I dropped this note into the collection basket at my Mom's church today:

[begin_within]

"Your policy of hate is costing you. Because of your active and expensive support of Proposition 8, we are taking all money we would have donated to you, from now on, and donating it to gay and lesbian rights groups, particularly those who fight for equal rights. For the rest of our lives, we will drop an empty envelope in the basket each week, with "Prop 8 fund" written on it, as a reminder of your hate-filled policy."

I take my Mom to mass at the Catholic church each Sunday because she's 90 and can't get there on her own. I quit going myself a long time ago. I used one of those "visitor" envelopes.

[EFerrari]

1. That's a really good idea. n/t

[nyc 4 Biden]

77. Is it?

"active and expensive support of Proposition 8"

I thought it was the Mormon Church that lead the fight against Prop 8. :shrug:

[Caliman73]

81. The Knights of Columbus, a Catholic organization also gave heavily

The Catholic church, though not as high profile as the Mormons, did contribute to the passage of 8. I think that it is an appropriate statement. I went to Catholic school from 2nd grade through high school. I remember the teachings on homosexuality. Hate the sin but not the sinner is a very slippery slope for us Catholics. It breeds intolerance and exclusion.

[Moody]

83. dumb question, what exactly is it that the Knights of Columbus do?

[northofdenali]

85. Straight (rofl) from their own website:

http://www.kofc.org/un/eb/en/about/index.html

http://www.kofc.org/un/cmf/resources/proposition8.pdf

Ugly, ugly, ugly. :mad:

[Caliman73]

87. The Knights

are a fraternal and charitable organization within the church. They do a great deal of community service and tend to be involved in parish activities such as fund raising and maintenance. They promote charity, unity, brotherhood, and patriotism. Typically the knights are comprised of older men, but they take men from 18 up into the organization. They aren't typically bad people, but they can be very dogmatic in their approach to things. I just think the Knights and the church are dead wrong on this issue.

[ironflange]

97. This is a good place for this pic

I was amused by that droll juxtaposition for years, and one day last spring finally got off my ass and took a photo. Good thing, too, because the KFC shut down a couple of days later.

[spiritual_gunfighter]

117. and if you want to have a 5 dollar wedding reception

you go to the Knights of Columbus hall.

[whistler162]

99. Well... you know those two words "under god" in the Pledge?

That is what the KoC did!

[Throckmorton]

119. Well, at my church, they mostly get drunk at meetings

and wear feathered hats on their head when the bishop stops in.

Needless to say, despite repeated offers, I haven't seen fit to join up just yet.

[crim son]

95. With all due respect, Catholics are a huge opponent

of gay marriage. They're into accepting the sinner but not the sin, and to condone gay marriage would be to condone the sin. The Pople has established a new "psychological test" for prospective clerics, designed to weed out the gays. I'm sorry to say it, being raised Catholic, but the blame can surely be shared by people of my religion. And I hope it weighs heavily.

[HopeFor2006]

2. That should get their attention!

:bounce:

[Heidi]

3. I :heart: you.

:kick:

[lonestarnot]

4. Bob Weaver! You go!

:applause:

[cliffordu]

5. Excellent. That will get their attention...

[Fridays Child]

Wow. You've actually inspired me to go to church.

:thumbsup:

[VP505]

6. Good idea and well done, perhaps if

more parishioners did that they would get the hint. Now is a good time to start confronting those churches that seem to think that they can get involved in political issues and maintain their tax exempt status.

[old mark]

7. Recommended - Great! nt

[peacetalksforall]

8. I can't think of a better idea to send the message. Legal, most direct route,

to the point.

Churches cannot continue to appeal to only a small portion of their parish/congregation.

[JVS]

9. No biggie for them. They'll probably figure out that it was the same person who told them,,,

that they were never donating again anyway.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x4055727

[begin_within]

15. yes, but at least it will be a constant reminder

[JVS]

20. true

[begin_within]

23. or for some volunteer that sorts and counts the collections. Maybe

they'll pass it along to the auxiliary Bishop, who lives at that Church and was very vocal, appearing on TV about it.

[cboy4]

29. We can always count on you Deb.

on edit, fix link

[spoony]

51. Oh shit, there it is, thanks JVS

Lol

[apocalypsehow]

114. LOL! Between that, and T in T's fairy tales, I can barely keep up with all the poseurs.

:rofl:

:thumbsup:

[NanceGreggs]

10. Excellent!

:kick: & REC'D!!!

[Fridays Child]

11. This idea needs to go viral.

[The Backlash Cometh]

12. kick

[DrZeeLit]

13. I hope you don't mind. I just copied and pasted this in a letter to my son. We are both collapsed

Catholics (a few steps past "lapsed").
BUT....
We have friends, young and old, who still go to church.
And enough of them are politically hip to the right side of this issue.
Especially my son's father, with whom I have a good relationship despite divorce.
I know he's a liberal Dem.
So, my son is sending this onward.

ALSO..... All of us are alums of Catholic colleges. My ex was on the faculty and I am a 3 degree grad, and our son is also a grad.
We all get TONS of mail begging for donations.

Colleges are HURTING for cash right now.

I'm sending this message the next time I get a donation plea plus envelope in the mail.

Thank you so much.

When in doubt, hit them with $/-$.

[begin_within]

22. I don't mind. I call myself a recovered Catholic.

[geek_sabre]

14. are you the same one who left the note earlier?

was it effective before when you threatened to send your nondonations to pro-choice groups??

[begin_within]

16. Yes and no.

I did, and it was not effective, because I was the only one. If 50% of the congregation did this, then they'd listen.

[ben_meyers]

17. How did that work out for you last time?

Did they change anything?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x4055727

I know that Gladnik had FUn with it though.

[begin_within]

21. No, because I was the only one. If 50% of the congregation did it, then they'd listen.

At least by this they realize that not 100% of the people that go there are sheepish compliant followers.

[LonelyLRLiberal]

57. Are you suggesting to do nothing?

Any protest is good, no matter how small.

[Webster Green]

18. Perfect!

That is exactly what they need to hear. :thumbsup:

[ooglymoogly]

19. excellent kr nt

[Sanctified]

24. Did you actually use to give? n/t

[begin_within]

28. My Mom's money, just a few bucks each week in cash, not in an envelope

She's been going to church for over 80 years and is not going to stop going, but I'm not going to remind her about the money any more.

[Sanctified]

30. Does she know that she will no longer be giving? n/t

[begin_within]

31. I will of course give her the choice, it's her money, she can throw it down the drain if

she wants to. I'll ask her before we go next week what does she want to donate, and whatever she says I'll do, using her money of course. She did vote No on 8, she told me that.

[Mesteryo]

35. throwing it down the drain?

That's your opinion. It's not a waste of money just because you say so.

[Name removed]

41. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Mesteryo]

42. typical anti-Catholic bs...

For one most priests don't abuse children. I wouldn't call the ones who do "good priests.

Which shows how little you know.

The money from the collection goes to the individual church not the main diocese.

My priest didn't condemn gay people or molest children.

A percentage of our collection goes to funding a local food bank. How do you help your fellow man besides bitching?

[begin_within]

62. The main diocese DOES collect an assessment from each parish - a percentage of their total take.

[nini]

64. NOT if the parish is poor

depends on the parish. The very poor parishes are recipients of funds from the better off parishes to help sustain them.


I think what you did is great but I would not recommend this to anyone who doesn't know about the leadership at a particular parish. There are plenty of priests out there who don't push all this crap and really are doing good work.

[snake in the grass]

79. I guess I stepped on someone's toes, huh?

After I read your comment, I sat down to write you a list of the things I do to help my fellow man, but, upon second thought, decided that it would be better to leave that subject alone, for it would give the appearance of boasting. Suffice it to say that after I finished med school in Munich ten years ago, I have professionally and personally helped many people. Furthermore, the topic is not what I do, but rather what the RCC does. The way crimes of pedophilia, perpetrated by the priesthood, are swept under the rug is offensive and contemptible. Don't waste your time denying it or giving some justification; I don't want to hear it. The use of the term 'good priests' was ironic as these criminals are anything but, and deserve to spend the rest of their miserable lives in jail, along with those who cover for them. Naturally, I don't consider every priest a pedophile. I'm sure there are many good people in the lower echelons who sincerely want to help humankind. What I find disturbing is the way the sick minded are tolerated, the organization behind covering up their crimes by moving them from parish to parish, and the attitude that these things can be solved by merely paying the victims off, all for the sake of retaining power and saving face. If I recall correctly, not too long ago, the Boston RCC had to pay $120 million in damages to 10 alter boys, who were violated by clergymen. Where do you suppose that money came from? (For the sake of accuracy, it came from an insurance policy that the Vatican has taken out to cover damages accrued by acts of pedophilia. Isn't that one special? Which insurance company covers child molestation? Where does the money come from to pay the premiums?)

Even then, it doesn't stop. The victims are sworn to what is, in essence, an omertá as outlined in Crimen Solicitationis.

I challenge you to read this document, which, in part, condemns the VICTIMS of sexual abuse to excommunication if they break their silence.

http://www.usao.edu/~facshaferi/secretarium/crimensollicitationis01.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimen_Sollicitationis

When I read how your priest didn't molest children I was reminded of a former colleague of mine who never had any luck with men. She once praised a new boyfriend because he didn't beat her when he was sober. I think we can all agree that that is the minimum we can expect from a partner, as well as a priest.

By the way, I wasn't bitching. I was mocking. I personally don't care what you believe, but I find it the epitome of hypocrisy that many members of the RCC rage on about the personal decisions of consenting adults, while their own organization is covered in the most despicable filth.

[merh]

98. good post, thank you for writing it

and welcome to DU

[snake in the grass]

104. Thank you.

A few times I have been flamed for expressing my opinion on the subject and my comments were deleted, which I found disappointing. I'm happy this found some resonance.

[merh]

113. We all have had posts deleted.

:)

[snake in the grass]

121. Good to know.

It causes me to reflect on the legitimacy of a given comment (and I know I can be very snarky), but it also makes me paranoid. I have become a DU addict.

[merh]

123. Please don't let a delete make you question the legitimacy of a comment

or a position, it may be very valid. The comment may have been more of an attack on another DUer than it was snark, that is what gets deleted. We are all addicted to DU so again, you are not alone there.

[asthmaticeog]

84. When Bishops systematically swept (and still sweep) molesters under the rug...

... it stopped being a matter of isolated bad individuals and became a systemic infection that no amount of "But but but MYYYYYY priest is a gooooooooooood one" can even hope to overcome. The core is corrupt.

[Mesteryo]

124. I wasn't talking about diocese covering it up..

I was talking about the unfair implication that all priests or even most molest children. It's a stupid thing to say.

[nyc 4 Biden]

78. Not Really.

Many of those collections go to Catholic charities, which is ranked on the top ten best charities list at Charity Navigator. (This means a high percentage of the money donated actually goes to the needy.)

http://www.charitynavigator.org/index.cfm?bay=topten.detail&listid=23

Catholic Charities USA provides strong leadership and support to enhance the work of the local agencies in their efforts to reduce poverty, support families, and empower communities.

ETA: (From Wikipedia): Catholic Charities is the second largest social service provider in the United States and it is only surpassed by the US Federal Government.

[prayin4rain]

25. awesome idea! n/t

[malaise]

26. That's too fabulous

:yourock:

Equal rights for all.

[cboy4]

27. This is EXCELLENT is Bob.

:bounce:

[Mesteryo]

32. bad idea..

The weekly collections go to the individual church not the bishops. Parishioners are the ones hurt if the weekly collection is low.

I think a better idea is to write to the bishop instead of anonymous letters which don't get any further than the usher doing collections.

Also, if you are admitting you aren't really Catholic the fact you don't tithe isn't that shocking.

[bertman]

33. The message goes up the line. When the local churches start to suffer, the bishop may

see the light. But it's more likely he'll feel the heat.

[Mesteryo]

37. doubtfully..

The wealthy churches will always have money so the only ones who'll suffer are working class and poor churches. When that happens the bishops just let us shut down.

[begin_within]

58. The auxiliary bishop of this diocese lives at that parish, and was on TV a lot before the election

There's a chance the note could make it to his desk.

[Mesteryo]

68. oh I didn't know...

It was the bishop's parish and he spoke in favor of prop 8. My priest is pretty liberal.

[Mind_your_head]

118. LOL n/t

[amber_86]

34. Nice I stop giving my money to church a long time ago

When my mother and sister got home from church. They said they never want to go back there again because people are some full of hatred. They are not happy because Obama is our NEW PRESIDENT. I stop going to that church long time ago I really didn't feel right in that church, because I was like the only colored person there. You know when you get that feeling like wow I feel like I am not welcome here, thats how I felt. We do have a church that has a black pastor now, a lot of people weren't happy about it. But they got over it, because he still around. It's pretty sad you know, because they are suppost to act like Christians and they don't. I think Jesus would be sad, not mad just sad. Because Jesus was kind and caring and he didn't care what you did, he just showed them some love.

[Mesteryo]

39. oh please...

You can't tell me every Catholic church is full of just anti-Obama racist people. I'm betting you could easily find a church with many ethnic diversities.

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

36. bob

:applause:

[lunatica]

38. On one of those notes add that you're doing everything you can to

fight their tax exempt status too.

[Mesteryo]

40. Anonymous letters are wimpy bs...

I doubt your cute little note made it past the usher. Instead you should write or go visit the bishop or diocese.

[begin_within]

63. I'm going to write a "cute little note" to the bishop too, reminding him that

his God is watching everything he does and will render judgement on him, when the time comes for that. It will be kind of pointless, though, because this particular bishop is extremely conservative and bullheaded and it would be like writing to Fred Phelps and trying to reason with him. But if I appeal to his fear of God, that might help.

[Mesteryo]

71. you should write the bishop...

That's more effective than dropping anonymous notes.

[NoSheep]

102. Sign NoSheep while you're at it.

[NoSheep]

101. Your comment is inappropriately snarky. I smell your agenda. eom.

[mondo joe]

106. So says "Mesteryo". Way to stand up against anonymity! NT

[krabigirl]

43. right on!!!

[MadMaddie]

44. Great Note!

In that note and for others you should also include the following text:

"I and others are actively pursuing to change the law that churches are tax exempt, if the church wants to participate in the political process then the church should pay taxes"!

[IndianaGreen]

45. Let's also attack their tax exempt status

The Evangelicals were the first ones to throw down the gaunlet on that issue when they openly supported McCain/Palin. Let's strip their tax exemption.

[Mesteryo]

52. won't happen..

No way will Democrats take such an unpopular move as trying to tax churches. That's total ammo for the Republicans to regain Congress.

[IndianaGreen]

65. Is not taxing churches, but not having the rest of us support their income

by giving them a tax exemption. There is no public good in churches. All they do is propagandize their irrational and intolerant views.

[Mesteryo]

70. churches do a lot of public good...

They do charity work, food drives, run hospitals etc. You are really putting your foot in your mouth. Google churches and charity.

Not all churches push intolerance and frankly what you define as irrational is a matter of opinion.

[comrade snarky]

75. Why not give them

The same tax break any other organization would get for it's charitable activities.

Or are churches in a special class?

[Castleman]

80. Run hospitals?

You mean run indoctrination centers and torture chambers.
In some areas, these church run hospital groups are the only medical care for hundreds of miles, and that means no birth control, no abortions, and if you don't like it, too bad. If the child will be deformed, too bad, it's "God's Will", if you cannot carry a child full term, then have miscarriage after miscarriage until you die. Yeah, gotta love those kind and charitable churches.

[Mesteryo]

125. oh please get real...

The Catholic run hospitals here in St. Louis get some of the top ratings in the country so I doubt they'd be described as just torture chambers. They certainly don't just let women die.

[Brazenly Liberal]

46. You're a good son, Bob Weaver

And I LOVE that idea!

[begin_within]

59. Thanks. I have been taking care of her

24/7 since her stroke 4 years ago. We do have a nurse 3 days a week for 6 hours but the rest of the time it's me. My sisters do nothing to help, but they did send some money recently because I asked.

[Duppers]

47. Excellent! nt

.

[yodoobo]

48. This sounds strangely familiar. Didn't someone else do this

a few months ago and post about it here?

Not saying its just a story, but I think someone did almost the exact same thing while taking their mom to church.

eh. If its true, good for you.

[Mesteryo]

49. Did your mother's priest

Advocate against gay marriage? If not why take it out on your mother's church. Your moral superiority is worse than the homophobes..

[spoony]

50. Haven't you done this before?

I seem to recall you posting some note you dumped in the basket.

[begin_within]

60. that was me, and

I gently laid it in the basket.

[Thothmes]

53. What did you mother think of your actions?

Did you tell her, did you show her the note before dropping it in the tray?

[carlyhippy]

54. haha, would you have loved to be a fly on the wall when the church ladies were opening the envelopes

well........isn't that special?!

[ileus]

55. Imagine if we all pulled our 10% church doctrine would still not change.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

56. I'm sure it went in the trash. You should have done it face to face.

[apocalypsehow]

115. For once, you and I are in complete agreement. n/t.

[Jamastiene]

61. Thank you.

Any church that is involved in the hate needs to hear that.

[BrklynLiberal]

66. That is brilliant..

[liberalla]

67. Oh man, that is good!

Thank you!

[Stop Cornyn]

69. You refer to the church's "expensive support of Proposition 8." I aware of (and disgusted by) the

Mormon church's expensive support of Proposition 8, but did the Catholic church also contribute a substantial amount financially to support proposition 8?

[2QT2BSTR8]

72. I do the same thing with the Salvation Army because of their stance against the LGBT community.

And in its place I help with my local Red Cross Disaster Recovery servicing North Texas.

[kwassa]

73. You should lable the empty envelope "Prop 8 Deduction"

[Liberal_in_LA]

74. good for you

[tblue]

76. Good! Get 'em where they live (in the pocketbook)!

[Moody]

82. I love it. Good for you.

[GreenPartyVoter]

86. brilliant

[Mira]

88. THat's exactly how change happens. I'm glad you did that.

[BlancheSplanchnik]

89. what a great idea!!

Hope it (the idea I mean) spreads

[pipi_k]

90. I think that's a good idea, but

I would like to see it done in a more public way...

like people writing letters to their local newspapers for publication on the "Editorials" page where thousands...hundreds of thousands...of others can see it.

I mean, you can stick a note in a collection envelope, but, as someone else said further up, the church ladies opening the envelopes will see it, and likely throw it in the trash

I think people need to get the message across on a larger scale.


:)

[ACTION BASTARD]

91. If I still gave a flying fuck about my catholic church I would do just this.

Though I just could just drop in an envelope every now and then in the "payoff" box.

[southernyankeebelle]

92. Wow

That is a great idea. I will make that suggestion to friends that go a lot.

[fascisthunter]

93. Now That's Something "God" Would Probably Appreciate... awesome!!!

[DaDeacon]

94. Good statement, but do more.

I know this is going to sound odd but have you tried to identify the GLBT supportive parishioners and organize a more direct meeting with local church leadership. Nothing pushes a the church more than "being out of touch" with it's people. Honestly, moving an one parish may seem like nothing but three or four is a news story. Get 3 or 4 you will find support from a 5th and so on . The need to get the church on the side of progress needs to be our next real step. If nothing else to get them from funding an already well oiled anti-gay rights media blitz.

[MasonJar]

96. This idiocy is a direct result of poor education and the derision of science

in USA. It is well-proven that homosexuality is biological. God chose this for some people, if there is a god. So these are blasphemous actions by established churches, as well as ignorant and unChristian.

[NoSheep]

100. I think the confrontational approach, filled with sincerity, is the only one that works.

Imagine the world if we had more like you! Thank you.

[McCamy Taylor]

103. Good idea/ It hurt the Salvation Army. Gays and Lesbians have economic clout.

And there are lots of people who support gay and lesbian rights who have even more economic clout.

[mondo joe]

105. Every church that supported Prop 8 deserves to be bankrupted.

Seriously.

[beac]

107. Too late for an R, but a very enthusiastic KICK!

BRAVO!! :applause:

[Tight_rope]

108. Wonderful...Hit them where it hurts!

[eauclaireliberal]

109. George Calin

In one of his "practical tips" one was "...how to get rid of counterfeit money-put in in the collection plate at church."

[orleans]

110. this is something catholics need to do

too late to recommend this thread. but recommended in spirit!

[cooolandrew]

111. This is probably the best way to change the chuch's mind financially.

[trickyguy]

112. Used the same technique against the Salvation Army - another hateful, homophobic group.

They don't think gay people should serve "in the army of Christ".

And yes, they profess to be Christians.

Enough of their bigotry and enough of the Mormon Church and their hateful attitude toward gays.

I don't belong to any church. And for good reason. O8)

[ksimons]

116. I'm not graphically inclined, but if someone is......

... maybe you could create a '20 dollar bill' or similar that is says as much as this and could be a .pdf file uploaded somewhere we could print it and do the same but putting it in the envelope. It should probably look enough like real money to not show through the envelope, but the message could be what the poster said.

I like that he did that and would be a great way to spread that thoughtful means of protest around.

Sorry I am not graphic or I would do it.

big K & R if I could - but expired :-))))))

[1]

120. bob, dropping a note into the basket will not work. thoses that need to see the note never will...

your words are a strong statement. but a low level person will crumple your note and toss it away, along with every other empty envelope especially if "prop 8 fund" is written on the outside, before anyone of authority will ever see them.


you need to schedule a meeting with the head of this church. you need to sit down with him and express your exact same words in person. and then each week you need to schedule another meeting to personally deliver your and all of the other "prop 8 fund" empty envelopes that you you organize.

that is the only way they will know. that is the only way the higher ups will get the message.

a bit of a pain, but don't rely on a note in a collection plate ever getting passed on. face to face is the answer. be courteous. be strong. say exactly what you did in your note. then say goodbye.

then the next week two of you say it. the next week four. the next week sixteen. whatever.


it has to be face to face.

[Mind_your_head]

122. You can't be "sure" of that.CW......

....at the VERY LEAST it will plant a thought into the usher who reads the note.

Don't discourage 'bob'.

HEARTFELT messages are all 'good'. Corporate/robotic manipulation....not so much.

on edit: take your pick on whether or not the "note in the basket" was heartfelt or political. To *me* it's pretty clear....and most of this further disucssion (including my own sometimes) is proof of that