Not every Mormon agreed with Prop 8

[npk]

Despite the fact that the Mormon Church was a big supporter of Proposition 8 in California, not every person of that faith agreed with that stance. I just hope that people can differentiate between the two. There are several people of Mormon faith in my area, and they vehemently disagreed with the churches stance on the issue. But I don't believe those people should be blamed or have to leave the church.

[rawtribe]

1. All 0.002% of them.

Thanks for the info.

[IndianaJones]

3. thats a little harsh. nt.

[rawtribe]

7. That was the point. n/t

[npk]

16. I repect your opinion, however...

Many people are lumping all members of the Mormon church together. Saying that the faith is based in hate and the people that attend are spreading hate. I am not a Mormon, but my boss happens to be a Mormon. I was at work the other day and we were speaking about prop 8 and he told me how much it disgusted him to see how the church reacted to the proposition on the ballot in California. He doesn't want to leave the church but he has considered it. I don't feel he should leave the church. I am not here to defend religion, just stating that I don't believe everyone that attends a Mormon church should be considered as someone who hates gay and lesbian people. Some people, not on this board, were making jokes and slogans, such as "Mormon are Morons." I just don't agree with some of the demonizing of the people that attend the church as some of what I have read and heard.

[GreenFiles]

2. You'll always have the exceptional cases.

They are free to leave the church. I think that's their only logical option.

If they stay the support the message.

[knowledgeispwr]

4. Thinking rationally, people should know that without being told.

Unfortunately, a number of people who are rightfully upset are focusing more on lashing out instead of trying to figure out how to solve the problem.

[IndianaJones]

5. who is lashing out? its a freaking message board. nt.

[Bluebear]

9. 'lashing out'?

[Kutjara]

6. Not every German was a Nazi, not every Southerner...

...belonged to the KKK, not every man believed women shouldn't vote, but the results were precisely the same as if every one of them was/did. Sorry, but I'm afraid that if you identify with a particular creed, then you're pretty much stuck with what that creed believes as a whole, regardless of whether you personally agree with it or not. And, yes, I think leaving the church is exactly what they should do.

[Winnipegosis]

14. Mormons...

"Sorry, but I'm afraid that if you identify with a particular creed, then you're pretty much stuck with what that creed believes as a whole, regardless of whether you personally agree with it or not. And, yes, I think leaving the church is exactly what they should do."

Nonsense. As an atheist I know there are a lot of crazy-ass MFs who identify as atheists, but don't expect me to suffer from their words or actions.

[Kutjara]

22. Not really the same.

Atheism isn't belief; rather it is the absence of belief. When one is an atheist (as I am), one simply doesn't believe in a Divine Creator/Judge/Overlord. In that sense, atheism is politically neutral (despite what the fundies would have you believe). Yes, you can be an asshole atheist, but your assholery has nothing to do with your lack of belief. You're simply an asshole.

If, on the other hand, you subscribe to a faith (or political philosophy) that advocates a particular point of view, then it's reasonable to argue that you support that view. If you don't, then why the hell are you a member of the faith/philosophy?

To put it another way, the atheists you've met might be assholes, but are you trying to say that their assholeishness was part of "atheist philosophy?"

[Winnipegosis]

28. I beg to differ.

Atheism is not necessarily "politically neutral."

Atheists are people too.

[Kutjara]

31. Yes, in the sense that all people are political,...

I agree. But that doesn't really address the point I was making.

[Winnipegosis]

36. I know

Then again, your post to me was my response to the "Nazi" post.

There are plenty of Catholics who disagree with some aspects of Catholicism etc., but still call themselves catholic, or whatever.

[Kutjara]

44. It rather depends on the specific aspect.

I might, for example, disagree with the doctrine that (pre Vatican 2) I shouldn't eat meat on Friday, yet still consider myself a Catholic. The church itself might even forgive such an infidelity (as long as I was sure to confess it once a week). But, if I were to deny the virginal status of Jesus' mother, or claim that the eucharist was not in fact the actual flesh of Christ, I'd have to find myself another religion in pretty short order.

Similarly, while a Mormon might quibble with some of the more outlandish teachings of Joseph Smith and yet still consider themselves to be authentically Mormon, it seems strange that they could disagree with the allegedly official views of the church concerning marriage and yet still consider themselves members of the church in good standing.

[Winnipegosis]

8. Mormons

"But I don't believe those people should be blamed or have to leave the church. "

Well, of course not.

[regnaD kciN]

15. While they shouldn't have to leave the church...

...I think they owe it to themselves, if they disagree with the church on this issue, to reconsider their financial support. As I understand it, the standard for "good" Mormons is to give 10% of their income to the church, plus any additional to qualify as a "donation" (the first 10% doesn't qualify as a donation, but as a religious duty). Quite a bit of that money went to the Prop8 campaign in California so, if you're a Mormon who doesn't agree with the church on that matter, but were still tithing faithfully and possibly tossing in a donation on top of that, your money was going to scare ads telling parents that, if they didn't pass Prop8, their children would be forced to attend gay weddings, etc. In essence, your money helped pass this initiative, and you share, if only a little, in the guilt.

[Winnipegosis]

19. You make a good point.

When it comes to guilt, though, there's a lot of that to go around for all faiths, or non-faiths for that matter.

[ColbertWatcher]

10. And one of those people was Steve Young ...

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/blogs/sfgate/detail?blogid=14&entry_id=32216

[LeftCoast]

12. Officially he made not statement though

and then publicly said he wasn't making a statment when people inferred that he was against Prop H8

[ColbertWatcher]

34. What about his wife? She's still vocally against it, isn't she? n/t

[LeftCoast]

37. Yes...she was great

Too bad her husband had to fuck up a good thing.

[ColbertWatcher]

38. If he really opposed Prop Hate ...

... he should have remained silent. Especially if he was going to collapse at the first sign of someone challenging him.

[Sebastian Doyle]

45. If Steve opposes Prop H8, he should stop tithing to the Church.

He's not only a rich ex football star, but a descendant of old Brigham himself. If he didn't cough up the money, it would be noticed.

[LeftyMom]

11. Maybe it's time they stopped funding a hate group then.

:shrug:

[still_one]

13. I am sure you are right, and I also know not every Catholic agreed with it either

The problem is that when religion trys to impose itself into government, that is where the problem is

[regnaD kciN]

18. There's been a long tradition in American (Roman) Catholicism...

...of, when the Church took an objectionable position, reducing or even stopping your contribution to the collection plate. I can specifically think of one instance here in Seattle (when the Vatican tried to replace the liberal Archbishop Hunthausen with an ultraconservative), where such action by local parishioners forced Rome to back down.

I have yet to hear of any such action among more-progressive Mormons.

[moobu2]

17. As long as they belong to that church, they support Prop 8

[Sanctified]

20. Even if every Mormon agreed with Prop 8 they only constitute 2% of the population in California.

Hardly enough to single-handedly push it through like some on this forum would lead you to believe.

[LeftCoast]

21. They lead the charge both symbolicly and financially

The Yes on 8 campaign was funded primarily through the actions of the mormon church and so while they may only constitute a small percentage of the CA population, they bear an inordinately large amount of the blame.

[Sanctified]

23. They raised something like $8 million of the $60 million that was raised by both sides.

It was hardly funded solely by the Mormon church.

[LeftCoast]

26. Why are you adding both pro and con funding numbers?

FAIL

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has been a major player in organizing and funding a proposition to outlaw same-sex marriage in California. As of Oct. 28, Mormons accounted for 46 percent of the total support for Proposition 8, according to the Mormon-run Web site MormonsFor8.com.

NPR

[Sanctified]

30. No on 8 raised more money than yes but it still passed.

And a majority of people on these forums are trying to scapegoat a small 2% population as the reason it passed instead of calling it how it is and saying that the vast majority of Californians who vote liberal are bigots.

[LeftCoast]

32. They bear partial responsibility for this. Why are you trying to defend them?

Are you saying they did nothing wrong here? They funded nearly HALF the money used to take away MY civil rights!

[Sanctified]

33. I did not say they did nothing wrong.

I am saying that they are not the ones who voted in a majority to take away your civil rights, maybe you should be this pissed off at some of the other groups who voted as a majority who helped to pass this.

[LeftCoast]

35. Who said I'm not?

I'm also pissed off at the Catholic church who worked with the Mormon church in passing this travesty. I'm also pissed off at every single one of the voters...but no fucking mormon missionary better ever come to my door because all they're going to get is my boot to their ass.

[Sanctified]

41. What about blacks and latinos who voted as a majority in favor of prop 8?

Are you going to go put your foot in their asses too?

[npk]

27. I hate what the Mormon church did, vehemently.

But I do not hate the people that attend their churches. I'm not saying you do hate them, and I understand your anger 100%. I feel that many of the people that attend the Mormon church were caught in a no win situation. It is unfortunate how hateful religion can be, but I do try to understand not all those people of Mormon faith are hateful, even when their church takes an awful stance.

[LeftCoast]

29. I would never belong to an organization that supported bigotry

I don't hate them, but their church has declared war against me.

[npk]

40. Believe me Leftcoast I agree with you.

I am so sorry for what happened. If I could change the vote with the snap of my fingers I would. I hate the churches stance on this issue, but I know some good people who belong to the Mormon church and they hate what has been going on very strongly. I guess we will see how this plays out.

[kevinbgoode]

24. And the demonstrations have not been in front of their houses -

they've been in front of the temples and the hierarchy which, for YEARS, have been funding measures to challenge my constitutional rights on every level.

And no, those people don't have to leave the church - unless, of course the Church leadership kicks them out. Churches aren't structured with a constitution protecting the rights of every member - they are much more like authoritarian mini-societies.

I just cannot stand by and let someone else's chosen "religious" belief, especially one which dictates and teaches the abrogation of other citizen's fundamental rights as necessary for their worship - practice religious tyranny over MY life. I will NOT be beholden to the Mormon Church - nor the sexual predator laden Catholic Church, nor the perpetual bearers of false witness televangelist empire.

You've been endowed with a constitutional right to believe in this Church. Now, thanks to that same church, the rest of us now understand that WE can take that right away from you by nothing more than a fear/smear campaign and a 50+1% popular vote.

[dorkulon]

25. Of course that's true.

And individual Mormons aren't any more responsible for the actions of other Mormons than Catholics, Protestants or Muslims, etc. are for their fellow worshippers.

And the LDS church isn't any more full of homophobic bigots than any other church, really. Nor is their religion any sillier; it's just a bit more recent, so the silliness is less obscured by time.

The problem for me is they're all nuts, as far as I can see. Not just Mormons, the whole lot of religious people. To feel so strongly about stopping other people, people you don't know and will never meet, from living their lives as they wish, at no expense to you--that seems crazy to me, and it's a craziness that seems to go along with intense religious belief. That kind of moralistic imposition of lifestyle is the product of a doubtless mind, a mind to which doubt is anathema. We need more doubt, not less, in this world.

[Jed Dilligan]

39. They are the guiltiest of all if they do not speak out.

[npk]

42. I agree.

Many of my friends, including my boss, who attend the Church of Latter Day Saints, did speak out against Prop 8. Unfortunately it wasn't enough.

[Jed Dilligan]

43. Isn't this how sects form?

[stray cat]

46. But its so easy to lump people into a group and call them evil

and still praise oneself as the most tolerant individuals who ever lived.

[jonnyblitz]

48. I don't understand what is so noble about tolerating a hate group

just because it considers itself a "religion" and a few of it's members might be nice. what a completely screwed up way of thinking.

[distantearlywarning]

47. I have two close Mormon friends.

They are more liberal than anyone else at my dinner table on Friday nights. Both of them indicated to me that they strongly disapproved of their church's support of Prop 8 in California, and they haven't been shy about expressing their views to other members of their congregation here in Pennsylvania. One of them additionally indicated to me that he would have been the first one out there on the street in front of the temple with a protest sign if they were living in Salt Lake City.

You just never can tell what a person is like just by looking at them..