Do you think an 8 year old should ever be tried as an adult?

[QueenOfCalifornia]

Unless you live under a rock you have heard about the 8 year old boy who gunned down his father and male boarder in Arizona. Bits and pieces of the crime have come to light but the details remain fairly hard to come by. One thing that I have heard over and over is that the D.A. will be trying the boy as an adult.

Oh wonderful DU... What do you think? Should an 8 year old ever be tried as an adult and please, please elaborate.

BTW - I do not think an 8 year old should be tried as an adult. I will be elaborate on my reasons in this thread should one develop.

You may want to read about this particular event - numerous stories are available but here is a link: http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/11/10/national/main4587265.shtml?source=mostpop_story

[Avalux]

1. At 8 years old, kids still think a man in a red suit comes down the chimney

and delivers presents.

They have no grasp on what's real and what isn't. They don't understand death is permanent.

[Disturbed]

5. Anyone who has promoted that an 8 yr. should be viewed as

an adult must be quickly fired from their job.

[QueenOfCalifornia]

8. The man in

the red suit? Is he redistributing the wealth? (I'm sorry... I couldn't help it.)



But I agree with you. I have an 8 year old and a 9 year old and they believe in Santa.

[AZ Criminal JD]

106. No 8 year old or 9 year old believes in Santa

They tell you that because that's what they think you want to hear. They also think they will get move presents that way.

[QueenOfCalifornia]

109. Speak for your own kids

my 8 year old daughter was arguing with her 9 year old brother who told her "There is no Santa!" - bless her heart, she laid out all the facts for him. She said "I know there is a Santa because every Christmas I get some presents that ACTUALLY SAY; From Santa" She went on... "Besides, Mommy always tells the truth and she said there is a Santa." :)

She will forgive me when she finds out but for now I love knowing she is such a sweet, innocent little girl.

[Betsy Ross]

If he had killed someone other than his father (and other man)

the father would have been charged with the crime. No?

[Happyhippychick]

2. ABSOLUTELY NOT!!!!!!!

Sorry for yelling. I have an 8 year old, I'm in mental health, and I feel very passionately about this topic. An 8 year old who is capable of murder...well, there are only two possibilities. 1) severe mental illness or 2) severe abuse.

[BlueCaliDem]

21. I second this motion. eom

[GOPNotForMe]

27. here here! nt

[Caliman73]

54. Agreed

All clinical evidence points to the fact that 8 year old children, as sophisticated as they are, are not capable of understanding concepts like an adult can. Not to say that the boy should be sent on his merry way. He needs to be held, observed, and treated. A child that has the capacity to carry out murder is as Happyhippychick pointed out, very sick or very damaged, more than likely both.

[Wickerman]

3. People who don't understand that an 8 year old's brain is so very different

than an adults have no business setting law, policy or standards for the rest of us.

[bread_and_roses]

108. Exacly

I can't believe there is a single yes above (well, I can belive it, having some some extremely trogdolyte anti-child posts on this site over the years, but it depresses the hell out of me).

[Ashy Larry]

4. I think he needs to be in a mental health facility.

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

6. This boy is Not being charged as an adult and he will not stand trial. He is not competent at 8 yrs

to participate in his defense. This is a non-issue.

[Lyric]

They're attempting to try him as an adult.

Under Arizona law, children as young as eight can be charged with crimes. Even though the town’s police chief understands that an eight-year-old does not “just decide that he’s going to shoot his father and shoot his father’s friend for no reason,” police are pushing to have the boy tried as an adult.

http://babble.com/CS/blogs/strollerderby/archive/2008/11/09/eight-year-old-charged-with-murdering-his-father.aspx

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

48. I saw the police chief on tv this morning & he said that the boy was being charged as a child. Video

http://today.msnbc.msn.com/id/26184891/vp/18424824#27641739

[QueenOfCalifornia]

16. That is not my

understanding.

As of an hour ago the D.A. is still saying he will try to have the boy tried as an adult.

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

52. Then the DA is batshit crazy for wanting that. I heard the police chief this morning

and that wasn't brought up and he said he was being charged as a child.


Here's the video
http://today.msnbc.msn.com/id/26184891/vp/18424824#27641739

[AZ Criminal JD]

107. The police don't charge anybody

That is up to the D.A.

[DesertFlower]

7. no. he's a child. nt

[XemaSab]

9. Never

An 8-year-old is still a small child, with no capacity to understand what death is, what he did, or why he's being punished.

I say the kid should not even be punished at that age, beyond what he's already gone through. What would putting him in jail accomplish? Nothing.

[Art_from_Ark]

104. When I was 8 years old, I understood what death was

I got several lessons up close-- my aunt died, my best friend died of leukemia, a boy down the street was hit by a car and died, my dog was hit and killed by a car just a half a block away from where the neighbor kid was hit. I had no trouble understanding that death was permanent. The hard part was empathizing with the neighbor kid's family.

[phantom power]

10. I think he should be treated as (very) mentally ill.

It raises the question, is the child sociopathic? I get the impression that when people see sociopathic behavior in children, there is some instinctual reaction of wanting to try the child as an adult, because they sense the lack of remorse, or something.

As far as I know, nobody knows how to cure a sociopath, so something like life imprisonment may be warranted, but either way, trying the kid as an adult isn't going to fix whatever is wrong with him.

[fed_up_mother]

40. And are sociopaths mentally ill?

Isn't there a difference between a mental illness and a personality disorder?

[phantom power]

62. I would defer to a psychologist on that question. To me...

a sociopath has a mental illness, and a personality disorder is a disorder of the mind. But psychologists might think about that differently.

[fed_up_mother]

98. Actually, I tend to think it's the opposite

I think sociopaths have a personality disorder, and not necessarily a mental illness.

[JDPriestly]

99. Yes. Personality disorders are harder to treat I have heard.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

41. Actually, I'd like to know what the motive was first.

The vast majority of child killers kill their mother's abuser.

[zanne]

59. I would like to know that, too.

When I first heard about it, I though it had to be an accident. But shooting first his father, then shooting the other man in another room is no accident. I can't imagine what goes through an eight year-old's head when he's gunning down two people.

[phantom power]

64. Definitely. I have no idea why the boy did what he did.

Maybe I shouldn't, but I feel confident that even if he killed them for a good reason, he's going to need psychological treatment.

Trial as an adult would be counterproductive, no matter what.

[Breeze54]

102. WOW!! You have already accused him of mental illness and now he's guilty without a trial?!

:wtf:

Don't you think you're jumping the gun, just a tad!?!

Gheesh!!

What ever happened to 'innocent until proven guilty'!?! :banghead:

[QueenOfCalifornia]

110. Well....

he went next door and told the neighbor he killed his father and the guy who rented a room from them. Then he admitted it to the police. Granted, there has been no trial and guess what? i do not believe that there should be one unless he is tried in a juvenile court.

[opihimoimoi]

11. Look to the Bible for answers....Bad kids get punished....

What to do??

Who knows??

[QueenOfCalifornia]

29. First

I NEVER look to the Bible for any answers. Sorry... If i did that i would hate the Gays and not be able to eat shell fish.

I have NEVER spanked my children. The Bible says I should be using a "rod" on them.

I know what to do and that is to find out what made this kid shoot and kill two people and get him a lot of help.

[kenny blankenship]

87. Disobedient children are to be stoned to death

For much smaller offenses than murder (Deuteronomy 21:18-21) . For murder...well, what's a punishment beyond stoning to death? Anybody know?

Whatever that thing is is what Arizona must do to be in compliance with the Bible and God's eternal love.

[Lyric]

12. Absolutely not.

I have an eight year old little boy. There is absolutely nothing adult-like about his thought processes--the very notion of him being tried as an adult for a crime would be ludicrous. Most eight-year-old's don't even properly understand what "death" is, much less murder. I don't think it's even possible for an eight-year-old to understand the process of a trial enough to make a plea, much less be held accountable by a jury.

Our society (rightfully) does not consider eight-year-olds "adults" for the purpose of consenting to sex, buying a beer, signing a contract, or gambling. Why on earth would we think that they are "adult" enough to be held to the same exact criminal standards as a twenty-five year old who killed someone? Does anyone REALLY believe that there's no difference between the way an eight-year-old and an adult thinks?

[Stinky The Clown]

13. I post this as an absolute statement: "No"

No equivocation.

No qualifiers.

[mondo joe]

14. NO. The entire point of minor status is that kids don't have adult capacity.

An 8 year old can't be held accountable in the same way an adult can.

[uppityperson]

15. I must live under a rock. That said, I voted no.

[tnlefty]

17. No way, no how and i can't believe that the ages at which

children are even considered to be tried as adults seems to be dropping.

[Starry Messenger]

18. absolutely not.

What is this, the 18th century? Poor kid. I suspect severe abuse was involved. If not and he was rather a powder keg due to behavioral issues than he belongs in a mental health facility.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

19. Is he white or black?

That's an important distinction many people make when it comes to decide how harshly they punish children.

[Name removed]

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[HiFructosePronSyrup]

36. Other way around.

Black kids are much more likely to receive harsher punishment than white kids.

Jena 6, f'rinstance.

[QueenOfCalifornia]

35. Only

fuckwits determine how to distribute justice based on skin color - but I do get your point.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

38. Only fuckwits would try him as an adult.

At least 7 fuckwits so far have responded to this thread. Maybe eight.

[QueenOfCalifornia]

39. Agreed

and it's crazy but I wanted to know how many people here really do not understand how different an 8 year old brain is wired.

[yardwork]

20. It's unspeakably horrible to try an eight year old as an adult for murder.

[stray cat]

22. How about an 11 years old who ambushes classmates after pulling a fire alarm

to get them to come outside? ie Jonesboro AR. However, I do agree even 11 years olds are too young to try as adults

[QueenOfCalifornia]

44. I do not believe

an 11 year old should be tried as an adult either.

I was a pretty sophisticated 11 year old but I was also unaware of a lot of factors and did not understand big pieces of the world around me. An 11 year old who does insane shit is an insane 11 year old kid.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

53. Neither of those boys was tried as an adult.

Both were released. One became a petty criminal and is now back in prison after stealing a credit card and marijuana possession.

The other, apparently, is a law abiding member of society.

[stray cat]

84. True - I think the law in AR was they could not be

[OffWithTheirHeads]

23. Yes! George bush should be tried as an adult.

nt

[pleah]

50. You betcha!

:evilgrin:

[Lyric]

24. Whoever the weirdos are who voted "Yes," do us all a favor.

If you are ever summoned for jury duty, please find a way to get out of it. You are obviously not suited to make rational judgements about other people.

[Name removed]

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[Lyric]

32. So is our entire criminal justice system, apparently. n/t

[Name removed]

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[AlCzervik]

25. Absolutely not.

[Mike 03]

26. I voted "No." This crime happened about two hours away from me.

This child needs psychiatric counseling, and it needs to be determined that the two individuals he killed were not abusing him.

As the uncle of a wonderful eleven year old girl, this crime shocked me. But when I first heard about it, I knew there had to be some reason.

[Name removed]

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[TexasObserver]

33. NO. I don't know what went on in this kid's head, but he's either justified or crazy.

He lacks the mens rea to be guilty of murder.

[Name removed]

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[HiFructosePronSyrup]

61. Uh...

mens rea pretty much does require a grasp of what's right and wrong.

[Name removed]

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[TexasObserver]

77. Look up "mens rea," so you'll know what it means.

If they've changed the meaning, let me know, and I'll call the State Bar and alert them.

[liberalmuse]

34. FUCK no!

and anyone who thinks so should really do some extensive self-examination, because you are fucked up.

[camera obscura]

37. Absolutely not

[acmavm]

42. That's an absolute new low in American 'jurisprudence'.

[Name removed]

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[HiFructosePronSyrup]

47. False dichotomy, eh?

I guess horrible logic is a matter of opinion.

[Name removed]

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[HiFructosePronSyrup]

58. Link one post besides your own saying he shouldn't recieve justice.

Best of luck finding one.

[Name removed]

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[HiFructosePronSyrup]

66. And I see you conform to the George Bush School of Thought.

Interesting.

[Name removed]

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[HiFructosePronSyrup]

70. In my own opinion, you're welcome to think however you want.

Or not think however you want.

People like you make life more fun.

[Name removed]

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[HiFructosePronSyrup]

76. Yes, but I don't hold you guilty.

You lack the mens rea to realize how badly you're losing this conversation.

That's part of what makes this so fun.

[Name removed]

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[HiFructosePronSyrup]

81. Given the responses of others...

between you and me, I'm not the one who has to worry about what other people think.

[Starry Messenger]

Truer words.

You killed him.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

92. I prefer grape popsicles, please.

[Starry Messenger]

96. .

[QueenOfCalifornia]

65. Using your

logic 8 year olds should be allowed to drive, drink and be sent to fight stupid ass wars.

[Name removed]

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[Caliman73]

73. Why is this so cut and dried?

If we don't fry the kid then we are rewarding the behavior? You are making a great many statements, with no type of explanation. Oh and if you are using the Bible as reference, then you are going to have to deal with those pesky commands to "love your enemy" and to "judge not..."

No one is saying that the kid should be let alone to go out and play. He needs to be held for observation and treatment. He is a danger to himself and others at this point.

[Name removed]

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[QueenOfCalifornia]

86. Aren't

you supposed to be over at WalMart stocking up on firearms and ammo?

[acmavm]

79. Wow! I bet you're an absolute laugh riot at parties. Is there much call for

not-so-funny clowns?

[SweetieD]

83. It's not a new low, its an old low, that shouldn't be revisited.

The youngest juvenile to be officially executed in the US for his crimes was 11 years old. We have come a long way since then.

[slampoet]

46. Only If she's in the Body of a 44 year old and Governor of Alaska.

[pleah]

49. NO! Never! n/t

[mudesi]

51. How could ANYONE who claims to be liberal vote yes? (nm)

[cordelia]

55. Absolutely not. n/t

[az chela]

56. I do not see how an 8 year old can be tried as an adult

but the child needs 24 hr a day supervision and reevaluated ever few years.There must be a lot to this story that we know nothing about

[Gwendolyn]

68. I still somehow believe the mother figures in the story, as in, the child wanted to be with her.

But no, a child of 8 tried as an adult is Dickensian and frightening.

[QueenOfCalifornia]

75. My guess is

since the mother is gone - she may have been a victim of abuse and ran for her life. Granted, it is a guess but as Bornagainhooligan said, a child kills the abuser of the mother more often than not.

[Gwendolyn]

85. It's all conjecture, but I think so too.

The mother came for a visit days before the child killed his father, so in his childlike world, he might've thought he could "change things" and be with her, avenge her, etc... on the other hand, it's also possible that she was unfit, and manipulated the kid. It just seems unlikely that her visit was a coincidence. But either way, sad that so much adult crap is often foisted on little children.

[Blue Diadem]

113. I think so too. Especially since she'd just visited. Plus his Dad just remarried in Sept.

I agree, a child at 8 should not be tried as an adult.

[screembloodymurder]

72. No, but I think the adult that gave him the gun should be.

The kid needs help.

[QueenOfCalifornia]

95. His father

is the one who thought he needed to learn how to use a gun...

[bunkerbuster1]

82. No, never, and what the fuck is wrong with people who would think otherwise?

Fucking hell.

[redqueen]

88. What you said.

There are (at least) 12 people here who make me wonder if they are really DUers.

[Batgirl]

89. When I was 8, I and most of my peers still believed Santa Claus was a real person.

The idea of trying a grade school child as an adult is beyond insane.

[childslibrarian]

90. I teach 8 year olds

They are in no way, shape, or form, adults.
If you don't believe me, volunteer at an elementary school.

[QueenOfCalifornia]

91. CAVU

is no longer with us.

He had a pizza delivery. :P

[gollygee]

100. I figured that was coming

Maybe they're a bit less stealthy since the election is over?

[QueenOfCalifornia]

111. He could

spell. Which is itself stealthy. :rofl:

[stray cat]

93. If no - it is mandatory that we release them at the age of 21 regardless

I'm absolutely against trying an 8 year old as an adult but whenever we do allow someone to not be tried as an adult that means regardless of any or no rehabilitation they are released into society at 21 with no parole and no record and no one the wiser who may run into them. Lets hope they all are rehabilitated and if not that they are not dating your son or daughter.

[LSK]

94. I guess I have been living under a rock

And no he should not be tried as an adult.

[Orsino]

97. As soon as they build an eight-year-old who can vote...

...and is legally entitled to give consent in all things.

[Breeze54]

101. We don't know at all if this kid actually DID fire the gun... he was interrogated without a lawyer

or a guardian/parent with him. What a crock!! :grr:

An 8 yr old, in those circumstances, is liable to say anything.

No, I do NOT think an 8 year old should be tried as an adult.

That's absurd!

What a kinder, gentler state Arizona is having Senator McLame representing. :sarcasm:

[Midlodemocrat]

103. No. Never. And, I would weigh in on what I professionally think

is going on, but I don't know enough.

However, a child who deliberately and maliciously pulls the trigger not once, but twice and ends two lives is by no means 'competent to stand trial'. I have no ideas what the particulars are here, but I've treated enough children who were being abused to suspect that there is a great deal more to the story than has been reported. And, frankly, that's how it should be. He's a baby.

[LisaL]

105. This child is not an adult, but it's alleged he killed 2 people.

What should be done with him exactly? Would any of you be comfortable having the kid living in your house? By the way so far no signs of abuse were found.
"On the "Today" show, Melnick said there were no indications the boy had been in trouble before.

"There's no record of any problems in school, no reported abuse," he said.

Wood indicated to KPHO that he, too, had not heard any assertions the boy had been abused, despite media assertions that abuse could be related to a motive in the case.

"At this point in time, we haven't seen anything indicating abuse," Wood said. "We haven't heard of anything; we're not aware of anything.""


http://www.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/11/10/child.charged.arizona.killing/index.html

[QueenOfCalifornia]

112. Facts will surface

and no matter how fucked up he is, he should be put in a safe place and treated. I follow the thinking that he should be kept until he is deemed safe to release - That is what they did with Ed Gein - he was never tried but put in a mental hospital - if the kid has a true psychiatric abnormality, he needs to be kept where he can't harm others. He should not be in a place where older boys can get to him.

It is sad all the way around.