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I always thought marriage was a CULTURAL institution, not a religious institution.

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bertman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-09-08 10:39 PM
Original message
I always thought marriage was a CULTURAL institution, not a religious institution.
Marriage, in its many forms has been a part of most cultures for thousands of years. And this does not refer just to Christian communities. We're talking everyone from the Sumerians to the Amazonian tribes. The blessings for marriages have been bestowed upon the newly married by their tribes, their families, and only later, by their churches.

Why is it that the Christian churches have been allowed to claim marriage as their sacred institution? This seems to fly in the face of historical evidence and anthropological evidence that goes back millenia.

Am I wrong about this?

Even if I am, this gay marriage ban is bullshit! In my humble opinion, of course.

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liberalmuse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-09-08 10:56 PM
Response to Original message
1. To all those who voted 'Yes'.
Are you proud? Does it feel good to destroy these people's lives? Nice god you got there. Please keep it away from me.








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Clovis Sangrail Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-09-08 11:01 PM
Response to Original message
2. marriages were a social contract but were also religious events
religion being a part of the mix isn't 'new' or recent.
Even the Sumerians attached religious significance to marriage (witness the sacred marriage between Inanna and Dumuzi )

Most cultures since have attributed some religious significance to marriage, though I think that is largely because for many of these people religion was really the only real option available to legitimize the contract.
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Dragonfli Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-09-08 11:01 PM
Response to Original message
3. I was Married At City Hall - Is City Govt A Religion Now?
Learn Something New Every Day!
If I had known the justice was a christian preacher I would never have subjected my wife to it.
(We are Witches you see and don't much care for the history of burnings that those "believers" share).

Seems they have found a new group to burn. I will stand against them in the hopes they never get a chance to pull out the matches again - there is no end to the hate they can foster.
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TexasObserver Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-09-08 11:03 PM
Response to Original message
4. It is. Religions often try to co-opt marriage, however.
Edited on Sun Nov-09-08 11:57 PM by TexasObserver
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jobycom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-09-08 11:28 PM
Response to Reply #4
6. I think you mean "co-opt."
Most organized religions are the opposite of co-ops. :)
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TexasObserver Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-09-08 11:58 PM
Response to Reply #6
9. Yeah. Oops. Watching a basketball game.
although I hestitate to call it that
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jobycom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-09-08 11:24 PM
Response to Original message
5. "Christian" marriage started as a Roman government arrangement.
Edited on Sun Nov-09-08 11:24 PM by jobycom
Christians then took it over as their own.

But it's a lot more complicated than that, because we call just about any family arrangement "marriage," when the various institutions throughout history vary widely. In pre-Islamic Arabia, for instance, neither gender was limited in marriages, so you could have a man with several wives, each of whom could have had several husbands. Since the father wasn't as important in such an arrangement, wives lived with their father's extended clan, and the kids were raised by the mother's family. Often "marriage" was little more than a system of alliances between nomadic tribes.

In ancient Greece and Rome, marriages weren't religious, and didn't have ceremonies. There was no concept of monogamy for the man, and for the woman the only purpose of monogamy was to ensure the parantage of any children produced. Marriage was mostly a property arrangement. Since Greece had no qualms about sex--with either gender--men visited prostitutes or priestesses when they wanted. Many also kept younger male lovers (or older male lovers, depending in perspective, I suppose). Often an older man would take a teenage as an apprentice in his business, and this was almost expected to be a sexual relationship. Again, Greeks did not see sex as a moral issue, only a legal issue involving parantage of children. This apprenticeships were similar in most respects to marriage. Most of us have read "Plato's Symposium" and heard the romantic ideas of love between the lover and his beloved.

Romans had two types of marriage--one was little better than slavery, the other was based more on equality between two property owners. The legal arrangement didn't have to be between men and women, since it was more of a property and family arrangement than a sexual arrangement, though the sexual aspect was expected.

When Christians took over the functions of the Roman government in Europe, they did so through the Roman bishops and priests in European cities and towns, and so marriage came to be seen as a religious sacrament. This may have blended with the Jewish roots of Christianity, and maybe even some pagan ceremonies, but basically, since Roman civil government pulled out of Europe, only the Christian government remained, and many public functions became religious.

None of that really matters, except as an example of how marriage is not one monolithic institution that all cultures have practiced the same way since time began. Even in our own history, divorce used to be difficult and in some places polygamy was allowed. Both divorce and monogamy were fundamental redefinitions--civil and religious--of marriage. Yet many men on their second or third marriage don't seem to grasp that they once would not have been allowed, or would at least have been shunned by church and society, for the marriages they enjoy today.

The bottom line is that however you define marriage, religiously or civily, discrimination should not be allowed.
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Oregone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-09-08 11:45 PM
Response to Original message
7. Religion is culture
And the problem is that people are confusing the cultural/social/religious aspect of "marriage" with the legal construct in which legal rights are derived from (which is also called civil "marriage"). Although sharing the same name, they are very different. The former (religious/social/cultural marriage) can be engaged in by anyone, but is largely symbolic and ignored by the state. The later is the legal institution endorsed by the state which only select groups can engage in (which implies discrimination).
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Siyahamba Donating Member (890 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-09-08 11:52 PM
Response to Original message
8. Exactly.
Those who say "civil unions for all" or "get government out of the marriage business" are seceding marriage to religion and taking it out of the hands of the people. Currently two atheists can get married by a justice of the peace without religion playing any part.
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bertman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-10-08 12:18 AM
Response to Original message
10. Thanks for all the info and opinions--and the great photos!!
Isn't it infuriating that my wife and I, raised as Catholic and Southern Baptist, but no longer churchgoers and I not even a believer, are CONSIDERED TO BE MARRIED and recognized as such; but, our friends who are lesbians who are a practicing Catholic and and a (mostly) observant Jew and who were married by a priest and a rabbi, ARE NOT CONSIDERED TO BE MARRIED?


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