I've just heard someting hilarious on our news. You want to see how true leaders run their

[Joe Chi Minh]

country? How about this?

In Germany, the workers at BMW are naturally worried about the recession/depression and they've been laid off for a month. GET THIS! On full pay! It seems there is at least one country that doesn't consider its shareholders to be God, but that everyone had a right to a fair share of the country's wealth! They decided long ago, it seems, not to destroy their manufacturing industry and build their economy on credit bubbles. Oh, and they don't have a housing crisis there.

Why has Britain been increasingly condemned to Mussolini's degenerate culture of corporatism since not so long after WWII. Well, one reason is that it wasn't practicable to intern most of he monied classes who worshipped Hitler and Mussolini before WWII, either during the war or after it. So, the British people were fed on a diet of deeply misleading partial truths. Indeed, we were brought up to believe that we won the war, with a little help from the Americans. Few people in subsequent generations knew much, if anything about the extraordinarily massive and epic role played by the Russians. It was not politically convenient. So.... we have had a recrudescence of this beast of corporatism, which threatens to ruin the country beyond measure.

The Labour Party's new-rich, ambitious chancers lost any idealism they might have had, and turned out worse than the Tories. But, fortunately, in the short-term, are a shade more cunning, and willing to throw the people a few bones.

Why did we export so many of our high-ranking crooks and shysters to the US? There is no doubt in my mind that it was our British leaders who created your dog-eat-dog culture. I, probably like many Americans, was under the impression that the Japanese were the major investors in US industry, after the monied Americans. Not a bit of it. I read, some time ago, that their stake was almost minuscule compared to that of monied Brits. How fitting that our monied leaders should pay so much more for their treachery towards their own people than those of other European countries.

These, mark you, are the people who, a matter of months ago, were boasting that "the country" (i.e themselves) had never been richer. And how they scoffed at that old rust-bucket Germany! Get real, you wretches, and start looking after the people. Trickle- down is not going to get us out of this recession. Truly, God is not mocked.

[GreenPartyVoter]

1. I can't even imagine such a thing being done here

[Joe Chi Minh]

2. Just the thought of it here in the UK doubled me up with laughter.

Funniest thing was, the commentator mentioned it almost as a "throw-away" line; kind of inconsequential. Nothing unusual. I hope it's the TV people being subtle patriots.

I remember a whol slew of WWII films coming on the box, after Thatcher had come to power. The cream of the joke (sick though it be) is that the war on the country she initiated is just beginning to really kick in!

[anigbrowl]

3. I'm European, and you have no idea what you're on about.

Germany is having a hard time with its own credit problems. they haven't had a housing bubble because their economy's growth has been so lackluster for a long time; the cost of re-absorbing what used to be East Germany still weighs heavily on their economy. Now, there's a lot of things from Europe that I'd like to see implemented in the US (like healthcare), but your portrayal of Germany as a worker's paradise based on a single data point is laughably wide of the mark.

You're in Britain, right? Well, that makes you part of the EU, which means you could go live in Germany. Go on, try it for a year. Obviously you'd need to learn German but I don't think that that's so hard - plus many Germans speak English and they quite like the British in general. You'll find some things you like much better, and others not so much.

[rvablue]

4. Don't Germans also pay something like 45% of their income in

taxes?

I could be wrong...I'm asking.

And I know if so, you probably get health care and child care and good entitlements.....but even so, I don't think that would ever fly here in USA, not even for many DUers.

[Joe Chi Minh]

6. I bet you're wrong that in a big way. But that's what the corporate media would tell

you for sure.

[anigbrowl]

8. Or you could just go and look it up...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taxation_in_Germany

Individual taxation is fairly high, though progressive. Corporate taxes are a flat 15%. VAT is 19%.

[rvablue]

10. Yeah, I could just go look it up

but I appreciated your post and was asking....you seemed to have a detailed knowledge of what you were talking about.

Wasn't trying to make any country look bad or do anything else negative.

Thanks for the information but your attitude sucks!

[RichardRay]

12. Progressive income tax, top rate around 40%

There's a substantial VAT (around 19%, I think), but that's consumption based. I suspect there are all the usual tax avoidance opportunities, but those are the top numbers.

[anigbrowl]

23. My attitude wasn't directed at you; as a matter of fact I was confirming your point

People have always told me my attitude sucked even since I was yea high, so I no longer really care.

[TheDoorbellRang]

13. We have some German friends

who get six weeks paid vacation every year, and up until recently that included travelling expenses on vacation (they've been to the states dozens of times). He retired last year at age 58 with full benefits, and his wife has had some health issues this year that required hospitalization from intensive care to rehab for several months -- all paid for by universal health care.

Sounds like a good deal to me.

[rvablue]

14. I agree, it sounds like a good deal to me too..........

but I think you could describe the benefits of this type of society to American until you are blue in the face and they wouldn't go for, even without the help of Rush, et. al., and I think that would include even some who post on this board.

I was just pointing at the diff. in regards to OP -- why can't we do this....doesn't it sound good.
Well, if you want that kind of society, you have to pay for it, it doesn't just grow on a tree.

[Joe Chi Minh]

20. Why would Americans be different from the more enlightened Europeans

in that regard? It seems to me you believe too much propaganda.

Nobody said they thought it grew on trees. But if the German worker can pay for it from his pay-packet, how is it the American and British worker couldn't afford to from his, if he wanted to? Which he certainly would, I can assure you. They would jump at the chance. But then, you see it's about the distribution of wealth and the correlated distribution of tax. Tax is made a bogeyman by the right/wrong - and indeed it probably is in a sense; in the sense that most people bear an inordinate tax burden, compared to the better off. That's the scandal. It's the same in the UK. The corporate media talk of tax as if it were a monolithic and affected everyone equally. Which, of course, could not be further from the truth. They should clearly distinguish between tax on the affluent and the rest of us.

Chomsky points out that the gulf between what the right/wrong wing in the US says the people want, and what they actually want, is enormous. And that was proved by this election. And indeed the two previous ones. Bradley effect, my eye!

[Joe Chi Minh]

19. Don't worry, You get some reeeeel right-wing nuts on here. You wouldn't

believe the idiocy. Well, you've seen it.

If you challenge some of them they get clinically hysterical, and even tell you you're being divisive and hateful. And of course, the old "ad hominem" thing is a regular standby. The cream of the joke is that I invariably start taking the rise in response to their attack on a post of mine or of someone else - in lieu of being able to argue their corner.

The thing is that our friend clearly hasn't got a clue about the average person's economic lot, and how we're twisted by his friends.

[anigbrowl]

24. dupe

[anigbrowl]

25. Ah...I disagree with you about the German economy and I become a RW nut.

I only made about $15,000 last year, and suspect I know as much or more about the 'average person's economic lot' than you do. It suits your argument to paint me as a capitalist with wealthy friends, when in fact I'm your basic starving artist. But keep making stuff up, it's amusing to see where your imagination will take you next.

[truedelphi]

15. Some of us already pay close to 45% of our income

Try making around 23 K a year. If you are an indie contractor, the first 15% you make each day belongs to Social Security - not that you will ever ever see it.

Then there is the matter of Federal income taxes, state taxes, (In Calif. those kick in the second you make around $ 175 a week) city taxes, MediCare, etc.

And as it may now cost to go to the park ($ 6 for each federal or state park I can think of) plus any items like speeding tickets, parking tickets, etc, and you may be edging awful close to 45%.

Without receiving any thing you need, like medical insurance or health care or higher education.

[anigbrowl]

26. That's my income range, but I'm not paying 45% in taxes

Maybe you should visit a tax preparer or something. Filing on schedule C is kind of a scam because you have to pay double into social security, but surely you have some deductibles as well. Your state income taxes are deductible from your federal taxes, I seem to recall. And speeding/parking tickets aren't taxes...

[truedelphi]

27. NO speeding tickets, parking fines etc are not taxes

But with the fact that the Feds are cutting back on paying to local governments, local governments have to figure out a way to make up for the loss. So the cost of parking by paying for parking meters in the cities, and the cost of parking tickets, driving offenses fines, etc continue to rise.

[Joe Chi Minh]

5. I don't doubt for one second that you have no idea what I'm talking about. The rest of your post

more than amply illustrates that. I'm a European, too. Unfortunately, not of the continental variety.

If you think giving the workforce of a major company such as BMW a month's paid leave is no big deal, I don't think you're quite the ticket. Crackers! I don't know if all Americans get one WEEK'S paid holiday! Never mind a health service that I'm sure would put ours in the UK increasingly to shame. Do you have any conception how shrill the squealing would be in the UK if a car works - do we make motorbikes any more? - were to lay off its its work-force for a month on full pay! And if the unions were to ask for it: the skys falling! The sky's falling!

But I'm very glad you brought up the incredible absorption of East Germany. I was on the point of doing so myself. I believe it was even after that unification, a Guardian economic commentator pointed out that (even as our dim-wits were scoffing at them, like you) it would take approximately 100 years for the UK to achieve the level of wealth of Germany, at our customary rate. But then our growth in wealth rely on credit bubles and financial scams, don't they? Not manufacturing. As a matter of fact, Angela Merkel very anxiously warned Bush last year of the folly of continuing to enlarge the credit bubble in the US.

However, unification makes Germany's economic performance even more remarkable. Are you aware - difficult to think you would be - that Germany is the third largest exporter in the world? Of course, their exports wil suffer now, but it's a trusim that the UK will suffer more than any other half-comparable Eropean countries.

And for all the imperfections and difficulties Germany is suffering with the rest of the world, their population would be very much better off than ours. And that would include the unemployed.

As for them having creit problems of their own, pardon me if I believe their finance Mnister more than you, in terms of its significance.

And as for living in Germany, there is no question that I would be better off financially, but I don't covet stuff. As long as we can eat and pay our bills, we're happy. Personally, I would be content to live among a New Guinea tribe in the jungle. I have more respect for hunter-gatherers than I have for Western man such as you appear to be, having swallowed all the propaganda of its dimmest and most cynical, whole.

[anigbrowl]

7. So you're too selfless to go spend a year in Germany. Right.

Take your baseless ad-hominem attacks somewhere else. I have lived in Germany (as well as the UK, US, Netherlands, Ireland and Spain), it has many good things about it (which I acknowledged) and quite a number of frustrating things as well.

[rvablue]

11. Interesting.....

you are mean and nasty when someone asks you your opinion.

And then freak out when someone challenges you.

DU is for exchaning ideas and you don't seem too pleased either with people that want your opinion or who question.

Yes, there is no doubt you are Eurpean, IMHO...........

[Joe Chi Minh]

17. I've lived in Germany too, you hapless mutt. What has living in different countries

got to do with selflessness or, indeed, the price of fish and chips?

Favouring a simple life is no more selfless than favouring a hecticly distracting and superfical one. It is just more peaceful,likes of and makes more sense than eating your heart our for the latest mobile phone that makes pancakes and fries your brain at the same time. But feel free.

[anigbrowl]

22. Is that right.

For some reason, I don't find your remarks credible...but since you seem to think I'm some sort of hyper-capitalist, enjoy.

[Joe Chi Minh]

28. "For some reason, I don't find your remarks credible..." Snap!

But I'm mortified you don't believe me.

Of course, no country can remain unaffected by the global depression, and the very fact that even Germany is affected makes big news. Indeed, while the first link I provide to Reuters UK in September refers to the country's "relatively sound fundamentals":

"An end to the export boom that has long underpinned German prosperity leaves the country's economy, despite its relatively sound fundamentals, facing the prospect of several quarters of low or negative growth,"

...the second link to a BBC site is extremely gloomy, as a number German commentators pour it on. But any European with half a brain would prefer to sit out this depression in Germany than probably any country outside of Scandinavia.

[RichardRay]

9. Ohhhh, he said 'recrudescence', I'm in love... n/t

[Joe Chi Minh]

18. It's not as good as Saxby Chambliss or Arlen Spectre though.

[southernyankeebelle]

16. Yep

They also have a great sick leave policy for mothers to be. They can stay out of work for at least one yr and they get half their paycheck. They have a think called kinderkell. They pay you for each child you have. But of course they do have people that take advantage of it. They can't stand the turks because they have a lot of children. Some of them live back in their native country. They wanted the Germany people to have more children because the birth rate for them is dropping.

[Joe Chi Minh]

21. Rotten Commie shitehawks. They're known for it, you know. The West German

syndrome. Notorious. Rust-bucket losers. Now, a country like Colombia.... or Guatemala.... they know how to do things. How to organise their society for the common good.