Does Elton John get tombstoned?

[bermudat]

<http://www.usatoday.com/life/people/2008-11-12-elton-john_N.htm>

Many on these boards have stated that civil unions are a poor second

to marriage for the gay community. He is just one opinion and his world

is so different from most because of his wealth but if he posted here

would he get flamed?

[bermudat]

1. Here is Elton's quote

<"I don't want to be married. I'm very happy with a civil partnership. If gay people want to get married, or get together, they should have a civil partnership," said John. "The word marriage, I think, puts a lot of people off. You get the same equal rights that we do when we have a civil partnership. Heterosexual people get married. We can have civil partnerships.">

[Roland99]

16. IMO, those with a hangup on the use of the term marriage neet to get the f over it.

"Will you civil union me?"



puh-leeze.

[alfredo]

52. Oh cut that out, I'm a married man

[Roland99]

58. You know...I was just thinking the other day....

I should repost that DU Folding@Home thread.

I'll try and piece one together tonight. :)

[alfredo]

59. IM me when you do - TKS

[AntiFascist]

30. That's fine for him, and he is entitled to his opinion...

but he should not try to impose his opinion on the CA Supreme Court, which feels otherwise.

:*

[Renew Deal]

55. He is clearly a bigoted homophobe.

:hide:

[wtmusic]

2. The word "married" is important to some people

Not to Elton. I get both POVs, and I don't see why he would be tombstoned.

[bananas]

27. It's the official policy of DU - Barack Obama is not welcome here.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=4422945&mesg_id=4427535

[tekisui]

3. Has anyone been tombstoned for advocating civil unioins over marriage?

:shrug:

[question everything]

11. Won't surprise me

On election day someone got banned because he mentioned that if McCain won, he would be the first Vietnam veteran in the White House, and wanted to acknowledge that.

It appears that if enough DUers hurl "Fuck You" at the OP, s/he is banned (or kicked of the island? Never watched any of these programs).

I suspect that something like that happened with gay marriage.

[muriel_volestrangler]

35. You have no idea why that person was banned

Reasons for bans are not made public. I can say, however, that 'if enough DUers hurl "Fuck You"', it won't get someone banned. Ask some members who are still here, despite many calls by members for them to be tombstoned. The mods, and admins, consider the member's record, not calls from the mob.

[TheWraith]

21. No, but a lot of people here have been saying that if you're not for full marriage right away

That you're anti-gay. Just saying.

[HamdenRice]

22. There was a thread a day or two ago saying...

anyone who diverted from the "party line" of equality only through marriage had to be tombstoned as violating DU's rules.

Hence, the people who "would be" tombstoned if the posted here now includes:

Elton John
Barak Obama
Joe Biden
Gay and Lesbian Advocates and Defenders (allegedly now only "a small regional" rights organization)
Lambda Legal Defense and Education Fund (they're an "opportunistic" GLBT litigation organization)

Who's next?

:shrug:

[mondo joe]

32. Elton John needs to be Tombstoned for his toupee alone.

I'll worry about Obama when he starts posting on DU.

[AntiFascist]

36. I don't know what "party line" you are referring to...

Elton John is a special case (and has always been one).

Both Barack Obama and Joe Biden have come out against Prop. 8 saying that it is wrong.

GLAAD is promoting protests against Prop. 8:

http://glaadblog.org/2008/11/12/prop-8-protests-stage-in-california-and-across-the-country/

Lambda Legal is one of the organizatins actively trying to overturn Prop 8!

Who's next to start throwing their support behind these efforts?

:shrug:

[QC]

39. Well, I think it's just awful how these mean old queers are persecuting everyone!

Just because they have different opinions! It's just awful! :nopity:

[Jamastiene]

37. No. n/t

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

42. No

It's all hysterics.

[Marrah_G]

60. Just a quick point

Advocating civil unions is not necessarily the same as being against full marriage rights.

My thoughts would be that if you say "CU will have to do while we continue to fight for full equality" that is very different from saying "I do not believe gays should have the right to marry"

I think the Latter gets you in trouble here.

[Solon]

4. He's British, in Great Britian, civil partnerships have the same legal weight as marriages...

there is no proper comparison to that in the United States, where Civil Unions are not given the same weight.

[sandnsea]

8. But the intent is to give them the same weight

Pass federal legislation so that all marital rights are granted through either marriage or civil union, as the state decides.

[Solon]

13. Given the overall structure in the United States, especially the relations between States...

and the Federal Government, it may not be possible to make Civil Unions completely equal to marriages. Not to mention the fact that there are now 2 states(California would make three if its court overturns Prop. 8) that already have Marriage Equality.

What this will lead to is a patchwork of laws and regulations concerning relationships, whether called Civil Unions or Marriages that may make it difficult to equalize them. In addition, civil unions have to be recognized by other states, rather than just one state, right now they aren't recognized that way. Indeed, even same-sex marriages aren't recognized this way, yet, in many places. But can you imagine the legal nightmare of having some areas of the country only recognizing Civil Unions, and other only recognizing Marriages?

Not to mention you would have to rewrite or redefine the thousands of laws that list out the benefits and responsibilities of Marriages, but for Civil Unions as well, both on state and federal levels. As a practical consideration, the Civil Union argument should be abandoned, indeed, with the way things are going, it looks like the term Marriage is the term that should be used in legal circles.

[sandnsea]

20. A federal law can cover all of that

See DOMA. A federal law can be written that corrects the problems. There will be no patchwork, just different terms in different states. The rights will be the same everywhere.

[Sgent]

12. Gay Marriage and Gay Civil Unions have the same rights here

neither are recognized for federal purposes.

[Solon]

15. If Obama keeps the promise of overturning DOMA, then that will no longer apply. n/t

[depakid]

38. I don't think DOMA is constitutional

Congress cannot change the direct text of the Full Faith and Credit Clause with a straight up vote signed by the president. That would require going through the Constitutional Amendment process.

[MillieJo]

25. A civil union is the same as a registry office wedding..

Elton and David used the same registry office as Charles and Camilla.

[Sebastian Doyle]

56. Isn't he British in Atlanta?

I thought Elton had been living down south for some time now. He obviously must be a permanent US resident (if not a citizen) if he was holding fundraisers for Hillary during the primaries, right?

[Tikki]

5. His opinion doesn't always predict the reality of others...

My husband and I were married very young...
No one from my family came to the wedding...because they didn't want to be
a part of something like 'that'.

Someone even suggested to me that non-pregnant teenagers who marry
should be issued a permit instead of a marriage license.

In reality our decision to marry was the correct one...knowing who
we were and what our belief system was based on our backgrounds...anything
short of marriage would not have worked for us.

That is the reality of our 42 years of marriage.

Mr. John can have his own reality...just not other peoples'.

Tikki

[Starry Messenger]

6. I didn't realize he posted here. What's his screen name? n/t

[jobycom]

14. Skinner. Didn't you know?

:)

Seriously, though, "Would" is used to express possibility or likelihood, not actuality, as in "IF he posted here, WOULD he be tombstoned." It's a hypothetical, usually implying the opposite of what a literal statement would say. For instance, "SINCE he posts here, SHOULD he be banned," means he has a scream name and posts here, whereas "IF he posted here, WOULD he be banned" pretty much states that he does not post here.

[Deja Q]

7. I've said the same thing too.

Whether or not he gets flamed depends on any number of variables...

[jobycom]

9. He'd start a debate, but he could be within Skinner's dictum.

Skinner's instructions as I understand them say we can debate the political efficacy and damage of using marriage equality as a platform, but can't oppose gay marriage. Elton's comments seem to be directed at what can be done, more than what should be done. He's saying Prop 8 was a travesty, but that people reached too far in California going for "marriage" instead of unions, and that people aren't ready for that. So that strikes me as within the rules, even if I don't agree with him.

Then again, he's a Brit. They are not raised and educated on a belief in absolute rights the way we are here. For better or worse, Americans don't believe in compromising rights. Not a vastly different nation, but it is subtly different, and this issue might fall into one of those subtleties they don't fully feel.

Just my opinion. Probably wrong, as always.

[AntiFascist]

62. Sounds good to me...

It seems that the Brits still suffer from the time that their King was also the head of the church. King Henry VIII separated from the Catholic church over the issue of being able to divorce the queen, and he then became the head of England's own Anglican religion, separate from the Pope. Unfortunately the Protestant movement, back then, never foresaw marriage equality for homosexuals. The creation of the Civil Union still seems to respect the notion that marriage is both a function of the state and the church.

American independence was founded partially on the desire to escape Anglican (British) persecution, thus creating the Episcopal church. Many Episcopal dioceses now ordain homosexuals and bless homosexual unions, so marriage, even within the church that was founded with the founding of our nation, has a much more "revolutionary" stance on marriage equality.

http://franciscan-anglican.com/An_Explanation_and_Guide_to_Anglicanism.pdf

Many people are also confused by the similarities they see between Anglicans and Roman Catholics. Obviously these similarities are due to their common roots and heritage (since they used to be the same church), but Anglicanism was heavily influenced by the Protestant Reformation and this accounts for some significant differences. An Anglican worship service or "mass" is almost identical to a Roman Catholic service except for a few minor differences. The most obvious difference is the fact that most Episcopalians ordain women to the Diaconate, Episcopate, and Priesthood, unlike the Roman Catholic Church. But many other differences exist between Roman Catholics and Anglicans as well. For example, all Anglicans allow their clergy to marry and celibacy is never mandated for clergy unless they are under Religious vows as a monk or nun. Many Episcopal Dioceses (not all) ordain homosexuals and bless homosexual unions. While Anglicans respect the Papacy, they are not under Papal authority. Anglicans allow for family planning among their members and encourage the use of contraceptives. Divorce and remarriage is also allowed in the Episcopal Church with the counsel and consent of one's priest and Bishop.

[GodlessBiker]

10. England is different. He doesn't have to worry about crossing state lines. His civil partnership..

applies to the entire country

[Quantess]

17. None of my business, but....maybe Elton John and his boyfriend enjoy being unmarried.

Some people are afraid of that extra step.

But, for someone as flamboyant as Elton John, that's a milquetoast thing for him to say.

[iamahaingttta]

18. Apparently, P-E Obama WOULD be tombstoned.

He doesn't support gay marriage.

[jesus_of_suburbia]

19. Would Sarah Palin get tombstoned on DU? She's a working woman.

Elton John doesn't necessarily represent the gay movement anymore than Sarah Palin represents feminism.

[LeftishBrit]

23. I think the attitude to marriage as a whole is very different in the UK and America

This is a *huge* generalization of course; but marriage here tends to be seen much more simply as a legal contract, and far fewer people are concerned with its 'sanctity'. Many heterosexual couples choose to live together rather than get married; and I suspect that if civil partnerships were available for heterosexual couples, many would choose these over marriage. It may be to do with our being a much more secular culture.

Just to clarify: do many American states have civil partnerships for gay couples - I got the impression that most didn't have these *or* gay marriage.

[JuniperLea]

24. What's in a name?

A rose is a rose... If I decide to call it a turnip, it still smells like a rose.

I'm getting a little weary of this slap fight.

I'd like to see civil unions given the same rights as a marriage... then we can all just start calling it marriage and it will catch on! All cameras used to be called Kodaks, until Polaroid came along. Vacuum beverage containers are still called a Thermos, even though that is a brand name and not the name of the item. Tissues are referred to as Kleenex, but there's really no such thing as a kleenex. It's a brand.

Let's brand this thing. What's the problem with baby steps? Thirty years ago you'd never be able to get a thing like this on a ballot! This is progress, no matter how it turned out.

Both sides want all or nothing... everyone seems to have lost the art of finesse... Finesse is a shampoo, btw, but no one calls it finesse, they call it freaking shampoo for crying out loud!

[Creideiki]

61. I like baby steps

Here's one where we can start baby steps: health care. (Hat's off to Bluebear)

Here's another: pulling out of Iraq.

Here's another: abortion rights.

Here's another: equal pay for equal work.

Once we start down that path, where do we stop? Are we really so intellectually hamstrung as a country that we can't contemplate treating each other as equals?

[JuniperLea]

63. I get sad when I think of equality

People are so busy stepping on each other to reach the top, and so busy belittling others to make themselves feel secure in themselves. Learning the definition of equality for all human beings is a baby step MLK tried to push us into taking a long time ago. He was trying to teach us to take baby steps, but I think we fell down once he let go of our hands...

[Nye Bevan]

26. No. Sir Elton is a Knight of the Realm, a CBE,

and a member of the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame. People who fall into even *one* of these categories do not typically get tombstoned here, and he is in all three.

[Neshanic]

28. Elton is kind of a musical Andrew Sullivan perversly.

[iris27]

29. Doesn't surprise me...he also doesn't believe that bisexuality is a legitimate orientation.

Just because HE used it as a nice hiding place and pit stop on his road to becoming the world's most well-known gay man, he wrongly assumes that his experience is universal. Not exactly the most open-minded person, is all I'm saying.

[Seldona]

34. He also doesn't believe that bisexuality is a legitimate orientation?

I didn't know that. For me it was a choice. I just happened to meet a woman I wanted to spend my life with. It could have just as easily been a man.

I've even had people tell me there is no way I am bi because I am married to a woman and monogamous. It amazes me that some people are so obsessed with labeling everyone.

[yardwork]

31. This will astound some people, but Elton John doesn't speak for me.

I know it's hard to believe that (a) The Gay Rights Movement does not have a single spokesperson and (b) Elton John is not that spokesperson, but there it is.

Elton is a good musician, but his history on gay rights is spotty at best. He was in the closet for many years and even had a lavender marriage before he finally acknowledged that he is gay. He didn't avail himself of the opportunity to make his long-time relationship with a partner legal for quite a while, and now he's wimping around the difference between civil unions and marriage.

It might interest Elton to know that most of those of us queers who live in the United States don't have access to civil unions OR marriage.

[mondo joe]

40. But he's famous and British. Doesn't that negate all the gay American DUers?

I mean he's more famous than all y'all.

[JVS]

48. Candle in the wind! Respect Elton's authoritye

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[originalpckelly]

49. OK, we know you're gay already, you don't have to post in every gay thread.

:P

[bobbolink]

41. No. He also advocated killing Christians, and that was acceptable on DU.

Interesting that that wasn't considered "hate talk".

It's time John got over himself.

[JVS]

43. Doesn't anyone remember that Elton John hates America?

[Tyler Generation]

44. Piledriven?

[Toasterlad]

45. Elton John is Not the Queen of Gay People.

His opinion is shared by a very SMALL minority of GLBTers, and no point is served by speculating if he would or would not be tombstoned for posts that he has never made.

[QC]

47. Thanks for telling me!

I was beginning to wonder if I had missed the memo.

[Toasterlad]

50. You Know Very Well That the Identity of the Queen Is a Closely-Guarded Secret

[QC]

51. Yes, but I momentarily feared that there might have been a coup.

A bloodless coup, of course, but one with pumps and feather boas thrown everywhere.

[Toasterlad]

54. Yes, There Is Always That Danger

That's why the Queen is surrounded at all times by 12 strapping men in leopard-print loincloths who all look like Marky Mark circa 1992.

[originalpckelly]

46. Fuck Elton John. Where's my purple flame thrower anyway?

Actually on second thought, I wouldn't fuck Elton if he was the only man on Earth. :puke:

[LeftyMom]

53. "But the stock boy at the bait shop says he likes having his own water fountain!"

:eyes:

[ContinentalOp]

57. Well, yeah. He's not married is he?

If I were not married and you said "marriage or civil union" I would say "whatever, I don't give a shit." But I AM married and I'm an atheist and the idea that my marriage is somehow religious in nature is really fucking insulting and offensive and frankly just makes no sense legally. But he's English so we can't expect him to understand that.