So what do we tell the 13 year old gay kid?

[ruggerson]

Can he or she become President, too?

What do we tell this kid about his or her part of the American dream?

What do parents of gay kids tell their children about their dreams?

The 13 year old gay kid can't even lie in bed at night and imagine what his adult family life will look like, because this has been taken away by people supposedly concerned about "kids."

Well, who's looking out for THIS kid?

And why is it when the bigots talk about the "children", gay children are never part of their conversation or concern?

So exactly what do we tell the 13 year old gay kid?

[dsc]

1. we tell him or her that s/he sucks

I would love to think we tell him or her something else but we cleary don't care.

[funkybug]

21. Not the right msg

Can't we say equality comes with time and point to this election as proof?

[galileoreloaded]

124. Lets worry about keeping the 13 YO fed. n/t

[readmoreoften]

163. Why so the kid can just blow his or her brains out? 1/3 of juvenile suicides are LGBT.

[David Dunham]

2. Sadly, not for the foreseeable future can she or he expect true equality

[yodoobo]

3. What was Obama told about being President when he was 13?

I dunno, but I'm sure I know what prevailing wisdom was 34 years ago.

You tell'm that yes you can.

[JI7]

7. not just 34 years ago, but i would say 4-8 years ago also

[JI7]

4. you tell them that Obama could not have been elected not too long ago

because of bigotry. about all the hard work it took to get there .

[ruggerson]

12. Obama, as a child, could think about growing up and getting married

and starting a family.

All the 13 year old gay kid knows is that "no he can't."

[JI7]

15. yes, but if his mother and father wanted to marry at one time they couldn't

Obama himself would not have been able to buy a house in certain areas. get loans to start a business etc.

it's not just about OBama but those who came before him.

[mondo joe]

17. And strangely enough, Obama didn't learn the lesson of that.

That makes it extra sad.

[JI7]

18. Obama opposed Proposition 8

[mondo joe]

23. Modestly. And also articulated his opposition to marriage, which boosted Yes on 8.

Too bad he didn't learn more from his own family history.

[JI7]

30. it's disappointing but it's politics, i do think Obama will improve

things when it comes to gay rights as President

[mondo joe]

33. That's something to hope for.

:hi:

[cali]

178. not so. not in MA and not in CT

You point to those two states and tell the child that we'll keep fighting for his and her rights. It's a hell of a lot of a better time to be coming of age as a gay/lesbian kid now that it was only a few short years ago. You point to the progress made and acknowledge that we still have a long way to go.

[LeftyMom]

5. Something about camps and shock therapy, I suppose.

:cry:

[msongs]

6. unfortunately few 13 yr old gay kids even have FAMILY they can share with let alone dreams of a

future. Ain't religion wunnerful?

Msongs

[JohnnyLib2]

13. Sadly true.

It's going to change. Slowly.

[Sebastian Doyle]

8. "when the bigots talk about the "children", gay children are never part of their conversation"

Because bigots don't believe gay children exist. They don't believe you "choose" to be gay until you're an adult (at least biologically) because they only think of being gay in terms of sex.

[indigo32]

183. exactly -NT

[bluestateguy]

9. Conservative parents would force him into "reparative" therapy

I have a friend who was disowned by his parents for being gay. They demanded that he go to "reparative" therapy. He said no, and they then said that they wanted nothing more to do with him.

[kcass1954]

31. My dad thought that was a good idea with my brother.

My youngest brother came out in his early 20's. My parents were shocked and appalled, and my siblings and I didn't care. He'd always been our brother and we'd always loved him, and so we still would.

My dad thought that if my brother went into therapy, he wouldn't be gay anymore. My brother agreed to do it, just to try to please our dad.

Twenty-five years later, he's still gay. What he discovered in therapy was that it's okay to just be who you are.

[saltpoint]

10. We tell her or him that one ballot measure lost but that the vote

was close, meaning there are nearly as many people in California who affirm as who deny lesbian and gay people, and we mention that it took some many decades between the peak of the civil rights movement and the election of Barack Obama, and that there were many, many good people of all ethnic identities who voted for Obama because he was a good man and the best candidate for our democracy.

And we say that other countries who are older and more mature cultures do not have the same misgivings about sexual identity as our country, that our country is still young compared to those cultures, and that the goal of equality for LGBTQ people remains a worthy one and one which we deeply feel will be realized.

And not least, we fight like hell to stop gay-hating organizations like Wildmon's and others who try to keep LGBTQ books out of public libraries. We move forward on equality for everybody on the infrastructure that everybody is already equal and that state laws must evolve to reflect that equality.

[ellius101]

11. I think you should email this question to Jack Cafferty at CNN

And every liberal in the MSM!
I think every American, bigoted or not, should have to think to think about this.
If you want, let me know and I'll email it!

[ruggerson]

14. be my guest

thanks.

[mondo joe]

16. We lie. We tell him his equality is important to a lot of people, and they don't think he's

too elite or privileged to deserve civil rights. We lie and tell him his President knows what it means to be less than equal, and he's going to make the country better for him. We lie and tell him we are part of a coalition with a commitment to social justice, and our friends are going to side with us.

[elleng]

19. We cool it,

and recognize that Muslims, Jews, women, agnostics, athiests, or any of the MANY social minorities in this country will likely be able to become president after The People become more accustomed to them/us than they are now; this all takes time, LOTS of time.

And we are NOT california.

[ruggerson]

26. Women didn't get the vote by "cooling it"

and telling themselves this takes lots of time.

Blacks didn't get full equality by cooling it. They got it by agitating and subjecting themselves to getting beaten up by leagues of bigots-in-uniforms.

We don't get anywhere in this country by "cooling it."

We get there by pushing the envelope. Till we bleed.

[closeupready]

89. And we don't WANT to be California anymore. I even took "Go West" off heavy Ipod rotation.

Can't stand to listen to it anymore.

[Name removed]

20. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

22. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[mopinko]

35. how about- rome wasn't built in a day?

or maybe- pick your battles. everyone who doesn't agree with you 100% of the time is not your mortal enemy.
or- don't burn your bridges.

[elleng]

36. GOOD mopinko!!!!

.

[Bluebear]

41. You've got to be shitting me.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

94. Seriously

I see I got back just in time to see the wave of homophobes.

[Bluebear]

106. It's like you never left.

:hug:

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

120. Well, at least things picked up right where they were left off

:hug:

[Chulanowa]

112. Hope your clothing can handle treadmarks

Looks like you're getting tossed under the bus again.

[yardwork]

116. We hardly ever get out from under the bus. In fact, we like it down here!

There's a party down here every day. Join us! This is where all the fun is all the time.

[QC]

117. A lot of good progressives have ended up under there lately. n/t

[yardwork]

121. That's because this is the best place to party!

[Jamastiene]

148. You can say that again. n/t

[Chulanowa]

172. Ah... I think i'll pass. How's the transmission looking?

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

123. We can see how well this new Columbia fleece jacket (courtesy of John Hancock) can handle it

[Jamastiene]

147. Nothing has changed.

Glad to see you back though. :hug:

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

149. I know

Thanks.

:hug:

[yardwork]

69. FANTASTIC show of support. He must be your friend. Not like those filthy queers.

We're too rude to have rights.

[Name removed]

135. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[yardwork]

141. Thank you!

[ruggerson]

37. and just because you don't care about something

doesn't make it flamebait if someone else does.

This isn't about YOU.

[mopinko]

54. did i say i didn't care? i do.

if i had a magic wand, i would fix it. i know people are pissed. but shitting on people that agree with you 99.99999% is not a good idea. the flames going on around here are downright sad.
be pissed at the people who fucked you. i am not one. barack is not one. some of us worked god damned hard to elect someone who is a damn site better than anyone this country has ever seen. i want to be happy about my president for a couple of fucking days. i see you don't get that. but jesus.
i am seeing people getting really bent out of shape, and treating people like shit. that is just a plain old bad thing. get some perspective.

[yardwork]

56. I know that this will come as a complete surprise to you, but the OP was not about you.

Astounding, I know.

[ruggerson]

63. explain to me how the OP is in any way, shape or form "flamebait"

and where am I "shitting on people" that agree with me?

Where the fuck are you coming from?

[yardwork]

66. Psst. Google "narcissistic personality disorder." Just a suggestion.

[ruggerson]

76. I'm beginning to suspect that

but I want to hear what she has to say. I don't want to "burn my bridges" ;)

[yardwork]

78. Damn. I had the gender wrong.

Should I apologize or do you think this latest rudeness on my part will just be added to the net total of depravity I'm carrying around for having sex with another woman?

[ruggerson]

82. See if she has a button you can buy

"If I see a bridge, I burn it."

[yardwork]

84. I love it! I want one desperately.

[Bluebear]

86. "Have you shit on your friends today?"

And the ever-popular "Pick your battles!!!1"

[yardwork]

91. And the old chestnut - "Sit down and shut up until we feel like bothering with you."

Or maybe, "On my list of top 50 priorities, your human rights didn't make the cut."

[ruggerson]

93. that one alone pays the mortgage

[Zhade]

101. Well, that makes sense. Just go read any thread about "gifted" people where that poster replies.

NT!

[foo_bar]

179. it's a term defined by the DSM, the manual that once classified homosexuality a disorder

Per Google, the billing code for NPD is "301.81" (formerly "passive-aggressive personality"); until the DSM-III, the code for homosexuality was "Sexual Deviancy" or "302.0" (right next to each other on the not-really-disorders axis (can you imagine being diagnosed with "inadequate personality"?)):

V. PERSONALITY DISORDERS AND CERTAIN OTHER NON-
PSYCHOTIC MENTAL DISORDERS (301—304)
301 Personality disorders
.0 Paranoid personality
.1 Cyclothymic personality ((Affective personality))
.2 Schizoid personality
.3 Explosive personality
.4 Obsessive compulsive personality ((Anankastic personality))
.5 Hysterical personality
.6 Asthenic personality
.7 Antisocial personality
.81* Passive-aggressive personality*
.82* Inadequate personality*
.89* Other personality disorders of specified types*
<.9 Unspecified personality disorder>

302 Sexual deviations
.0 Homosexuality
.1 Fetishism
.2 Pedophilia
.3 Transvestitism
.4 Exhibitionism
.5* Voyeurism*
.6* Sadism*
.7* Masochism*
.8 Other sexual deviation
<.9 Unspecified sexual deviation[br />
http://64.233.169.104/search?q=cache:EQWbiI0KcGgJ:www.psychiatryonline.com/DSMPDF/dsm-ii.pdf (the DSM, version 2)

[Midlodemocrat]

65. In other words. HEY!! You queers!!! STFU and sit down!!!!

We'll get to you when we're done with everything else, including putting a Prius in everyone's garage.

Well. FUCK THAT. FUCK THAT SIDEWAYS.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

98. I recommend this post

:thumbsup:

[Zhade]

105. Yup. And it's crazy - it's not like we're going to do that.

NT!

[mondo joe]

67. Actually, Barack is one.

And anyone opposed to civil rights deserves to be shit on.

[Cali_Democrat]

136. Psssssst........

Obama is your friend.....pass it on....

Obama will be the best President the GLBT community ever had IMO!!! He knows struggle and what it takes to overcome discrimination.

For obvious reasons, he can't come out and state he is for gay marriage because this country isn't ready for the nominee of a major party to say it....but that doesn't mean a major politician like Obama doesn't have empathy. Obama came out against prop 8.

But as President, he can help to advance gay rights and I'm confident he will ;-)

Never give up is what I would tell that 13-year old.

Never give up.

[mondo joe]

139. I voted for him, and I'm giving him a chance.

But anyone who is opposed to equality - and that includes Obama - has a serious flaw.

[yardwork]

72. I see one person "treating people like shit." And one person praising it.

I do see that. Loud and clear.

[Zhade]

96. Perspective? You'd rather feel good at the expense of discussing this issue.

I don't think *we're* the ones who need a perspective check.

[Jamastiene]

150. How is asking a question shitting on people?

The OP asks a simple set of questions.

[yardwork]

158. Yeah, but they were bridge-burny kinds of questions.

We have to earn our rights, dontcha know? /sarcasm

[yardwork]

47. Let me understand. Human rights are a reward for being polite.

Human rights are correctly denied to anyone who is impolitic.

Got it.

[Bluebear]

49. Silly! "Pick your battles!"

[mopinko]

58. that's not what i said, either.

human rights are won by building on the common ground you have with people. not by shitting on your friends.

[yardwork]

60. Revision. Now I think I get it. Human rights are to be denied to those who "shit on their friends"

Those who "shit on their friends" are to be denied human rights. Human rights are to be expected only by those who "win" by "building on the common ground" we have with people who make fun of children contemplating suicide.

[Bluebear]

62. Who has been "shitting on their friends" since Tuesday?

What kind of drama is this?

[yardwork]

77. According to melt-down over there, human rights are a reward for being cool and polite.

Looks like he's out of luck.

[mondo joe]

71. Our friends aren't being shit on. Enemies of civil rights are being shit on. NT

[Zhade]

111. Where did you get the idea that you GIVE us our rights?

It doesn't work that way.

[yardwork]

118. Now don't be rude or we'll never get rights! We gotta ask real nice.

[mitchtv]

137. Lemme get this shit off my face

I can't here you I'm covered in strate Democrat shit!

[Jamastiene]

151. Rights are not won. Rights are bestowed by the government.

It's not a fucking lottery.

[Occulus]

182. Human rights are "won"?

WTF do you think this is- the Showcase Showdown on The Price is Right?

[Bluebear]

188. ---

:spray:

Not a funny topic, but sure answered funny :)

[Midlodemocrat]

50. Are you kidding? Seriously? The GLBT community should just

shut up and 'wait' for their rights to be handed to them???


Fuck that. And how dare you. HOW FUCKING DARE YOU?

[yardwork]

57. Thank you. Thank you very much!

:hug:

[mopinko]

70. that's not what i said, either.

jesus. like try, maybe you might try not f this and f that to someone who is here in a community of choice with you?
did i say- get back in the closet? no, i didn't. look. you have a new president that is going farther than any other to acknowledge your rights. after how many years of presidents who got there by demonizing you? you have come so far. we have come so far.
barack didn't win by demanding that people elect a black man. he won by building common ground. i'm not saying settle, or you don't deserve it. i am saying stop flaming your friends.

[Midlodemocrat]

73. Hey, genius. Know thy enemy.

I'm probably one of three most vocal STRAIGHT supporters of the GLBT community here and your comments sucked ass.

And, if you think that this issue isn't important, you are NOT a friend of the GLBT community. In fact, you're a fucking enemy.

And, if you don't like cussing, too fucking bad. I can't think of enough shit to throw at you for what you said upthread.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

102. Definitely top three

[Midlodemocrat]

108. Man. I LOVE you. And not in that whole sexual lesbian flvegan fantasy way.

I don't want to piss off your wife.


:rofl:

:loveya:

[yardwork]

115. I love you too, but not in that - you know, that gay way.

:loveya: I just love you.

[Midlodemocrat]

122. We don't live that far from each other. We should get together

I'm always around unless those damned kids have activities. Damned kids. :rofl:

[yardwork]

125. Great idea! Let's meet for lunch some weekend!

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

133. She'll make you pick up her wine tab

:hide:

(KIDDING, MIDLO!)

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

131. You need to come up to NJ

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

130. I love you, too

Actually, a few weeks ago, I was speaking to flvegan quite a bit on the phone. We were talking dog, though. I have since found out that he also finds that sexy.

:eyes:

:loveya:

[yardwork]

75. YOU are the only person "flaming" anybody in this thread.

Why do you persist in thinking that the OP is an attack on you or anybody except those who deny rights to gay people? If you don't deny rights to gay people, then why are you having hysterics? Did the OP mention you by name? Did they single you out?

WHAT is your problem?

[Zhade]

119. Our friends don't criticize us for discussing this topic.

Our friends don't expect us to have to bow and scrape to appease people too bigoted to accept that we have rights.

Our friends don't ask us to wait.

[Jamastiene]

152. McClurkin.

Yeah, sure.

[Jamastiene]

154. Fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuckity fuck fuck fuck.

Fuck this and fuck that and fuck it all, you fucking brat. You act like it is fucking against the fucking rules to fucking say fuck around here, for fuck's sake. :wtf: is your problem?

[IndianaJones]

155. who are you arguing with? nt.

[Zhade]

113. Thank you, my ally!

You get it.

[Midlodemocrat]

126. I do get it. I've gotten it for years. And the ignorance makes me sick to my stomach.

:loveya:

[mondo joe]

52. I'll pick my battles. Be assured, after Prop 8 I'll be very picky. NT

[Jamastiene]

157. VERY picky, indeed.

I feel the same exact way. :pals:

[Zhade]

97. "everyone who doesn't agree with you 100% of the time is not your mortal enemy"

Sure, but remember:

"Democratic Underground DOES NOT permit homophobic bigotry and DOES NOT welcome members who oppose equal rights for all." - Skinner

[yardwork]

103. Now, there you go burning bridges and stuff.

No human rights for you!

Seriously - thank you! :-)

[IndianaJones]

34. quite an ironic sig pic. nt.

[Bluebear]

42. I don't know if it's satire or worn proudly.

"Pick your battles" indeed.

[Deja Q]

24. Some have said President Lincoln was gay.

:shrug:

[RadiationTherapy]

44. People have been asking about you in El Loungo. nt

[mitchtv]

142. good one

you ARE bad

[Independent_Voice]

25. Tell him/her this: "Eventually, they will die off."

By "they," I mean the bigots who are spending their time and energy crusading against one group of people.

The progressives, liberal Dems, moderate Dems, liberal Republicans, moderate Republicans, classical conservatives, and Libertarians far outnumber the social conservatives. And the RW will continue to dwindle.

[Zhade]

127. That's actually a very, very good point.

But we should not have to wait - and we should definitely not be ASKED to wait.

[Arctic Dave]

27. I would tell them you love them. Like I told my gay daughter when she was 13.

Then go from there.

[ruggerson]

29. you're a good dad

:pals:

[Arctic Dave]

32. Thank you.

Unfortanetly some her gay friends parents aren't as open minded. Truely one of the saddest things I have seen in my life.

[ColbertWatcher]

28. I don't know what to say.

Tell the 13 year old this is the first step, and that we won't give up.

Also, fly your flag in solidarity:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=4424101&mesg_id=4424101

[stray cat]

38. He can't use the term married for his partner

[Maven]

45. Fantastic contribution.

No, really awesome.

Top notch.

:eyes:

[Midlodemocrat]

55. I'm to the point where I don't know why I even bother.

I can't imagine how you guys feel. I am SO frustrated about this. I feel as though I'm fighting the 'teh gays will cost us the 2006 election' all over again.

Ignorant assholes.

[yardwork]

59. I realize that its a small minority of jerks. Most DUers don't agree with the gay bashing.

Believe me, your posts are very, very welcome, at least to me. And I doubt I'm the only one.

[Midlodemocrat]

61. I'm just getting tired. I am SO glad that my three kids

will pick up the slack for me. The level of ignorance and intolerance takes my breath away. FFS, my 12 YEAR OLD gets it!!!! Why can't adults get it?????

It hurts my heart.

[yardwork]

79. It is wonderful to see how easily the younger generation gets it.

Really, your support is enormously helpful. I noticed it yesterday and the day before, too. Thank you - very sincerely.

[Midlodemocrat]

88. Interestingly, my husband and I were discussing this very issue this

morning at breakfast, because HONEST TO GOD, we didn't 'DO' this. We just didn't instill in them any sort of indoctrination of hatred and I'll tell you yardwork, if I can instill tolerance, anyone can. It just sort of happened. We never disparaged anyone based on skin color or religion or sexual orientation and they just picked it up. Like sponges they are.

Which leads me, the PhD in child and adolescent psych to believe, anecdotally at least, that you have to WORK at instilling hate.

Children apparently don't instinctively hate. Who knew? :sarcasm:

[yardwork]

99. I have nothing to add.

:toast:

[Zhade]

129. You're not. They are a breath of fresh air.

I'd like to take this opportunity to thank every single GLBT supporter on DU.

[yardwork]

156. I would like to add my thanks to yours. Thank you, huge majority of DU, for being supporters!

:toast:

[mitchtv]

145. They are in fact

mostly top notch, I recc'd

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

109. And we all know how THAT election turned out

Damned gays.

Oh wait...

[mondo joe]

51. Nor can he and his partner see each other if incapacitated in the hospital in most states.

Nor do he and his partner have any of the hundreds of rights associated with marriage.

[yardwork]

64. More than a thousand. More than a thousand rights associated with marriage.

Not for queers, though. We're abominations.

Edited to add: And sometimes we're rude.

[yardwork]

53. Plus, he can't have the more than 1,000 rights given to married people, even if he has a partner.

He will be unwelcome in many places of worship. He will be in danger of being attacked in public and possibly killed for "looking gay." He will be told that he is an abomination and that he will go to hell. He will be told that he can be "cured" if he prays hard enough and marries a woman. He will be told that there are very few laws protecting him from being fired or thrown out of his residence simply because of who he chooses to love. He will be subjected to vulgar jokes about his sexuality.

[Skittles]

39. how about girls?

strange how in this "historic moment" so few people recognize there's NEVER BEEN A FEMALE PRESIDENT and WE ARE OVER HALF THE F***ING POPULATION

[Zhade]

132. It's a valid point. That said, please move past the primaries already.

: )

[Skittles]

140. it's nothing to do with the primaries

it is a fucking DISGRACE

[ismnotwasm]

40. We tell him or her hate is hate

And that hate on the basis of sexual preference is wrong. We tell them that we feel human beings have certain rights, and one of them is to love and commit to the partner of their choice. That their sexuality is a natural and normal part of them, an important part but not the only part.

We encourage our straight children to be part of, or to help organize Gay/Straight alliances in schools. We take all of them no matter what sexual orientation to pride parades and celebrations if we can. We teach our young men that Gay doesn't mean feminized, and there is nothing wrong with "feminine" in the first place. We teach them real history, point out Gay poets and scientists who had to struggle emotionally and hide who they are from the world.

And unfortunately, we teach Gays of both sexes, in an age appropriate manner to be careful-- that hate is violence and leads to violence much as we teach our young women to be careful because misogyny, another form of hate, leads to rape and violence.

I surprised a Gay co-worker (male) the other day by telling him he'd be a great father and was he thinking about it, you know conversation like I would have with any young man of his age. I saw the "I can't they won't let me" in his eyes, then he shyly confessed he'd like to be a parent someday. I did that because I believe it to be true of this person, and I did it because I doubt he hears it much

I pray for the end of heteronormativity. And I'm not a praying girl.

[IndianaJones]

43. I don't know. nt.

[Stop Cornyn]

46. Tell them Thomas Jefferson was right: "A little patience, and we shall see the reign of witches pass

over, their spells dissolve, and the people, recovering their true sight, restore their government to it's true principles."

Look at the demographics on equal rights for gays: This is a generational prejudice which will dissolve with the passing of the McCain generation.

[rhett o rick]

48. Stay away from the Catholic Church and the LDS Church. nm

[Midlodemocrat]

68. Well, I'm a Catholic and I think I'm probably one of the most vocal

GLBT supporters on this site. I happen to be straight, married and a mom of three. Maybe education is the way to go. My husband is a born again Christian who has no hate or bigotry in his heart at all. Not one ounce.

[yardwork]

87. Shout out to Catholics! My partner is Catholic and so are her parents.

[Midlodemocrat]

90. LOL. We used to say my mom was going to be the next Pope.

She was as devout as they come and she absolutely lived the teachings of Christ. In fact, her Church dedicated an award for social justice to her after her death.

She was something. Not a bigoted bone in her body. Unless you were W. Then all bets were off. :rofl:

[rhett o rick]

173. Sorry if i offend, but i don't like it when the churches interfer with legislation. nm

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

114. Don't compare Catholics with the LDS

That's just fucked up.

[rhett o rick]

186. I did not compare. However, there are a lot of similarities.

Both are mega wealthy and willing to spend millions on legislation that oppresses people, humans, people that their gods are supposed to be looking out for. They are spending millions to influence legislation while they have many members of their churches live in poverty. The heads of the churches live like kings or popes. I do not care about either if they stay out of politics. They do not need tax deductions that come from my paycheck. Now that's what's fucked up.

[mopinko]

74. whatever.

i give up. nobody is in their right mind here. i hope it cools down around here before too many relationships are trashed.

[Midlodemocrat]

80. Right. It's the fault of the people who don't want to have their

rights quashed instead of people like you who are bigots at heart.

Good on ya. :eyes:

[ellius101]

81. Mopinko, you're right...

Nobody is in their right mind... as you put it. And why should they be??!!!
How would you feel if you were just stripped of your civil rights? A little sensitivity wouldnt be a bad thing on your part.
And this thing won't cool down. At least I hope not. NOt until everyone in this country has equal rights!

[yardwork]

83. Thank you, ellius101.

[ruggerson]

85. ** fist bump **

[Midlodemocrat]

92. Holy Crap!!! You're a terrorist? I KNEW IT!!!!!

:rofl:

:hug:

[yardwork]

95. Well he IS queer.

[Midlodemocrat]

104. He is???? I wish you had told me. Now I need hand sanitizer.

[yardwork]

110. Wait. He might not be - he might be straight but a fan of human rights.

Either way - terrorist.

[ellius101]

107. Being a terrorist....

does he have the right to marry? As terrorists do? Ironic isnt it?? Felons can marry, but not queers.
Or does being queer take away that right?
Heck, think its time to sign off, getting loopy :)

[yardwork]

128. Have a good evening. You're one of my new best friends!

[ruggerson]

100. I'm the bastard son of Bill Ayres

Instead of bombing buildings, I burn bridges.

:hug:

[Jamastiene]

161. ...

:spray:

I wish I could rec this post!

:rofl:

[Jamastiene]

162. ...

:spray:

[Zhade]

134. Thank you for that.

NT!

[mopinko]

153. you know, it's like when your siblings are fighting.

i dunno. it is getting on everyone's nerves, i suspect. i suppose i don't have anything constructive to say. or at least not anything that won't get taken the wrong way. but i find it sad to see people slicing each other up this way. to say nothing of being on the receiving end of said slicing. i guess it comes with the territory when you are a democrat. but really.
i'm not saying this for myself. i try not to give much of a shit what people in cyberspace think of me. but if people really expect others to be in the battle with them, they should treat them with a little more civility is all i was trying to say. and all i have seen a lot of people around here trying to say. you have no idea how many people irl would put you in a rubber room if you tried to tell them that i was a homophobe.
but i tell ya, i defended barack at the top of my lungs as a candidate, and i defend him today as my president. it is just plain stupid to be hatin' on the man. stupid. he stuck his neck out for gay rights, and because he is not perfect, he might as well be george bush. sorry, but that is just stupid.

i drop it here. people should feel free to put me on ignore. think what you want. but you are cutting off your noses to spite your faces. this is no way to get people into the trenches for you.

[ruggerson]

159. I repeat

where's the flamebait in the OP?

And what does it have (other than tangentially) to do with Obama? I was as happy as you that we control the WH, but, yes, it was a bittersweet night, because many people that I love also had their marriages destroyed. And many Dems voted to destroy them. Can you step out of yourself for a second to get it?

[mopinko]

165. if that is a sincere question, i will answer it in the morning. nt

[ruggerson]

166. It was sincere the first time I typed it

and it's sincere now. The OP was how I feel. The thought of the desperation of all those millions of gay teens, not to mention the children OF gay couples, keeps me up at night.

[mopinko]

168. me too.

feel free to not believe that. i'll post in the am.

[AntiFascist]

177. I'll say it on this thread as well...

we need to be tolerant of people who believe that marriage should be between a man and a woman. If we aren't tolerant then how do we expect people to be tolerant of us?

The CA gay marriage ruling really was quite groundbreaking and I'm sure that it comes as a big culture shock to quite a few people. Even, I hope, Prop 8 will get blown away by it. The shock will wear off and people like Obama will slowly come around because they will understand the basic truth to it. I'm not 'hatin on your man', after all I was one of his biggest supporters as well.

[Bluebear]

189. 'we need to be tolerant of people who believe that marriage should be between a man and a woman'

No, we don't.

Same sex marriage affects them not one iota, they are busybodies meddling in what does not even concern them, so I need to practice no "tolerance" for them.

[Imagevision]

138. tell them - anyone gives you shit about being gay? tell them to fuck off after you hit them with a

brick.

[Jamastiene]

143. You live in an uncivilized country that is not as evolved as much as so many other

countries in this world; a country that constantly tells that you are free and that you have rights, when you obviously are not and do not. Best of luck to ya, kid. Hope you can do more than my sorry apathetic generation did.

[Cali_Democrat]

144. NEVER GIVE UP

;-)

[Imagevision]

146. It's true, Americans do make a big deal out of sex...

[WhollyHeretic]

160. According to some here we tell them "shut up and stop complaining about the weight of the bus"

[begin_within]

164. We tell him that there is absolutely NOTHING WRONG with him, but that there are people who believe

that there is something wrong with him, and to avoid those people and never listen to them. That he is a beautiful, whole, complete and natural creation, and to always respect himself and love himself and to never hate himself.

[TexasObserver]

167. I think we have to tell them the truth: They're facing a lot of prejudice.

And it won't go away any time soon.

[QC]

169. Tell him to limit discussion of this issue to the Prop 8 Forum

so that we can share our thoughts on politicians' tuna salad recipes.

[yardwork]

170. LOL!

[ruggerson]

171. lol

[Bluebear]

175. --

Ain't it the truth.

[Withywindle]

174. It sucks so hard.

YOu tell him/her that s/he is perfect just as she is, that God don't make no junk, and that hir crushes and feelings are just fine for hir to enjoy.

That there are those don't appreciate hir and how beautiful s/he is, but that's just because they're ignorant. Tell her stories about all the great civil rights struggles, give him books about labor activists and feminist activists and black activists and tell hir that she gets to play his own part in a fight just like that. (Kids love romantic struggles, believe me; that will booster self-esteem like nothing else).

And tell that that yes, you do believe he or she can be President someday if she or he wants it badly. (After all, I have no doubt Black parents told their children this 30 or 20 or 10 or 5 years ago even if they didn't fully believe it was true. Barack's success took a LOT of Black people by joyous surprise.)

No matter what, though, drill into their heads that they are wonderful, beautiful people thoroughly worthy of love, and those who fail to pick up on that do so by their OWN deficiency. The homophobes are the ones with something vital that's wired wrong in the brain and the soul.

[Divine Discontent]

176. we tell them to hold on, and don't give up. I have a anti-suicide video on youtube for that,

and I tell young people I meet don't give up - they can change everything. I hate hearing young kids killed themselves and people wonder why... lots of times it's because they're GLBT.


my vid - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fx-kATL_QVQ

[CreekDog]

180. Well tell them that they can be anything

Because one day, one of them is going to make history the way Obama just did.

[OneBlueSky]

181. the other side would argue that a 13-year-old can't possibly know . . .

that s/he is gay . . . and that any thoughts of being gay were put into his/her head by the aggressive recruiting tactics of the "so-called gay community" . . .

when I was 13 (so long ago), I know now that I knew intuitively that I was gay . . . but at the time I didn't understand what that meant, and I couldn't even name what it was . . . I remember sneaking into the library to look up "homosexuality" in the encyclopedia and anywhere else it might be mentioned, only to find that what I was feeling was caused by a form of "mental illness" . . . the word "gay" still meany happy and had no relationship to what I was feeling . . .

at least things have changed enough so that today's 13-year-old can go online and find communities of like-minded young people who are feeling the same thing . . . s/he won't have to suffer the isolation and the self-doubt that we felt way back when . . . they may not be able to envision themselves as president -- yet -- but at least they can envision themselves . . .

[indigo32]

184. this is the sad thing about this

Kids get hurt too often.

just yesterday I was talking with my partner about her nephew. He asked his aunt for a ride to get his ear pierced. After confirming with him that this was discussed with his parents (and he had had it pierced in the past, I was with when she took him last time... helped confirm that it was positioned correctly ect...), she agreed and they were on their way. So halfway there she gets a call from his mother, she gave the phone to him, and could her her saying NO 'it's so gay! it's so gay!' (never mind that that idiocy is about 20-25 years out of date). This boy is 15 and very possibly gay, though not necessarilly, and getting messages from his parents that are almost as nasty as my partner absorbed growing up, and she is never going to overcome those messages, she is forever damaged by them. I can only hope things have changed enough for him, I think they have at least in the sense that his siblings are supportive of him. She does what she can within the framework she operates in, but it kills me every time I hear it. I think the kids still get let down by adults in their life FAR to often.

[Martin Eden]

185. Letter from a Vermont Mother

This seemed like a good thread for sharing this letter with those who may not have seen it.


This editorial is from Sunday's Concord Monitor.
Sunday, April 30, 2000
By Sharon Underwood
For the Valley News (White River Junction, VT/Hanover, NH)

As the mother of a gay son, I've seen firsthand how cruel and misguided people can be.

Many letters have been sent to the Valley News concerning the homosexual menace in Vermont. I am the mother of a gay son and I've taken enough from you good people.

I'm tired of your foolish rhetoric about the "homosexual agenda" and your allegations that accepting homosexuality is the same thing as advocating sex with children. You are cruel and ignorant. You have been robbing me of the joys of motherhood ever since my children were tiny. My firstborn son started suffering at the hands of the moral little thugs from your moral, upright families from the time he was in the first grade. He was physically and verbally abused from first grade straight through high school because he was perceived to be gay. He never professed to be gay or had any association with anything gay, but he had the misfortune not to walk or have gestures like the other
boys. He was called "fag" incessantly, starting when he was 6.

In high school, while your children were doing what kids that age should be doing, mine labored over a suicide note, drafting and redrafting it to be sure his family knew how much he loved them. My sobbing 17-year-old tore the heart out of me as he choked out that he just couldn't bear to continue living any longer, that he didn't want to be gay and that he couldn't face a life without dignity.

You have the audacity to talk about protecting families and children from the homosexual menace, while you yourselves tear apart families and drive children to despair. I don't know why my son is gay, but I do know that God didn't put him, and millions like him, on this Earth to give you someone to abuse. God gave you brains so that you could think, and it's about time you started doing that.

At the core of all your misguided beliefs is the belief that this could never happen to you, that there is some kind of subculture out there that people have chosen to join. The fact is that if it can happen to my family, it can happen to yours, and you won't get to choose. Whether it is genetic or whether something occurs during a critical time of fetal development, I don't know. I can only tell you with an absolute certainty
that it is inborn.

If you want to tout your own morality, you'd best come up with something more substantive than your heterosexuality. You did nothing to earn it; it was given to you. If you disagree, I would be interested in hearing your story, because my own heterosexuality was a blessing I received with no effort whatsoever on my part. It is so woven into the very soul of me that nothing could ever change it. For those of you who reduce sexual orientation to a simple choice, a character issue, a bad habit or something that can be changed by a 10-step program, I'm puzzled. Are you saying that your own sexual orientation is nothing more than something you have chosen, that you could change it at will? If that's not the case, then why would you suggest that someone else can?

A popular theme in your letters is that Vermont has been infiltrated by outsiders. Both sides of my family have lived in Vermont for generations. I am heart and soul a Vermonter, so I'll thank you to stop saying that you are speaking for "true Vermonters."

You invoke the memory of the brave people who have fought on the battlefield for this great country, saying that they didn't give their lives so that the "homosexual agenda" could tear down the principles they died defending. My 83-year-old father fought in some of the most horrific battles of World War II, was wounded and awarded the Purple Heart.

He shakes his head in sadness at the life his grandson has had to live. He says he fought alongside homosexuals in those battles, that they did their part and bothered no one. One of his best friends in the service was gay, and he never knew it until the end, and when he did find out, it mattered not at all. That wasn't the measure of the man.

You religious folk just can't bear the thought that as my son emerges from the hell that was his childhood he might like to find a lifelong companion and have a measure of happiness. It offends your sensibilities that he should request the right to visit that companion in the hospital, to make medical decisions for him or to benefit from tax laws governing inheritance. How dare he? you say. These outrageous requests would threaten the very existence of your family, would undermine the sanctity of marriage.

You use religion to abdicate your responsibility to be thinking human beings. There are vast numbers of religious people who find your attitudes repugnant. God is not for the privileged majority, and God knows my son has committed no sin. The deep-thinking author of a letter to the April 12 Valley News who lectures about homosexual sin and tells us about "those of us who have been blessed with the benefits of a religious upbringing" asks: "What ever happened to the idea of striving . . . to be better human beings than we are?"

Indeed, sir, what ever happened to that?

[carlyhippy]

187. OMG that is such a sad letter

oooh that just makes me angry after reading that. These people are hurting no one, they just want to live their lives happily, the homophobic bastards should be beat for the hurt they cause. AARRGH
Carly

[IndianaJones]

190. from what I've seen lately, tell him/her to STFU and get in the back of the bus. nt.

[grahamhgreen]

191. Gay is the new black!