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RollWithIt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-13-08 08:29 PM
Original message
Democrats Need to Understand, the Auto Bailout is a Major Left vs Right Battlefield....
If GM and Ford are not bailed out, you will see the final destruction of the City of Detroit. The final nail in the coffin of the United Auto Workers of America. In the end, somewhere in the range of 2 to 3 million individuals will lose their jobs. It's not just the line workers, the designers, the engineers, the executives. It's also the dealers, the loan agents, the neighborhood stores, the realtors, the land investors. I could go on and on and on about the extreme misery that would be caused. We're no longer talking about bailing out banks. We're talking about bailing out real blue collar workers and the cities they live in.

Many will complain that GM & Ford leadership didn't properly prepare for this by investing in alternative technology. That is partially true. Though there is no guarantee at this point that a car could be getting 100 mph and sell well in this economic collapse. That is why the bailout bill has to be structured, just as Obama said in his speeches, "To ReTool so we can make cars of the 21st century." That doesn't mean that bailout bill can't be properly written to force change. Remember the Obama slogan, Change?


Finally, please take the time to read this article by this highly regarded Right-Wing Nutjob. Notice all the standard anti-union codeword phrases he uses.

http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/11/13/mitchell.auto/index.html

Editor's Note: Daniel J. Mitchell is a senior fellow at the Cato Institute, a libertarian public policy research foundation. He formerly worked at The Heritage Foundation and as an economist for Republican Sen. Bob Packwood and the Senate Finance Committee. He also served on the 1988 Bush-Quayle transition team.
Daniel Mitchell says an auto bailout would subsidize bad management and reward inflexible unions.

(CNN) -- General Motors, Ford, Chrysler and the United Auto Workers union are pouring millions of dollars into a lobbying campaign for a taxpayer bailout.

The money devoted to influence peddling in Washington would be better spent on improving quality and finding ways to reduce a bloated cost structure, but both management and UAW have decided that fleecing taxpayers is a better option.

A taxpayer bailout would be a terrible mistake. It would subsidize the shoddy management practices of the corporate bureaucrats at General Motors, Ford and Chrysler, and it would reward the intransigent union bosses who have made the synonymous with inflexible and anti-competitive work rules.

Perhaps most important, though, is that a bailout would be bad for the long-term health of the American auto industry. It would discriminate against the 113,000 Americans who have highly-coveted jobs building cars for Nissan, BMW and other auto companies that happen to be headquartered in other nations.

These companies demonstrate that it is possible to build cars in America and make money. Putting them at a competitive disadvantage with handouts for the U.S.-headquartered companies would be highly unjust.





This is standard conservative logic. Ship the money oversees. Companies with union workers are bad. It's not really just the company, it's the workers and their pesky worker rights. Free market!

Wonder how that has worked out?

Take the time to find out how many cars BMW & Nissan builds in America. Then find out how many cars GM & Ford manufacture. Find out if Nissan was to go under, how many American workers would actually be affected in comparison to GM & Ford. It's a straw man argument and he fucking knows it. He doesn't care who makes it or where. He just wants cheaper. So what if Americans can't build it as cheap. We need MORE tax breaks for the wealthy so they can buy MORE BMWs. Tax benefits for buying American? Forget it!

Thankfully, we have sane leadership starting Jan 20 2009.
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rzemanfl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-13-08 08:39 PM
Response to Original message
1. The problem is that the car companies must have something to
make and sell while they are re-tooling. A mechanism has to be found to get people to buy the cars of the past while cars of the future are being developed. That is a tall order. I am inclined to nurse my current car another year or two. Especially after learning today that our electric bills are going up 25% after the first of the year so Progress Energy can build a new nuke plant in a state that is perfectly situated for developing tide and solar power instead. That changes the plug-in hybrid equation too, raising the cost of driving a Volt by a fourth before it even hits the market.
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RollWithIt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-13-08 08:45 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. Americans have to be encouraged to buy American....
The bill can and I suspect will be written to encourage the purchase of those vehicles in the short run. Keep in mind most of the fuel efficient models are scheduled to arrive on the lots about a year from now.
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mike_c Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-13-08 08:40 PM
Response to Original message
2. not sure I agree that the issue is so unambiguous....
Edited on Thu Nov-13-08 08:49 PM by mike_c
First, I'm a union worker and one hundred percent supporter of labor. But that said, preserving worker's unions is not in and of itself a good justification for preserving the industries they work in if those industries have become unable to function due to their own mismanagement, shortsightedness, etc.

What about all those whose livelihoods were distroyed by the collapse of the horse-and-buggy industry? Should we have worked to preserve their jobs, and all the downstream economic benefits of a prosperous wagon manufactoring sector? The fact that people do not want or need their product notwithstanding?

I do think some sort of help for the auto industry is justified, but dammit, I want to see any bailout coupled with STRONG reform measures, and perhaps outright nationalization of the industry. Let's not throw a bone to the workers while we throw golden parachutes to the management.
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RollWithIt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-13-08 08:47 PM
Response to Reply #2
6. Come on Bro... the Horse & Buggy Industry? nt
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mike_c Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-13-08 08:59 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. sounds ridiculous, but the American auto industry produces too many products...
...that are nearly as out of step with the consumer market as the horse-and-buggy industry. And I drive a Ford Ranger!

The fact that Americans buy so many foreign automobiles MUST tell us something about the state of the U.S. auto industry-- something the industry has woefully failed to deal with.

I don't want to see America lose its heavy manufacturing base, and I certainly don't want to see good union jobs lost. I think we could build new industries, and keep those workers employed. I just question whether giving more money to the ones who have already failed is a smart response.
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BobRossi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-13-08 08:45 PM
Response to Original message
4. People don't get it.
Without heavy manufacturing, we all go back to picking potatoes and standing in soup lines, and not just Detroit.
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PinkoDonkey Donating Member (112 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-13-08 11:38 PM
Response to Reply #4
21. Thanks.
Glad some gets it. "Post-industrial" my ass. Everyone should just look around the room they are sitting in and start tallying the things that are mass produced and then ask themselves if we live in a post-industrial society.

Does anyone have stats on how many other jobs are supported by these fair-paying union jobs? How many stores, restaurants, civil servants etc?
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LatteLibertine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-13-08 08:46 PM
Response to Original message
5. With the way the bailout is going
I hope people only buy what they must. Stop pissing away your cash on things you don't need.
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bbinacan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-13-08 08:59 PM
Response to Original message
8. They should declare
bankruptcy and restructure. They can do this and still stay in business.
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Trajan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-13-08 09:08 PM
Response to Original message
9. This is too simplistic ...
There are many viewpoints from many parts of the spectrum ....

I pointed out to the RW nutcases at work that; If EVERYBODY made income like autoworkers, then everybody would be buying their cars ....

The problem is NOT auto workers making too much; It is the rest of us not making enough ...

IF I had enough money, I would gladly buy another US made car .... I simply cannot afford a new car, and in fact bought a 20 year old USED Toyota Camry instead : cash money ...

That was the best deal for the money I had in my hand ... It was really my only choice ....

This much I know: IF workers make a good wage, they spend money ... If you reduce their incomes to ONLY what the pay out for basic living expenses, then they will stop buying 'things' ....

That is where we stand today: Citizens unwilling to buy beyond the basic necessities ....
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TexasObserver Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-13-08 09:14 PM
Response to Original message
10. True. For the GOP this about not funding a Democratic State, a Democratic city & labor
The GOP cares more about saving the bonuses on Wall Street than in saving Michigan.
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blue_onyx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-13-08 09:53 PM
Response to Reply #10
15. This is very true
Bush is probably pissed that Michigan voted for McCain in the 2000 primary, for Gore in the 2000 general election, and Kerry in 2004. We didn't show him any love so he won't lift a finger to help us. I think we have to hope the auto companies make it until Jan. 20th because I don't see Bush helping. I heard on our local news that Sen. Stabenow is even concerned about him vetoing any bailout package Congress puts together.
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TexasObserver Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-13-08 10:12 PM
Response to Reply #15
16. I think he will veto such a bill, unless he gets something he wants in return.
The Columbia Free Trade Agreement.
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RB TexLa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-13-08 09:14 PM
Response to Original message
11. The UAW will be fine. Someone will replace the big three, they will buy up their plants and the
government will step in to guarantee the retirees health and pension plans. The new companies will go to the UAW for it's ready made skilled workforce. UAW will be in the stronger bargaining position and can work new contracts and partnerships from the ground up.

The current North American automakers don't deserve to be bailed out, they deserve to go away. The employees deserve to be bailed out and the government propping up and guaranteeing the Consolidated Auto Manufactures Pension and Health Trust is the best way to do that so the big three can be liquidated at the lowest possible cost.

The government hands new investors and management the infrastructure at the lowest cost and removes one of the biggest costs, this is the bailout for the UAW. It takes care of retired UAW and the current workforce without rewarding the current companies or it's management. With the contracts and input UAW can have in the new companies, people could quickly forget the names Ford, Chrysler and GM ever existed.
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RollWithIt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-13-08 09:27 PM
Response to Reply #11
13. Your post is a joke... sorry
Edited on Thu Nov-13-08 09:28 PM by RollWithIt
government will step in to guarantee the retirees health and pension plans. The new companies will go to the UAW for it's ready made skilled workforce. UAW will be in the stronger bargaining position and can work new contracts and partnerships from the ground up.

You think it's ok for the government to pay for retirement benefits, but not current workers. You do realize that the benefits are equal to current payroll? Nope, you don't. And you also don't realize that not all states have union protections. For example, start an auto factory in Florida. An anti-union state. Problem Solved! If you're a right wing scumbag.

The current North American automakers don't deserve to be bailed out, they deserve to go away. The employees deserve to be bailed out and the government propping up and guaranteeing the Consolidated Auto Manufactures Pension and Health Trust is the best way to do that so the big three can be liquidated at the lowest possible cost.

Sure, let's sell off American Manufacturing at the lowest possible cost. WHAT?????

The government hands new investors and management the infrastructure at the lowest cost and removes one of the biggest costs, this is the bailout for the UAW. It takes care of retired UAW and the current workforce without rewarding the current companies or it's management. With the contracts and input UAW can have in the new companies, people could quickly forget the names Ford, Chrysler and GM ever existed.

Quickly? You mean a generation?
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RB TexLa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-13-08 09:38 PM
Response to Reply #13
14. No, it's not a joke. Stop thinking that UAW and Ford Chrysler and GM are synonymous
There is already a pension and health fund at each company. Consolidated and guaranteed by the federal government it could provide for the retirees, remember this will not have any new retirees going in to it. Remove that liability from the 3 and the sell of the plants and equipment to the new car companies becomes less expensive. Shareholders will either take a fraction of their value or shares in the new companies allowing more of the money from the sale of assets to go to the consolidated fund.

The people starting new car companies are not going to build new factories anywhere if there is government money to help retool the current factories they can buy from the failed companies. Them being able to purchase the factories at the lowest cost is what can put UAW in a good position with them, gone are the costs of retirees and much lower plant and equipment costs, two major bargaining chips used by management.

Like I said people are going to have to stop thinking that a great labor union and workers are tied to 3 failed companies forever.
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RollWithIt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-13-08 11:49 PM
Response to Reply #14
24. You didn't answer one single response...
Edited on Thu Nov-13-08 11:52 PM by RollWithIt
And actually, I'm really angry at you. You expect that the Government is just going to put millions of people out of work and then immediately employ them.

You're sick. Do you not understand that all of those people will go on the unemployment roles for MONTHS. 2 million x 200 dollars per week= 400 million per week for at least six months. Do the math you ignorant idiot. You think the government is going to just step in and magically create jobs for all those people within 6 months? TRY FIVE YEARS. THATS HOW LONG IT WOULD TAKE TO STAND IT BACK UP.

GOD FUCKING DAMNIT. HAVE YOU NO HUMANITY? FUCKING GOOGLE "NUMBER OF EMPLOYEES RELATED TO GM"
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wtmusic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-14-08 12:25 AM
Response to Reply #14
27. Agree. There is a separation anxiety issue here.
Propping up regressive monoliths only prolongs the agony. We have the talent and the workforce to make the best cars in the world, but we need initiative and money going to the right people in management.
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EC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-13-08 09:22 PM
Response to Original message
12. From the RW talking points this is a war on the
Unions...
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Joe Fields Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-13-08 11:39 PM
Response to Reply #12
22. You are correct. I've been monitoring rw talk radio, and the discussion
is very clearly being shaped that unions are the big three automaker's downfall.

A load of crap, to be sure, but I'm hearing it more and more.
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smiley_glad_hands Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-13-08 10:38 PM
Response to Original message
17. Unions vs. Cheap Chinese labor. eom
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bertman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-13-08 11:10 PM
Response to Original message
18. I cast my vote with mike_c and RGBolen. It's beyond high time the Big Three started paying
the price for their ineptitude and visionless approach to auto design and the needs of the population. Japan started kicking their asses and they ignored opportunity after opportunity to go for higher mileage and high-quality smaller cars. The last time Congress tried to pass higher, but still TOO LOW, CAFE standards the Big Three lobbied their asses off (along with Big Oil) and defeated the effort.

The handwriting has been on the wall for 30 years but Detroit has been so blinded by its own arrogance that it wouldn't read the writing. My theory is that they have intended all along to play the TOO BIG TO FAIL card just like certain of their Wall Street brethren.

I don't know the answer but there has to be a better way than rewarding FAILURE ON AN EPIC SCALE. If this is the hope for America and America's workers we are screwn.

This needs to be carefully considered and a way found to have America INVEST in these companies so they pay us back BEFORE the CEO's get their golden parachutes and bonuses. The great minds of our nation can come up with a better way of solving this than another frickin giveaway.

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Atman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-13-08 11:21 PM
Response to Original message
19. Bush let New Orleans go first. Now Detroit.
:(

.
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NotGivingUp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-13-08 11:27 PM
Response to Original message
20. Monopolies that were created/assisted by government...and now we should bail them out?
No, I don't think so. Stop making a partisan issue out of it and think what our country is supposed to be about. Our tax dollars are not supposed to be used to prop up monopolies...let them die.
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ShadowLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-13-08 11:48 PM
Response to Original message
23. Republicans are also motivated now to let the economy get worse so they can blame it on us
In the republican's minds the bailout has always been unpopular, and with us having such a large majority in congress and the presidency what's there to lose by making the economic problems get worse, and stay bad for the next 2 to 4 years?

That way they can blame it on us as the incumbent party, and they hope we can't point out in places like Michigan that would be hit even harder by the GOP that it's the GOPs fault for not bailing them out, since that would be being pro-bail out.
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specimenfred1984 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-13-08 11:49 PM
Response to Original message
25. I just saw a Ford commercial with Dennis Leary's voice over
Is paying him a million bucks to hype a PU truck a good use of OUR TAXPAYER DOLLARS?
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Truth2Tell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-14-08 12:16 AM
Response to Original message
26. Make it contingent
Edited on Fri Nov-14-08 12:18 AM by Truth2Tell
on WAAAAAY higher CAFE standards and I'm there.

Edit to add: Maybe also include serious "made in America" outsourcing requirements. Might as well set some rules if we're gonna pay the bills. That's what my parents always did. :)
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