An auto industry bailout will not change the fact that they can't compete.

[dorkulon]

It won't change the fact that they have consistently been getting their asses kicked in quality and value by foreign firms.

It won't change the fact that they haven't lifted a finger to improve fuel efficiency.

It won't change the fact that they can't afford their employees' health care costs.

It won't change the fact that they will continue to move jobs out of the U.S.

The big 3, for these and many other reasons, CANNOT COMPETE. A bailout is a losing proposition, only prolonging the agony. I say let them fail. Let Toyota buy up their assets. They know how to make cars in America, and the American dinosaurs don't.

[Deja Q]

1. More like foreign companies want to move forward while Ford sells big trucks and GM sells origami...

I recall that 1968 paper on how GM killed the electric car... I'll have to google it...

And if health care is an issue, take it to their industry - don't piss on one's workers and fellow countryman.

:shrug:

(*Note: Not all US companies are like that; GM is making excuses and it's clear the current owners of Ford forgot what the original CEO, Henry Ford, told them... http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/aso/databank/entries/btford.html )

[DJ13]

2. So throw 3 million Americans out of work just to prove free market fundamentals?

That would be shortsighted and kinda dumb.

[dorkulon]

6. I just think we're prolonging the inevitable.

They will need another bailout, and another, and another. Even in better economic times, these companies were in decline. The gov't might as well hire those workers directly. I'm not a free market fundamentalist, but I'm not for corporate welfare either.

[Sal Minella]

45. Yes, handouts to the workers would be fine with me, since the decline of the companies is no fault

of the workers. Management insists on building vehicles nobody wants to buy, while I know of several people on the waiting list for a Prius.

You'd think the management of these companies would get a clue eventually.

[NashVegas]

106. Shortsightedness Got Us Into This Mess

I remember all too well the union-endorsed SUV caravans to Washington, to fight against better CAFE standards.

Union workers should be out in the streets demanded the resignations of every major executive and board member in Detroit/NY.

[Liberal In Texas]

3. I think ALL companies in the US could compete better if we had Universal Health Care.

[MindPilot]

7. yes, and this could be the watershed moment to make that happen n/t

[dorkulon]

8. I'm with you there. /nt

[proud patriot]

32. I agree

[girl gone mad]

41. Single payer will have to happen for this reason.

I really think it's only a matter of time.

Will Obama have the leadership capabilities to get us there within 8 years or will we have to wait for the health care system to collapse as spectacularly as the banking system has before we get real reform?

[dorkulon]

47. I think Obama is trying to make it happen by default...

there is a single payer option in his plan, and I think the hope is that the majority of people choose this option. It's the best he can do, I think, with this country's knee-jerk reaction against anything remotely "socialist."

[harun]

96. Agreed, single payer is pro-business. The only businesses against it are the insurance companies.

[Idealism]

4. The biggest problem for our automakers is

that they can't compete in foreign countries. The big three has made recent strives, Ford greatest among them, to up the level of quality in their vehicles. Ford is not much differant than Toyota now in that department. The REAL differance is the taxes our automakers pay to try to get into foreign markets. If they want to sell a vehicle in China, for example, they must pay 28%+ in tariffs. Its similiar in most countries that have big markets for cars, they all have crazy high barriers to competition. The U.S. taxes on car imports is less than 3%. Our nation, by their trade policies, encourage imports and the auto industry is just the last vestige of manufactoring we have left. think about it; everything else had the same tariffs Ford, Gm, and Chrysler have- but they just outsourced until we have no jobs left in America. The automakers represents whats left of american manufactoring and they too will go by the wayside, sure as steel mills/textile mills/industrial manufactoring already have unless we raise tariffs. simple as that

[Beregond2]

5. I totally agree.

[live love laugh]

22. So do I. People won't buy American if it's not top quality. nt

[Trajan]

9. Yeah ..... Thats the answer ....

Kill good paying american jobs for the sake of free market dogma ....

There is no other answer, I am sure ....

Let's watch as the snowball rolls down the hill and knocks out 10 times more jobs in the support industry ...

Hey : Come to think of it: ALL workers who get Health Care are a HUGE drag on profits: Let's eliminate those positions too ...

I see the logic of your position: I am going to ask that I and my kids be removed from our health care program at my employer tomorrow ....

:sarcasm:

[dorkulon]

11. No, let's get universal health care, period.

Don't attribute dogmatic positions to me that I have not expressed.

[wuushew]

19. Aren't all business failures sad tragedies though?

I mean 95% of a all small businesses fail within the first year of startup.

What is the objective measure of a vital industry? Is it based on some lobbyist threshold?

[Double T]

10. The BIG 3 need new thinking management.

There is a lot of $$$$ to be made by a company that produces a high mileage reasonably low cost vehicle. Screw BIG oil and build the GD cars; the technology exists to do this NOW!! It would improve the trade deficit, lowers energy prices, produce hundreds of thousands of new jobs and reduces emissions into the air. The automobile 'Manhattan Project' can be done!!!

[Webster Green]

12. They'll take their bailout bucks and build more Hummers..

Because they are fucking idiots! :crazy:

[TomInTib]

13. I just did a quick count on up and down the sidewalk - 25 vehicles, 3 US.

1 Ford Tempo with a joke of a factory paintjob
1 Ford Focus (probably made in Mexico)
1 Harley Davidson Road King

[Kalyke]

26. I just looked out my window.

There are NO foreign cars, other than my husband's German piece of crap (and it is - he'll admit it), on my street.

:shrug:

[TomInTib]

36. Location, location

I am in Tiburon, Marin County, California.

As near as I can figure, I know of only one person who owns an American, every-day car. And he is 70 years old and drives a 4-door Buick.

[Touchdown]

14. The Big 3 are too insular. Break them up.

Remove the pieces from Detroit, and scatter them across the nation, creating new enterprise zones that will foster innovation and a competitive streak.

Split Saturn off into it's own company.
Divide in half the rest of GM. Chevy/Caddillac in one company. Pontiac/Buick in another. Move Buick/Pontiac to California.

Since Chrysler is about to go belly up. Remove them from Detroit and set them up in some other state, such as Missouri, Illinois, or Texas.
Spin Jeep off and merge it with Mercury.

Split Mercury off from Ford.

Japan has 9 auto companies. Some don't sell anything here, but they do compete well in Asia. It's the diversity that keeps them competing and afloat. They are also scattered all over Japan, not just in Yokohama.

Germany has at least 6 auto makers, and they're not centered only in Stuttgart.

Provide Government subsidies to all the split companies until they can get a new line out, and get on their feet. 10 years ought to do it.

Six American auto companies, and none of which have any look-alike cars made off the shelf, but distinctive models that are competitive.

Also provide subsidies for the new fledgling EV makers like Tesla and Phoenix. That would bring the number to 8.

[blue_onyx]

44. This makes no sense

Break them up and scatter the pieces across the country? This would be unacceptable because: 1. We here in Detroit would lose tons of jobs and 2. location isn't the problem.

[Touchdown]

53. Ever wonder why Hollywood has no new ideas?

Industry towns tend to get petrified after a long while. Too many are satisfied listening to each other, instead of what the consumers want.

every day, this site has a thread on Washington Insiders, and Beltway politics,which have only a cursory view of what the American People stand for.

Detroit is no different. They only listen to themselves, and they only come up with variations on the same old technology. They need to broaden their horizons, and stop being so paternalistic as to what the American motorists want.

As far as Losing jobs in Detroit are concerned, try working for AT&T and staying in the same city for ever. Cry me a river, then re-locate to a warmer climate. I'd does a body good.

[blue_onyx]

76. Should the Wall Street banks that we bailed out be moved too?

If location is the problem with the auto companies then maybe we should try moving the banks too. Maybe Detroit can trade some auto companies for banks?

I don't believe the problem has anything to do with location. It has more to do with the people within the company. Everyone I know in the Detroit area wants the companies to develop newer, advanced technologies...we aren't blind to the companies' failures. Changing the leadership of the companies would do more than moving them.

As far as moving to warmer climates...I hate the heat. Very happy here and will fight to make it better. I very glad that Obama has shown support for the US auto companies and Detroit/Michigan.

[Touchdown]

89. Come to think of it. Why not? Why should NY be the only financial sector?

Also, I'm not saying that all companies should be removed, but for the sake of diversity and innovation, it's better for an industry if there aren't so many incestuous relationships between companies.

I don't consider the big 3 to really be rivals of each other. Never have. Not one has ever come out with a giant leap ahead of the other two. They all seem in lock step. That makes them incestuous.

[gravity]

15. No matter what, the big 3 have a labor costs disadvantage

[Touchdown]

16. so kill the unions and lower wages?

:wtf:

[gravity]

21. Something has to go

The current business model isn't working out, when you can get foreign companies to start up shop here in the south with much lower labor costs.

I would like there to be nationalized healthcare which would take much of the burden off the US companies. Labor unions need to come in terms with the modern economy and give concessions, or else they all are going to be out of the job. The US companies have to do their part too and make better cars.

[Deja Q]

I agree; ALL sides have to make concessions.

[Trajan]

37. Maybe the south should be unionized .....

I actually see no hope ....

My high paying job went first to El Paso from California ... Then to Georgia ....

I was paid very well, and I bought lots of things, that helped put others to work ....

Now: I struggle to make 80% of what I used to make 10 years ago .... But the employer I worked for is charging at least twice as much for their product: Where is that margin going ?

Im not sure that giving in to low wages is the answer ... But frankly: Without the concurrence and support of our fellow liberals, there is no hope that high wage jobs will ever return ...

If you are happy with struggling to reach the bottom, as defined by the LOWEST wage available in the globe, than I suppose I should prepare to live at that level too ... and wait for deflation to catch up ....

Maybe learning how to field dress a moose isnt a bad thing after all ...

[Touchdown]

49. Labor Unions have been kicked to the curb since 1980.

Concessions have been made. Real wages have not kept up with inflation, that includes union wages. Education and training have dwindled no matter what the industry is. Many employees, and some unionized, now have to pay out of their own pockets for health insurance, and pension funds have been raided for the benefit of higher CEO pay so now that retirees have to die with a broken promise. Something that was unheard of in the 70s.

Meanwhile CEOs and other top brass are grabbing as much dough as possible before the bottom falls out. They can't justify their outrageous salaries and bonuses while demanding concessions from the ones who actually produce the profits.

I see that the anti-union propaganda indoctrination has worked on you very well.

[Touchdown]

61. Not all Foreign makes are in the south.

Toyota builds it's trucks in California. Unionized
Mazda- Flat Rock Michigan. Unionized.
Mistubishi- Illinois
Honda- Marysville Ohio

The Corvette is built in the South, but it's builders are Unionized.

[Trajan]

31. Yeah .... Crazy shit here at DU today ....

Or I am just plum fucking loco ....

Why dont we promote HIGHER wages for everyone else ?

I happen to believe that business does very well when workers do well .... and the business suffers when workers suffer ....

Consumers cannot afford to buy anything as it is: They cannot afford to pay their debts, so what should we do ? ... DECREASE their income ? ....

Sheeesh .... I am outta here ....

DU is driving me nuts today .... It's nothing like it used to be .... and I have no insight as to why ....

ANTI Union .... ANTI worker ....

Yeah .. THATS the fucking ticket ..... :banghead:

[dorkulon]

39. I am not anti-worker.

I just think it would be better if they worked for a company that turned out a competitive product at a profit. If the gov't wanted to bail out individual people who needed help that'd be fine with me. But if a giant corporation cannot compete, it shouldn't be shored up by the taxpayer.

[Touchdown]

57. You want concessions? Yes you are anti worker.

Nowhere in any of your posts here have I read that you would consider slashing CEO salaries or advocate for a MAXIMUM wage. If a company can't turn a profit, it's not the assembly line's fault. It's the guy at the top's fault. Cut his salary, fire him, or make him work for free.

[dorkulon]

60. Oh, whatever.

I didn't say a lot of things, but I agree with everything you just said. So can the anger if you can for a minute.

[Touchdown]

62. Learn something about labor and it'll last longer than a minute

[dorkulon]

65. What concessions?

I said the worker's health care costs are hurting the companies. That is undeniably true. I did NOT say they should lose their HC benefits. I think we need universal health care to solve the issue.

[gravity]

82. A maximum wage isn't going to solve anything

The CEO can make zero, and it won't make a difference.

The problem is that the big 3 isn't bringing in enough money to pay all of its workers. If you have a constructive solution to help the problem I am all for it, but at the current rate, everyone is going to lose their job.

[Deja Q]

27. Henry Ford didn't think paying workers fair wages was a bad thing...

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/aso/databank/entries/btford.html

http://www.planetpapers.com/Assets/292.php

[ogneopasno]

33. No, their cost disadvantage is health care. Which is why the Big 3, the UAW, and other groups

have been trying to figure out how they can use their influence to push for single-payer health care. Which would change a lot.

Japanese car companies build here because they're outsourcing. They are outsourcing to the United States. Is that what we want to be?

[Idealism]

17. That misses the point.

its not the numbers of manufactorers we have, we can't pay people here less. what we can do is charge other countries more for them trying to bring cars here. that alone will save the automakers. our car companies get screwed when trying to sell to europe or asia, yet we don't screw their automakers back for selling them here. its just not an equal playing field, they already have much cheaper labor than us, we are taking it too easy on them.

[dorkulon]

18. I agree on this, but

I don't see much happening in this department. Certainly, it makes sense to revive protectionism somewhat, or our collective standard of living is bound to equalize with the 3rd world, which I'm not looking forward to. But a move like this seems unlikely, and assuming it doesn't happen, the bailout still makes no sense.

[Idealism]

25. I'm fairly certain most of us already know the bailout doesn't make sense.

reviving protectionism is the only real way through this recession, that and sizable increase to domestic spending to create jobs and modernize our infrastructure for the next wave of technology: green energy.

Our standard of living has already shifted, a recent U.N study found levels of stratification in major US cities rivaling some cities in Africa and South America. The rich get richer and you know the rest. No one is looking forward to this, but it is a consequence of our actions and failures as a nation to elect competent officials.

[dorkulon]

34. It's also the press, to some degree.

It seems there's an MSM lockout on protectionism. The so-called liberal NYT, for instance, doesn't seem to have a single columnist who isn't a free trade supporter. People like Thomas Friedman write childish books that severely misinform his readers, and people call him a genius.

[charlie]

64. Include the Supreme Court

The current court is one of the most corporate-friendly ever, including the ostensibly "liberal" jurists. T'wasn't always that way.

[trof]

20. "Can't"? Or wouldn't see the handwriting on the wall?

Oh, I know.
Their mantra is "We give the American public what they want."
And they did.
For a while.
And now the American public doesn't want what they make any more.
In other parts of the world they are producing and selling much more fuel efficient vehicles.

Oh I think they 'can' compete.
And now that they've been dragged, kicking and screaming, into the new (to them) world of diminishing oil supplies and global warming, once they get tooled up for hybrids, or all electric plug ins, or compressed air cars, I'm pretty sure they'll compete.

It's just sad that their executives have taken such a short term, max profit view of the U.S. market.

[dorkulon]

23. They've been making inferior vehicles since the eighties.

Even regardless of fuel efficiency, there was a marked decline in quality. There's a reason the resale value on a Japanese car is so much higher.

[Kalyke]

29. The reason?

It costs more when you purchase it. Duh.

I'll agree that in the 1980s, rice burners were better, but no more. My Fords have been far superior to my husband's foreign junk. He'll never buy another foreign car after he pays this one off, btw.

[Kalyke]

24. I HATE Toyotas. They suck, they're junk and they're living off

their 1980s PR.

The bailout, by the way, is so that American car companies can re-tool to provide hybrid cars. The problem in the past is that AMERICANS have DEMANDED big trucks and SUVs.

So, no, I don't want that piece of crap Toyota company to make my Mustang. It would be a piece of shit if they did.

[dorkulon]

30. My experience has been different.

For myself and my family, the experience has been consistent. American cars (GM and Ford) have been regrettable lemons, Japanese ones (Nissan and Toyota) have been durable and reliable. We're not sports car people, though.

[Kalyke]

35. I have the opposite and consistant experience.

My guess, here, however, is that you haven't owned an American car since the 1980s and don't know.

And, my mother and step-father have Fords, too. Reliable and durable and not sports cars. It's not just the sports car genre.

[dorkulon]

46. I think the last one was '94.

Ford Taurus. Had to replace the transmission twice within a year or two (under warranty, thank god). The thing was in the shop every month or two. I admit, after that (and don't get started on the '82 Buick Century wagon), we gave up. Oh, and I forgot to mention my sisters' 3 Subarus, all of which were just great.

So yeah, since then, it's been Japanese imports, and few complaints. Never owned a German car, but they do have a reputation as the best out there.

[Touchdown]

70. It doesn't matter when the last one was owned.

It should have NEVER been a POS in the first place. 70-80s or not! Cars are too expensive to "take a chance" on a make that burned you before.

Look. You get one, ONE chance to blow my socks off. There are too many auto makers out there who want my business. There is no way I will even reconsider another car from a company who screwed me with a piece of shit before. My money doesn't belong to the Big 3 by patriotic fiat. They have to earn it. Thus, Chrysler is off my list for the rest of my life.

[tomreedtoon]

129. My two cents: Toyota owner and Anti-Christler renter.

I own a 1994 Toyota Camry station wagon. That was after I ran a 1996 Camry sedan over 200,000 miles and it finally gave out. Both cars are the only vehicles in which I've been comfortable. They drive beautifully and last as long as you take proper maintenance.

But they can't make trips, so when I make an annual pilgrimage to Atlanta I rent an American car. The Anti-Christler PT Cruiser one year - a cute little car that shakes like an epileptic in a crosswind. Another sedan last year, which got lousy gas mileage and was near-impossible to drive in a cramped Atlanta underground garage.

The Japanese have provided constant lessons in how to make a quality car, with durability and comfort. The American car makers have not learned their lessons. They are incompetent. They need to be replaced. Or probably taken over by Toyota.

Yes, it's a massive culture shock, but the retarded old rich men who call themselves "captains of industry" need to be kicked out of their offices. They need to live on the streets where they have been constantly dumping their employees, on the blasted, dead streets of Michael Moore's abused Detroit. That is the only way they will learn they are wrong, wrong, wrong.

[blue_onyx]

48. I just think Toyotas and Hondas are boring looking

Particularly, the Camry and Accord. I think the GM mid-size cars (Malibu and Aura) are much better looking. Toyota not long ago saw a decline in quality. GM and Ford have seen their quality get better and better. Many of their brands are doing just as well as their foreign counterparts. I believe Gm and Ford need to do a better job of changing this image that all their cars are poor in quality.

[dorkulon]

51. The only way to change that image is to actually make better cars.

If they are doing that, then the perception will change. And me, I'm not as concerned with how pretty a car is as I am with how well it runs.

[blue_onyx]

55. They are making better cars

Some people just choose to continue believing an old assumption that US vehicles are inferior. The attractiveness of a car is VERY important. Nobody goes into a showroom and say, "this car hideous but it runs well so I'll buy." I bet auto companies spend as much money on the design of a car as they do on the mechanics.

[Touchdown]

73. Yes they do. Volvo, Edsell, Pontiac Aztec, Honda Brinks Whateveryoucallit.

People buy BUTT FUGLY cars all the time. The SUV! UGLY! Yeas I'll say it again! Not one SUV is attractive, and if you disagree, then you're a coward and a douchebag!:crazy:

No, seriously. They're station wagons with fat tires, or trucks with a camper shell and a couch in the back.

[blue_onyx]

81. Coward and douchbag? Seriously?

Are you an Obama supporter? You seem to prefer the Bush policy of, "with us or against us" and "if you have a difference of opinion with me, you're wrong and stupid."

People who bought those cars probably didn't think they were fugly. Anyway, no I'm not a fan of SUVs. The only SUV I've ever liked is the new Saturn Vue....probably would never buy it though (I prefer cars).

[Touchdown]

87. I was joking. I went off on a Robin Williams insane binge.

Sorry about that. :blush:

[blue_onyx]

90. Ok. It's hard to tell when people are joking sometimes

I can't stand Robin Williams. Whenever he's on Real Time w/ Bill Maher, he just keeps going on and on. And, for some reason, people keep laughing even though he's making no sense.

[spinbaby]

72. Wow, your tastes are way different than mine

When Saturn turned out the Aura as their mid-sized vehicle, I left Saturn and went to Toyota. I'd had two Saturn L series and liked them, but the Aura is ugly in a fake Cadillac kind of way. Plus, the mileage got worse.

[blue_onyx]

84. Yep, we have different taste

I hated the Saturn L series. I would've NEVER even looked at a Saturn until it recently re-designed it's vehicles. I think the Aura is bigger than the L-series which might account for the lower mileage.

[End Of The Road]

28. I'll be happy to throw some $$ at the auto industry, IF and WHEN

if and when I've got enough info that makes me feel it will actually keep them alive. Right now I don't think a bailout will help very much. I have a feeling this is a more complicated issue than what I'm hearing from many people at DU -- that auto makers have been building the "wrong" cars, and so forth...

Health care costs and retirement costs are HUGE issues that may need to be addressed first, but that'll take so long that the industry will fail in the meantime.

[northernlights]

38. Obama has already said that any bailout

will be tied to reducing dependance on foreign oil, among other things.

I expect his team already considered all of your issues...and probably a thousand more you haven't thought of or are totally unaware of.

[dorkulon]

40. No doubt.

But since I can't talk to them, I figured I'd bring my concerns here. That's okay, right?

[PM7nj]

42. I think they can compete... they need to survive first, though.

Ford, Chrysler, and (especially) GM have been horribly managed. They need to start making cars that more Americans want to buy. Ford is slowly making progress, GM promises to make progress, and Chrysler... well, Chrysler probably won't exist in a few weeks.

I think the US automakers can compete but they need totally new management. A bailout will be a total waste of money if the government lets the people who have driven these companies into the ground to continue.

[DainBramaged]

54. (sigh) they HAVE been building cars America wants to buy

Just because they didn't have a hybrid they're bad? I posted an article a couple of days ago, because Toyota is in a PANIC, because they have had such a drop off in profit with the gas price crisis they stopped selling SUVs and trucks which subsidized the gas sippers. Their projected profit is going to be down 70%, SEVENTY PERCENT, because they make little or NO money of their fleet of small cars.

Toyota sold a lot of cars last year world wide, but they only sold 500,000 Prius since the introduction, and the Prius gets all of the attention in the press and on DU. Did you also know the Japanese government financed the development of the Prius? Would you call that a bail-out?

Give me a break. Get educated.

Here's the article;

Toyota's Watanabe in crisis mode after N.A. loss


The once mighty Toyota profit machine tumbled to a rare loss in North America, sending President Katsuaki Watanabe into crisis mode as he slashed sales and profit predictions.

Toyota Motor Corp. now expects global operating profit to plummet 73.6 percent to ¥600.0 billion, or $5.83 billion in the fiscal year ending March 31.

Just three months ago, Toyota had forecast operating profit to drop a comparatively modest 29.5 percent to $15.5 billion. The new goal would be Toyota's lowest operating profit since the company began calculating in U.S. accounting standards in 1998.

The U.S. market meltdown has upended Toyota's profit picture.

North America slumped to a $335.9 million operating loss in the April-September fiscal first half. Sales there slid 9.4 percent to 1.36 million vehicles in the period.

"This is an unprecedented situation," Executive Vice President Mitsuo Kinoshita said here today while delivering financial results. "Every week, the environment gets worse."

Kinoshita said things won't improve until late 2009 at the earliest.

Watanabe is chairman of a committee charged with keeping Toyota in the black in 2009 and 2010. Details are scant, but the committee will review everything from pricing to the product pipeline.

Aside from shriveling U.S. demand, Toyota also is getting hit by a rising yen. The yen has gained nearly 12 percent against the dollar since August, reducing the value of dollar-denominated sales when converted back into Toyota's home currency.

Looking ahead, Toyota also slashed its global sales target. It now expects sales to fall 7.6 percent to 8.24 million units this fiscal year. It had earlier forecast 8.74 million vehicles.

Net income also will fall significantly, Toyota warned. The new outlook calls for a 68.0 percent drop to $5.34 billion for the year. That is less than half Toyota's earlier forecast for net income of $11.7 billion.

http://www.autonews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20081106/ANA02/811069985/-1/BREAKING

[PM7nj]

71. I never mentioned anything about Toyota or hybrids.

Also, if the Big 3 have been making all of these wonderful cars, why aren't any of them selling? I'm not talking about the last month either. Nothing has been selling, I know that. But why weren't they selling earlier this year, last year, 2 years ago?

[DainBramaged]

74. They have been, all you need to do is find the numbers

the press lists percent declines over last year. Last year was one of the best on record, upwards of 14,000,000 total vehicles sold in this country. This year is different, for ALL of the manufacturers, especially with lack of credit and the higher than usual unemployment rate.

All you have to do is look. The NHTSA is a good place to start.

[PM7nj]

78. "The numbers" also show the Big 3 have been consistently losing market share for the last 40 years.

[DainBramaged]

91. Marketing, marketing, marketing

Honda shows a car body in the forest with owls and deer. The text of the commercial is that Honda makes a body with double-walled steel (ever drive a Honda Civic through a car wash and listen to the roof flex under the high pressure air for drying?)

People aren't listening to the spiel, they think Honda's are eco-friendly because a deer and owl like the body.


Marketing marketing marketing.

[PM7nj]

92. Ford, GM, and Chrysler need to hire a new marketing firm then.

If that is the only problem, it should be easily fixed.

[DainBramaged]

95. They fired them late last year. Deadwood. New ads are much better.

but it takes time to regain share.

[PM7nj]

98. Okay, we'll see.

I'm not convinced that the only reason the Big 3 are doing bad is because they have/had sucky ads, though.

[melm00se]

43. I am putting on my asbestos underwear for posting this

piece:
http://www.newsobserver.com/opinion/columns/story/1285449.html

But it points out something that factors into the equation:

IN A SENSE, THERE ARE REALLY TWO AUTOMOBILE INDUSTRIES IN THIS COUNTRY. One, dominated by the Big Three and the UAW, is located in what is often called the Rust Belt. The other component, foreign-owned and nonunionized, is centered in the Sun Belt and in nonmetropolitan (and often anti-union) parts of the Rust Belt.

The former is sounding its death rattle, while the latter -- dominated by Toyota, Nissan, BMW, Mercedes-Benz, Honda and Hyundai -- is quite dynamic.

[DainBramaged]

50. It won't change the fact that so many here on DU are anti-labor

and anti-American products. Consistently getting their asses kicked in quality and value? You have no clue other than what you read here, which is biased against American auto companies. The American auto industry HAS done a lot to improve fuel economy, you just haven't noticed. GM has more models that get over 30MPG than all of the Japanese manufacturers combined. Toyota, Honda, Lexus, Nissan, Infinity, Acura and all of the Korean manufacturers have more gas guzzlers than econoboxes, check for yourself before you make such ridiculous statements.And what jobs are the big three moving out of the country? They set up manufacturing plants in China and India JUST like the Japanese did here, unfortunately, the Japanese won't let us build any factories in Japan, and place absurd restrictions and tariffs on our cars that we try to import. Level the playing field and maybe we'd be even more competitive.

Your OP was simply posted to start a flame war, not for any constructive reason. And like so many of you who disparage the US auto industry and the tens of thousands of small business that contribute to or rely on for a living, you probably haven't owned a Domestic in 20+ years. Of course, we'll hear the war stories how your parent's 1988 piss mobile was always in the shop, or that you broke down every weekend and had to push the car in 3 feet of snow to the nearest garage, but you won't look at NHTSA records and compare recalls, nope that takes too much work.


DU the forum for Progressives, who want America to become a service industry based country. How sad. Keep buying the Japanese and German cars, and put more people out of work, it's the American way.

[spoony]

52. YES!

Way to set that shit straight. Like you said in your subject line, it probably won't change the appallingly anti-Democratic attitudes, but at least the truth is out there. Solidarity.

[dorkulon]

58. There were cars that got that kind of mileage in the '80s.

And since then, the industry has lobbied to reverse the standards that produced that advancement. 30mpg is pitiful, considering it's been 30 years.

I am not here to start a flame war. I put forth my admittedly non-expert opinion, and I hoped to see people agree or tell me why I'm wrong, without insulting me, hopefully.

And I've already stated elsewhere in this thread that I think we should raise tariffs, if necessary, to enable fair competition. But I also don't see that happening.

But don't tell me we shouldn't buy a foreign car IF it is a better value. In the Soviet Union, everyone had to buy Russian cars. And guess what? Those cars sucked. They sucked because they had no competition.

If I'm wrong about American cars being inferior products relative to foreign imports, then I'm wrong about that. I haven't seen much evidence that they're doing better, but I don't know everything. But don't tell me I want manufacturing to die in this country, because that is just bullshit. I want manufacturing to thrive--because we are making good products at good prices, not because poorly managed corporations are being subsidized by taxpayers.

[DainBramaged]

63. You insult the millions of us in the industry

with your lack of knowledge, knowledge as to how the Japanese and Koreans and Germans work to keep the Unions out of the manufacturing plants, why they build in some of the poorest and least educated areas of the country, and why there is no worker security at a Japanese auto plant. There are plenty of suckers waiting to fill the jobs of those fired for complaining about their lack of rights. Toyota has been making a big deal about turning their plants "green". GM started that 5 years ago, but no one here gives them any credit.

I have a feeling you are barely old enough to drive. That would explain a lot.

[Name removed]

68. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Touchdown]

83. Hey now. The German plants in Germany are all unionized.

And they get better benefits than their American counterparts. If BMW or Volkswagen found some anti-union right to slave states in the south, that's upper management's responsibility not the workers of the company. These german auto workers are your brothers and sisters. Of course the cars they make are expensive, but they are sought after because of their reputation. Blame our anti-labor climate in this country which allows for Right To Work states to exist in the first place.

The Japanese are a different story. They don't have unions per-se, but they do have free housing for employees and are guaranteed employment for life... in Japan. In America, well that's another story, and a sad one. They also don't give their CEOs million dollar bonuses, hello Robert Stemple.

BTW: I have a luxury car that gets 30 mpg. We can do better than that.

[DainBramaged]

86. I hope it's a Caddy!

:hi:

[Touchdown]

94. I can't afford new! I bought used. I'm a union man like you.

But I did test drive a 1 year old CTS and they are niiiice.

And if you must know, it is a used 2001 325xi that I bought in 2004. It was made in Germany, but like I said those workers are making a good living.

Now, before you attack a union brother for buying a foreign car, even if it's used, I can name you quite a few UAW workers who use T Mobile, Sprint, Verizon, Alltel, Vonage, etc. and not AT&T or Qwest, which are the only 2 unionized mobile companies.;) :hi:

[DainBramaged]

99. Verizon is Union back here in the Northeast.

AT&T is my Internet choice, and mobile choice. I go out of my way to buy American made products, and check the UAW site all the time to see who is with us and who ain't. BTW a 3 year old CTS which gets low 30 MPG, sell around $15,000 now, with low millage. And they are just as nice as when they were new, tight, leak free and reliable. :hi:

[Touchdown]

102. Verizon land lines, not cellular.

The classic Bell Atlantic/NYNEX/GTE portion of the company remains union. The Cellular part and Verizon Business, which is the former MCI are not, and they are fighting tooth and nail to keep it that way. Verizon is a strange company.

[DainBramaged]

105. Yes land Lines, not wireless, should have mentioned that.

Things will change under an Obama/Biden presidency.

[Touchdown]

110. Once I drive Hans Bimmer into the ground, I will definitely take

a serious look at the CTS, maybe the next model generation. Of course if the $900 repair bills aren't worth the beauty of the drive, it might be sooner for me to look.:hi:

[End Of The Road]

67. I've got a Chevy, and I'm VERY pro-labor

But I am not yet convinced that a bailout will save the industry long-term. Or even near-term, for that matter.

[DainBramaged]

69. What will save it are measures to level the playing field

the gas price crisis almost did it, it forced everyone to look at their cost of manufacturing, and try to improve the profitability of their low end products. And by bringing the same protective tariffs on Japanese cars as they do ours would help too. Lexus, Infinity, most Nissan, most Honda's, Accra's, most BMW's are imported. With no restrictions. That has to end.

[Odin2005]

117. I agree, people shitting on cars made by the US Big 3 are stuck in the 80's.

Back then our cars did suck compared to the Asian car-makers, but that's not true anymore.

[lib2DaBone]

56. How about 4 cyl diesel sport pickups that get 60 MPG.. they have them in Europe?

[tammywammy]

59. Do they meet the EPA standards in the US?

Did you know the US limits the number of diesels as a percentage of overall vehicles sold by a manufacturer? The new VW Jetta TDI has huge demand, but unfortunately VW can only sell so many diesels per year.

Also, safety standards are different in Europe than in the US.

[DainBramaged]

66. They don't want to hear it

the Unions and manufacturers are all bad guys.


:hi:

[PM7nj]

75. No, it is the management of these companies that is the problem.

GM would be doing a lot better if it weren't for Rick Wagoner and Bob Lutz. Those two have been disasters. I blame them completely, not the workers or the UAW.

[dipsydoodle]

77. It is a losing proposition

unless they go over to making what they can sell rather than selling what they make.

[DainBramaged]

80. Truck and SUV orders tripled so far this month over any other month

this year. WHY? Gas is cheap again, and those of us who aren't passionate about our cars the economy, or the ecology and how we affect it, now believe the crisis was manufactured, and they are stooges. How do you convince a customer to buy an economical sedan when he/she can buy a bigger, 'safer' car for about the same even though the gas mileage is dramatically different?


A Toyota Camry V6 is a perfect example of how marketing works. People think it gets great millage, people think it is well built. But it's combined millage is poor because it is a V6, but people WANT the extra power. Now with gas cheap, do you think the 4 cyl. version will sell as well? And Toyota does nothing to dissuade people from thinking this way, they are in business to sell cars, period.

[backscatter712]

79. I think Obama has the right idea on this.

R&D to make green cars - cars with 40+MPG fuel economy, hybrids, electric cars, etc.

The car companies have refused to think any further than the next quarterly earnings report, so they don't work on this sort of long-term stuff.

Instead, they focus solely on cosmetics - making the cars look shiny in the showroom, but the fact is that without much cajoling from us, their cars use too much gas, they're made of cheap plastic, and they fall apart really quickly.

[DainBramaged]

85. No wrong again. One example, GM introduced a six speed auto in many platforms

to improve drivability and millage last year. Toyota followed suit this year (2009). Here is a page showing combined millage for all of the Camry's. It opens your eyes.

http://www.newcars.org/cars/toyota/2009-camry-xle-v6-6-speed-at.asp

25 MPG combined is good?

[backscatter712]

88. Yeah, we need to bring the hammer down on the fuel economy standards.

The Bushies have been loosening the fuel economy rules for his entire 8 years - notice that pre-2000 models of cars did frequently get 30+MPG, and cars sold in Europe where the standards are tougher get awesome fuel economy today.

It's not that the technology isn't there to kick up the fuel economy from 25 MPG to 35 MPG, it's that the car companies want to build cars with bigger engines - that extra oomph when you step on the gas makes them sell better, but makes them guzzle more gas.

Tighten up the fuel economy rules to deal with this problem, and force the Detroit manufacturers to start making better cars.

[DainBramaged]

93. Well, the 'gas crisis' did just that, but like I said, people are going back

to their old ways. Chevy improved the millage on the 5-speed Cobalt from 33 to 36 MPG by re-tuning the computer, changing the trans ratios, and running low-resistance tires. But those languish on the lots now. People want Malibu's and Impalas again.

[backscatter712]

100. What's funny is that I liked the last Cobalt I drove.

It was a rental I got when my Jetta was in the shop - brand new, got about 30MPG, had all the current bells and whistles on it. A pretty pleasant car to drive.

[leftofthedial]

97. same was true of the banks.

giving them a mountain of our cash didn't change the fact that capitalism doesn't work.

[zbdent]

101. bring back the tariffs on imported cars.

That will cause the foreign-car producers to decide to up the ante on the other stuff we get from them cheap ... like steel ...

Thus, when the car companies can't get cheap steel from overseas, the demand for American-made steel will start to rise.

Once we stop using foreign steel, then the other nations will stop making the other cheaper stuff ... like TVs, computers, etc.

Short run, Americans will face higher costs ... and less demand ... unless the "American" companies start hiring because the "American" workers are being used to make the stuff we can't buy cheaply from other nations any more ... and thus, they will be getting jobs ...

[NashVegas]

103. Why Aren't There More Recs?

American business's idea of competition, post 1984, is competing to obtain loans to be used for buying out their products' competition.

And now they're fucked because the loans they've been competing for are under lock and key.

[DainBramaged]

107. What?

[NashVegas]

109. This Is What Happens

Let's say their are 5 bakeries in your town, all competing for a slice of profits from the local economy.

Baker A goes to the bank and gets a loan to buy out Baker B's business. In order to impress the bank, first he has to show he can run lean by pink slipping one or two members of his staff and having everyone else pick up the slack.

He gets the money and buys out Baker B, and consolidates operations by firing B's old accountant and anyone else who's redundant. He buys greater-capacity ovens and fires a pastry chef or two.

Baker C, does the same thing with Baker D.

Now there are three bakers, only Bakers A & C have a financial advantage over Baker E, who's still running the same old small-scale operation. Whichever of the three bakers can convince a bank to provide a loan will be the next to squeeze out competition.

[DainBramaged]

111. GM dropped out of talks to buy Chrysler, is that what you are referring to????

[NashVegas]

113. The Fact That Modern Businesses DON'T COMPETE With Their Products

They compete by marketing (manipulation of the consumer) and by means of accessing enough debt to knock off their competition, and that's why Ford, GM, and so many other companies are now fucked.

[DainBramaged]

116. No, I disagree but then, what difference does it make

[TreasonousBastard]

104. Idiotic! Any trend to small cars is due...

entirely to gas prices and is probably temporary, same as it was several times in the past. The Nash Rambler was one great beneficiary of gas prices going up, and we're all glad to see how Studebaker is now leading the market.

When the F-150 was one of the the best selling vehicles in the country, who's fault was that and why would anyone at Ford try to slow it's sales? The bigshots here who seem to know how to run multi-billion dollar companies might try explain how these ignorant auto executives would explain to their stockholder why they threw out the most profitable part of the enterprise to invest in an area of guaranteed losses.

And, Ford and GM DO have excellent smaller cars that are never actually driven by the naysayers, but are sneered at if not completely ignored. They need newer ones, but the Japanese got all their R&D returned from their domestic market before they started sending Fits and Yarises over here. They really don't make squat from those little econoboxes, and US automakers, already at a cost disadvantage from retirement and health bennies, lose money on the tiny cars. The lack of profit on econoboxes is largely what keeps everyone in Europe but Volkswagen out of the lower end of the US market, and even VW can't sell some of its better stuff here.

Then, there's all this bullshit about Toyota and the Prius, while completely ignoring the Tundra, Highlander, and Land Cruiser, to say nothing of the entire Lexus brand-- green company my ass. Where did Toyota get those profits to keep the Prius in production for a number of units a year closer to the Corvette than the Corolla?

[DainBramaged]

108. Well said, but will fall on deaf ears here.

ToyotaHonda is god on DU. GM will release the Volt next year, and everyone will find fault with it, but will have never put their ass in it's seat for a second. They are the experts, 'doncha know.

[NashVegas]

112. Oh Yeah, The Volt's Gonna Be Great

Starting at $30k.

Zenn goes for 1/3 of that.

[DainBramaged]

114. Like I said previously.......

:eyes:

[Touchdown]

118. Ok, let me shit on the Volt for a moment.

It looks like a friggin CAMRY!!!!!!:puke:

I wanted that beautiful concept Volt I saw at the auto shows! You know the 2 door spots coupe that looked like a space ship. Not a 4 door slightly sleeker than a Malibu!

I want the original Volt!:cry:

Otherwise, it's a great new direction by GM, and I should encourage you guys to continue.

[DainBramaged]

120. Aerodynamics, and sedans outsell coupes nearly 7-1

Toyota dropped the Solara but kept the convertible. Even the Prius is a 4 door. The Cobalt, Yaris and Fits are the only sxceptions to the rule.

[CRF450]

127. As DB said, they changed it for the aerodynamics.

And I would take that car over a fugly prius anyday.

[Odin2005]

115. They can't compete mainly because of health-care costs, IIRC

I've heard of US factories being replaced by factories in CANADA of all places because of healthcare.

IMO a national healthcare system and a government-backed national pension system is the only thing that will keep the US manufacturing competitive, especially for old and mature industries like automobiles.

[ecstatic]

119. I don't know much about this, but if they could just lower their prices

I think they'd do a lot better overall. I recall them doing well when they allegedly gave everyone access to employee pricing.

I have a foreign car, but there are still some GM cars that I think are cute--like Cadillacs, some Ford models, and some Dodge models (is that American :shrug:).

[DainBramaged]

121. Here is a surprise

The LOWEST priced car in America is the Chevy Aveo (made in Korea no less). You can buy it without AC and with a 5-speed for less than $10,000 and it gets 35 MPG highway. But Chevy sells virtually none. Go figure.

[ecstatic]

122. I'm guessing due to bad marketing? Never heard of the Aveo!

:rofl:

[Touchdown]

123. A friend of mine bought one of those. Bought it for a song.

I think like $11,000. It has A/C, but it's nothing fancy. But, he's a town rambler. Almost never hits the highway.

[rustbeltrefugee]

124. Brainwashed

I have ben reading this site for awhile now and 99% agree with most of what gets said. That being the case I have long been angered by my fellow liberals who claim to be so pro labor and pro American, yet drive toyota, nissan etc. You are absolutely blind to the absolute truth of the manufacturing situation in this country. The US auto industry quite literally built the blue collar middle class and with it the labor movement. The trade agreements that have been agreed to by every pres since nixon have single handedly handicapped the US auto makers to the point that now they are pretty much toast. I grew up in southestern Michigan and to put it mildly, I am Furious!. If you are driving a Japanese car, the entire middle class owes you a heartfelt kick in the ass. The Japanese companies can sell you a car that is no better than an American model only they get to do it at a much smaller cost to build that same car. Why? They do not have to pay for their employees benefits. Any benefits offered to their employees is subsidized by the Japanese government. They refuse to unionize and talk of doing so gets you the boot. Why do you think they build all their plants in the South? No pressure to unioniae from the good ol' boys. Trust me I live down here, and the southernification of this country since 1980 is going to be the end of this country. THINK ABOUT IT!

[Touchdown]

125. Welcome to DU.

:hi:

[CRF450]

126. I hope GM survives long enough to release the Volt, and start making profits on that

They have a number of compact econo cars in the works too. Though if you look at their numbers, their car sales arent really whats killing them, its the healthcare and retirement benefits thats got them on a tight leash.

Most of their autos can compete, but bad perceptions of past cars (like pretty much the majority here on DU thinks of them) is a HUGE obstacle to overcome.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

128. Add to that, that nobody's going to be able to afford to buy cars for a long while.

We live in a global market, like it or not. Consumers are going to pay the lowest prices available for the best products it will buy no matter where the product is from, how "unfair" the manufacturer might be, or however much the flag is waved.

This is going to be especially true during a recession.

Bailing out the Big 3 is just postponing the inevitable.

[yodoobo]

130. A bailout has to do two things

One Bail them out.

Two, Change the fundamental way they do business in such a way that future bailouts will be unnecessary.


You can't save a drunk by giving him a drink.