Mormons began plotting against gay marriage for decade, memo shows

[ccharles000]

(Salt Lake City, Utah) The Church of Latter Day Saints began putting together a game plan 10 years ago to ensure same-sex marriage would not become legal, a internal church memo shows.

The document, obtained by Salt Lake City ABC affiliate KTVX, was sent by a member of the LDS General Authority to a member of the Quorum of the Twelve, the church’s governing body.

Dated March 4, 1997, the memo mentions a meeting with Gordon B. Hinckley, who was then President of the Church, and quotes Hinckley as saying the Mormons need to “move ahead” with the church’s opposition to same-sex marriage.

Hinckley, according to the 11-year old document, suggests joining forces with the Roman Catholic Church.

“The public image of the Catholic Church is higher than our Church. In other words, if we get into this, they are the ones with which to join,” the memo quotes him as saying.

He also warned in the memo that the Church should not be seen as the lead instigator in the fight against gay marriage.

KTVX showed the memo to current Mormon officials who said they could not verify the authenticity of the document but believe it is authentic.

http://www.365gay.com/news/mormons-began-plotting-against-gay-marriage-for-decade-memo-shows/

[bushisanidiot]

1. Interesting they would want to "join forces" with the catholic church

especially since they refer to that church in their scripture as "the great and abominable church".
I wonder if catholics even know about that little tidbit.

[Hydra]

4. Catholics aren't known for knowing what's in their own book

Let alone what's in someone else's. That doesn't stop them when they have a potential ally in making other people do what they want, though.

[EFerrari]

10. The church fathers banned printing the Bible in the vernacular for a reason.

They knew. They never wanted people to be able to read for themselves.

[Ichingcarpenter]

6. Stalin joined with Hitler for selfish goals.

I think e-mails, phone calls and other evidence should be gathered
by prosecutors because this sounds like a Hatch Act infraction.

[EFerrari]

8. The Archbishop of San Francisco has advanced degrees in literature.

I'm sure he knew full well what he was doing when he invited this evil into California.

Shame on you, George.

[Hydra]

2. I told people this, but they didn't want to believe

The LDS church is not trying to curry favor with other Christian groups- this is their agenda.

The funny thing is that the Christians think this means they want to make nice with them, while in fact they are using those morons as a shield until they are large enough to push the larger Christian churches aside.

[bushisanidiot]

11. EXACTLY! They litterally want world domination. They believe they are the ONE

"true" church. They are obsessed with numbers and constantly talk about growing their membership. The mormon missionaries are nothing but used car salesmen who are used to increase church rolls.

[Hydra]

28. I live 20 minutes from Mecca

So I get reminders every day about how dangerous these people are. Most people don't see it, and don't want to, though.

When they're the next one on the list for either church, they'll know, though.

[IndianaJones]

3. can we at least agree that these Mormons are not bigots? nt.

[bushisanidiot]

12. You've got to be kidding, right? Of COURSE they're bigots.

they wouldn't allow blacks to hold their rank of "priest" until the 70's or 80's (I'm talking 20th century here, not the 1800's!!) and they STILL refer to american indians and latinos as "lamanites" and basically treat them as second class citizens. there are a ton of american indians and latinos in Utah and they are not treated the same as white mormons.

[AndrewP]

14. They are among the worst bigots

The "mark of cain" anyone?

:wtf:

[Radical Activist]

15. Come on.

Its not fair to make broad statements about everyone in any religion. Even Mormonism outside of the mountain west is something different than Utah Mormon culture.
I'm sure there are many Mormons who don't realize how bigoted and damaging the actions of their church are and just see it as a righteous defense of the traditional family. Some fool themselves into believing they aren't really hurting anyone because they've never seen the real effects of what their church is doing to gay couples. Some of them are bigots and others can be reasoned with.

[Maven]

16. Are you serious?

"I'm sure there are many Mormons who don't realize how bigoted and damaging the actions of their church are and just see it as a righteous defense of the traditional family."

Righteous defense of the traditional family?

You're actually DEFENDING the people who voted yes and legitimizing their rationale for doing so?

I guess I shouldn't be surprised.

[Radical Activist]

17. Do you know how every single Mormon voted?

Do you know how every Mormon in America feels about the issue? Because I know some Mormons who disagree with what their church is doing. You shouldn't write them off. And people do change.
If you want to get into broad generalizations and angry stereotypes against every single person in a group I'll disagree you with you just as much as I disagree with Mormons who do the same thing to the GLBT community.

[bushisanidiot]

20. Sorry, but mormons aren't used to thinking for themselves.

the church does it for them. it's called brainwashing. you are an outcast if you publicly disagree with "the church" if you are a mormon. they walk, talk and vote in lock-step. I know because I am a recovering mormon and I lived in Utah when I was a kid. It was the worst 2 years of my life.

btw, gay kids have been sent to "shock therapy" in utah to "get over their homosexual tendencies".
it's a horrible religion and those mormons who condone their actions by not standing up against church leaders are as bad as anyone who voted in favor of that hateful Prop 8!!

[Radical Activist]

21. Well

I was raised Mormon. I knew plenty who thought for themselves and disagreed with their church, even if they didn't do so publicly. I also know that many Mormons outside of Utah think that Utah Mormonism is a little odd. They have their own culture in Utah with its own problems.
I also know that some of the principles I learned back then, like the idea that people should follow Jesus' example of accepting everyone as they are no matter what their background or position in life, are some of the same principles that make me support equal rights for gay couples today.

So if you want to attack the mormon church for what its doing then I'll be right there with you. If you want to point out that what they're doing with prop 8 is hypocritical because it goes against what's in their own scriptures then I'll say it loud. And if you want to say that the way they try to get gay mormons to feel ashamed and deny their true selves is horribly wrong then I agree with you completely. But if you want to insult every single Mormon individually and hold a grudge against them all as individuals then I'm going to call that bigotry.

[mitchum]

32. If these "good" Mormons disagree with the Mormon church...

why don't they just leave that cesspool of idiocy? And make up their own church?
C'mon, that's a fine old protestant tradition. Even Joseph "Not All Lynchings Are Bad" Smith knew that.

[Radical Activist]

41. Some will leave.

But telling Mormons that they're all bigots and accusing them of having 10 wives will probably keep those questioning Mormons in that church even longer. They have a martyrdom mindset because of their history that makes them grab on tighter to the church in face of opposition.

It isn't like a protestant church. They teach that their church is the ONLY path to salvation which makes it very difficult for many to leave even if they don't like some things the church is doing.

[bushisanidiot]

37. bullshit. it's not bigotry. by not standing up against this kind of hatred

those "open minded" mormons are no better than the great majority of mormons who were in favor of prop. 8.

as former mormons, you and i both know DAMN well that those who would speak up against prop. 8 would be facing excommunication. so, by keeping silent, they put their church first over civil rights and that's exactly how the church leaders WANT it!

yes, mormons are bigots. period. if they weren't bigots they would be excommunicated non-mormons and FREEEEE to think for themselves like you and me.

[Radical Activist]

42. I would have left

the mormon church sooner were it not for the unfair attacks and bigotry I faced from evangelical protestants and others for being mormon. So I don't think dismissing all mormons as bigots for what their church is doing is going to accomplish anything other than making mormons dig in their heels with that persecuted mindset. I'm sure you know how difficult it is for them to leave the "one true church" even after they start questioning what church leaders are doing.

Understanding that not all mormons are hateful (even though they're wrong for staying in a church that's advocating discrimination) opens the door to changing minds, getting some people to leave the church, and getting some mormons to try to change things from within it. A lot of churches changed over time, including the mormon one, and some of that was because people from inside pushed for that change. There were a lot of poeple for many years inside the mormon church who pushed for the church to change their policy about african-american clergy. They did it in a way that wasn't public so that they wouldn't get excommunicated. Why couldn't the same thing happen today?

So I guess I'm thinking about what line of attack is more likely to change attitudes and make progress. Its hard to argue against bigotry and then make broad generalizations about everyone in a group at the same time.

[Maven]

23. I'm talking about the people who voted YES for whatever reason

who you're being oh-so-generous and understanding to, as you generally are toward people who are bigoted toward GLBT people for religious reasons.

I said nothing about people who disagreed with their church and presumably voted no if they lived in California.

[Radical Activist]

25. This sub thread

was about mormons being bigots. Not just people who voted no.

I'm generally forgiving of bigots? Really, that's news to me. Do I know you? Have we ever had a conversation in real life?

I oppose prejudiced generalizations of ANY group and I make no apologies for that.

[donco6]

45. If they're actively working to change the church, OK.

If not, they're just as complicit.

[Radical Activist]

51. post 50

Is what I'm really trying to get at with my posts. And I think any movement against bigotry is comprised when it starts spreading ugly generalizations about another group that has been historically discriminated against. MLK didn't end segregation by calling all white people in the south racists.

[Radical Activist]

18. And bothering to understand someone elses point of view is not a defense of it.

But way to jump to conclusions there.

[Maven]

24. Not when your expression of understanding validates ideas like "traditional families"

which is an antigay codeword used by religious conservatives.

[Radical Activist]

26. I'm not aware of validating the term in any way.

It wasn't my intent.
I guess the only thing you want me to write is that all mormons are evil and they suck and we should hate them? Is that what you're looking for? If you think all mormons are so hateful and brainwashed that none of them can be convinced or shown the error of their ways then you're just as prejudiced as any of them are. I hope that isn't how you feel.

[Maven]

27. Strawman

[Radical Activist]

29. Are you admitting that's what you were doing?

You know, when you accused me of validating an attitude that I clearly condemned in the same paragraph?

[Maven]

36. No that's what you're doing

by misconstruing my objection to your apologist bullshit as an attack on all Mormon people.

And by the way, if you continue to follow what is essentially, on this issue, a HATE GROUP, then you deserve ridicule no matter how "well-intentioned" or "righteous" you are. Don't you dare try to pull the "people of faith are beyond reproach" card on me.

[Radical Activist]

40. another straw man from you.

1) Who says I "follow" a hate group? The angry voices in your head? I don't have anything to do with the mormon church, if that's what you're implying.

2) Nothing I wrote is apologist of the Mormon church for their actions. I've condemned what they're doing several times in this thread and others.

Is there some other reason you're so eager to attack and accuse me?
All I'm saying is that prejudiced generalizations against any group are wrong. There's a difference between being angry at the Mormon church for its actions and hating all mormons individually. If you agree with that then stop putting words in my mouth.

[Radical Activist]

46. "bigoted and damaging"

You're attacking me for a post where I called the mormon church's actions bigoted and damaging. Explain to me again how that's being apologist for them? WTF? Go back to read my post again and maybe you'll understand my point this time.

[mitchum]

31. Fuck every one of them I find the gullible to be as contemptible as the grifter

[donco6]

44. Sounds like Ignorance IS an excuse!

Who knew?

[Radical Activist]

50. I didn't make excuses for anybody.

I'm just pointing out that there are people in the mormon church who don't realize the effects of what their church is doing, and that means there's room to open their eyes and change minds. You can't change minds if you write someone off from the start and don't try.

I was raised mormon for over 20 years before I realized how the church treats gay people. It was even longer until I realized how horribly damaging it is for gay mormons after I heard the experiences and stories of gay former mormons. Even when I was mormon I was never openly hostile to anyone GLBT but I didn't realize how psychologically damaging the church's attitude toward its GLBT members really is.

I'm grateful to those former mormons who were willing to share their experiences and who realize that people can change their attitudes. Believe it or not, you're not likely to hear a sermon from the pulpit in a mormon church about how evil gay people are.
So hearing the stories of formerly mormon gays forced me to confront some things about the church that no one ever discussed in sunday school. It was a big part of me starting to question the church I grew up in. So, I'm just suggesting that its worth viewing mormons as human beings and opening a dialogue instead of just hating them all and writing them off as individuals. Maybe the reaction to prop 8 is what will force more mormons to see what their church is doing and confront it within themselves.

[mondo joe]

34. That's impolite. Please just say "The B Word".

;-)

[donco6]

43. What is your game, anyway?

It's getting a little old.

[WeDidIt]

47. Hell, the Mormon church once had official doctrine which considered black people

to be sub-human.

[This One]

49. Not to mention bigamy

[ColbertWatcher]

5. "should not be seen as the lead instigator in the fight against gay marriage."

Hmm.

Two things: A., it's too late for that, and B., why would they say that?

Hmm.

[Radical Activist]

22. For B

I can only guess but I would think that:
1) The Mormon church very rarely gets involved in politics and prefers to be seen a non-political. Partly because of their bad history with political involvement.
So no doubt some of the church leaders don't enjoy the negative attention they're getting now for their role. People should keep it up and hold them accountable. You may not think so but it really will make some of the leadership think twice before they get this heavily involved again.

2) They know they're controversial and other groups make for a better public face.

[crispini]

39. Completely correct.

And they are contemptible.

[Cronus Protagonist]

7. That was the birth of Pop 22

Which I fought tooth and nail, head to head with the Mormons. I lived in a Mormon building, with Mormon managers and a Mormon owner. Even the repair man was a Mormon (he put little piles of nails under my tires when he came by to repair anything).

[Starry Messenger]

9. I think these are the memos referred to in this Kos post:

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/11/3/15369/3779/711/651188

There are jpegs of the memos.

[Radical Activist]

13. Yep. Its not like prop 8 is the first time they got involved in this.

I think this is the first time they've gotten such a negative reaction from the public for it. It might make them rethink their strategy.

[liberalhistorian]

19. Who the HELL do they think they are, given

their particular marriage rights history and anger over the government's deciding the "sacred" issue of polygamy for them? And why the HELL should they still have their tax-exempt status?

[slackmaster]

30. They think they are God's chosen people

:shrug:

[mitchum]

35. And the truth actually is that they are Joseph Smith's chosen suckers

[DU GrovelBot]

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[crispini]

38. .

:eyes:

[WeDidIt]

48. I think there should be a proposition in California that takes away the right of Mormons to marry

That'd teach 'em.

[Mike 03]

52. A financial bully. Why don't they pick on someone their own size?

Of all the crises we face right now, and with so much money, why would an institution as powerful and wealth as the Mormon Church squander that precious capital to take away civil rights? One has to wonder.

Anyone who feels the urge and can should donate to the other side, so it's a more even match.

[Mike 03]

53. P.S. One of my favorite National Parks in the country is there (Bryce

Canyon). I spent a few days of my honeymoon there. But I can assure you I won't be stepping into Utah again.