[EFerrari]

20. We can ask people to manage their own reactions appropriately.

Yeah, we can do that.

[BlueJazz]

44. What you say is true...but somebody in a state of anger usually won't hear...

..soothing, logical words. (I'm pissed off right now and nothing going to Rob me of that!)
:)

[EFerrari]

45. I know. H8 completely ecplised the Obama win for me.

:hug:

[kevinbgoode]

52. Yeah....a nice pat on the head and soothing words like:

"Hey...you didn't need that individual right to marry anyway. Just wait to do it until the Mormon elders deem it's appropriate for you. Now go run along and be the good little "boys" while Big Daddy makes all the decisions for you. And, by the way. . .boy. . .don't forget to pay your tithe and your taxes so Big Daddy can make your decisions for you in style."

[BlueJazz]

77. As far as the people who "drove" Prop. 8....I prefer cold revenge

...over anything.
If it was up to me and I had the charisma and
the money,I'd form a huge coalition of tax evaders or simply put (as one post stated):
"If we are not Full Citizens with Full Citizens right then Fuck You California"....
.."see how you do with your budget being cut by 50%."

And really..what is law enforcement going to do??..Put 7 Million people in Jail.??

I'd do it in a Heartbeat..I feel that strongly about it..screw the Consequence

[CreekDog]

120. do that and you'll just punish schoolkids and poor people for the most part

that's the problem with being rash. it's momentarily satisfying but ultimately unfulfilling (unless you are sadist).

two wrongs doesn't make a right.

[BlueJazz]

125. True...but if a Scenario, such as I described, were to take place....

... Politicians and the public would move Mountains to change the Law.
Within 2-4 weeks all funding would be restored to Schools and other necessary institutions.

It's just a matter of "Calling their bluff"

[CreekDog]

153. you don't have the numbers

you don't have 50%. i voted against Prop. 8 and I'm going to pay all my taxes, as will most others I know.

i refuse to take out my disapproval on the less fortunate.

[mitchtv]

76. especially not from the newly privileged

As a California gay I will remember this next election day; when families want schools and the llike I will vote NO.Also i am lucky enogh to live in an area where I can avoid all strate owned restaurants . let them eat their principles

[CreekDog]

121. what if they voted against Prop. 8?

still gonna *punish* them?

what about all those schoolkids whose parents are gay couples? still gonna *punish* them?

anger is appropriate, but paying back bigotry with bigotry is the behavior of a scoundrel. once you cross that line, you don't get sympathy for the wrong done to you because you've meted out your own justice so that there is no wrong unsettled.

[mitchtv]

145. Karma's a bitch

self interest is not bigotry, I don't need sympathy from anyone. I need to stop supporting the children of people who hate me. Less rights. should equal less taxes. Money is the only thing understood, Gays should make California's economy hemmorage if possible. Boycotts tax slowdowns , Outings frivolous lawsuits, anything to disrupt. Sorry you strates don't like it tough on everyone

[CreekDog]

154. you don't even know that voting no on Prop 8 was the gay rights position

do you understand anything?

and if you take it out on people that supported you, straight or not, you are a fool and you harm your own interests.

[mitchtv]

155. Luckily, i guessed the right answer and voted no

vivid imagination you have. WE GET FUCKED we don't sit around and take it , we make everyones'lives. miserable It works for me.

[CreekDog]

157. thank you for the clarification

i see what's going on now.

[MNDemNY]

162. Seems you are the one wanting to "Punish"

Should I post your private message to me?

[CreekDog]

163. i said in my message to you that i will not support you when you smear black people

i fully support equality for gays and that includes marriage and will continue to vote in a way that reflects that.

however, i won't march next to you (you personally) while you are spouting inflammatory and racially accusatory words towards the black community on this board. and i'm referring to your inexcusable "shoe fits..." language.

[MNDemNY]

165. You said more than that, fess up to your hypocrisy or I embarrass you publicly.

You said you would not support the cause of gay rights because you got your widdle feelings hurt.It's those "shoes" that you seem to wear so proudly that render you incapable of marching.

[CreekDog]

169. that's not true

i will never vote against gay rights and i never have.

i will not support people personally in their struggle if they are going after other minorities as part of their effort. i won't punish others for your mistakes however.

(on edit: need to emphatically state that i have always voted for the position favoring full civil rights for gays and i will always do that).

you can say this is akin to supporting a Palestinian state but not supporting the ANSWER coalition because it appears to me to contain a lot of anti semitic views.

[chimpymustgo]

158. Quite the progressive...

[kevinbgoode]

49. Really? And what is the appropriate response to having your

marriage annulled by popular vote rather than your will? Is it really so difficult for people to understand that this goes way beyond gay issues. The entire concept of marriage WAS considered a HIGHLY PERSONAL, INDIVIDUAL RIGHT - which has now been revoked by the tyranny of the majority. That sets a constitutional precedent to question ANYONE'S individual rights in the future. And the dominionist groups promoting and financing these amendments have no problem at all doing just that - have you forgotten their demand of the state of Florida (multiple times) to forcibly end the Schiavo marriage?

In one heinous act in Florida, these same groups managed to throw most every American family into chaos, looking for extra LEGAL protections for rights that were supposed to be automatic in the marriage laws - for straight people. It just astounds me how so many people here either know nothing about marriage - or don't seem to care about their own individual rights.

[EFerrari]

Yes, really.

[TexasObserver]

19. It's the classic GOP launched wedge issue.

You know how they love to drive a wedge between important segments of the Democratic coalition. Take the Jews v. Blacks theme. That's one they love to promote.

Here, it's the blacks v. gays, as if either group had the stroke to harm the other group.

Yeah, let's ignore the people responsible for the passage - everyone who voted for it - and let's blame that 4% of the population which was black who voted for it.

It's scapegoating, and it's not helpful. The problem comes from the religions that push their vile hatred and bigotry.

[EFerrari]

21. Of course it is.

[Peacetrain]

26. ....

[KoKo]

33. Do you think that Blacks and Latinos are all Fundie Christians? The two ugly posts I saw

seemed to say it was a "racial thing" with those two groups. Those were posts that were so OTT...they seemed to be something that should have been "locked" because they weren't about churches and regligion and beliefs that would have brought down Prop #8...but that it was "indigenous" to their culture. :shrug:

[TexasObserver]

59. NO.

[readmoreoften]

91. Links with accusations, please.

[Warpy]

22. Our LGBT members are understandably bitter at the Prop 8 passage

They are very bitter that black churchgoing blacks, fresh from their own civil rights struggle, voted to deny LGBT people their civil rights.

I understand the bitterness, although I don't join it.

What they need to remember is that Democrats voted against it nearly two to one.

They also need to remember that it's the churches, not the party and certainly not a single race, that caused that terrible measure to pass.

It passed, but it won't stand forever. Amendments that strip rights from American citizens, no matter which minority they represent, have never stood for long.

Whether it is eliminated by the courts or simply repealed at a later date, this too shall pass. Remember, it barely passed. It won't take long for enough of an old guard to die off that it can be repealed.

[KoKo]

29. We here on this site since the "Stolen Election 2000" sure have learned..."Nothing Comes Easy."

So...what you say is probably the truth of it... Look how long it took for
Womens Vote and African-Americans to be able to vote after they had the vote long before women.

It all takes time...

[Bluebear]

67. "It all takes time... " - -yeah but in this case we HAD it & it was 'voted' away

That hurts.

[EFerrari]

30. And they are understandably blaming the 7% for the whole?

:wtf:

No. The media has been pushing the story that black people passed H8.
I've yet to see a fact check.

I've yet to see any awareness of the very small number those voters added to the total.

People are upset and they're buying into hype.

[jonnyblitz]

38. will you PLEASE stop misrepresenting what is going on?!?!

you are really starting to piss me off with your FUCKING distortion!! NOBODY IS BLAMING THEM ONLY. we are blaming them ALSO along with the others that voted YES. JUST STOP IT!

[EFerrari]

40. What is going on is that black voters are being slammed because it's easy.

:hi:

[Luminous Animal]

43. I agree. (n/t)

[kevinbgoode]

53. Bullsh*t.

The 70% of that demographic who voted to remove the constitutional rights of another group are being blamed. Their skin color doesn't exempt them from criticism of such a heinous act.

[foo_bar]

95. which "demographic" is that, Californians?

I'm not in that community in which 70% of the members voted to remove the constitutional rights of another minority. http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=4401391&mesg_id=4401620
Their skin color doesn't exempt them from criticism

I'm sorry to repeat myself, but this seeming prejudice against an entire group of people, rationalized by an exit poll on one statewide initiative in Cali, isn't lessened by euphemistically referring to a subgroup of Californian residents as "that demographic" or "that community" ("that one!"). Your gut feeling is pretty weak in terms of evidence:

In exit polling, sampling error also depends on how many poll sites have voters with the characteristic of interest. For example, black or high-income voters may be found clustered only in certain sample precincts. Sampling error may be up to three times larger for clustered characteristics.

http://surveys.ap.org/exitpolls/

You write:
In one heinous act in Florida, these same groups managed to throw most every American family into chaos

In fact:

"We <the Florida NAACP> voted to oppose Amendment 2. ... we do not support any attempt to write discrimination into our state constitution," Nweze said. "We oppose any legislative or ballot initiative that proposes to treat people differently based on their membership in a particular group. And it's consistent with what our organization has stood for throughout its 99 years."

http://www.floridabaptistwitness.com/9396.article

If you're going to blame an entire "community" or "demographic" for your woes, be precise. Also if you check out the Florida exit polling, there's very little disparity between these (arbitrary) ethnic categories, whereas religiosity is a pretty strong predictor of antipathy to human rights for GLBTs, so this Rovian divide 'n conquer stuff seems counterproductive when the real enemy is within 10-20 percentage points of electing Sarah Palin to national office.

[struggle4progress]

107. Bullshit from a bullshit poll. Why get in a hurry to swallow?

[cboy4]

112. Sigh. Ridiculous.

Read the polling stats.

It's time to air this out, and I see nothing wrong with it.

[kwassa]

58. You are among the ones misrepresenting this issue.

I did a search. There are 23 threads that pop up in GD under the search terms "prop 8 blacks".

it is racism, quite simply, to attack blacks and not others. There is no similar attack against other groups, except possibly Mormons.

[IndianaJones]

69. I attacked Asians...then again, I'm not afraid to call out bigots of my own race. nt.

[cboy4]

114. I know, that's the thing.....I enjoy calling out bigots of my own

race and I enjoy verbally assaulting those stupid ass Log Cabin gays ... some of the most ridiculous dumb fuck homos on the planet.

And I can't fucking stand racist whites, even though I'm a cracker.

Damn.

Why is it others are so defensive of their races when segments of their races/minority groups fuck up? :wtf:

[readmoreoften]

86. Your little search does nothing to approve that gays are "racist" and "attacking blacks"

A lot of gay people were SURPRISED that a larger percentage of African-Americans hate gay people than whites haters or hispanics haters or asian haters. That doesn't mean that anyone is saying BLACK PEOPLE ARE THE SOLE CAUSE OF THE PASSAGE OF PROP 8. And now this thread will "pop up" under the bullshit search terms you went through all the bother to track.

A thread titled BLACK FOLKS AREN'T RESPONSIBLE FOR PROP would be included. :crazy: Even think of that?

By the way, if you haven't noticed any attacks on gay people on DU, then you're probably a bigot yourself.

[readmoreoften]

89. You're really pushing this bullshit aren't you. I dare you to provide links to every poster

who says BLACK PEOPLE=RESPONSIBLE FOR THE PASSAGE OF PROP 8!!! I doubt there will be one.

No.. not: "WTF why would 70% of people in the black community vote for prop 8."
No.. not: "I can't believe that a larger percentage of black voters than white or latino voters in CA voted for prop 8..."

Those are expressions of wonder on the facts of the matter by naive people who thought that all oppressed communities magically become allies of other oppressed communities. Gay people who didn't know this feel jilted by people they thought were allies. Get over it.

If you're pissed off at 1 or 2 DUers, why the fuck don't you PM them instead of TRYING TO PERPETUATE A WAR THAT DOESN'T EVEN EXIST between two minorities that you don't even belong to?

If you understand so much about white privilege and straight privilege, you might want to put a sock in it and let us "stupid minorities" work it out without your immanent guidance.

Any LGBT who blames black voters or thinks black people are somehow more to blame for the passage of Prop 8 than the white people who voted for it are batshit crazy. Anyone who thinks that 70% of black voters voting against gay marriage doesn't mean that there statistically more people in the black community against gay rights than any other demographic other than Republican voters and Fundamentalists can't do math.

[gaspee]

135. EXACTLY

It's really pissing me off that a large segment of DU is now attacking the LGBT DU'ers as racists. isn't that fucking convenient.

Funny, it's a lot of people I have on ignore - and I only ignore anti-gay bigots. Funny, ain't it?

[cboy4]

106. Come on SF....I think you're starting to allow yourself to see

what you only wish to see.

You're on record as saying stats aren't your thing, and it's becoming obvious by the hour.

With all due respect.

[struggle4progress]

115. And all this rage is based on a highly questionable statistic from a bullshit poll

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=221&topic_id=88438&mesg_id=88438

[Arctic Dave]

24. It's kinda like when I was a kid and my brothers and I would

get into a huge fight and my Mom would say take it outside and figure it out. And if we break a single thing she would take switch to all of us.

I'm thinking when every one punches themselves out and start talking to each other we can all move foreward and solve this problem together.

My two cents.

[amdezurik]

28. i keep asking and no ons so far is honest enough

to produce where gays accused blacks of being the sole cause of it's passage. and here we have another lying thread making that claim.

[EFerrari]

41. Search the threads blaming whites in the last few days.

:shrug:

[kevinbgoode]

55. Really....ever hear of the Mormons?

And the Knights of Columbus? However, when the demographics of the vote are examined and broken down into various groups, the one ethnic group which overwhelmingly voted to remove the constitutional rights of another group were in the African-American community. That's the FACT. FACT.

Yes, there are other demographic groups - and yes, those stats are being digested. But this outrageous attitude that a darker skin color means automatic exemption from any responsibility for an action is beyond the pale. As an ethnic group, whites narrowly voted against the proposition. Hispanics voted for it...barely. Now when the vote from one group is 17% higher than the rest, it means there is something going on.

[EFerrari]

66. All black voters are only 10% of CA voters.

So, if you were serious, you'd be going after white men because they passed this proposition.

Or, you can sit there and ingest the media spin and become enraged at black voters and feel smug.

That'll work.

[kevinbgoode]

71. Apparently you haven't read anything posted about the Mormons

And apparently you don't understand the meaning of the word "ethnic" in the voting breakdown, and the fact that ONE ethnic groups statistic in favor of the proposition was 17% HIGHER than the next group. Not 1%. . .17%.

Now if you don't like data to be broken down by ethnic groups simply because you don't always want to see the results, get a law passed prohibiting the act.

THAT'LL work.

Oh...and by the way. Don't tell the victims how to analyze the data directly affecting their lives.

[EFerrari]

150. The category "mormans" is not the category "whites", Kevin and you know that.

And singling out a very small minority of voters based on their race (and on a poll you can't fact check) is racism. But, you also know that.

[cboy4]

109. White men shouldn't know better because they're not

discriminated against.

As for African Americans, that's a different story.

They should know better and that's the point of all of this.

There's nothing wrong with speaking the truth, even though it's bound to hurt some feelings.

[EFerrari]

152. There is no truth to the statement that black voters passed H8.

And the category "white men" itself contains subgroups that should know better. Gay white men, poor white men, disabled white men, for example.

[Raineyb]

46. I've posted links in 2 different threads

Of course you could actually go through the entire thread and find these for yourself but I suspect you're not really interested in that.

Here's one of the more egregious ones and it's the bloody OP no sifting needed.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=389&topic_id=4405273

Regards

[Starry Messenger]

51. Are you talking posts on DU or out in the media?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=4398803&mesg_id=4398900

[Cali_Democrat]

36. It's quite simple for some folks on here....BLAME BLACK PEOPLE!!!!

Blacks make up less than 7% of the electorate in California. A majority of Hispanics also backed prop 8 and there are MANY MANY more Hispanics than blacks in California.

Of course whites also make up a MUCH larger portion of the electorate than blacks. Asians also make up a larger portion of the electorate.

No matter....blame the Blacks!!!!

:eyes:

The reason prop 8 passed is VERY complicated. The blaming of blacks for prop 8 is pissing me off.

[kwassa]

39. Black people, always a popular scapegoat. Never fails.

Possibly 7-8% of the yes vote on Prop 8.

Therefore, it is THEIR fault.

[kevinbgoode]

61. Drama queen.

and 70% of their voting demographic. Yes. . .70% of that 7-8% of the yes vote...or maybe 10%...came from that demographic. A FAR higher percentage than from any other ethnic demographic. Get it? FAR HIGHER. Like 17% higher than any other ethnic demographic voting in the election.

Now why do you suppose that happened? Or. . .should we ignore it, since it's black?

[kwassa]

64. 70% of the demographic comes up to maybe 7% of the total vote

no, you shouldn't ignore it, but you shouldn't ...

BEAT IT INTO THE GROUND. Selective outrage is racist, no more, no less. Where is the outrage against others? What? No 23 threads on other groups? How interesting.

23 threads in GD on blacks and Prop 8. One of the saddest and least progressive days ever in this forum.

[struggle4progress]

110. And -- the 70% figure is problematic

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=221&topic_id=88438&mesg_id=88438

[Cali_Democrat]

74. We know it was far higher than other groups.

We get it. People like you have been flogging this point for days and will likely continue to do so.

This will yield little results for the GLBT cause and equal rights for all people. There were many, complicated reasons why prop 8 passed, but it was DEFINITELY not the sole reason for the passage of prop 8.

[readmoreoften]

90. It keeps being "flogged" because people like you keep distorting reality and calling us racist

for pointing out a simple fact. And then telling us that our anger at those who voted YES will yield "little results" and there were "many complicated reasons why prop 8 passed: BULLSHIT.

There is ONE reason why Prop 8 passed: SELFISH HOMOPHOBIC ASSHOLES AND THEIR ENABLERS OF ALL RACES AND RELIGIONS
There is only ONE THING that has ever brought us justice: OUR ANGER AT SUCH PEOPLE

The little equality we have was earned in the aftermath of throwing molotov cocktails into a bar full of police and rioting for 6 days with yippies, black panthers, and communists joining by our side in the fight. So don't tell us that our ANGER will yield little results. It's our anger and our creativity that has kept us alive all these years not whining and begging and pleading with bigots.

[Cali_Democrat]

111. My point is that we don't need vitriolic anger....we need calm dialog.

Directing "anger" toward a particular group of people is not helpful IMO. I saw MANY threads on DU questioning why blacks voted for prop 8, yet I saw few threads questioning why a majority of Hispanics also voted for it or why half of whites voted for it. We need to address the reasons in a calm manner. Blacks are only 7% of the electorate in California and singling them out is just silly.

The black and Hispanic communities are VERY important constituencies within the Democratic Party and singling them out for your "anger" in not helpful IMO and it may drive some away from our party. We don't need that.

BTW, a lot of this prop 8 demographic information is based on a single exit poll. We may not know the true demographic numbers for a few weeks so let's just calm down a little bit.

[mitchtv]

80. OH Jesus now the blacks are the victims

what a lot of shit

[Cali_Democrat]

92. Black people in California are infact the victims of hatred from some in the the GLBT community....

because of prop 8. On Bill Maher's show tonight someone was talking about how blacks who were marching with protesters against prop 8 were called niggers. Those blacks were gay and they were being attacked by folks in their own community. It's sad.

This happened yesterday at a "no on 8 rally" in LA. Can you explain that?

It seems to me that after reading this board and listening to what folks in the GLBT community are saying, there is an extremely disturbing amount of hatred directed toward blacks because of the passage of prop 8.

Never mind that almost half of whites supported it and a majority of Hispanics also supported it. Yet you don't see that much anger directed toward them.

It's totally ridiculous to think that 7% of the electorate can impose their will on the other 93%. It's RIDICULOUS.

Look, the GLBT community are the victims of H8 and I feel for them, I really do. But scapegoating blacks is not the answer and it will not lead to the advancement of Gay Rights.

[readmoreoften]

126. Not that there aren't gay racists, but that sounds over the top to happen at a LGBT rally.

Yeah, and some black folks gaybash "fags"? It's disgusting that any LGBT person would use racial slurs. But frankly, I don't believe your story because if white gays called black gays "niggers" at a it actually happened it would've been a huge blow-up in the gay community with people freaking out on those people. Maybe I haven't heard about this yet, but if it happened they would've been drawn and quartered and I'd do it myself if nobody else has.

What? Were they some strange fringe group of gay nazi skinheads who felt emboldened to yell slurs in public? Was it a skit from a San Francisco performance troupe?

I'll believe it when I get the explanation from the gay community, not some flame feeding talk-show host.

And I still don't understand how that gives 70% of African Americans, 53% of Latinos, and 49% of gays and whites a pass.

[Raineyb]

129. Two links to refute your assertion of the post Prop 8 racism being bullshit.

http://www.pamshouseblend.com/showDiary.do?diaryId=8077

How about this?
http://rodonline.typepad.com/rodonline/2008/11/n-word-and-raci.html

Or are you just so insistent in the righteousness of your anger that you're going to ignore her too?

Oh, and that "fame seeking talk show host" as you've derisively described Ms. Chadeya does a show that covers the black community. She's not a Mika twit from the MSM.

Regards

[kevinbgoode]

56. Well, if their percentage of "YES" votes had been lower,

there wouldnt' be much to blame now, would there? You can't change the fact. Their percentage was much higher than the nearest ethnic group voting.

Is there some reason you believe demographic statistics should be ignored in polling results if they indicate something you don't want to know?

[kwassa]

62. The total number of black voters was small, so why are you attacking them?

Their votes didn't decide anything, pro or con.

Where is your outrage at the whites who voted for this???????

Your stance is bullshit, and more than a little racist.

[Cali_Democrat]

63. And if the percentage of hispanic "YES" votes had been lower,

there wouldn't be much to blame now, would there? You can't change that fact.

And if the percentage of white "YES" votes had been lower, there wouldn't be much to blame now, would there? You can't change that fact.


And if the percentage of Asian "YES" votes had been lower, there wouldn't be much to blame now, would there? You can't change that fact.

But we must blame blacks even though they make up 7% of the electorate in California. Let's not blame the other 93% or everyone who voted no. Nope. Let's blame those black people who make up a tiny tiny portion of the electorate. :eyes:

[Bluebear]

70. Everything else aside, 7% of the electorate is not "tiny tiny". nt

[Cali_Democrat]

72. Compared to the other 93% it is

[Bluebear]

75. Only if you break up statistics by "black" and "non-black". Just saying 7% is not insignificant.

[Cali_Democrat]

79. No group is insignificant

Every vote counts, but the other the major groups make up a much larger share of the electorate than blacks.

Hell....Asians are 2x as large as the black electorate.

The Hispanic and white electorates are almost 6x greater each.

For some folks so place almost all of the blame on blacks is really annoying to me.

[CreekDog]

123. you are using race AGAIN, you insist on making race the primary issue

i thought the issue was Prop. 8 and the people that supported it, not the incidental aspect of which race they belonged to (since they belonged to all races).

you continually see to call out the black community. you have no care or concern that this is not fair and no concern that it isn't even constructive to the goals you support.

[entanglement]

101. Not to mention that the mostly white Mormon church bankrolled the entire sordid scheme

[NorthCarolina]

42. Who'da thunk that revoking the fundamental civil rights of a minority group

would one day appear as a simple ballot initiative somewhere in America?? :wtf:

[IsItJustMe]

50. Yep, I think you got it right. Me thinks it's back door racism. Always easy to go after minorities

[mitchtv]

81. Poor victims

[annabanana]

54. The numbers make no sense to blame black voters for the passage of 8.

Not when they're parsed out...

[MellowDem]

65. No...

But it does raise the question of why, as an ethnic group, they voted 70-30 for it. Blacks and Hispanics are a large (and in one case a growing) part of the Democratic base. If they are voting against progressive policies (and in this case they did, overall), then we should discuss the causes and why that is and what can be done to address it. Same with any other ethnic or religious group.

[mitchtv]

82. if this is the new majority

count me out

[Liberal_in_LA]

60. We weren't done basking in the joy of the Obama victory when this ethnic crap started. ugh.

[mitchtv]

83. no joy here

no celebration, just hate and resentment

[ellius101]

73. Geez everyone! Get a fucking grip here...

Gays are not blaming African Americans for the passing of prop 8! Everyone knows bottom line its the churches who did this.
At the same time though they are wondering why such a large percentage of African Americans voted to take away their civil rights. Gays have been fighting for the civil rights of African Americans for years and are wondering why "the favor" wasnt reversed. Thats it!! Imagine if a gay President had been elected with the help of African Americans and on that same ballot African Americans were told they couldnt marry anymore. And from the exit polls it became known that 70 percent of gays had voted to take away their rights? I think African Americans would be pissed off too, and rightfully so.
Or if it were Jews that helped elected a Gay president and on the same ballot had their rights stripped away. Or Catholics. Or any group that had their rights taken away. Gays are pissed right now. They feel betrayed. Understandably so. Quit trying to palm their anger off as racism.

[QC]

78. Thank you for trying to bring some sanity to the discussion.

It's probably in vain, though--until the indignation junkies tire themselves out there will be little to no rational discussion of this issue.

[magellan]

99. Thank you. I don't know why some are being so defensive about it

The number of blacks who voted one way or another on Prop 8 is irrelevant. It's the fact that 70% of them voted to ban same-sex marriage that's disturbing and disappointing.

I heard this matter discussed on Rachel's show tonight, much as you write, and even before that I understood the hurt on the part of gays about the percentage of black voters who supported Prop 8. Rachel's guest, Melissa Harris-Lacewell (Associate Professor of Politics and African American Studies at Princeton), said there's an equivalence between black civil rights and gay civil rights.

She then cited Loving v. Virginia (SCOTUS, 1967), which ended legal restrictions against interracial marriages in the US.

Either memories are short or the voters were too young to understand it wasn't that long ago when their right to marry whoever they loved was denied.

[lumberjack_jeff]

85. Stinkin People's front of Judea. I fart in their general direction. n/t

[apocalypsehow]

93. Si esset vita nostra emendata, non vero esset.

And that's all I've got say about that.

[Phredicles]

96. This whole black vs. gay thing is making me extremely sad,

and I'm neither. I don't know what the answer is. I just know I'm not finding it anywhere around here.

Some of my students are gay. My heart aches seeing their faces since Wednesday morning.

On the other hand, singling out the African American community for this horrible result strikes me as short-sighted, incendiary, and downright dangerous. At the very least, it won't right the enormous wrong that's just happened. And there's worthy targets for anger in this.

Any time members of two historically oppressed groups come into conflict with one another, the only winners are the oppressors. I'm sure there's some Rethug shiot-stirring at work here. But I don't think that's the only source of the stirred shit. And, um, I wish it would stop.

[AntiFascist]

97. People are stirring up hatred...

likely the same that stir up hatred against jews. You know the type. That's not to say that some members of a group don't deserve criticism, but hatred directed against any group as a whole is simply WRONG.

[yurbud]

100. I think the division is being manufactured. don't believe everything PR shills post here

[SoCalDem]

103. 816,220 people who voted for president, did not cast a vote on Prop 8

and the measure was "approved" by 504,126 votes..

Of course our totals will not be final for weeks, because it take a long time, so the difference may be less than that or more..

Our ballot measures are often put there by out-of-state busybodies with shitloads of money..and the wording is so convoluted, that often when you vote NO, you are actually approving something,...and many times, people don't even bother to vote on any of the props

[Behind the Aegis]

104. That's what happens when one only sees "black and white" and no shades of grey.

A perfect example is the lousy example you used.

[Name removed]

105. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[bluedawg12]

127. Proposition 8 exposed homophobia here

It's clear you don't give a sh*t about gay rights and have no intention of working for a coalition.

Go peddle that hateful f*cking picture somewhere else.

http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-gayblack8-2008nov08,0,1601616.story

>>He understands that there are differences between the civil rights battles of blacks and gays: For one thing, he notes, gay people have a much easier time blending in. Still, he says, he thinks it's sad that "people do not equate one civil rights struggle with another."

Many black voters didn't see it that way.

"I was born black. I can't change that," said Culver City resident Bilson Davis, 57, who voted for Proposition 8. "They weren't born gay; they chose it," he added, reflecting a commonly held belief that many researchers dispute.


Although many of the state's black political leaders spoke out against Proposition 8, an exit poll of California voters showed that black voters favored the measure by a ratio of more than 2 to 1. Not only was the black vote weighted heavily in favor of Proposition 8, but black turnout -- spurred by Barack Obama's historic campaign for president -- was unusually large, with African Americans making up roughly 10% of the state electorate.

The exit poll didn't ask voters why they voted the way they did. But Madison Shockley, pastor of Pilgrim United Church of Christ in Carlsbad and among the roughly one-third of blacks who opposed Proposition 8, said the vote was understandable. "Black folks go to church, probably more than the Caucasian population, and the churches they go to tend to be very traditional."

Los Angeles resident Christopher Hill, 50, said he was motivated by religion in supporting Proposition 8. Civil rights, he said, "are about getting a job, employment."

Gay marriage, he said, is not: "It's an abomination against God."<<

[plaintiff]

166. I supported & voted for Obama but he is no friend to the LGBT community.

In fact he's borderline fundy. It's just that McCain was way worse.

[intheflow]

168. Obama is in no way a fundie.

Being Christian is not synonymous with fundamentalism.

[dsc]

128. Yea all us racist gays who voted 70 to 27 for a black man for President

who didn't even support full civil rights for us.

[iamthebandfanman]

113. all will be resolved.

peoples feelings will get hurt. the world will seemingly end.
but after the fire is over, we will stand here yet again united.

[mitchtv]

142. LIke fuck it will

I just lovvvvvvvve to hear strates tell me how I will feel and what's right for Gay Americans

[renie408]

122. 'split to the death'?? Drama much?

No, it isn't a split to the death. It is a problem between two factions of the Democratic Party that needs to be hashed out. Ignoring it isn't going to make it go away. The thing isn't that people shouldn't argue about it, the thing is that they should argue rationally.
Instead of screaming about BLACK people voting for a ban on gay marriage, they should start asking WHY are black people inclined to vote against gay marriage?

[formercia]

132. Troll fest

People need to chill the fuck out.

[kster]

134. I'm thinking the ballot should have

said what it meant, "yes on same sex marriage" or "no on same sex marriage" would make more sense, "yes on eight" or "no on eight" there is way way to many ways for the opposition to get a person who would have voted for same sex marriage to believe s/he voted for it, while actual s/he would be voting against it.

There were people on the DU that wanted to vote for same sex marriage that had to ask if they should vote yes or no.


I think that was the biggest problem with this vote.



My two cents, but I don't have a dog in the fight.

[chowder66]

141. Re-set......

"Even No on 8 supporters have admitted that their camp was too complacent, arrogant and far to unorganized. I told a friend the day after the election, that I thought the arguments needed to be much stronger to answer the lingering questions Prop 8 boosters had leveled, disingenuously or not."


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/raymond-leon-roker/stop-blaming-californias_b_142018.html

[mitchtv]

144. Yup it's our fault

those dammned Gays

[chowder66]

160. You took that wrong...I think...

I am a straight white woman who lives in L.A. that voted against prop 8.

I have heard a number of issues regarding this.

One) a gay friend told me he was concerned because there was a radio show talking about it prior to election day which was confusing people. They were saying something to the effect that by not passing Prop 8 it would allow adult men to marry children and a whole host of other bullshit arguments. Unfortunately he couldn't remember the station. He ran across it accidentally.

Two) I also have heard several times over that when it comes to the black vote, while 70% voted to pass it, they only make up 7 to 10% of the electoral vote. While this is a concern in regards to the ratio, it is a clear indication that something seems off. Whether it be a religious based decision or misinformation, etc. At least we all can see where some work can be done to correct this but there is a lot of work to do regarding all groups and then there is the battle with the Mormon church.

Three) Propositions and measures are written to confuse people. Unless people are paying attention to the issue(s) and dig deep to weed out the crap then unfortunately they may think they are voting one way but are actually voting another way.

Four) It seems that at least some supporters are coming out and trying to understand what they could have done better to help. The supporters were not all gay. Some were heterosexual as well. The fact that they can see where they can boost efforts is important. It's one step closer to a solution without pointing the finger at some particular segment of the population.

Five) Votes are still being counted, however, I do not know if and how this will effect everything with the concession. (Please don't go after me on this since I haven't looked into it just yet).

In all, I think defining where things went wrong and coming up with a solution or a list of actions resulting in solutions is the best way to move forward. Please know that I am just as blown away at this outcome as the next person but I see it as an opportunity at this point to change hearts and minds. I am deeply pained that this passed but I am trying to channel my disappointment into helping to correct it.

[libodem]

148. We just need to do the 'Yes' dance together

and everything will be OK. I admit to being conspiracy influenced but when rifts happen I think it's prudent to look to outside fomenter's. I'm sure some Freeper Dick somewhere is laughing his ass off at DU having a squabble within the factions. (Now, since I'm such a good egg but a poor cutter and paster...some friendly sort should import the 'Yes' dance from Youtube so we can all see it and dance along) (I'm not kidding)

[libodem]

149. .

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eyqUj3PGHv4

[yardwork]

151. I want to say that this thread and many others have hurt me to the core.

There have been a lot of calm, thoughtful posts and threads here from gay people that sank like stones over the past week. Hardly anybody bothered to post on them or acknowledge that any gay people were not racists. I posted a thread noting that the exit poll might not be accurate. I posted another thread talking about how we need to move beyond who voted and move into why and what we can do about it to promote human rights for all. They both sank like stones. Instead, dozens of DUers have posted threads complaining about how bigoted gay people are being here on DU. Not one of those posters - some of them very longtime DUers - bothered to post on my thread or any of the other threads appealing for calm. Nobody has acknowledged that the vast majority of posts from gay DUers have spoken out against racism.

Instead we get posts like this. "We" are at fault because "we" are racists.

I'm a long-time DUer who supported Barack Obama for president and often speaks out against racism. I'm also gay. The things I've read here against gay people this week have hurt me to the core.

The worst thing in the world is to be called a racist. A lot of longtime DUers have done exactly that, calling out me and every other gay DUer as racists without a shred of evidence. Suddenly the words of anonymous bloggers and anonymous people in crowds are applied to every gay DUer.

How is this not just as bad as claiming that an exit poll "proves" that all African Americans are bigots? I've never said such a thing. Neither have the vast majority of gay DUers. Yet we are being trashed all over this forum

Had more rights taken away on Tuesday. Called racists on Thursday.

[Skittles]

167. wonderful post, yardwork

should be its own thread :thumbsup: