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raccoon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-10-08 11:52 AM
Original message
"Masterpiece Theater: God on Trial" about some Auschwitz inmates holding a trial
to determine if God is guilty of murder for the Holocaust.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/masterpiece/

Anyone else watch it last night?

I remember we used to hear "Never again," about the Holocaust. But of course it did happen again, in Rwanda and other places, I'm sure.

I could easily see it happening here. But I guess I'm preaching to the choir.



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ananda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-10-08 11:53 AM
Response to Original message
1. Iraq too.. particularly Falllujah.
nt
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-10-08 11:54 AM
Response to Original message
2. Given the right circumstances, it can happen anywhere
though the U.S. is actually a less likely place for it to happen than many parts of the globe.
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grantcart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-10-08 11:54 AM
Response to Original message
3. "easily see it happening here" -- really?
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Rabrrrrrr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-10-08 11:56 AM
Response to Reply #3
5. It is happening here - not by rounding up and gassing them,
but by letting people stay homeless, have no health care, and be hungry, and just slowly die from those.

Ours is a low-tech, low-key holocaust, that is killing more people than the Germans ever managed to do.

Although, from a technical semantic standpoint, we're not killing them. We're simply not stopping them from dying.
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grantcart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-10-08 12:25 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. mindless dribble lilke "killing more people than the Germans ever managed to do"

trivializes the holocaust the millions that the Germans executed and the tens of millions that died in the military conflict of World War II.


I am interested in any links you have that substantiates the absurdly ridiculous claim that our "low-tech, low-key holocaust" is killing "more people than the Germans ever managed to do."
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Rabrrrrrr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-10-08 01:52 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. Children's Defense Fund offers some grim statistics:
http://www.30hourfamine.org/portal/pages/about/world_hunger.html

And that's just hunger based. Hunger deaths, in fact, DO trivialize the deaths due to military conflict in the 20th century because hunger deaths in the last 50 years are more than all war-based deaths in the 20th century (according to the Children's Defense Fund, though I don't think they are including self-inflicted deaths, such as Stalin's internal genocide).

Let us not forget the 3 million who die every year from malaria, a disease that the US could wipe out in a year (as we did in Panama and our own country) for less than we spend in one month on the Iraq war.

If you don't think hunger, lack of health care, and lack of clean water are issues worthy of us doing something about, then, well, let the silent holocaust continue.
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grantcart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-10-08 03:41 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. You are an absolute insult to the memory of Holocaust survivors


Since you obviously are impaired by a reasoning process that peaked in junior high school let me make this very clear.


It has nothing to do with unfortunate loss of life for other reasons.


It has everything to do with trivializing the HOLOCAUST.



From 1978 to 1985 I worked with the Intergovernmental Committee for European Migration. This organization was formed in the ashes of WWII to relocate the millions of refugees who were stranded in Europe. It worked in refugee camps and it hired a lot of its talent from refugees who had lost all of their families. In 1978 I joined it and had the great privilege of working with real Holocaust survivors. Nothing made them more angry than the flippant use of the Holocaust in superficial rhetorical rants.

No, the Holocaust is not "easily to happen here" and now to try and back your allegation that an America is experiencing a "low-key holocaust" is just the kind of verbal BS that people will take from a Freeper site and laugh at.



So convoluted is your logic is that you want to build a parallel to Malaria to the gas chambers at Auschwitz. Beyond the continued trivialization of the Holocaust you make the following completely untrue statement.




Let us not forget the 3 million who die every year from malaria, a disease that the US could wipe out in a year (as we did in Panama and our own country) for less than we spend in one month on the Iraq war.



You spread careless lies without remorse.

Here are the facts about Malaria;

1) Malaria is a tropical disease. It has never been a widespread public health threat in the United States


Malaria is presently endemic in a broad band around the equator, in areas of the Americas, many parts of Asia, and much of Africa; however, it is in sub-Saharan Africa where 85– 90% of malaria fatalities occur.<24> The geographic distribution of malaria within large regions is complex, and malaria-afflicted and malaria-free areas are often found close to each other.<25> In drier areas, outbreaks of malaria can be predicted with reasonable accuracy by mapping rainfall.<26> Malaria is more common in rural areas than in cities; this is in contrast to dengue fever where urban areas present the greater risk.<27> For example, the cities of Vietnam, Laos and Cambodia are essentially malaria-free, but the disease is present in many rural regions.<28> By contrast, in Africa malaria is present in both rural and urban areas, though the risk is lower in the larger cities.<29> The global endemic levels of malaria have not been mapped since the 1960s. However, the Wellcome Trust, UK, has funded the Malaria Atlas Project<30> to rectify this, providing a more contemporary and robust means with which to assess current and future malaria disease burden.


2) Control of Malaria breeding grounds is tied to a country's over all development
Malaria has been eliminated in a number of more advanced developed countries but remains a very large widespread threat. In more advanced third world tropical countries it is easy to eliminate Malaria by attacking their breeding grounds, not by medicine. There is a direct correlation to a country's development status, it's public health system and the degree that Malaria is endemic.




3) There is no vaccine for Malaria

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malaria

Although some are under development, no vaccine is currently available for malaria; preventive drugs must be taken continuously to reduce the risk of infection. These prophylactic drug treatments are often too expensive for most people living in endemic areas. Most adults from endemic areas have a degree of long-term infection which tends to recur, and also possess partial immunity (resistance); the resistance reduces with time and such adults may become susceptible to severe malaria if they have spent a significant amount of time in non-endemic areas. They are strongly recommended to take full precautions if they return to an endemic area. Malaria infections are treated through the use of antimalarial drugs, such as quinine or artemisinin derivatives, although drug resistance is increasingly common.

4) The United States Army has been a leading world wide agency to advance the research on Malaria.


I cannot speak to the current status of their involvement but during the 1980's while working in refugee camps I was surprised to find US Army officers in the camps of Thailand. The reason for my surprise is that there were very few officers attached to the Embassy and this was a large group. There are not a lot of Americans in a refugee camp and after work around the campfire you get to know a lot about people. This was a group of highly motivated American Physicians who were Army officers who were dedicating their lives to the elimination of Malaria. We had members of CDC on our staff and they confirmed that if you wanted to find the latest and best scientific research on Malaria in the world you would rely on this group of American Army officers.

The reason that they were so dedicated to it was because the Army anticipated that at some time there was a good possibility that the US Army would be fighting in the tropics again and that they anticipated that they would lose more lives from Malaria than from combat. The reason for their fear? Malaria was developing into a drug resistant strain for which there was no treatment.




So you are able to trivialize the Holocaust and insult dedicated scientists who are spending long postings in the jungle to try and eliminate tropical disease.

To top it off you coat it all with a patronizing message. I spent 8 years working in Refugee camps and while I didn't get Malaria I did get Dengue Fever

(This is manifested by a sudden onset of severe headache, muscle and joint pains (myalgias and arthralgias—severe pain gives it the name break-bone fever or bonecrusher disease), fever, and rash.<3> The dengue rash is characteristically bright red petechiae and usually appears first on the lower limbs and the chest; in some patients, it spreads to cover most of the body. There may also be gastritis with some combination of associated abdominal pain, nausea, vomiting, or diarrhea.)


Just because you have a superficial interest in the suffering of others does not give you license to rip the meaning of words as you do when you flippantly do remarking in a Palinesque way that the Holocaust could 'easily' happen here. Nobody would be more angry at that depiction than Holocaust survivors.

Your professed interest in the suffering of others does not entitle you to trivialize the Holocaust nor does it entitle you to make up lies about a disease or about those that combat it.

Your professed interest in the suffering of others does not prevent you from making a complete ass out of yourself and the opposite is also true, pointing out the complete idiocy of your statements does not mean that you are not committed to actually doing something to reduce the suffering of others.

If you do think that a 'silent' holocaust is occurring then why are you posting on the internet? Why don't you do something to stop it. Why don't you spend a few years in the underdeveloped world actually doing something to stop it?

Or you could just continue to undermine the real suffering by millions of people who faced real gas chambers, real torture, real medical experimentation by making flippant trendy and completely inaccurate historical references.









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Rabrrrrrr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-10-08 04:46 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. I bet you're a riot at Scrabble games and charades!
Sitting there with your little rulebook, checking every jot and tittle, challenging every move with some obscure rule you pull out of your ass, which your friends then laugh at you for, because you've so misread it.

Wow - I say that Malaria is killing millions every year, and call me liar - a LIAR! you called me - and then you prove me wrong by.... pointing out that malaria is a widespread, awful killing disease (which is what I said, of course, but I point that out only because you seem to easily miss plain speech); I say that the United States could easily wipe malaria off the face of the earth, and you prove me wrong by.... pointing out that our military easily eradicates it wherever it has an inkling that it might need to be sent someday. Just as we did in Panama, which I mentioned in my post above.

:eyes:

Christ.

I'm really curious how me saying "We could easily end malaria" somehow trivializes the work that scientists are doing - it does the opposite, my unfortunately misreading friend, it celebrates and admits the wonderful work of the scientists - that's what "easily get rid of it" means: we have the know how, we have the technology to do so. All we lack is the will - though perhaps once the republicans are out of control, we'll change that.

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grantcart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-10-08 05:48 PM
Response to Reply #10
15. You are a seriously deluded individual - even Democrats have Palin


Lets put this in slow motion

The following statement is completely and totally idiotic



a disease that the US could wipe out in a year



There is no none vaccine for Malaria. Efforts to control it with medicine have actually made it more dangerous and more lethal. C



Your the one that has gone way off point nit picking. Your pick polemical attacks that you really don't know anything about but that has nothing to do with the main point.

The main point is that by referring to the Holocaust in a flippant way comparing developmental problems with the most horrific crimes of the modern world you trivialize the word 'Holocaust' and what it means. Eventually it won't mean anything at all. Find a survivors group and ask them if they agree with your casualy use of Holocaust.

Your little wispy "Ours is a low-tech, low-key holocaust" is the kind of sentiment that undermines the true memory of the Holocaust, trivializes its cost and lessens its sting.





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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-10-08 04:49 PM
Response to Reply #3
11. Sure.
In the early 1930's Germany was the envy of the civilized world.

One of the basic lessons of the Holocaust is that it can easily happen anywhere.

That's what's behind the whole "Never Again" movement.
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grantcart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-10-08 05:20 PM
Response to Reply #11
12. Being vigilant against it happening again is one thing


That is based on a clear principle that you do not dilute the Holocaust by equating it to pedestrian events or eventually the word will have no power.


Trivializing the Holocaust by saying that current conditions equal the horrific crimes is another see reply #5


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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-10-08 05:26 PM
Response to Reply #12
13. There's a famous thought experiment...
Edited on Mon Nov-10-08 05:56 PM by Bornaginhooligan
usually involving crisis management, or environmentalist, but it doesn't really matter.

Which is worse:

Slow, widespread use and release of a toxic chemical which kills 100 people across the country every year over ten years?

Or the catastrophc train accident that kills five hundred people at once?

I'd argue the former is worse, but most people's knee jerk reaction is the latter.
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grantcart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-10-08 05:44 PM
Response to Reply #13
14. clearly the former is worse - it was intentional

The latter may have hurt more people.


BTW I passed through an intersection minutes before a truck accident in Thailand that killed 300+


A gasoline truck with an additional trailer sped through an intersection to get the green light.

The truck kareemed across the street and struck a dormitory with a 100 people inside.

The trailer opened up on impact and the gasoline rolled down the sloping street and after it went under over 100 cars it caught fire and all the cars burned with the people inside. I got home and looked on in shock that I missed the intersection by a few minutes.
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-10-08 05:53 PM
Response to Reply #14
16. Actually, no.
The former kills 1,000 people, the latter kills 500 people.
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grantcart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-10-08 05:55 PM
Response to Reply #16
17. I missed something then # 13 states 100 people died
but I see the point of the experiment more clearly now
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-10-08 05:56 PM
Response to Reply #17
18. fixed
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Rabrrrrrr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-11-08 11:37 AM
Response to Reply #14
19. And yet, above, you don't think that the former is worse.
Which side of the fence are you on?

The Holocaust (notice the capital H, thus I'm talking Nazi-driven Holocaust), which was, we can all agree I hope, beyond description in terms of evil and horrific. Or the low-key, low-tech holocaust of apathy that is killing far, far more people than Hitler ever did, and killing them simply because we don't fucking care?

The latter here is the same as the former above - the slow leach of toxic chemicals that kills 1000 over ten years, versus the one-shot killing of 500.

You have an awful lot of emotional attachment in this, which I can plainly see, but I don't think it diminishes the Holocaust at all to also say that the deaths of millions, deaths which are all preventable through medicine, clean water, and food, is also just as bad and just as awful and we're all as guilty of being part of that system as the Nazis are guilty for being part of their system.

Clearly you don't see it that way, and I'm not going to convince you otherwise - but whatever arguments you shower at me will never convince me that there IS a low-key, low-tech holocaust going on amongst the third-world, minorities, and children in America and around the world.

The opposite of love is apathy - and it matters not whether slaughter is happening through hate that compels active destruction, or through apathy which stands by idly and allows destruction to happen. Both are equally evil. The latter might even be more evil than the former, both because it allows far, far more people to die, and also because it's total ethical disengagement from suffering. Killing people directly, evil as it is, at least has a level of integrity to it.
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meegbear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-10-08 11:56 AM
Response to Original message
4. Wow! I'm sorry I missed it!
I'm gonna catch it on a repeat for sure!
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Misskittycat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-10-08 12:13 PM
Response to Original message
6. I saw it. Quite good, with outstanding Brit actors.
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