The Peoples' Bailout Of The PEOPLE!

[Christa]

(I am posting this for a new member who cannot yet start a new thread).

The Peoples' Bailout Plan Of The PEOPLE!

If you like this plan, PLEASE PASS IT ON in e-mails to your friends and families and in this and other Internet forums...

My plan is really quite simple...Since the government won't directly help the PEOPLE, it's time for the PEOPLE to take MATTERS INTO OUR OWN HANDS!

What I call for is EVERYONE who has a mortgage to take a 6 MONTH HIATUS FROM PAYING THEIR MORTGAGES! If the average mortgage is about $2,000 per month, this effectively puts about $12,000 back into the PEOPLES' HANDS to do with what they want and need. This will, in turn, STIMULATE THE ECONOMY which will help it get back to health again.

The banks will be FORCED TO NEGOTIATE WITH US IF THEY WANT TO STAY IN BUSINESS! They CANNOT and WILL NOT FORECLOSE ON ALL OF US AT THE SAME TIME! That would be IMPOSSIBLE for them to do! They will have several options that they could do that will help us and let the banks stay in business at the same time. These options include: 1) Extending the length of the mortgage terms, 2) Lower the INTEREST RATE on the mortgages and 3) Renegotiate the principal on the mortgages down to the houses' CURRENT MARKET VALUE!

I am calling for all of us to start doing this 6 month hiatus on January 1, 2009. We can do this! We can take the power back! We can help ourselves and help the economy at the SAME TIME!

Let's do this people! Get the word out and let's get the power back to where it belongs...WITH THE PEOPLE!

[grannie4peace]

1. outrageously interesting!!!

[SoCalDem]

38. outrageously sure to turn those people into

renters :rofl:

[democrat_patriot]

2. Is there something holding you back

from renegotiating your mortgage now?

If you agreed to your mortgage, why is that the banks fault?

If everyone stopped paying their mortgages for 6 months, I'm not sure there would be banks left to renegotiate with. (Maybe that's the point?)

[tnlurker]

3. Most banks won't negotiate

Until you are at least three months behind on your mortgage.

[Bytemeister]

6. They will negotiate BEFORE 3 months period is reached

The banks WILL negotiate when they start seeing millions of people ALL AT ONCE withholding their mortgage payments...But it has to be done EN MASS so no individual mortgage holders are "picked off" as the weak ones in the herd by the banks...I estimate that if 60% or so of all the people started withholding their mortgage payment En Mass, the banks would know that they would be in serious trouble and would be forced to the negotiating table BEFORE the traditional 3 month period was ever reached!

[Bytemeister]

4. The People's Bailout Plan Of The PEOPLE!

Gee...Imagine that...No evil banks to negotiate with and you would own your own home outright...What a horrible thought!!! :)

Actually, The banks would know that they were in trouble BEFORE anyone would ever withhold their first payment...after all...it will not be exactly a "State Secret" if we are planning to do this on the Internet!

If the banks know what's good for them, they will be forced to the negotiating table by the people if they want to stay in business!

As far as "agreeing to your mortgage in the first place," What about all those toxic mortgages that were written by financial institutions who can best be described as "PREDATORY LENDERS?" They knew EXACTLY what they were doing but their short term profit and success for their own companies best interest and bottom line was more important than the health of our nation's economy and the financial well-being of we, the people!

Christa started this thread for me because I am a new member and I couldn't start a new thread...Thank you Christa!

My name is "Bytemeister"...And I approved this message! :) Hello to all of you! :)

[bunnies]

5. And to the people currently trying to buy a home...

a big "fuck you" to them, right? Its bad enough that its impossible to get a mortgage as it is thanks to people not paying their loans. I guess by "people" you mean homeowners. :eyes:

Great. Thanks for the "bailout".

[Bytemeister]

8. We are at WAR...In WAR the FEW have ALWAYS SACRIFICED FOR THE MANY...

Your stance is oh so wrong! Firstly, the number of people trying to get a mortgage now is an extremely small number in relation to those people who already own their own homes and can't make their payments! Your fear is very SHORTSIGHTED and is not looking at the long term or the big picture...It is merely looking at the wants and needs of a small few rather than the needs of the MANY and the overall health and success of our economy.

Those people who are trying to get a mortgage now in the first place need all the luck in the world on their side anyways...There is no guarantee that they will be successful :( However, if the people STAND UNITED in this 6 month hiatus I put out as our own bailout option, the long term effect that it will have for the BENEFIT OF THE MANY will certainly outweigh the losses (iF there are any in the first place) of the few!

WE are at WAR, people! In War, the FEW are ALWAYS put in harms' way in order to PROTECT THE NEEDS OF THE MANY!!! We, the people have been placed in a position of weakness while we watch the politicians try to save the large corporations and try to sell us on a bill of goods that by doing so it will help the people. This is the same tired CRAP that we have always been served on a Silver Platter and made to think we are eating caviar at the GROWN-UPS TABLE!!! WRONG! WRONG!! WRONG!!! WE are the GROWN-UPS HERE...as long as we stand up as ONE LARGE, POWERFUL, UNWAVERING GROUP to fight for OUR OWN RIGHTS!

We, the people have become complacent and lazy...we expect everything to be done for us like we are little kids with mommy making our beds for us :( That just doesn't work people! We CANNOT wait for government to fight this battle FOR us...We. as Obama rightfully says, must become PART OF THE SOLUTION!!! WE must start HELPING OURSELVES and not wait for someone else to PICK UP after us!!!

We can do this!!! We have the POWER!!! Let's not try to find EXCUSES NOT TO DO THIS...Let's find the STRENGTH and LOGIC to do this BY and FOR OURSELVES...In the LONG-RUN we, the people and the country and our economy will be much better off for our sacrifices in this battle and war we fight today!!!

[Name removed]

9. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Bytemeister]

10. You will be better in the long run

I am sorry that you are too SHORTSIGHTED and SELFISH to see that your wants and needs should outweigh the BENEFITS of the PEOPLE as a WHOLE...Unfortunately, that is so typical of many of us Americans...it's the same old ME, ME, ME of the 1980's!!! It didn't work then and your selfishness will not benefit the people as a whole now either!!!

Look, if you are credit-worthy, you will STILL get your mortgage now even when the people implement my plan. You will benefit from the on-going fight...banks want and NEED to make loans...We will make it easier for you to get one that you will be able to pay...even if you are too selfish to understand that right now...You WILL BENEFIT in the long run.

Stop your WHINING and think of the bigger picture for ALL OF US! I'll draw you an analogy of what you are saying sounds like...I apologize in advance if you indeed voted for Obama...but you sound like a Republican who voted for McThuselah and said the better man lost...Well, like Obama said during his acceptance speech..."I may not have won your vote today, but I will be YOUR PRESIDENT TOO!" Even if you don't partake in this 6 month hiatus, WE the people will be fighting this battle FOR YOU TOO!!!...even if you don't think we are doing that now...We will be fighting to make it BETTER FOR YOU TOO in the long run and maybe in the short term too!!!

[Name removed]

11. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[warren pease]

44. I'm for it for a couple of reasons...

First, let's say you could turn back the clock about five years, give or take. You'd be back in a world where only the rich, recent inheritors, sudden stock option millionaires and previous home buyers could possibly afford a house anywhere in the country remotely fit for human habitation.

This would be what many seem to be pining for; the good old days of outrageous, unregulated speculation by all levels in the property buying food chain -- from inflated appraisals to falsified annual income to fraudulent lending practices and the whole sub-prime piracy.

Banking and financial management institutions had developed their own impressive variety of scams to lend other peoples' money to borderline indigents while skimming a nice cut off the top.

Call me an economic imbecile -- which is largely true -- but having watched the whole sorry feeding frenzy get constantly more degrading and disgusting by the year, I've no desire to repeat the same cycle. So if that was the best of all possible worlds and simply returning to that era would fix everything, then we lack the imagination to escape from our self-created capitalist prison.

And down that road a little farther, imagine a country whose people have become so isolated from each other, and from any and all institutions, that it's no longer a society at all. Instead, it's maybe 200 million disconnected, semi-autonomous city-states, constantly at war with all the rest over the same dwindling supply of goods and jobs and services and money and square feet of pavement.

Second, I'd really like to see people get past the me-first self-determinism that prevents people with nearly identical concerns from building alliances against the threats they face in common. As Franklin(?) said of the founders status as traitors: "We must hang together or we will surely hang separately." Just so.

Same shit, different day. There are better, more empowering ways to deal with the twin obscenities of rising foreclosure numbers and the spectacular sums of OUR MONEY congressional "representatives" gave their corporate sugar daddies.

So instead of feeling smug because some poor bastard down the block just had his house stolen right out from under him, maybe it's time for a little push back.

How about assembling a few hundred pissed off homeowners -- Second amendment rights advocates every single one of them -- who are or will be in foreclosure themselves fairly soon? How about showing up at the house to be stolen a couple hours before the posse and created an enforced perimeter? And repeating that model every time there's a new foreclosure notice posted on the county website.

If I could think of any other way to keep these scumbags' slimy hands off everybody's houses, I would have published a pamphlet by now. But all the decks are stacked in favor of money and power. All we have is numbers. If we're afraid or unwilling to use to combat a shared threat, this corporate crime wave will continue unchallenged.

And they'll never, ever stop because, for these parasites, there's no such thing as enough.


wp

[Earth_First]

7. What about all the folks with bad consumer credit debt?

A second; or even THIRD mortgage out on their home?

Do they stop paying on these debts as well too?

They've allowed access to credit through your home in so many ways; for millions of Americans to effectively STOP paying on their debt doesn't just affect the bad mortgages that banks wrote.

This also compounds itself by when the bank reports this to credit rating agencies, it negatively affects your ability for possible employment in the long run.

Of course this is just a very simplified opinion, it's much greater in magnitude that I will even let on to understand.

Unfortunately there's a big sh*t cookie that 99.98% of us didn't create; but we'll have to take a bite out of.

[Bytemeister]

14. We wiil negotiate all deragatory credit info will be excused

Credit rating? Well if everyone does this then the only person with good credit will be Dick Cheney!

As part of the negotiations, any derogatory action taken over the time period of the hiatus will be excused by the banks and the credit bureaus

[kentuck]

12. I would say that it is a better plan...

than the one Hank Paulson came up with yesterday..

[Bytemeister]

15. You are so right!

You are oh so right...we're into this bailout about 3 weeks now and already the premise of the bailout...the premise that THEY MADE, is being questioned by THEY, THEMSELVES! Now they are questioning why they should have to buy out toxic mortgages!!!

Why? Because that is in great part what you dumbasses asked we the people to give you the money for!!!

No...now we have to see our tax dollars going into the hands of CEO's in the form of BILLIONS OF DOLLARS OF BONUSES!!! Or corporate luxury excursions by AIG!!!

PEOPLE...We JUST GOT HOSED!!! DO you GET IT??? It's time for all of us to take a deep breath and start fighting back...They just stole $700 BILLION FROM US!!! We've been slapped in the face and stomped on while we were down!!!

This is our WAKE-UP CALL...It's time for us to ANSWER THE BELL!!!

[bunnies]

13. That *person* has 4 posts all of which are in this thread.

I guess you know each other from a *different* site. :rofl:

[Bytemeister]

16. Only YOU, bunnies!

Just talking to YOU...bunnies...no one else is calling anyone names...YOU are the only pathetic one!!!

[jmg257]

17. It's the GOVERNMENT holding out, why just not pay taxes in '09?

[Bytemeister]

18. We want to FIX the Government, NOT Break it!

We want to FIX the government, not break it! It's the banks who willfully caused much this mess by willfully giving out toxic loans...and now want free handouts from us!!!

[jmg257]

19. OK - But they had a mandate from the govt in giving out those loans - for a long time now! nt

[Bytemeister]

20. ???

I don't understand your point so I can't comment on it :( Please clarify and expand on your idea...

[jmg257]

27. Under the last 2 administrations, there was a concerted effort to increase home ownership rate,

so they promoted low downpayments, and creative ways to get lenders to give mortgages to buyers with questionable financing and inadequate incomes.

From "The National Homeownership Strategy: Partners in the American Dream” (circa 1994)

"For many potential homebuyers, the lack of cash available to accumulate the required downpayment and closing costs is the major impediment to purchasing a home. Other households do not have sufficient available income to to make the monthly payments on mortgages financed at market interest rates for standard loan terms. Financing strategies, fueled by the creativity and resources of the private and public sectors, should address both of these financial barriers to homeownership."


Housing values became largely inflated due to increased demand, followed by a DRASTIC increase in defaults by people who never should have bought a home in the first place, especially once those values decreased. There was also misuse of the intention of the strategy by the use of the 'creative lending practices' for..."personal" gain by many who weren't intended to really benefit (1st time long-term home owners) - further inflating prices before the house market corrected.

Surely lending institutions themselves share much of the blame, looking to make their own points on even risky loans..."...the partnership of public and private institutions that originate, service, and sell mortgages ignored many important prerequisite warnings included in the one-hundred action items in the Homeownership Strategy."

Of course the desire to increase home ownership isn't necessarily bad, but I recall Bush proudly & constantly pointing out how much home ownership had increased - right up until the housing market corrected and so many people stopped paying their mortgages.


http://www.criterioneconomics.com/docs/20080226%20Market%20Commentary.pdf
http://www.businessweek.com/the_thread/hotproperty/archives/2008/02/clintons_drive.html

edit links added

[Greyhound]

21. Actually it would only take about 10% - 15% of the people to utterly collapse the system.

This is what the parasite class fears and why they are preparing their getaway.

Idiot Frat Boy jumped the gun and started it too soon, thus this show of power.

"I freed a thousand slaves. I could have freed a thousand more if only they knew they were slaves" - Harriet Tubman

[Bytemeister]

22. We must fight for OURSELVES!

I agree...But how can we get the people, en mass, to be able to do something like I suggest? Look how much opposition I get just posting this idea to "progressive" people...Everyone gets so afraid that a credit catastrophe will befall them that they refuse to stand up and fight for themselves!

[Greyhound]

23. Sam Adams wrote to/about them over two hundred years ago;

"If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen." - Samuel Adams, speech at the Philadelphia State House, August 1, 1776

They have always been with us and they will work against us as long as they believe that they will, somehow, be spared.

[Bytemeister]

25. Does any one see a downside to this...I have answered ALL of your concerns

Well said!

I thought that this forum would be filled with PROGRESSIVES...people who are willing to think out loud and work out solutions. Instead, what I have found is just a handful of people willing to comment on this proposal which I offer in an honest attempt to bring the power and leverage back to the PEOPLE ON MAIN STREET!

Instead of engaging in thoughtful and meaningful discussions on how this could actually be made to work for ALL OF US, the only people who have responded were essentially a couple of people who worry about THEIR OWN credit score getting hurt. Rest assured that any negotiation with the banks and lending institutions would AUTOMATICALLY carry with it a WRITTEN AGREEMENT that NO NEGATIVE OR DISCIPLINARY ACTION WILL BE TAKEN ON ANYONE WHO HAS TAKEN PART IN THIS NON-PAYMENT HIATUS OF THE MORTGAGE HOLDERS!!! PERIOD!!! NOTHING will be signed and NO PAYMENTS TO THE BANKS will start again until the banks and lenders agree that they will not hold the lenders accou table for any harm that has happened to their companies or affiliates...SIMPLE! DONE!

What I would like to see is an HONEST DISCUSSION of my proposal...not just some EXCUSES of why why we should not TRY! If we we don't TRY to do something, we AUTOMATICALLY FAIL! There is NO CHANCE AT SUCCESS unless we at least TRY!

So please...if you agree with my proposal, let's do something about it and GET IT MOVING SO THAT WE CAN DO THIS THING! If you have some serious questions as to why this cannot work, then ask those questions WITHOUT CALLING EACH OTHER NAMES! If I can answer your fears or another forum member can answer them to most people's satisfaction, isn't my proposal worth at least considering???

Let's keep it CIVIL here people...no name-calling and no hostility. If WE are divided, then THEY will win!!! WE LOSE!!!

[Christa]

24. At least Bytemeister is looking for a solution

all those who are calling him names are not.

We will get no where if we don't stick together and fight back.

[Bytemeister]

26. We need positive energy, not name-calling. We must stand UNITED!

Thank you, Christa...That's what I'm looking for...some positive energy...let's discuss this and see if it has any merit...maybe we can tweak it and make it agreeable to most of us. If we can start to agree that WE, THE PEOPLE need to take the power back into our own hands, then we must make this plan, or something like it work for all of us...Let's take the fight to THEM!

We are at WAR people...I know that sounds melodramatic, be what we see here is our life savings dwindling away while the Bush Administration and their cronies give us the finger and steal most of the US TREASURY on their way out of the door in the White House! This Wall Street Bailout was the biggest CON JOB in the history of our once great country!!!

[Greyhound]

29. I agree and have been looking for some way to bring people to the same conclusion

for over 20 years. What I've found is that there are very few Americans willing to risk anything until they've lost everything. I don't think you were here at the time, but you should have read the panic and pleading when the bailout was being discussed, and without exception their only concern was for their own comfort, the future be damned.

We have not even been able to convince Americans to forgo their morning latte to protest the gouging of the public by oil companies, a pretty universal complaint.

Obviously, I don't know the answer, people in Europe riot and stop their nations over a proposed increase in the number of hours in the workweek, we won't skip $tarbucks for one day when our fundamental rights are taken.
:shrug:

[Bytemeister]

30. Very disappointed

If we can't get people motivated to help save themselves on an "underground" Democratic site, what hope is there for any of the American people becoming motivated to make changes that will make THEIR lives better? They all suffer from "Mommy Makes My Bed Syndrome"...somehow everything is going to be done FOR them by someone else...magically!!!

If the people on this board can't understand the URGENCY of how the Middle Class is getting one more taste of disrespect before the Bush Crime Family leaves office, what will it take for them to stand up and fight for themselves?

Obviously most on this board don't understand that the powers that be in the ruling class want to make us all indentured servants!!!

[Greyhound]

31. No, they don't and I believe it is because they insist on judging the parasite class

as just another group of people, like them.

I've likened their view of us to the way a shepherd views the flock, a noisy, smelly, stupid bunch of animals that will provide him with materials and currency until such time as they are useless and then they are dinner.

Things are not bad enough yet for them to act, we can only hope that when it comes, it won't be too late.

All sheep share a common destiny.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

32. It's not just "the parasite class" that fears that.

The inevitable sequel to the collapse of "the system" would be "we all starve" (or some less hyperbolic version thereof, to be fair), not "egalitarian utopia established".

[Bytemeister]

33. We have the ultimate power

The thing that most people don't understand is that WE, the People because of our shear numbers by working COLLECTIVELY as ONE have more power than they could ever have. They will not collapse because when they realize that we are serious about our plan and stop paying into the system, they will HAVE TO NEGOTIATE or else they WILL COLLAPSE! We have the power to make them collapse but their collapse will benefit NO ONE...But bringing them to the negotiating table under OUR INITIATIVE will put us as the ultimate deciders of OUR FATE...and theirs!!!

[Donald Ian Rankin]

36. Except that the interests of your "we" don't coincide.

If you were to replace the entire American people with drones controlled by a hive-mind, your plan would work perfectly.

America is a democracy. If you defined "we" as "all the people living there" then "we" would have even more power, but that's not a terribly helpful observation.

For as long as there are millions of them with different competing interests and views, many of whom would strongly disagree with you, and all of them actual human beings, it won't.

[Bytemeister]

40. Not looking for drones...just thoughtful people...

I'm not looking for drones...just some people with a little passion and who can give this some thought and convince people around them of the plans merit. I very conservatively thought 60-70% of mortgage holders might be able to do this...but in reality, maybe only 15% or so would be needed...Even at that "small" percentage, the power of the many (the People) would be more than a match for the power of the few and would bring them to the negotiating table. I'm not trying to break the system...just make them realize that it must be changed so BOTH sides benefit. They're entitled to their money , but we are entitled to a better life than being their indentured servants...

[Two Americas]

34. true

The wannabe parasites fear this, too.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

37. As does anyone with even a rudimentary understanding of economics or cause and effect.

And a good many people without...

Only the spectacularly ignorant - those to whom "does it support my ideology and prejudices" is more important than "is it supported by evidence" or "does it make any sense" - think that "the collapse of the system" would be a good thing.

[Two Americas]

39. not so

It is not a matter of understanding cause and effect nor economics, it is how we interpret them. Does capital create labor or does labor create capital? Is prosperity created by work, or by investments, people or profits? There are two quite different ways of looking at this, and both are legitimate. Historically, Democrats have agreed with Abraham Lincoln on this. You are free to take a contrary view, of course.

"Labor is prior to, and independent of, capital. Capital is only the fruit of labor, and could never have existed if labor had not first existed. Labor is the superior of capital, and deserves much the higher consideration."

- Lincoln's First Annual Message to Congress, December 3, 1861.

Are you claiming that this view of the cause and effect in economics is "ideology and prejudices" that is not "supported by evidence?" That is the traditional point of view of the conservatives in this country.

What is the cause, and what is the effect? Is labor the product of capital, or is capital the product of labor? What is the economy and how do we measure it? Is it the people, working and producing, or is it Wall Street investing and speculating?

Are you claiming that the traditional view of the party and the labor movement is not valid, not worthy of our consideration?

You claim that those who disagree with you are advocating "the collapse of the system." Which system are you referring to? There are two systems at work, and depending upon which you see as more important, you will have a greater degree of loyalty to one or the other. Is it the system of investment and capital allocation that is most important, that deserves the higher consideration? Are you saying that first and foremost the financial industry must be protected and assisted, and that benefits will then trickle down to the workers?

Your implication that only those deluded by ideology could see workers as more important than investors, people as more important than profits, labor as more important than capital is easily answered. Bruce Springsteen can rebut that claim for us adequately.

"I really never saw myself as partisan but more as an advocate for a set of ideas: economic and social justice, America as a positive influence around the world, truth, transparency, and integrity in government, the right of every American to have a job, a living wage, to be educated in a decent school, and to a life filled with the dignity of work, promise and the sanctity of home. These are the things that make a life. These are the things that build and define a society. I think that these are the things we think of on the deepest level when we think about our freedoms."

[Bytemeister]

41. No one's talking about collapsing the system...

No one's talking about collapsing the system...This is not about one extreme vs. another...there is a huge area of "GRAY" between the black and white of the banks running wild and "collapsing" them entirely...

My plan will bring the banks and the lending institutions to the BARGAINING TABLE...if they want to stay in business. It would have the POTENTIAL to collapse the system and the powers that be would KNOW that...That's what would bring them to the bargaining table...to save their OWN ASSES!!!

This is a very straight forward, simple plan...I've discussed this with several economists and they ALL saw merit in its approach saying that it could work...The system WON'T collapse...the powers that be are far to greedy and power hungry to let that happen...BUT...They CAN be brought to the bargaining table to meet OUR DEMANDS (and they should be reasonable, logical demands). WE have the ULTIMATE POWER...but we are too afraid to use it!

[DU GrovelBot]

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[ColbertWatcher]

35. General strikes seem to be the most effective. Interesting idea. n/t

[Bytemeister]

42. General strikes...

Of course my 6 month hiatus from paying our mortgages is in essence a variation of a "strike" and yse...strikes DO WORK and always have as long as the strikers stay united and there is the possibility of the parent company being hurt by the actions of the strikers. I don't want to collapse the system...just bring the banks and lenders to the negotiating table and tell them we are not going to make another payment to them until they meet our reasonable demands

[ColbertWatcher]

43. "... strikes DO WORK and always have as long as the strikers stay united ..."

Agreed, and, I might add the more people agreeing with the strikers the better.

[20score]

45. Interesting.

[earth mom]

46. This is the craziest idea I've ever heard of.

Why would anyone want to risk losing their home to take a stand like this? :crazy:

A better idea would be to stop paying income tax.

That would make the government sit up and take notice that the people aren't gonna put up with their shit any longer.

[Bytemeister]

47. No one will lose their house...

If more than a million people stop paying their mortgage, do you think the banks will foreclose on all of us especially if the lenders see this is an ORGANIZED movement? Do you think the banks want millions of houses on their books? This idea may SOUND crazy on first blush if you don't think about it, but the more you think about it, the more crazy an idea it becomes that appears it could work!

Oh...and the not paying taxes...who's that going to hurt...YES...WE, THE PEOPLE! I'm not looking to cut off services to myself... and I'm not trying to bring down the system...what would that accomplish?