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Yet Another Reason NOT To Bail Out The Big 3 Automakers

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leftchick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-10-08 08:43 AM
Original message
Yet Another Reason NOT To Bail Out The Big 3 Automakers
Edited on Mon Nov-10-08 09:25 AM by leftchick
on edit: Until they agree to embrace this type of technology instead of shunning it....



Is This AFS Trinity 150 MPG SUV Being Suppressed By The Auto Industry?




http://www.scientificblogging.com/news_releases/afs_trinity_150_mpg_suv_being_suppressed_auto_industry


<snip>

The company's decision followed actions by the LA Auto Show to muzzle AFS Trinity from highlighting the 150 miles per gallon fuel economy of its XH150 prototype vehicles. The suppression by the automakers of information about technologies such as this raises serious questions about the judgment, vision, intentions and capabilities of the leadership of these companies, said Edward W. Furia, Chairman and CEO of AFS Trinity. Such conduct by the automakers, who are currently seeking tens of billions of taxpayer dollars, ostensibly to develop fuel efficient vehicle technologies, is evidence they are reluctant to embrace solutions they didn't invent.

<snip>

Implications for Auto Industry Stimulus (aka Bail-out) Package

Furia noted that the Associated Press (AP) reported yesterday that Detroit automakers are once again on Capital Hall in Washington, D.C. seeking a bail-out and forecasting their own demise if they don't get it. This is certain to be a major issue that the new U.S. Congress and President-Elect Obama will consider. An emergency bail-out could even become an issue in the remaining days of 2008 for the current U.S. Congress, he said.

The action that the LA Auto Show took to muzzle AFS Trinity has implications for such a bailout, Furia said. The idea that the Detroit automakers, through their LA Auto Show agents, would seek to suppress interest in a super-efficient vehicle technology developed by a small company such as AFS Trinity truly challenges the imagination, particularly given the global energy security landscape through which America must navigate in the next several decades, Furia said.

Whether the behavior of the Greater Los Angeles New Car Dealers, and, by implication and association, the carmakers they serve, is based on NIH (not-invented-here) considerations, or something else, it raises questions about whether the current leadership of the American auto industry possesses the perspective, character, capability and vision to escape the death march in which they currently appear to be locked, no matter how large a bailout the next Congress and President-Elect Obama are willing to support.

As dangerous as Detroit's problems may be, they also represent an enormous opportunity to reject antiquated attitudes and behaviors and create millions of new jobs and feed unprecedented economic growth, precisely because these problems are so large and so critical to address. Simply put, Furia concluded, a stimulus package that allows current auto industry leadership to remain in control of the destiny of this critically important industry as it confronts this unprecedented crisis -- and opportunity -- is something that the new Congress and President-Elect Obama should really think twice about.
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sabbat hunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-10-08 08:52 AM
Response to Original message
1. Do you realize
How many thousands of jobs, good paying union jobs, will be lost if even one of the Big 3 go under. Plus all the related jobs in sub contractor companies, jobs in towns that depend on the factories to help keep the local economy going?

We need to keep the big 3 afloat. At the same time the money given to them must come with strings attached, major reforms at the management level must be done, starting with executive compensation.
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leftchick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-10-08 09:23 AM
Response to Reply #1
6. I sure do
the auto industry affects my husbands business. He agrees with me that these companies need to embrace these new technologies instead of suppressing them. The US taxpaper should only pay them our friggin dollars on pre-conditions such as this. These corporations are corrupt to the core and need to be overhauled.
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goforit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-10-08 10:18 AM
Response to Reply #1
17. Fear??? Come on!!! Think of how many more new jobs will be created with new Technology
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Romulox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-10-08 10:21 AM
Response to Reply #17
20. The market for perpetual motion machines is virtually LIMITLESS!
:rofl:
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droidamus2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-10-08 09:04 AM
Response to Original message
2. Don't just give them money
I like President Obama's idea that any help/bailout for the auto industry would be strongly tied to those companies retooling and getting serious about producing more environmentally friendly non-gas based vehicles. The CEOs of these companies have shown over and over again that when push comes to shove they will opt for building the big gas guzzling big profit vehicles. I heard that one of their excuses is that with high 'union costs' they need the big profits. Any help for GM, Ford, etc. should be a collaborative effort between the government, the unions and the management of these companies to insure that they get headed in the right direction and that everybody benefits not just upper management. The big problem I see with these bailouts is that a lot of people in upper management are used to gaming the system to take as much money out of it as they can so any solution has to make sure that they are not allowed to use the money as their own personal piggy bank.
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MindPilot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-10-08 09:08 AM
Response to Original message
3. All the money in world funneled to corporations won't help anything
Edited on Mon Nov-10-08 09:12 AM by MindPilot
if either the coproration doesn't produce a product people will buy, or people don't have enough confidence in the future to make that purchase.

A new car is a huge long-term expense for most of us, and who is going to go tens of thousands into debt for 4 or 5 years when a next week may bring a layoff?

Personally I'm not a good example because I have bought exactly one new car in my entire 54-year life; that was a 1987 Ford truck and I still have it. My daily driver is much newer; it's a '95 Nissan.

Give me a $10,000 tax credit and I'll seriously consider a new Ford. Hell, with a $10k credit, I'll consider a new Tesla!
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Dhalgren Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-10-08 09:10 AM
Response to Original message
4. This is unconscionable.
The "Big 3" deserve to go under with this kind of behavior.
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liberal N proud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-10-08 09:15 AM
Response to Original message
5. What about the million or more jobs reliant on the Auto Industry
Supplier and other directly related jobs.
And then there are all the business that support the communities where automakers have facilities.

Big three collapse, America will collapse. There will not be enough soup to go around it that happens.
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leftchick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-10-08 09:24 AM
Response to Reply #5
7. I agree but....
see post number 6.
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shaniqua6392 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-10-08 09:28 AM
Response to Original message
8. Give them the money if, and only if, they use it to produce
cars that get over 50 miles per gallon. There has to be legally binding contracts to go along with this money that it can only be used for this purpose. They need to retool a few of the plants that they have idled recently and start putting out cars by next fall in the 2010 models. They have to do something or millions of people will be out of jobs. 1 in 7 jobs here in Michigan is related to the auto industry in one way or another. The auto companies are asking for bridge loans at a low interest too. This is different than the $700 billion that we just gave away to the banking industry.
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formercia Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-10-08 09:38 AM
Response to Reply #8
11. They can do it
Edited on Mon Nov-10-08 09:41 AM by formercia
I once owned a Ford EXP. It was an escort with an aerodynamic body. I routinely got 47 miles to the gallon on the highway.

I would probably still have it if I had not wrecked it.



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YOY Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-10-08 09:34 AM
Response to Original message
9. We need new companies to run a new technology.
Edited on Mon Nov-10-08 09:38 AM by YOY
Same UAW. Same locations even. New companies that take the best and most open minded experienced folks from the old and leave the good ol' boys with their industry damning connections behind.

Where the hell is it written that we NEED these dinosaurs around to continue to drop the ball?

This bailout shit is banking on thinking like conservative. Things change. New companies arrise. Imagine how much WORSE the computer industry would be (yes Microsoft has more faults than California and Japan combined) if IBM ran the OS business?
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leftchick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-10-08 09:36 AM
Response to Reply #9
10. Imagine the salary and bonuses they would give themselves
on the way out. That would have to be another condition.
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YOY Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-10-08 09:41 AM
Response to Reply #10
12. One of the keys to running a business is obtaining steady continual returns and creating trends.
Edited on Mon Nov-10-08 09:42 AM by YOY
First movers are either big losers or gigantic winners. It's a gamble but diminishing returns on a failing model type that runs on the same fuel is asking for the kiss of death.

The stupid old men running things and and their stupid old connections to other stupid old men are to blame and not the workers. They deserve nothing but 2 weeks severence pay. The workers and inventive engineers deserve to be riding the crest of change and new technology. They do so elsewhere but the conservative mentality has sunk too far into some industries.

If federal money needs to be added to start this sucker (like it did back at the beginnings of silicon valley) than so be it. Better that then asking for the same thing to happen down the line.
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sattahipdeep Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-10-08 01:56 PM
Response to Reply #10
26. Burning through cash at a pace of more than $2 billion a month
Congress recently approved $25 billion in loans for auto manufacturers, but executives say that is not enough to keep the industry afloat. :eyes:


http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/09/washington/09auto.html?ref=us
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Kokonoe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-10-08 09:45 AM
Response to Original message
13. AFS does not get 150 miles per gallon.
It gets 20 mpg from what I read.
AFS Trinity's 150-MPG mileage estimate is based on a typical week of driving: 40 miles, 6 days per week and 80 miles on one weekend day each week. The first 40 miles of every day are electric, with gasoline being used only for distances beyond 40 miles. For this driving profile, the XH-150 uses up to 2 gallons of gas to travel 320 miles, which works out to 160 mpg, which the company rounds down to 150 miles per gallon.

150 mpg is misleading
AFS could drive it 32 less miles on the weekend and claim it gets 720 mpg per their rules.
150 mpg = Lie. AFS should not have turned down the exhibit.

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leftchick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-10-08 10:12 AM
Response to Reply #13
15. that was just an example of the technology they have avoided for years
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TreasonousBastard Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-10-08 10:13 AM
Response to Reply #13
16. It's not misleading, it's complete bullshit...
Nobody computes mileage like that-- they're being cute.

What they have is a Chevy Volt-- a battery operated car with a generator attached, but they are saying that they replaced much of the battery with supercapacitors. Supercaps are NOT proven technology yet.



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Romulox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-10-08 09:55 AM
Response to Original message
14. The FTC would not allow to advertise 150 MPG on TV, either.
It's treating plug-in energy as "free", which it is not, neither in the economic nor the environmental sense. :hi:
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goforit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-10-08 10:20 AM
Response to Reply #14
18. Use of the internet /papers / mail may be more effective!!!
Edited on Mon Nov-10-08 10:20 AM by goforit
And while they're at it have Al Gore jump on the band-wagon.
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Romulox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-10-08 10:21 AM
Response to Reply #18
19. I see; move to a less regulated medium in order to decieve gullible buyers? Might work! nt
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workinclasszero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-10-08 10:23 AM
Response to Original message
21. Freepers and Walmart agree with you
They want to kill the UAW and all other unions as well. Lets just stab all workers in the back and only bailout wall street crooks and banks! Yeah, thats the ticket!:eyes::eyes::eyes:

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Kolesar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-10-08 10:56 AM
Response to Original message
22. 100% electric is a better solution than this "pluggable" serial-hybrid vehicle
Why lug an internal combustion engine around if you are trying to accomplish efficiency?

I agree with Treasonous Bastard that the 150 mpg claim is misleading.
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StreetKnowledge Donating Member (921 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-10-08 01:48 PM
Response to Reply #22
25. Battery technology is not advanced enough for viable cars yet
And the latest batteries in amounts that will power cars costs gigantic $$$. GM ate six-figure losses on each of its NiMH batteried EV1s.
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paparush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-10-08 11:03 AM
Response to Original message
23. Why Washington Cannot Prevent Depression - Read it and weep
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petgoat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-10-08 01:32 PM
Response to Original message
24. I used to promote government investment in a Marshall Plan for failing cities and industries.
Edited on Mon Nov-10-08 01:34 PM by petgoat
"If it worked in Europe after WWII, why can't it work here?" I asked,
until someone pointed out to me that the Marshall Plan was instituted
so that in a devastated Europe, credentialed Doctors could go to work
as Doctors instead of spending their days fixing roads to earn turnips.

The Marshall Plan simply sought to restore what was already there,
rather than to try to create something out of nothing.

The Big 3's record of failure and their anti-innovational corporate
culture have resulted in private investors (wall street) abandoning
them. There is no reason to think public investment will improve them
any.

The best thing that could happen is if some laid-off engineers got
together and showed some can-do Yankee ingenuity and started developing
their ideas that had been stifled in the company for years and started
new companies. The Big 3 need to be pressured to release their
engineers from any and all no-competition agreements.
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