My Last Word on Prop 8

[Toasterlad]

Well, probably not. But now that it looks like things might be calming down a bit, I'm hoping I can post a few thoughts I've had without provoking any knee-jerk reactions from anybody.

We've all indulged in the blame-game quite a bit over the past week, and to no good purpose that I can see. Hopefully, we've all cooled down somewhat, and can all agree on the following points:

1. The ones to blame for Prop 8 passing are the ones who voted YES on it, regardless of race, religion, age, sex, or political affiliation. Those who voted NO do not bear any blame, by association or otherwise.

2. Pointing out that a disproportionately large percentage of African-Americans voted FOR Prop 8 does not, in and of itself, make one a racist, but instead highlights a real issue within the community which needs to addressed.

3. Pointing out that a disproportionately large percentage of Latinos voted FOR Prop 8 does not, in and of itself, make one a racist, but instead highlights a real issue within the community which needs to addressed.

4. Pointing out that a disproportionately large percentage of Mormons, Catholics, and various other religious denominations voted FOR Prop 8 does not, in and of itself, make one a religious bigot, but highlights a declared initiative by these organizations to prevent gay people from getting married. This also needs to be addressed.

5. Pointing out that a disproportionately large percentage of old people voted FOR Prop 8 does not, in and of itself, make one an ageist, but instead highlights a problem that will go away with time.

6. Assigning BLAME is divisive and counter-productive. However, determining WHY people voted the way they did is essential to ensuring that these reasons can be eliminated with proper education.

7. Gay people don't want to hear about how we should "settle for civil unions" or that we're "pushing too hard for marriage". The argument is offensive and infuriating, especially coming from straight people who are able to marry whomever they wish. No matter how well-intentioned you are, no matter how much of a friend to the gay community you believe yourself to be, no matter how important your point, I can assure you that we are not interested, and we will not receive your words with good grace. If you are, indeed, a friend to the gay community, you will refrain from publicly expressing your support for civil unions, especially HERE, for at least a few months.

8. Gay people, who are understandably hurt and angry by the results of the Prop 8 election, MUST refrain from scapegoating and alienating our friends and allies. We will NOT make progress divided into separate factions, which is exactly what the Yes on 8 people are counting on. We must ALL work together, or we will fail separately. Our enemies are the people who voted Yes on 8: not "blacks" or "Latinos" or "religious people". No one likes it when people assume that we have a group identity; we must not assign a group identity to others. In particular, it is very inconsiderate to our black and Latino GLBT brothers and sisters, who have been caught in the middle since last Tuesday.

9. If you don't support equal rights for gay people, you are not welcome here. This is not my policy: this is Skinner's policy. You are free to your own opinion, but you are not free to express it here. It will be deleted, and you yourself will most likely be banned. Please use another forum to express your bigoted points of view.

10. Spring Awakening, this past year's Best New Musical, is closing in January. If you have the means, I highly encourage you to head to Broadway and see it before it goes away. The score is phenomenal.

Thanks for reading, and I hope that I haven't said anything that anyone finds offensive. If you would like to discuss any of the above points with me, I would be happy to do so, but please do so civilly. If you do, I promise you a snark-free response, however much that may pain me personally.

Let's find a way to all work together to get this heinous travesty removed from law.

[robinlynne]

1. It has not passed. there are still 2,800,000 uncounted ballots. ahem.

[BlueCaliDem]

3. Still?? Nearly 3 million uncounted in California?? eom

[yardwork]

144. Three other states passed anti-gay laws and constitutional amendments last Tuesday.

Florida and Arizona changed their constitutions to permanently outlaw gay marriages, and Arkansas made it impossible for any single people to ever adopt children. Since Arkansas previously passed a constitutional amendment outlawing gay marriage, that means that no gay person will ever be able to adopt any children in Arkansas.

The problem is much bigger than just Prop 8 in California, which is also probably the most easily remedied of the hate legislation passed in many states over the past eight years.

[kwassa]

2. I like this part

"No one likes it when people assume that we have a group identity; we must not assign a group identity to others."

and this part
"Pointing out that a disproportionately large percentage of Mormons, Catholics, and various other religious denominations voted FOR Prop 8 does not, in and of itself, make one a religious bigot, but highlights a declared initiative by these organizations to prevent gay people from getting married. This also needs to be addressed."

The one group you didn't address in your otherwise excellent post were black voters for Prop 8. Are they free of the bigot descriptor too, now?

[Toasterlad]

4. To Me, ANYONE Who Voted "Yes" On 8 Is a Bigot.

It doesn't matter what color they are. I think it's ridiculous to blame all African-Americans for those who voted yes. However, as I said in my second point, I think it's ludicrous to fail to acknowledge that a disproportionate number of black people voted for Prop 8. Are blacks, as a group, responsible for the passing of Prop 8? Of course not. Is there a serious problem with homophobia in the black community? Absolutely.

[kwassa]

8. oh well, I thought this was going to be a productive discussion

You want to fling bigot around, go right ahead.

I thought you wanted to build bridges to possible allies, not alienate them.

Foolish me.

[mondo joe]

12. If people want to be bigots, they ought to be called bigots. NT

[kwassa]

15. Do you want their votes or not?

[mondo joe]

16. I'm not getting the bigot vote. NT

[NMMNG]

70. I wouldn't suck up to the KKK for votes nor would I have the audacity to ask black people to.

I wouldn't suck up to the Neo-Nazis for votes nor would I ask Jewish people to.
And I'm not going to suck up to rabid homophobes for votes. I don't care that they use their religion to defend their intolerance. Bigotry is bigotry is bigotry.

[Toasterlad]

75. Miss You, Buff!

BTW, my belated congratualtions to you and Sapph on your once and future legal marriage. We'll get your rights back!

[NMMNG]

184. Thank you

And we'll keep fighting. These bigots will lose and fall by the wayside just like all the others have. I just hope it's in my lifetime.

[greeneyedboy]

162. exactly. n/t

[Zhade]

78. You think we should kowtow to bigots in the name of political expediency?

Good thing you never gave MLK advice.

[Toasterlad]

13. I'm Not Sure How You Justify a Non-Bigoted "Yes" on 8.

I'd be glad to discuss it with you, but if you're trying to make a case that there's a reason for voting yes on 8 that's not bigoted, you've got your work cut out for you.

[kwassa]

21. Bigot is name-calling that makes the caller feel better.

Calling someone a bigot might give you some satisfaction, but it shows zero intent on trying to understand why they voted the way they did.

Most of these people are not so much bigots as people who have not been educated on the issue. They might simply see themselves as voting in favor of something that is not taking away anyone's rights, because they are voting for their traditional image of marriage. They don't think it through, necessarily. This is where they COULD be engaged.

Call them bigots, they hear about it, they'll vote against you forever.

[mondo joe]

24. We'll just have to outlive the bigots. They're on the decline anyway.

:-)

[kwassa]

28. you really don't get it.

These people could help you, and you would rather insult them.

[mondo joe]

31. I'd be truthful. And I'll outlive, outspend and outdance the bigots.

:hi:

[Zhade]

81. How can people who vote to take away our rights HELP us?

NT!

[123infinity]

163. "These people" aren't about to help us. That's because they are BIGOTS.

Jeezusfuckingchrist, it's not rocket science.

[Toasterlad]

34. Believe Me, I Get No Satisfaction From It

I totally agree with you that we need to understand WHY people voted yes on 8. That was the point of the OP. But just because someone doesn't MEAN to be a bigot, doesn't make them NOT a bigot. The people who voted yes on 8 - again, regardless of race, religion or any other "group" dynamic - were all, presumably, blessed with free will. Therefore, they must accept responsibility for what was a bigoted vote, no matter their motivation.

I am very willing to reach out and attempt to understand, but that understanding must be a two-way street. I am very willing to be educated as to the cultural and/or religious rationale for the yes votes, as long as those yes voters are open to being educated as to why their vote is regarded as bigoted. If they are not willing to do so, they are certainly not going to change their opinion.

[kwassa]

47. then don't use the B-word

I don't think all of them are bigots, though some definitely are.

You have no idea why they voted the way they did. I am sure that most have never conceived of this as a human rights issue, yet you are ready to label them bigots without understanding their reasoning.

In fact, most here are ready to judge based on one exit poll and nothing else!

I understand people are angry, but they need to restrain this broad-brush attack until better evidence is at hand.

[Toasterlad]

56. It Is Not a Broad-Brush Attack to Call a Bigot a Bigot

I'm sorry that you disagree with the concept, but I think it's pretty clear: voting against same-sex marriage is bigoted, regardless of the motivation. Therefore, those who voted against same-sex marriage are bigots.

There is NO reason for voting against same-sex marriage that is not bigoted. None. NO ONE gets a pass for "not understanding". That's what a bigot IS - an ignorant person. That doesn't mean bigoted people can't be educated. In fact, bigoted people MUST be educated. Part of that education involves that they acknowledge HOW their behavior is bigoted.

[kwassa]

59. Alright, you've lost me, have a good evening.

[Toasterlad]

68. I'm Really Sorry You Feel That Way

I do want allies, but I am not going to pretend that anyone who voted for Prop 8 had ANY kind of "valid" reason for doing so. Being a black person doesn't make one a bigot. But voting for Prop 8 DOES, whether one is black or not. It saddens me that you would try and justify that bigotry.

[Zhade]

86. He lost you at "they must be educated"?

And yet above you called for that same education.

[mondo joe]

63. Silly. It's "the B-word". Don't you wonder when "bigot" became a dirty word on DU?

Hmm.

[Le Taz Hot]

121. It's not a dirty word.

Just inappropriately applied and so often that it's lost it's impact. That's too bad as it USED to have real meaning.

[mondo joe]

127. And it's meaning is......?

[Le Taz Hot]

135. The definition hasn't changed

but by being overused and applied inaccurately and indiscriminately, it's lost the impact it once had.

[mondo joe]

145. You'd think so. But given that to certain *allies* it's a word not to be used, it must

still have some impact.

[yardwork]

148. How is the word "bigot" being applied inaccurately?

[Le Taz Hot]

153. I'll refer you to Post #120

n/t

[yardwork]

156. I read it, still don't see evidence of the word "bigot" being used inappropriately.

Can you show me a post that uses the word "bigot" inappropriately? And, if said post is a violation of DU rules, it needs to be alerted upon.

[Zhade]

84. Just because people don't know they're acting like bigots doesn't mean they're not bigoted.

NT!

[Zhade]

80. But their traditional image of marriage IS bigoted. That's the problem.

NT!

[mondo joe]

82. Like the one-time traditional view of who sits where on the bus.

Can you imagine someone one DU arguing that that wasn't bigoted?

[Zhade]

87. Oh, I can think of a couple, sadly.

NT!

[Psyop Samurai]

85. I agree, kwassa...

Most of these people are not so much bigots as people who have not been educated on the issue.

I get it, I really do. We alienate potential allies with that kind of mindset. I respectfully ask my fellow GLBTers to consider this point. It does not diminish us in any way - in fact, quite the opposite. Think about people you know in real life. How many people are simply oblivious? Oblivious DOES NOT equal enemy. Let us not make it so.

I'm wondering if you feel similarly about some of the accusations of racism that have occurred recently. Do you think that some of it may have been too broad-brushed? Could some of it have been hurtful to some well-meaning people, as well as inhibiting best progress?

[mondo joe]

88. Rosa Parks didn't offer her seat on the bus to a bigot for a vote.

Can you think of a major civil rights advance that was achieved by kissing up to bigots?

[Psyop Samurai]

114. No, I can't...

And I'm trying to determine what constitutes kissing up to bigots and what doesn't. I'm not entirely sure. At the moment, I'm assuming the best intentions of a DUer, and am curious for a response.

[Toasterlad]

98. Look, Just Because Someone Can Change Doesn't Mean They're Not a Bigot!

I really don't see why the two of you are having a hard time with this concept.

Quite frankly, it's a bit much to ask for the people who've just been denied their basic human rights to worry about the sensibilities of the people who voted to take them away.

The point that you and Kwassa seem to be arguing is that the bigots who voted for Prop 8 might be converted from being bigots if we pretend they're not bigots. That seems pretty ludicrous to me.

I totally agree that many of the people who voted for Prop 8 did so out of ignorance, and can be educated around to the correct position. But they also must be called on their bigotry. Failing to do so legitimizes their vote. There is NO justification for voting yes on Prop 8. Ignorance has NEVER been an excuse for doing the wrong thing.

[Psyop Samurai]

111. Ok, so this well-established consensus...

Without question, it's a bit much to ask an aggrieved party to worry about the sensibilities of their transgressors. Well, guess what - a lot of things are bit much. Is it an outrage? You bet. And I've eaten plenty of it. I could give examples from other areas of politics that make that look tame.

But I'm not even talking about our transgressors, but rather, DUers who live among and identify with their community. Is it more important to be right, or to win? We agree that many who voted out of ignorance can be educated. Can that be done without concern for the sensibilities of those who would do the educating? Maybe they are dead wrong. Maybe you're absolutely right.

btw, I'm not in cahoots with kwassa, and there were two parts to my post.

I understand that this is a nerve (though it puzzles me why), and I will be happy to concede brandishing the word bigot, as soon as I'm convinced that it best serves our goals.

Of course, the whole idea of education and outreach is predicated upon achieving a majority for basic human rights, which it shouldn't hinge upon at all.

[Zhade]

115. Would you agree that the people we would label bigots are acting in a bigoted manner?

Even if they're not aware of their bigotry?

[Psyop Samurai]

116. Oh, absolutely...

I don't see how there could be any question about that.

[Toasterlad]

119. No One Is Going to Start a Dialogue By Saying, "Look, You Bigoted Asshole..."

I think you can be right, AND win. We WILL win; it's inevitable. The only variable is how long it will take.

We don't have to be confrontational with bigots, but if they don't understand that they are, in fact, bigots, how exactly do you expect them to change their minds?

And it's a "nerve" because asking us to treat the people who voted to take away our basic human rights with respect is kind of fucked up, especially when you follow it up with "lots of things are a bit much". I've never been particularly swayed by responding to some unfair situation with "life is unfair". We should be working to MAKE it fair, not excusing it. You don't make it fair by pretending it's not UNfair.

[kwassa]

158. That is exactly what you and others are doing.

(I know I will deeply regret stepping back into this)

I don't understand why it so important screaming "bigot" at someone WHEN NOBODY KNOWS WHY THESE VOTERS CHOOSE TO VOTE THIS WAY. The idea they are bigots is an ASSUMPTION. Some most definitely are, but we don't know who or why at all.

Does calling black voters bigots make you feel better? What exactly is the point of doing so? What does it achieve??????

Do you really thing you can persuade anybody of anything by calling them a bigot? They will only be insulted and turn against you, as insulted as some gays here feel over the implication that they being called racist. Most of these black voters probably have no idea of it as a human rights issue because they have no particular reason to think about it at all. They are insular in their community, and the social traditions are conservative. Not everyone sees the world through the lens of the gay community.

This kind of talk travels all over the Internet. This thread will pop up in Google quite easily, and the black blogs will pick it up. Keep on calling them bigots, and see how advances your public support.

[mondo joe]

160. I'm fine with calling any bigot a bigot.

I don't know why you think bigots of different races should be treated differently.

[kwassa]

174. Who said that I did?

It would be refreshing if you responded to what I actually wrote.

[mondo joe]

183. Point by point:

I wrote: "I don't know why you think bigots of different races should be treated differently."

You responded: "Who said that I did? It would be refreshing if you responded to what I actually wrote."

In post #23 you wrote "flinging the bigot word against black people alienates me big time".

[Toasterlad]

166. Give Me a Reason to Vote for Prop 8 That Is Not Bigoted

If you can do that, I will drop this argument.

You seem to have a problem understanding what the word "bigot" means. Lack of understanding is a CAUSE of bigotry, it is not an excuse for it. I believe whole-heartedly that many of the African-American yes voters had a profound misunderstanding of the issue, and of the rights to which gay people are entitled. That does not excuse their vote. If they voted yes, they are bigots, regardless of their motivation.

I am trying VERY hard to keep this discussion civil, and I regret that it has been drawn off-course for what I consider a meritless pissing contest. But I am rapidly losing patience with the idea that the people (of ANY race) who voted to revoke the human rights of my people are being victimized. It is a baseless, divisive, and insulting argument, and I am done with it.

"Black people" did not cause Prop 8 to pass. The people who voted for it did, and ALL of them must take responsibility for it, no matter what their motivations. Until you - and they - accept that, we will continue to make NO progress.

[QC]

171. "Does calling black voters bigots make you feel better?"

Does race baiting make you feel better? It must, because it's pretty much all you ever do around here.

[kwassa]

172. You didn't respond to my question.

Care to give it a try?

[QC]

173. I would if I thought you were sincerely interested in a real discussion.

However, your agenda has been perfectly clear for some time now.

[kwassa]

175. I've been sincerely interested for a long time.

But literally NO ONE responds to the points I make.

[Toasterlad]

176. I've Responded to EVERY Point You've Made.

You've yet to give me a non-bigoted reason to vote for Prop 8.

[kwassa]

180. No, you haven't at all.

Most importantly, you and no one else has responded one iota to the major concept that if you call people bigots, you will not win them to your cause.

Vast deafening silence on that point. It is the essential point I'm trying to make, and you and no one else seems to get it.

[mondo joe]

181. Your "major concept" is fallacious.

Making nice with bigots doesn't win bigots over.

We have to beat them - not kiss their asses.

[Zhade]

190. Yes, he has.

NT!

[Zhade]

189. Try responding to #166 first.

Funny how you avoid calling the support of prop H8 bigoted time and time again.

[Zhade]

186. Do you at least concede that they are ACTING like bigots, even if they don't know it?

NT!

[Psyop Samurai]

167. well, ya got me on that "life is unfair" bs...

...a rhetorical non-starter, for sure.

heh...

A couple points, then we should probably move on, because, in the final analysis, each of us deals with people we know, in our own community. And it will be that way no matter how miserable we make each other, or what consensus we reach.

I personally have always been very reserved assigning a noun to a person, for the simple reason that it can never describe the totality of their being (with the exception of certain notorious war criminals of late). I am, however, much more liberal with adjectives.

Moreover, in confronting illness, (which bigotry certainly is), I think another principal to keep in mind is "first do no harm".

:hi:

[JimDandy]

177. I'm with you for the most part, BUT

I agree with Kwassa that there is probably a small subset of the Prop 8 voters who were ignorant WITHOUT being bigots and are wholly educable.

They are like a driver who enters an unfamiliar part of town that has a small section of a street where the speed limit is 20 miles an hour. Except for that 1/2 mile section, the rest of that long street is posted at 30 MPH, just like all other streets in the town (real case scenario). The driver turns onto the street without knowing the speed limit and start driving 30 MPH, because he hasn't yet encountered any 20 MPH signs yet. Even though he's never exceeded the speed limit before, in all his 30 years of driving, he gets a ticket because, of course, "Ignorance of the law is no excuse."

He would take great umbrage at being labeled a "speeder" or "criminal" (speeding is a misdemeanor), though, because he never meant to speed and, if he had known the speed limit, he would have observed it. Never-the-less he gets lumped with all the others who KNOWINGLY broke the speed limit. You will be right labeling him along with the rest as a criminal, but in doing so you alienate those who morally don't deserve the label.

Intent matters.

[Toasterlad]

187. We Are Talking About Removing People's Rights

It is reprehensible. And it is WORSE if it was done in ignorance. At least those who gave Prop 8 careful consideration and still voted yes have conviction.

You are asking us to excuse the votes of individuals who took away our rights to marry the people we love. You are saying they are not bigots because they couldn't be bothered to learn why doing so is wrong. And you are comparing it to committing a traffic violation.

Frankly, it's insulting.

[JimDandy]

194. See my answer below. n/t

[mondo joe]

188. What can the intent be when explicitly taking away civil rights other than bigoty?

The initiative isn't posted like a traffic sign.

It's a ballot. It's explicit.

[JimDandy]

193. If the official ballot title ("Eliminates Right of Same-Sex Couples to Marry." )

was on the ballot itself, then you are absolutely right: everyone who read the title had the intent to take away the fundamental rights acknowledged by the CA Supreme Court. I withdraw my argument in that case.

I live in WA and was told that Prop 8 said: "Only marriage between a man and a woman is valid or recognized in California." That's not explicit and would leave the door open to intent other than bigotry. The ballot title makes it very explicit, though.

[yardwork]

149. If I used the same reasoning as a few here are advocating, I would never forgive straight people

for calling me a racist when I was defending the right of an African American to speak about his experience. I could take the words of one or two self-identified straight posters here on DU as a personal affront and insist that it represents the point of view of all straight people. I could impose my anger on dozens of threads by calling out "straight people" as bullies and telling them that I will do everything I can to take away their rights now.

I could ignore the dozens and dozens of kind and supportive posts from other straight posters here on DU and nurse my resentment toward "straight people" on the basis of one or two anonymous posters.

That would make as much sense as it makes for people to reject gay rights because they feel insulted by a handful of posts on an anonymous message board.

It would make as much sense as deciding whom to support for president on the basis of the behavior of anonymous posters on a message board. "You were rude to me and you support candidate x so I will never vote for candidate x so there!"

[Psyop Samurai]

168. Yep...

I had to laugh reading your post, thinking, "jesus, how could someone who just happened upon this discussion make heads or tails of it?" It's so convoluted!

I've been in upside-down world the last week. I called my gay white friend in the Bay Area to talk about the ballot initiatives, and he was so over the moon about Obama, I couldn't get a word in edgewise! Then I came on DU and found out I'm a racist!

:rofl:

[Zhade]

77. Um, anyone who votes to take a minority's rights away is a bigot.

You support our full equal rights, I'm sure, so why do you argue like one who doesn't?

[libnnc]

83. Is DU's very own Ted Baxter babbling again?

I have it on "ignore".

Hate to miss what the giant head is opining about this time :sarcasm:

[Starry Messenger]

109. Me too.

Guess I called that one early. Too bad it mucked around in this nice post.

[QC]

138. If he's our Ted Baxter, who will be our Mary Tyler Moore? n/t

[libnnc]

140. I volunteer for the part of Rhoda Morganstern

I'm too fat to be Mary.

[QC]

141. LOL! n/t

[mondo joe]

146. Oh good. I'm Phyllis. NT

[libnnc]

147. Who's gonna be Lars? n/t

[mondo joe]

150. Doesn't matter - you'll never see him

:hi:

[libnnc]

151. *cymbal crash*

You'll be here all week. :hi:

[Maven]

164. Well aren't you adorable.

And so subtle.

[Skittles]

45. DAMN STRAIGHT TOASTERLAD

:thumbsup:

[Rockholm]

125. Even teh gays who voted for it.

And I am sure there were gay people who voted for Prop Hate.

[CreekDog]

192. every group voted approximately half to two thirds in favor of Prop. 8

to single out one group specifically as having a worse problem is a bit ridiculous. every group essentially has a majority that opposes gay marriage.

i would also argue that out of the gate calling people bigots may be factually correct, but it will lose you votes because those names stop people from listening. like it or not, if you don't want to lose at the ballot box, you'll need to engage people that disagree with you in hopes that they will come around. many might vote in fact to support gay marriage. heck, this vote on Prop. 8 in California had roughly 20% less support this time around, six years later than the last one. people do change their minds.

[IndianaJones]

124. they are homophobes. is that being a bigot? nt.

[QC]

136. Well, it's not like they are prejudiced against anyone who actually matters or anything.

I mean, let's not get carried away.

[IndianaJones]

137. this has reached ridiculous levels now. nt.

[QC]

139. Yes, it has, but it's only a few people--interestingly enough

the very same few who always converge on gay-related threads to play the "contrarian."

The vast majority of DUers are very supportive.

[Nederland]

154. Pssst.

Read item #2 again.

[BlueCaliDem]

5. I personally blame the people's ignorance of the "separation of church and state".

There's no doubt about it, ignorance helped pass a bill promoting discrimination based on theological ideals.

As a more informed Christian, I voted NO on Prop 8. I respect our state's and nation's Constitution and respect my chosen deity's "good book" but I can keep those two separate.

Those thumping their "good book" while voting for Prop 8, couldn't.

[Zhade]

91. Thank you for your support!

: )

[PeaceNikki]

6. I take issue with your #8

It's not our GLBT brothers and sisters "alienating our friends and allies", it's they who are being alienated and fighting for their equal rights.

[Toasterlad]

9. I Think There's Been a Lot of That From BOTH Sides

I do not think the majority of posts bemoaning the large percentage of black yes voters were racist, but there were definitely some where the message could EASILY be interpreted as "black people caused Prop 8 to pass", which is untrue, and counter-productive. Likewise, there were definitely posts from the other viewpoint that accused GLBTers of broad-brush racism, which is just as unfair.

There were LOTS of heated emotions flying this past week; hopefully we're all ready to sit down and figure out how to address the real causes of the Prop 8 debacle.

[kwassa]

10. I'm am ally, and you are alienating me big time,

[mondo joe]

14. Seem more like a "frienemy".

:hi:

[Zhade]

93. FRIENEMY!

That is genius.

[PeaceNikki]

19. How am I alienating you?

Please tell me. I'm confused.

[kwassa]

23. Not you personally,

but flinging the bigot word against black people alienates me big time.

[PeaceNikki]

30. Yet you have no problem flinging "you are alienating me big time"

at someone who hasn't alienated you?

Weird. :shrug:

[kwassa]

38. sorry

I was not clear.

To clarify: calling large groups of black voters bigots alienates me from anyone who says it.

[PeaceNikki]

41. You should also clarify that *I* never did.

Not in this thread and not elsewhere.

Please don't take out your anger with others on me.

[kwassa]

48. You never did.

[Zhade]

96. Nor did the person kwassa is accusing.

NT!

[mondo joe]

42. Any voters who vote against equality for gays are bigoted. NT

[kwassa]

50. You enjoy following me around?

[mondo joe]

52. Do you enjoy disrupting threads gay people start about Prop 8?

[kwassa]

53. The OP asked for feedback, and I gave it.

We are actually having a civil discussion.

I see no disruption happening. Would you like to have a civil discussion?

[mondo joe]

54. I'm having a perfectly civil discussion. Civility demands honesty, which means calling a bigot

a bigot.

[kwassa]

57. I disagree.

Civility demands respect, and consideration of the other persons viewpoint.

I don't see that you have considered mine at all.

Also, a discussion means that you actually write something at length, rather than just one-liners. If you would like to have a discussion, I will be happy to engage.

[bluedawg12]

61. It's been discussed

and the point has been made - whether someone accepts it is another matter.

[mondo joe]

62. Nothing you've presented disproves the fact that those who vote against equality are bigots.

Good luck with that.

[Zhade]

97. We reject your notion that bigoted viewpoints deserve any respect.

NT!

[yardwork]

152. I have never referred to large groups of black voters as bigots, yet you have called me a racist.

You have been calling me a racist on numerous threads ever since I defended the right of an African American to discuss the issue of homophobia. While doing so, you have carefully ignored my thread - posted last Thursday - in which I stated that the exit poll might not be valid.

In short, you have attacked me relentlessly all over this board with no evidence whatsoever. If I used the same reasoning that you promote, I would conclude that all straight people have alienated me. Instead, I recognize that you and a couple of other posters here are determined to attack gay DUers wherever and whenever we post on this board. I don't think that you speak for all straight people.

[Unvanguard]

35. Any black person, ever? Why? n/t

[Zhade]

94. STRAWMAN ALERT! STRAWMAN ALERT! STRAWMAN ALERT! STRAWMAN ALERT! STRAWMAN ALERT! STRAWMAN ALERT!

People who vote as bigots REGARDLESS OF ETHNICITY are being called bigots.

It is absolutely deceitful of you to pretend that wasn't what was said. Shame on you.

[bluedawg12]

22. If you believe in something

you believe in it - no matter what. No sunshine patriots thanks. :hi:

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

7. Awesome Post And All Points Solid From Where I Sit.

Great advice and great post.

:toast:

[CTyankee]

11. As a pro-gay marriage CT resident, here are my relevant thoughts.

The argument has now shifted from the civil unions stage of the debate. CT has a ruling that gay marriage must be because of the equal protection clause of the 14th amendment, clear and simple. This decision doesn't screw around. And tomorrow gays in CT will be able to apply for marriage licenses.

AFter that court's decision, on Nov. 4, the voters soundly defeated a measure that was designed to overturn that decision. It asked voters whether to hold a Constitutional Convention. Trouble was, such a Convention would have been an open invitation for anti-reproductive choice and anti-union measures, as well as anti-gay marriage. Bad thing for the CC promoters. A coalition of Planned Parenthood, AFSME and pro gay groups formed an effective opposition campaign. Too many stood to lose too much. It went down.

So now we have good, solid legal language that places gay marriage rights, not civil union rights, in place in the strongest equal protection terms of any state in the U.S. now. Yes, it a state court decision, but the evolutionary legal construction is out there and history is on our side. The best thing about it is that it effectively squelches the RW's blather about gays wanting "special" or "new" rights. Equal protection of the laws is just that. It is for everyone. We never lose on these grounds. So we must jealously defend that turf and not get sidestepped.

The good, if anything, that will come from the Prop 8 experience must be historical. California will be in a position to say that minority rights can NEVER be held to a majority vote. It must be strong and it must be inclusive and instructive so the people will understand why this cannot ever be done again. IT is a "teachable moment."

[Malikshah]

17. I am deeply offended by your

shilling for Spring Awakening :)

Please... Pseudo-Angst is so last century. We're in the Post-Rent era now, sunshine. Dare a say it...a re-Mermanization of Broadway is around the corner!!! :):)

Seriously, though, great post. Thanks.

[Toasterlad]

18. I DO Loves Me Some Ethel

That broad had some pipes.

However, "The Bitch of Living" is quite possibly the best song of all time. There. I said it.

:hide:

[mondo joe]

20. Y'know what, I love this.

I wouldn't trade being gay for anything.

[Malikshah]

26. Word. Being gay means never having to say "I'm not

Fabulous!"

*Triple Z snap*

[bluedawg12]

39. ..

[bluedawg12]

43. dupe

ooops

[mondo joe]

51. I always liked this...

[bluedawg12]

64. Nothing less

than fabulously human! :

[bluedawg12]

27. The best damned community in the world

if I weren't gay I'd want to be gay just to be with us.


Cats revival on off, off, off B-way.

[mondo joe]

29. I can't imagine another community that would, or could, maintain its humor in

the face of so much shit.

:hi:

[bluedawg12]

36. Grace and humor

and until now patience.

[Malikshah]

40. Yes, and although I will get into all sorts of trouble for saying this,

"uppity" will now be offensively used with another group in society and will be met by the same response.

[Malikshah]

37. So true...I remember Jacqueline Bisset's line from Latter Days

when she asks the Mormon character whether or not there would be gays and alcohol in heaven... when he says there wouldn't, she responds to the effect that then she doesn't much care for heaven as it wouldn't be heaven without them.

Latter Days needs to go into wide release right now!

[Toasterlad]

44. Love That Line. Love That Movie.

Love Steve Sandvoss without any clothes on. :loveya:

[nichomachus]

25. One small quibble

I've seen a lot of posts that say the task for gay people is to "reach out" to the communities that voted against them and that if people know you, they will be more likely to see you as people and support you.

That was proven false "right here in river city."

Palm Springs is anywhere from 40-50 percent gay. It would be very hard to find a straight person who doesn't interact on a daily basis with gay people. The straight people sell us homes, they sell us insurance, they take our money at their restaurants, they even socialize with us. (We are not allowed, however, inside the fundie church, which apparently has fag detectors at their doors.)

On the Prop H8 vote, Palm Springs went 30 percent in favor of Prop H8. If you assume that 40-50 percent of the voters were gay and presumably voted against it, that leaves you with the conclusion that a huge proportion of the non-gay voters -- who know a lot of gay people on a first-name basis, work with them, and socialize with them -- voted to pass it.

So, I don't think the "let them get to know you" tactic is viable.

[bluedawg12]

32. It will be gay activism

and unity, the Courts, donations to gay legal funds that are fighting for us, outreach is a part of it.

No more voting on my humanity.

[Toasterlad]

49. Well, What Else Can We Do?

I remember before the election, there were several posts in the GLBT forum that warned that not enough effort was being made in African-American communities to counter-act the lies of the yes-on-eight crowd. If more of an effort had been made, we might have gotten some of those votes.

Reaching out to those who hate us might not yield results, but doing nothing will DEFINITELY not yield results. While I agree with you that equality will be initially mandated by the courts, I still believe we can ease the transition - for ALL of us - if we make the attempt to educate people.

[bluedawg12]

55. At this point

we have only the Courts and our unity and keeping track of the businesses and politicians who do NOT support us.

It takes time to build coalitions. That's part of it, but for now, it's going to be the law.

No more allowing people to decide that I am human being in the privacy of a voting booth with a push of the button.

[mondo joe]

58. I'm half done with the coalition.

I'm about us now.

I have no faith in a lot of the coalition I believed was there.

[QC]

60. Oh come now! We have an ally right here in this very thread! n/t

[mondo joe]

65. With allies like that who needs the Republicans?

Y'know?

[QC]

66. Oh foo! If we were just a little nicer

he would be right there with us. Honest!

[bluedawg12]

69. How shall I grovel?

Let you count the ways? :rofl:

[QC]

90. Well, you could stop using the B-Word. n/t

[bluedawg12]

112. I guess these women didn't grovel enough

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=4442678&mesg_id=4442678

[Toasterlad]

67. "No more allowing people to decide that I am human being"

Well, that's a given. But unfortunately, as has been demonstrated all too clearly recently, you and I don't often get to make those decisions. We can vote as individuals, and even as a community, but so can the people who oppose us. While we're boycotting and building and voting and waiting for the courts to do the right thing, it would be to our benefit to try and turn around some off those people on the other side. There are plenty of haters who's minds we will not change, but I think there are also lots of people who are just ignorant.

Case in point: one of my best friends used to be moderately homophobic before I met him. He wasn't a gay basher, but he was uncomfortable around homosexuals, and would not willingly associate with one. Then, during his junior year in college, he found out that a guy on his floor was gay, and that all of the guy's friends, when they found out, had turned their backs on him. Now, my friend didn't know this guy except to nod to in the hall, but he started thinking about it: this guy was the same guy today as he was yesterday, and yet, all his friends deserted him when he came out of the closet. That caused my friend to rethink his position, and led to me standing up for him at his wedding, as one of his best buddies.

People CAN change their minds. And we can use all the allies we can get.

[bluedawg12]

73. Civil rights should not be left up to voting

that leads to majority rule and does not protect minorities.

[Toasterlad]

76. I Think We're All Agreed On That Point.

The question is, how do we prevent it from happening again?

[bluedawg12]

79. Exactly!

We can't prevent States from floating initiatives, where they exist and there will be many other types of attempts and passing new laws.

So, first, we stop begging straights to love or like us, just be consistent, be fair and see it for what it is, a human rights issue of equality under the law.

Then, we have to unite because the rw is well funded and we have to be smart. Check out a variety of threads in our GLBT forum,there is a lot going on.

[Toasterlad]

There's A Difference Between Kissing Ass and Recruiting Allies

I am MOST definitely in favor of NOT begging straights to "love us" (I've written several posts declaring that we must be accepted for who we are, not what we think straight people want us to be). But I do think reaching out to straight people can bear fruit.

But you're right: the first order of business is to unite, and tread carefully. The only good thing I can see coming out of this fiasco is that it forced those of us who wouldn't face it just how serious the threat of those who would shove us back in the closet IS.

[Toasterlad]

89. There's A Difference Between Kissing Ass and Recruiting Allies

I am MOST definitely in favor of NOT begging straights to "love us" (I've written several posts declaring that we must be accepted for who we are, not what we think straight people want us to be). But I do think reaching out to straight people can bear fruit.

But you're right: the first order of business is to unite, and tread carefully. The only good thing I can see coming out of this fiasco is that it forced those of us who wouldn't face it just how serious the threat of those who would shove us back in the closet IS.

[mondo joe]

92. And be picky about how we use our resources. GLBT people are a big source of

volunteerism and donations.

We need to consider how we invest what we have.

[bluedawg12]

100. Toasterlad - Unite

educate ourselves, support each other.

We have been subjected to shame language over the last 8 - 10 years on the airwaves, hate radio, TV, they're everywhere. That stuff could sink in and isolate and alienate us -even from each other. It's not just the vote for PropHate it was the run up and language. We need to get people feeling good about themselves, less under stress, united, strong, involved and the rest will come.

[Zhade]

102. I guess it's time I came out wide, especially at work.

I've been here 8 years, and only a small number of people know, for a fact, that I'm queer.

[GinaMaria]

106. If they truly saw humanity

could they vote against GLBT people? You bring up a good point, but I don't think it's the 'let them get to know you' tactic that is at the core of this. They have to feel something. We have to provide the opportunity to for them to feel this. This cannot be won on the left side of the brain imho. It will require creativity, humor and gut wrenching truthful emotion (all of it). Think Movie of the Week, poetry, art, stories, biographies,stage plays, street performance, comedy routines (pointing out humanity's faults in ways that allow people to laugh at themselves can be transformational). We can do this. Make short films, make feature length films, videos, dvds. Wear your message on a t-shirt. Use whatever you have. Share ideas.

[nichomachus]

123. There were people who congratulated us on our wedding, hugged us, and voted FOR Prop 8 n/t

[GinaMaria]

179. WTF?

I just don't get it. With all the talk of the Bradley effect in this election. Everyone was looking in the wrong direction. Can you imagine being so phoney? I've never been one for hidden agendas. Don't you want to throw their wedding gift to you at them? The betrayal involved in this is heart breaking.

Sending you a hug :hug: The only positive I see in this is that you know how they really feel. If people are hostile, wouldn't you rather know that's how they feel as opposed to that fake smile bs? Hope you have cut them out of your life.

Sincere congratulations on your wedding.

[yardwork]

155. I completely reject the idea that my being "nice" to people will encourage them to give me rights.

Human history does not support that theory. Domestic abusers don't stop beating their partners when their partners "try a little harder" to get dinner on the table on time. That's just the excuse that the abuser uses to justify his or her behavior.

I'm detecting the same irrational argument from one poster in this thread. "If you all would stop being so rude and complaining about our abuse, we might stop abusing you, but as long as you complain, the beatings will continue."

Fortunately, the vast majority of DUers don't feel this way. Perhaps we err in focusing on the trollish types of posts and not engaging more with those who are truly on the side of human rights.

[DU GrovelBot]

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[FreeState]

46. Spring Awakening is AMAZING - if you can do go and see it - and sit on stage

if its available as an option for you. The play lingered with me for weeks - its that good.

[jonnyblitz]

71. nice post, toasterlad!

i wonder how many of the usual shit stirrers it will attract.

on edit: changed toasterload to toasterlad. sorry LOL

[QC]

72. One has stopped in already. n/t

[jonnyblitz]

101. i know; our ally.

I saw! :D

[QC]

103. I like allies! n/t

[Zhade]

74. Good post! On #9, this includes those who espouse civil unions.

Per Skinner's policy, DUers are EXPECTED to support our full equal right to MARRY.

Period. No ifs, ands or buts.

[GinaMaria]

95. Everyone will move at their own pace through this

Not everyone is ready right now to move forward, but hopefully everyone will get to that place. Sooner or later, we will have to make the case for change, or provide opportunities for people to understand. We will have to reach those who voted for this to move the country forward. There are a lot of people who feel hurt by this, but I think the people who voted for Prop 8 are also hurt. There is damage there that must be healed. The GLBT community and their supporters are not large enough to rock the vote on this issue. We need to pull people who are not currently on our side to our side.

This may take different approaches and tactics for different groups. We may have to try and fail and try again until we can succeed. This is worth the long term investments of our hearts, passion and time. Our commitment must not waiver.

If we start tomorrow morning, what could we start with? Who would you reach out to? How would you engage them in the topic? How would you help them understand what this does to humanity? How do you present your 'case' passionately but without accusation? How do you pull people who vote against you toward you? Do we take some lessons learned from marketing and advertising people? Psychology? Sociology? Would it be enough to tell individual stories and share true feelings?

How effective has it been to have Holocaust survivors speak to classrooms of children or other groups of people about their experiences in camps in WWII? Would this approach work? Can individuals tell their stories and challenge people to see them as human beings, not the boogie men/women they've been made to fear? For those ready to move forward today, what are your ideas? Where would you begin?

[bluedawg12]

104. We are up against powerful institutions

that convene weekly and are well funded, then there is an out of power political party that may want to also revive the cultural wars.

So, gays talking to kids in school? That was the exact fear tactics they used to get people to vote FOR Prop8, that they will teach fairly about gays. So, no, this isn't like other causes where people can go to speak in schools, Churches and Chamber of Commerce, in say Ark?

One last thing, it is not fair to say there was no outreach before the vote. From what I had read there was.

[GinaMaria]

108. I didn't say there was no outreach before the vote.

and I certainly didn't mean to imply that in my post. Hell yeah we are up against a lot. Coat yourself in Teflon cuz it's gonna be rough, but that doesn't mean I won't try. I will try anything I can and go back again and again to the same person until I figure out how to reach them. Figure out what motivates them. Work through the fear. and most of the time resist the urge to kick their ass. :-)

This is a very fresh wound and not everyone is at a place where they can talk about next steps or action plans. Those who are ready, should move forward. Those who need time, should take the time they need. We can do this. We will have to be creative like we've never been before. We will have to rewrite the playbook. We must think of tactics the out of power political party will not expect and be at a loss as to how to respond. We can do this.

[bluedawg12]

110. You did not say that. My apology.

I was thinking ahead of myself and expressed it poorly.

I should have said: "And for those who think there was no outreach before the vote..."

Sorry, GinaMaria, it's been a long week of debating this and I am probably thinking five thoughts at once.

You know, you have said good things here and supportive, and of course people will continue to work on individual basis, as well as concerted activism in terms of reaching out to various communities, and so forth.

But we also can't fight institutions, except over long, long periods of time and for some, it seems like the way to go is through reason and law and focus on fairness for human beings, as human beings, and not be used as political hockey pucks regarding our lives.

It's true laws cannot cause people to respect one group or another, on the other hand once we have fairness and legal protection there is nothing stopping us from continuing the dialogue.

I think most political movements go through phases: asking, outreach/activism, power, pride, legal measures, sometimes all at the same time.

Thank you for your efforts here and for taking the time to share your opinions and your support.

peace
bd12

[GinaMaria]

182. No problem. This has been a rough week

for people here. You're entitled to a little more wiggle room. It's important that we extend the benefit of the doubt to each other especially with highly charged and painful topics. If I ever forget my own statement, call me on it, please :-)

You are right, historically, the struggle for civil rights has been overcome first with laws/legal measures and then continue the dialog, but no more asking for your rights. These are your rights! Demand them. No one has the right to take these away from you, vote or choose what rights you have etc. They are already yours from the moment you were born.

Sending you a hug :hug: and always looking for an opening or the next opportunity to make this right. Change happens one person at a time.

Peace to you too,
GM

[Psyop Samurai]

99. Excellent post, Toasterlad...

:applause:

[WildEyedLiberal]

105. Finally - a constructive Prop 8 thread

The whole of DU would do well to read this thread. Thanks toasterlad. :thumbsup:

[Maat]

107. Very well-put.

I so agree that anyone who voted for Prop. 8 is a bigot - perhaps one who may be educated and influenced away from that bigotry, but a bigot. A bigot is one who is utterly intolerant of a certain people. I would say if you voted to remove fundamental rights of a people, then you are utterly intolerant of that people, or that people living any kind of a quality life. If you are willing to blindly do what your pastor tells you to, then you have to take responsibility for your belief system and your intolerance and unwillingness to live in peace. Perhaps you can be educated; perhaps you can't. You have to take responsibility, however.

I happen to be a straight supporter of the GLBT community who DID try and discuss the whole matter with a couple of bigots. I influenced a few away from voting 'yes,' and persuaded them to vote 'no,' mostly based upon the fundamental rights argument, but there were several who would not listen to reason. I do not feel compelled to reach out to them further at all. Perhaps others can give it a try. I don't plan on the bigots being my friends, nor will I be patronizing their businesses. One should be held responsible for one's actions. I don't have to obnoxious about it, or threatening to these bigots, but I certainly don't have to make them my friends or associate with them. That's where I am now.

I think that this matter will be resolved by the California Supreme Court. Certain people will have to get used to the idea that their misguided religious beliefs will NOT be a part of California code, and, although they will not have to associate with someone with whom they disagree, they will have to live in peace.

[Zhade]

117. Thank you, once again, for your grace and wisdom -- and your constant support.

You're a great role model. : )

[Maat]

165. Thanks, and a toast to you for your good work!

It enrichs me to help in this fight. It is helping me teach so many good principles to my daughter.

Onward we go!

:toast:

[jonnyblitz]

118. ....

:hi:

[yardwork]

159. Thank you. I do think that ostracizing people who vote against rights is a good approach.

I live in the south. There are plenty of white people here who would never have voted to give civil rights to African Americans. Now that it is the law, and several generations have gone by, it's hard to find people around here who will admit to ever having been against civil rights for African Americans. They would be ostracized if they did so. I would never patronize a business that discriminated against black people, and neither would the vast majority of people.

African Americans did not get civil rights in this country by asking nicely. They got rights because they demanded that the courts recognize that human rights are guaranteed by the U.S. Constitution. They got rights because a few people were brave enough to stand up for what was right, and once those court decisions were made and legislation enacted, more and more people recognized that it was the right thing to do. Today there are still racist bigots everywhere, but generally keep their racism to themselves and don't promote it.

[Mollis]

113. I agree

We cannot assign blame...we just need to keep working to make everyone's rights equal.

[Le Taz Hot]

120. Bravo (Brava)

On all your points but particularly point number two. I'm not one to be easily bullied by those on DU who automatically scream racism (or, in some cases, strongly imply it so everyone knows what they are saying) to those who want to examine ALL elements of this disastrous proposition. The problem is, too many people allow themselves to be bullied. How many times did I see people post things like "avert your eyes, we're not supposed to notice" just because they allowed themselves to be intimidated by a few very prolific bullies.

It doesn't matter what they say. I know what I am and other individual posters know who they are. Anonymous posters on the internet do not define who we are, WE define who we are so ultimately, their opinion of us is irrelevant.

I urge DUer to NOT allow the bullies to intimidate you. This is a DISCUSSION forum and everyone has the right to their own opionins WITHOUT the bullying.

[jonnyblitz]

122. exactly!

:hi:

[IndianaJones]

126. I would like to suggest that homophobes not be referred to as true bigots any more. nt.

[QC]

129. Don't say it! It's "The B-Word" now. n/t

[IndianaJones]

130. were people that supported segregation really racists? maybe we are too hard on them. nt.

[QC]

131. The black community clearly should have done more outreach to white racists.

Wow! That sounds really stupid, doesn't it?

[IndianaJones]

133. is it even fair to call whites that opposed civil rights racists? maybe that is going too far.nt.

[QC]

134. Well, it certainly isn't a good way to bring people over to one's side. n/t

[LeftHander]

128. #10....best new musical....why is it closing?

And a K&R

[Malikshah]

132. To make room for the next Teen-angst musical....

"My So-Called Life!" (have to have the exclamation point to show that it's a musical) ;)

Broadway is hurting. Hell, even Forbidden Broadway is shutting its doors after 25 years.... nothing worth parodying according to Allesandrini...

[yardwork]

142. Very good. I particularly recommend #6 and #8.

I particularly commend you for stating:

No one likes it when people assume that we have a group identity; we must not assign a group identity to others. In particular, it is very inconsiderate to our black and Latino GLBT brothers and sisters, who have been caught in the middle since last Tuesday.

Also, we need to get away from the black/white binary, and the straight/gay binary, neither of which reflects reality.

[SidDithers]

143. Great post...

Civil rights, equal rights, marriage rights. They all go together.

Sid

[Bluenorthwest]

157. Things I'd add...including how I compartmentalize the blame

Here's who I blame: The Democratic voters who voted for H8. I blame the pro discrimination Democratic voters, regardless of what else they might be or not be. Democrats who voted for this are on my shit list, their vote was a bigoted vote, and that is that.
Here in Oregon, in 2004 they passed a similar bill. At that time I also blamed Democrats, because lots of people who voted for Kerry/Edwards voted for discrimination against gay people as well. And they deserve the blame, in fact, they own it in my mind. Take a look at the demographics of Oregon, and note that pretty much anything done here is done by white folks solomente, just by the nature of the population. Same result here, near blizzard white, and in CA, which is highly diverse in every way. So. It is not about anything but Democrats who go for discrimination. That is how I see it.

I take issue with my people, the Democrats. And I also wonder why others are so quick to look for ways to divide that group in any other way. To me, Democratic voters not being on my side was the crusher, in Oregon, CA, FL, and eleswhere. Be they white or black or some of each, be they RCC or LDS, Baptist or atheist, be they Euro or Aisan, be they rich or poor. If they were a Democratic voter and voted to discriminate, I take them to task.
I see Republican tactics all over this thing, Romeney 2012 is the fact of Prop8. Those that caucussed with the GOP, yes, I will hold them to account, without regard to any other factor.

[yardwork]

161. Exactly. Prop 8 was one of only four bigoted anti-gay votes last Tuesday.

Arkansas, not content to have previously amended their constitution to outlaw gay unions, this time made it illegal for any single people to ever adopt children.

Florida and Arizona, both highly diverse states, also passed constitutional amendments making gay unions illegal. Not just gay marrige - gay unions of any kind.

[pollo poco]

169. Thanks Toasterlad

A bigot is a bigot is a bigot.

I still don't understand why these bigot bills are even allowed on the ballot.

We can't vote to deny firemen the right to own guns.
We can't vote to deny Mormons the right to adopt children.
We can't vote to eliminate interracial marriage.

You couldn't get these things on the ballot, because they are all unconstitutional.

If a million people signed a petition to get them on the ballot, they would still never even be considered.

I also can't understand why we need a law to give us the status of common citizens, either.

It is already in the constitution. Equality is the law. Why do we need to pass anything?

I am tired of being told I should talk to bigots. This shit is illegal. Why does anyone ask them?

[EFerrari]

170. So well done, OP.

:applause:

[Blue_Tires]

178. thanks for this

was going to post something similar, but you beat me to it (and did it in a much better way than i was planning)

[apnu]

185. 2 through 6, are spot on!

Thank you for being a voice of reason.

[CreekDog]

191. I appreciate this message and agree with it 100%

That said, the things that have been said to me over the past week would make one think I'm homophobic, voted for Prop. 8 and don't believe in the right to same sex marriage. And it was all because I said (without accusing anybody) not to call out black folks for the passage of Prop. 8 (and I wasn't complaining about the politic way you phrased it, but over the top posts and replies that DID scapegoat).

After some folks got done with me, I thought I was the enemy. But it made me shake my head because I never called gays racist, I didn't even call the people who made those posts racist (just basically not helpful).

So this message is a great help.

[Toasterlad]

195. I'm Glad

If there was any point to this post, it was that we all need to stop pointing fingers, especially at GROUPS of people. There have been a lot of raw emotions over this, and it's very understandable that people are angry. But we can't blame ALL for the actions of SOME. That goes for those who'd like to blame all African-Americans for the passage of Prop 8, as well as the African-Americans who'd like to accuse all GLBTers of being racist.