Is this the death knell for unions in America?

[Joe Fields]

This GM bailout thing is much bigger than many people realize. A lot of us are wondering why GM doesn't just file for bankruptcy.

Here's a reason for you. If the government decides to bail GM out, and invests in the company, taking company stock, then the government will insist that all union contracts become null and void, and will seek re-negotiations. I am hearing that the auto makers would like their labor costs to be more in line with the Japanese manufacturers, which is a little more than half what the Americans recieve. Make no mistake about this. They (the powers that be) will use this situation to break the UAW and the Teamsters.

Some of us either remember or are students of history, and know all too well what working conditions can be like like without unions.

[leftofthedial]

1. the neocons and "free trade" corporatists sure hope so

they've rigged it pretty meticulously

[av8rdave]

2. In my industry (airline)....

I'm now making about half what I was in early 2002. This might be controversial, but better to give up some pay, preserve the benefits and work rules, and have the union live to fight another day.

This is a terrible environment for organized labor. Hopefully it will improve somewhat under Obama, but for the time being we are in the survival mode.

[Fire1]

6. I agree. All unions have proven pretty ineffective in negotiations

over the last ten years due to the dive in the economy.

[MadMaddie]

7. Agreed...same industry!

Unions have to pick their battles and the timing of their battles.

[wtmusic]

3. Every other generation we need to repeat the mistakes of our grandparents

or nothing happens.

GM should go bankrupt. It will end up being another AIG golden parachute and the workers will get nothing.

If the feds are going to throw money at the auto industry, there should be some kind of electric car competition or government contract to bid on so that all domestic automakers - even startups like Tesla - are included.

[notadmblnd]

29. I don't know what industry you work in. However, if you think that your job won't be affected

by the bankruptcy of one just one of the auto makers, you're going to need to think again.

[wtmusic]

32. The whole country will be affected

but we are accomplishing nothing long-term by making another handout to bungling, overpaid mis-managers.

[notadmblnd]

34. No, it can not just be handed over to CEOs to put in their pockets.

I posted a couple of other posts here, that says what IMO needs to happen.

[TahitiNut]

4. It does NOTHING to make their customers more able or willing to buy their products.

When the corporate 'system' can no longer find customers with enough discretionary income to buy their products and services, it's MADNESS to tax (even by putting them into debt) those same people in a regressive tax system. Even the Romans knew it was stupid to stop feeding the slaves rowing their galleys so the passengers could eat more.

[Joe Fields]

9. we're caught in a real conundrum. It isn't easy to say that these

companies should be allowed to fail, because we care about people and quality of life issues. We've seen a lot of hardship, financially, but really, none of these corporations should be saved.

[bean fidhleir]

23. Agreed. The companies should be let go down the drain, with

top management getting *nothing* at all. But the rank-and-file workers should get good unemployment and even help in starting up businesses to make *unconventional* small-footprint vehicles.

[Atman]

5. The closing chapter of the Reagan Legacy. It started with the air traffic controllers.

Now, the unions will be rendered obsolete...people, you'll be lucky to have a JOB, let alone a pension, or even a half-assed health care plan.

.

[nichomachus]

21. Actually it started long before that

It started with the Taft-Hartley Bill. The fascists have wanted to destroy the unions for a long time, and this was on their agenda when Prescott Bush and his buddies tried to overthrow FDR in 1934 and install Bush as a fascist dictator. They failed and went underground.

They were impeded during WW2 and had to lie low. After WW2 however, they hammered through Taft-Hartley, which allowed unions, but -- in the midst of the anti-Communist hysteria in the US -- required unions to purge themselves of any leftists. They did. Unfortunately, those with left-leaning ties were the leader and organizers of the unions.

This left a power vacuum that was filled by a variety of people, some of them opportunists and, unfortunately, some of them pretty shady. Whether by design or accident, this served the purpose of the fascists because it helped to damage the image of the unions.

When the '60s came along, unions became victims of their own success. Most union members were making a pretty good living and a lot of non-union workers were doing good too, because a lot of companies were scrambling to avoid unions by increasing wages and benefits.

Then, the next generation of workers forgot how things got so good. They didn't remember the days of shitty wages, crappy working conditions, 12-hours days, etc. They thought they got all these good things because they "deserved" them or because their bosses were nice guys.

This paved the way for a relentless campaign about how unions were corrupt, unnecessary, taking money out of workers' pockets, etc. By the time Reagan came along, the real damage had been done. Reagan pretty much just tossed a match into an already dry field, and the wildfire spread from there.

[mn9driver]

8. GM doesn't have enough money to file Chapter 11.

When my airline filed bankruptcy and destroyed my income and pension, they were quite careful to do it while they still had enough cash to get started with reorganization and get exit financing. The management idiots at GM have enough cash to make it through December. They do not have enough to reorganize, and no one--and I mean NO ONE is going to finance this for them, excepting you and me via a federal bailout.

The unions will still be around after a reorganization, but pay, pensions and medical benefits are going to get hammered, just like they have at all the other companies that have done this. The US government is going to end up owning an awful lot of our financial services and manufacturing industries, but we will allow the overpaid morons at the top to continue to run them badly and collect gigantic paychecks, because we wouldn't want to be "socialist", would we?

[Joe Fields]

10. The company burned through seven billion dollars last quarter.

I think they have the money to file bankruptcy.

[mn9driver]

12. When they reach $11 billion on hand, they will be forced

to file chapter 7, cease operations, and liquidate. They have 16.2 billion left as of last week. The math and the timeline are both pretty simple at this point.

[galileoreloaded]

31. Probably our 7 billion they borrowed

[ColbertWatcher]

11. I kinda hinted at that earlier ...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=4449375&mesg_id=4449375

[2Design]

13. It seems in every corp or gov decision there is the opinion they present

and the hidden agenda of facts for what they are lying to us about

[ogneopasno]

14. No. The shrugging of shoulders and "let them fail" mentality from self-described progressives is

a lot more damaging to the union movement than anything corporations can throw at them.

[Joe Fields]

15. how so? care to explain that one?

[Chulanowa]

20. I disagree

If the business is kept solvent via the fed, it'll go down exactly as others have said - union contracts will be negotiated, each and every worker in those unions will get screwed, and the union will likely be locked into that contract for a good while, even if the company catches its feet and starts turning a good profit again. The union will have less negotiating power, and likely fewer members (layoffs are almost certain). A diminished union in a company is more harmful to unions as a whole, than no union existing in a nonexistent company.

As TahitiNut pointed out, the problem here is that people are not buying the product the company is selling. No amount of bailout is going to fix that problem. Yes, it's a shitty situation, but pouring megabucks into the hands of the CEO's is not going to make the company any more viable, and certainly is not going to help the workers at the plants.

[notadmblnd]

30. You're right. The plants need to be retooled for greener models

and jobs need to be created. When people have jobs, product is purchased and tax revenue is generated. it's the only way I can see this country surviving.

[Hannah Bell]

48. they're investing billions in india, russia & china. new plants galore.

plead povety here, use gov't money to offload their obligations to retirees & workers, recession/depression tanks wages & asset values, use the offshore capital to buy up cheap assets - voila!

the new, *profitable* gm.

this game of playing one group against each other can go on forever.

[spoony]

42. Yep.

The apathy of people who are supposed to be labour's allies erodes unions. The other side is already against us, so when those on "our side" prop up anti-union companies and policies with their dollars and their mouths it hurts the cause of American workers.

[autorank]

16. Why is BushCo getting to do all of this unimpeded. Such crap. k*r Great post

[petgoat]

17. Maybe the UAW should buy GM. Just wait. It'll be cheap. nt

[madmadmad]

18. this is damend if we do and damned if we don't

but either way, i doubt even the magic of obama can restore the wages of the american worker.

[earth mom]

19. Obama did not have any union representation when he met with "financial advisors" last week.

Looks like he could give a damn about unions too. :(

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

37. I Don't See Why He Should Have.

[earth mom]

40. Clinton had unions involved when he took office. nt.

[Hubert Flottz]

22. The unions are on the verge of a comeback and Bush wants to

do all the damage to them that he can before his time is up. I'm for bailing out the UAW! The auto industry saved the "Free World's" and the USSR's asses during WWII...

[NNN0LHI]

24. Do you have a cite that shows Japanese auto workers make a little more than half of US auto workers?

Because I don't believe you.

Don

[ProfessorGAC]

25. Not The Death Knell

What i would guess is that because the unions were so successful for so long, that many companies simply started to treat their people better, whether they were union or not.

When enough non-union firms start to routinely their people badly enough, people will reorganize and unionize.

So for now, i think the union movement is dormant, but not dead. Enough big corporation management will do enough silly things to resurrect it.
The Professor

[erinlough]

44. Good post and I agree in part, however here in Michigan

the rights of the unions began to be eroded in the Engler Administration. There have been moves against the unions since Reagan. Also, if you saw our Governor being interviewed by Wolf Blitzer she stated that the union has already restructured health care and given concessions to GM. Union members are not stupid, no job is worse than some job. Oh and by the way in Michigan the standard laws protecting other industries with non union workers such as overtime laws and exempt vs. non exempt workers, laws that were designed to protect workers who chose not to unionize apply to everyone EXCEPT workers in Automobile dealerships, auto parts persons, mechanics. Yeah the business certainly treated non union auto workers better.....not.

[ProfessorGAC]

50. You're Agreeing With Me

As long as blue collar workers think they're ok, they'll vote republican. When the abuse gets the lower half fed up, the unions will quit voting repub, and either the dems will change direction or some really clever organizers will get everyone's attention.

And, the unions won't need the gangsters anymore.

It will just be the middle class against the powers that be. And the last two times those adversaries went at it, the latter won easily both times.
GAC

[Truth Teller]

26. I've heard nothing about the government insisting on concessions

If anyone has a link, I'd be interested.

[theboss]

27. Question: What good are unions if there are no industrial employers?

The problem is that GM is about to fail. The UAW is going to be broken because there is going to be no American auto industry.

[readmoreoften]

45. Ask the academics, editors, and film industry workers represented by UAW.

[notadmblnd]

28. it didn't happen years ago with Chrysler

and the auto companies have been replacing their retirees with people making less than half of what a senior line worker would be making, for years. My husband worked for GM before he died (it's been 5 years) and back then they were hiring people for 9 dollars an hour. I imagine that since he's passed, GM has continued or expanded this process. What I would like to know is; just how much do working people have to give up? Eliminating employees and cost cutting was supposed to bring these companies back to profitability. Off shoring jobs was supposed to bring these companies back to profitability. Apparently none of the avenues these big corporations have pursued have worked. Just more people out of jobs and a lower standard of living. When will these corporations realize that when you put people out of work, no one buys their products? Did they really think the Chinese, Mexicans and Indians would pick up the American consumers slack? I'm no brain surgeon or rocket scientist and I know that people who have no money, don't spend money. Why can't the MBAs that run these corporations figure it out?

[wtmusic]

35. You have it backwards.

Americans buy $billions of Chinese products every day, even though manufacturing those products in China have displaced American workers.

But when these corporations make products that no one will buy, it puts people out of work.

[notadmblnd]

38. At one time those product were made here and people who had jobs would buy them

it's nearly impossible to buy anything made in the USA. India got our IT jobs, we got mangos. China got our textile mills, we got cheap jeans. Mexico got assembly jobs, we got hoards of illegal immigrants. It was cheap labor republicans who sold us down the river, not the other way around.

[DU GrovelBot]

33. ## PLEASE DONATE TO DEMOCRATIC UNDERGROUND! ##

==================
GROVELBOT.EXE v4.1
==================



This week is our fourth quarter 2008 fund drive. Democratic Underground is
a completely independent website. We depend on donations from our members
to cover our costs. Please take a moment to donate! Thank you!

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

36. They Would Likely Restructure Under Bankruptcy As Well. They Need It Though. The Unions There Need

altering.

In order to remain viable the UAW situation absolutely needs to be dealt with and revised. I don't think they should get rid of the union, but they definitely need to restructure and renegotiate in a way that allows GM to be competitive. The benefits given to the Union are just too skewed in comparison to what normal companies give, and there are too many wasteful positions in which the union members don't have much of anything to do but collect a full salary anyway. Some of those types of jobs should be consolidated into other positions, but right now they aren't because certain small tasks that ANY employee can do are instead reserved solely for these other members, even though their positions aren't truly necessary and their tasks are easily able to be handled by other people (such as changing a lightbulb. Bad example, but just the first thing that popped into my head).

Those types of changes would likely absolutely need to be made in order to cut costs while being able to remain competitive. There are a TON of things the management needs to do in order to get their house in order and get the company back on track. But there are definitely some changes in the whole union structure and benefit packages that need to be dealt with as well, if we are to see GM become competitive and viable once again.

[Blue_Tires]

39. it could be...TPTB on wall street have been plotting this for years

there are only two high-profile union industries left (auto and airline), and the anti-union rhetoric i've seen in the media the past 15 years whenever there has been trouble is overwhelming...

[backscatter712]

41. This is why getting the Employee Free Choice Act through is important!

We need to make it easier for employees to unionize. Right now, the working environment is so hostile to unions, thanks to 30 years of Reagan-style union-busting tactics. Now, Wal-Mart's been able to keep itself completely union-free, and every worker is suffering.

Pass the Employee Free Choice Act, and while we're at it, repeal Taft-Hartley. Think there's any chance of at least watering down Taft Hartley?

[KamaAina]

43. The auto makers would also like to not have their legacy health care and pension costs

in fact, GM and the others are coming around to supporting single-payer health care for this reason. They've noticed that their Canadian plants, which pay similar wages to those in the U.S. are more competitive simply because they're not shouldering the health care burden.

Beware: Both retiree health care and pensions could be on the chopping block right along with wages, in either a buyout or a bankruptcy scenario. :scared:

[readmoreoften]

46. So the government can't honor union contracts but it honored the golden parachutes of CEOs?

Sounds like BS to me.

[Greyhound]

47. Not one person in DC or Detroit that I've heard had suggested what, to me,

sounds like the best solution.

Let it die and sell it off to the unions themselves. The unions are the people that know how to build cars, they know the people that are really good at designing them and have to experience to set up production efficiently.

Management is the problem as it always has been. Why isn't anybody asking why the management pissed away decades of profits going into other businesses instead of preparing for what everybody with a double digit IQ knew was coming?

Why do the unions let themselves be run by people of the same class as the owners? How many officers over at UAW ever worked on the lines?

[lib2DaBone]

49. The Unions have no leverage as long as Workers Vote Republican...

.. if workers are happy with their wages and working conditions.. and if the Republicans convince workers that Bush is their 'Buddy'... the unions will have no leverage.

If the workers do not speak up.. there is no solidarity.

I wonder how workers like what they are getting now? (Still no outcry.. they must be happy)

Things will not improve until people realize that China produces junk and Wal-Mart does not mean lower prices. Americans work more hours, get less benefits and have less vacation than any modern industrialized society in the world. Yet they believe the bunk they get on Fox News.

Hell, feed me poison food from China and Poison Vegetables from Mexico... and I'm good to go.

Are American workers willing to live like boat people in Taiwan?

We shall see.