Do the Amish think their shit doesn't require proper sanitary treatment?

[Bunny]

http://www.tribune-democrat.com/local/local_story_318234222.html

<snip>
EBENSBURG — Whether two families from an ultraconservative Amish sect will be able to continue living in their newly built farmhouses may depend on whether a Cambria County judge can hammer out a compromise on sewage and code violations next week at one of the Amish farms.

Two county agencies are seeking a court injunction to bar the families from the houses because they have not complied with sewage-disposal and building-code requirements.

After listening to nearly five hours of testimony Thursday, Judge Norman Krumenacker said that he believes a compromise can be worked out that will not violate the Amish’s religious beliefs, but at the same time will protect society.

As he previously indicated in a case involving outhouses on the sect’s school property, Krumenacker said there has to be proper disposal of human waste, and that is not a matter of religious freedom.
<snip>

I wanted to name this thread "Fuck the Amish" but I thought that might be a little inflammatory. But honestly, do they think their waste products are somehow special, and the rest of us (who dispose of our shit in a sanitary manner) should just have to live with it?

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

1. Better title:

The Amish Think Their Shit Don't Stink.

[1620rock]

3. Leave them alone they harm no-one. What next bathrooms for farm animals?

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

6. Sorry, no.

You don't get free passes to be outside the law just because you're the member of some loony cult.

[northernsoul]

15. What? I don't get to engage in human sacrifice?

The Invisible Pink Unicorn told me I had to!

[skooooo]

21. Loony compared to what???

:shrug:

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

22. People who aren't afraid of buttons and zippers.

:shrug:

[skooooo]

28. We do a lot more loony things to the environment...

..than the Amish do. Wouldn't you agree? So who's "loonier?" It's a matter of perspective, and you should consider more than just one!

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

38. Ironic, then...

that the Amish are taking the more environmentally destructive side of the issue.

[bperci108]

Destructive?

How so?

[kestrel91316]

41. They aren't afraid of them. They simply consider them overly showy

and attention-grabbing. They don't call them the Plain People for no reason.

[treestar]

67. Depends

I was touring an Amish house once and they said it was that they reminded them of the soldiers that used to persecute them.

Maybe that is old-fashioned urban legend, though.

[kestrel91316]

110. Yeah, that's why the "no mustaches, no riding astride horses,

no brass buttons" still holds today. It's about the soldiers and the Amish pacifism and history of persecution.

[LanternWaste]

53. Or bailouts, or wars either...

"People who aren't afraid of buttons and zippers."

Or corporate bailouts, or wars either...

[SammyWinstonJack]

125. Compared to all organized religion? They are all loony

[AndrewP]

37. Exactly

[bperci108]

49. Ratchet back the "loony cult" shit a bit, eh?

The Amish I have come into contact with have been some of the kindest, gentlest, most charitable people I have ever known. They know more about living in harmony with Earth than any modern-living "green" person. And one thing they DON'T do is shove their religion on others; They merely live their lives quietly in their own way, harming no one. I respect that.


A few reactionaries around here could learn a thing or two about humility from them.

And as for these "laws" you are so concerned with, did you ever stop to think that those some of those laws are bullshit and need to be challenged?

Don't let your anti-religious prejudices overshadow your common sense or good judgment. :eyes:

(And I say this as an atheist...I have no use for religion of any kind.)

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

50. Umm, no.

The Amish make scientologists look like Richard Dawkins.

[bperci108]

58. How?

I can't wait to hear this....

Even Dawkins doesn't engage in this sort of self-righteous pissery. (Unlike some of my fellow non-believers.)

[iamthebandfanman]

77. besides both being religions

they have absolutely nothing in common.

what a horrible comparison.

[MadrasT]

92. How so?

I've lived amongst Amish communities for over 30 years. I have a lot of respect for them. They're peaceful people, with firm convictions, and pretty much keep to themselves. (I'm an atheist, if that matters w/r/t framing my comment).

I don't have an opinion about the particular case in the OP (don't know enough about this one incident), but to disparage an entire community of peaceful people, who generally don't hurt anybody? Seems a little over the top to me. :shrug:

[iamthebandfanman]

76. yeah really

they have every right to live the way they do...
every amish person ive ever met is also exactly as you describe... kind and gentle... ready to lend a hand if needed.
infact, if it werent for the weird rules on joining up id probably say they are the sanest of all the extremely religious sects...

im sure a compromise will come out of this tho, so i dont see the big deal.

[jerzymom60]

104. Do they also have the right to rape and molest their daughters?

Deprive their members of anything more than an 8th grade education?

It's probably wise to approach closed ultra conversative religious communities who are shut off from the rules and eyes of a larger society, with somewhat guarded skepticism.

They are a religious cult. Numerous reports have come to light showing that incest is common and worse, their own religious creed of "forgiveness" prevents perpetrators from being brought to justice.

Most things that look quaint on the outside, are usually anything but.

[leftynyc]

114. WTF are you talking about

I think you're confusing them with the fundamentalist Mormom cult out in TX, AZ & UT.

[superduperfarleft]

121. No, that sounds like a pretty apt description of the amish.

Thrown in the puppy mills, and I'd say that poster hit the nail on the head.

Google "sexual abuse" and "amish" and see what I am talking about.

[Cid_B]

129. Hey chuckles...

... just because they haven't moved "up", and I use the term loosely, to our cell phone, mocha fuckin latte, prius lives doesn't make them crazy. In their eyes they had it right and so why change it.

So much hostility for people who just want to live and let live. My spidey senses tell me you have other issues.

[superduperfarleft]

140. Hey chuckles, do some research.

The reality of the amish community is a lot different than the cartoon you have in your head. There are numerous problems with sexual abuse within their communities, as well as their involvement in incredibly brutal puppy mills.

The amish suck as much as any other crazy fundamentalist cult.

[goddess40]

142. You are so right

They make it so difficult for anyone to get away thanks to their isolation.

[HelenWheels]

122. They are oppressive to their women and children

Sorry, but these aren't wonderful people. They are isolationists. Their members choice is to be 100% Amish or 100% not, if you don't accept their religion completely you must walk away from family and friends and since you're raised to know little of the outside world there really is no choice.

[Lance_Boyle]

132. some laws are bullshit, yes. marijuana criminalization, for instance.

But sanitation is a GOOD thing. On this issue, fuck the Amish - their shit needs treatment like your shit and my shit. It ain't some kind of magic, non-toxic (dare I say?) holy shit.

[Lumpsum]

133. To be fair, the Amish don't promote their religion.

Or use it to rationalize wars. Or use it to pass anti-gay legislation. And so on.

They ask to be left alone. In return, they provide people like me who live in Pennsylvania awesome meat and vegetables.

[soothsayer]

10. Actually, a place nearby that trained bomb sniffing dogs had to put in a separate septic system

for them.

[maxsolomon]

11. tell it to the dogs in their puppy mills

nt

[MiniMe]

36. Great minds think alike.

:hi:

[OwnedByFerrets]

56. TY

[MiniMe]

35. Have you ever heard of Amish puppy mills? They are the absolute worst

They treat their dogs like crap, overbreed them, and then electrocute them or something when their usefulness is over. They are very difficult to be adopted out because they have zero socialization and are scared of people. My poor little boy spent the first 6 months of his life in an Amish Puppy mill in a crate in a shed. He never got out of that crate. He came into the rescue I volunteer for a total wreck, scared to death of people and everything else. He is much improved after about 16 months, but he still spooks easily.

Except for that, they very well may be harmless, but I can never forgive them for that.

[AndrewP]

40. That is the exact reason I don't like the Amish

Their consistently poor treatment of animals. I work in animal rescue, so although many people don't like animal welfare issues I can honestly say anyone who abuses animals should go fuck themselves.

[CountAllVotes]

43. puppy mills = a very sick mind!

It is plain sick the way they treat animals.

I had a puppy mill dog myself briefly. I had to have her put down not long after I got her as she was very sick!

I'm still mad as hell about this and the freak of a woman that I got her from is still doing business. I wish she'd go broke and close up her "shop" of horrors!

They also enjoying debarking dogs as well being they can't stand to listen to the crying and whimpering of these abused animals that they breed indiscriminately and auction off if they can get away with it. I have no sympathy for these people.

And their shit don't stink or so they think? It stinks so bad I can smell it here!

Welcome to the DU btw!

:dem: :kick:

[MiniMe]

48. Welcome to DU. And Bravo for working with rescues.

You should check out the Pets group too.

I have had some sad cases come in to me from the Amish Breeders. The one I kept after fostering him is one of the better stories, as sad a story as it is. When we get the dogs that were used as breeders, things don't always turn out well. It takes a really long time to get them to trust you.

[shireen]

72. regulations?

are there any efforts underway to regulate this horrific "industry?"

[CountAllVotes]

45. I cannot forgive them either

I guess they never considered that creatures are sacred. They view them as "livestock" and nothing more.

They are a sick lot no doubt. I have zero respect for them or anyone that abuses and neglects animals! :mad:

:dem:

[bperci108]

60. Hmmmm.....

"...and then electrocute them or something when their usefulness is over."

Quite a feat for people who don't have any sort of electricity. :eyes:

[Goblinmonger]

70. I even heard that they take their cattle

and walk them up a ramp so they can use their own weight in the butchering process and then shoot them right between the eyes. Oh, wait, that's not the Amish, that's the mainstream culture.

[iamthebandfanman]

84. they overbread themselves, why wouldnt they do it to the dogs?

seriously.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

85. lulz

and interbreed.

[iamthebandfanman]

89. yup, which is why i said they are great people

and really the least harmful of any religious nuts...
besides their bizarre rules for becoming a member of their community...


they actually prefer to imbread....
infact a very very very small percentage of their community comes from outside bloodlines...
they also reject outsiders from joining if they have any mental or physical defect....


but seriously, other than being strange ... i dont see the problem with them.

compared to other 'cults' ... they are saintly.

[MiniMe]

99. Overbread? Imbread? Do you plan on eating them or something?

:shrug:

[superduperfarleft]

95. It's not just dogs.

These kind, gentle cartoon characters also turn a blind eye (or actively engage in) the rampant sexual abuse in their communities.

I have the same contempt for the amish that I do for all religious lunatics.

[orleans]

112. amish have puppy mills? i had no idea--i thought they wanted to

stay away from society--they're doing business with pet stores?

[MiniMe]

113. yes, and they are horrible. Google Amish puppy mills sometime if you have

a strong stomach.

[pollo poco]

115. The Amish do not stay totally away

They do stuff like buy cars for other (non Amish) people and pay them to do the driving. I spent some time in Amish country. They own restaurants, and puppy mills. If they feel that doing business is in some way against their faith, they just hire someone to do it for them. And, like so many cults, they do bad things to women and children, as well as puppies and other animals. A lot of people have them confused with the Quakers, who really exemplify the values that many ascribe to the Amish. There are a couple of good documentaries about contemporary Amish life, well worth viewing.

And shit is shit is shit. All communities have to deal with it. What "good neighbor" wants other people to have to deal with their shit? Good neighbors have more respect for others.

[RobinA]

117. They Treat

all their animals like crap. No judgement, just sayin'. The animal is only as valuable as it is useful. It's a more subsistence way of life than most of us are used to.

[JANdad]

120. Did you report them to children services?

Your "Boy" being locked in a crate sounds like "child" abuse to me...

[MiniMe]

127. LOL

I call him my baby boy.

[XemaSab]

124. The puppy mills are AWFUL, but they also scam people WRT "their" quilts

Yes folks, most "Amish" quilts on the market were made in Southeast Asia.

[OwnedByFerrets]

54. They may harm no one......

but they sure dont have a problem being cruel and hateful towards animals.

"The Amish say they raise dogs much as they would any other livestock, restricting the dogs to small cages and killing the parents when they are no longer productive."

"Fed and bred. That's it. No walks. No interaction with humans. That means the dogs eat and relieve themselves in the same 2-by-2-foot cage for about eight years until their breeding days are done."


Completely off topic for OP, but I cant let you get away with saying they are harmless.;)

[Vidar]

62. Thank you. Though I don't agree with many of their beliefs, the Amish

are consistent, honorable and honest, and don't deserve this sort of stupid attack.

[tblue37]

136. They harm dogs. The Amish are some of the worst offenders where

puppy mills are concerned, so I have lost much of the sympathy I used to have for them.

[iamthebandfanman]

81. i have a better one even 'im full of hatred' n/t

[phantom power]

2. Yes, in the same way they expect us...

to live with their refusal of vaccinations, so they can breed otherwise-controlled diseases like polio.

[Dennis Donovan]

4. Great... now you're gonna piss off all the Amish DUers...

:silly:

[RebelOne]

8. I don't think we have any Amish DUers.

You need electricity for the Internet and they don't use electricity.

[HeraldSquare212]

13. But remember, Obama carried Lancaster County.

[Jackpine Radical]

16. But the elders can grant an exception under certain circumstances.

[123infinity]

64. Amish are to electricity as Baptists are to whiskey.

:shrug:

[XemaSab]

126. So if you go fishing, you have to take TWO Amish along?

:shrug:

[Dennis Donovan]

111. That was the joke...

;):hi:

[enough]

5. Many (not all) Amish take the same attitude toward their animals' shit.

They are often (not always) resistant to the idea of buffering streams within their pastures, even if the state money is available to do the planting.

[The Wielding Truth]

7. If they dig their own wells and compost their own waste then

they would have no need for a public sewer system and need not participate. If they start polluting the land or water out side their own land then the would be responsible to the larger community.

[gratuitous]

9. Depends on what is "proper" sanitary treatment

These folks are Grover Norquist "government writ small" people, who actually walk their talk. County sanitary regulations have certain requirements, and I tend to think they are indeed for people's own good. But the Swartzentruver folks are fiercely self-sufficient. If they screw up the disposal of their own waste and poison themselves, they'll also take care of themselves without recourse to outsiders, even well-meaning outsiders.

This is in big contrast to the fiercely independent folks who truly think they're above the laws not only of human society but also of physics, time and space. And when reality comes crashing down on their pointy little heads, they're the first ones to go running to judges who they hope will be activist in ignoring the law and giving them redress for their own stupidity. See for example the current trillion dollar bailout of our very own Masters of the Universe in the financial sector.

From the sound of the story, the judge seems very interested in working out a compromise that will satisfy the county sanitary regulations as well as the Amish religious sensibilities. It's not that the Amish think their shit don't stink; they just know how to handle it, in contrast with most of us who follow a modern lifestyle that is estranged from the messier aspects of our existence. I wouldn't trust some corner-cutting greedhead putting in a big housing development to install his own private sewer system; I do trust the Amish to continue doing things as they have for centuries.

[spinbaby]

12. Sounds like Swartzentruber

I think the article has confused the Swartzentruver family name with the Swartzentruber sect. The Swartzentruber sect always seems to be in trouble in Ohio for things like refusing to put reflective triangles on the back of the buggies. They're REALLY conservative.

[RamboLiberal]

137. Probably the same sect

I've read of Amish in this same area of PA as this story having problems with the law over not wanting to put reflective triangles on their buggies.

On edit must be same sect - oh and good solution worked out.

PITTSBURGH -- The required display of orange triangles on their horse-drawn buggies is a thing of the past for Pennsylvania's Swartzentruber Amish after a panel of three Pennsylvania Superior Court judges ruled 2-1 today that the triangle is no longer the only legal means of calling attention to their buggies.

"We are delighted that the Superior Court upheld Pennsylvania's venerable historic tradition of respecting the rights of religious minorities," said Witold Walczak, the Pittsburgh ACLU's legal director. "This is an important victory not only for the Swartzentrubers, but for all people who value religious liberty."

The decision, which puts Pennsylvania in line with other states to have addressed the issue, allows the Swartzentrubers buggies to be outlined with a retroreflective tape that the Swartzentrubers find less offensive to their religious beliefs, but that previously had earned them traffic tickets - and even jail time.

The Swartzentrubers object to both the color and the triangular shape of the emblem Pennsylvania requires them to display. Nine other states already accommodate the religious beliefs of conservative Amish groups by allowing the use of retroreflective tape instead of triangles.

Pennsylvania Superior Court Rules: Amish Can Stick With Reflective Tape on Buggies (10/21/2003)

http://www.aclu.org/religion/gen/16344prs20031021.html

[boobooday]

Septic tanks are the work of SATAN!

But not that difficult to maintain.

[Jackpine Radical]

14. I think outhouses are probably less of an environmental problem than

conventional rural septic systems. For one thing, you aren't constantly running water through the shit to spread it out in the soil & get it into the water table. One of the better rural systems for limiting septic pollution is the flushless toilet, which is basically a redesigned outhouse.

Years ago I recall a legal sanitary code that required that wells be at least 75 feet from septic systems, but the code said that you could have a well within 25 feet of an outhouse. When I asked why that was, I was told that outhouses are less polluting, that the sewage didn't disperse from the outhouse like it does from modern septic systems.

[murray hill farm]

23. The Amish do not live in cities.

and usually have large acreage seperate from town and a good distance from cities. It is foolish to impose upon them that they put in septic systems, which are a important for large populations living right next door to each other, but certainly not needed for families living on large acerage outside of the cities. an outhouse is much more friendly to the environment in such a case than a septic system...is easier to maintain..and to move when needed, while filling in the old hole. All in all, the outhouse is a better choice....and should be of no consequense or concern to anyone else living miles away.

[Bunny]

30. I grew up less than five miles from where one of these farms is located.

Most of my family still lives there. I'm quite familiar with the rural lifestyle, pre-21st century. But their preferred method of disposing of their waste, i.e., treating it with lime and then spreading it over fields, is not acceptable in a civilized society. And until they can transport themselves to some magical place where they don't have to coexist with "the English", as they call us, I think their excuse of religious freedom is bullshit.

[bperci108]

63. Please explain your logic behind this ridiculous statement:

"...But their preferred method of disposing of their waste, i.e., treating it with lime and then spreading it over fields, is not acceptable in a civilized society."

What about the concept of fertilizer is "uncivilized"?

Don't know much about organic agriculture, do you? :silly:

[Bunny]

66. Tell that to these folks, who died when "organic" "fertilizer" from their dinner

at Chi Chi's killed them.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chi-Chi's

I guess cholera and Hep A and all the other shit-borne diseases that we've worked so hard to reduce and eradicate are A-OK with you?

[bperci108]

88. Composted manure, even human, is pretty free of pathogens.

And e. coli comes from cattle fed grain and butchered by industrial agriculture, both of which are not consistent with Amish farming practices.

Cholera, dysentary, e.coli, etc. aren't a problem with a properly maintained outhouse.

Most of the world uses shit (including the human variety) for fertilizer and has for the past 10,000 years.

Humankind has done quite well, donchathink? :hi:

[Bunny]

94. I actually don't have a problem with well-constructed outhouses in rural areas.

Those seem to be pretty risk-free. Properly treated manure seems to work fine for fertilizer as well. I just don't like the idea of spreading improperly treated shit on fields that are being used or could be used for agriculture.

And yes, humans have managed to survive for thousands of years, but part of that survival includes recognizing and implementing disease prevention techniques.

:hi:

[kestrel91316]

42. THANK YOU. Very correct.

[onehandle]

17. DUers love to go out of their way to bash the religious.

Obviously they should comply with the law, but if this story was about Liberal Atheists, DUers would be either ignore the story or defend their rights.

Welcome to Anti-Religion Underground.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

19. If the story were about liberal atheists it wouldn't be a story.

Because liberal atheists don't refuse proper sanitation because of their loony religious beliefs.

[onehandle]

26. Oh, right.

Liberal atheists are perfect human beings that do everything perfectly and are never, ever loony because they are perfect.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

31. ...

[NeedleCast]

46. Haha, Nice

Stealing...

[SalviaBlue]

24. Religion should be private.

The "anti" comes in when they start imposing their beliefs on the rest of us. We don't like that here at DU.

[LanternWaste]

101. Much like we do when...

"The "anti" comes in when they start imposing their beliefs on the rest of us."

Much like we do when we engage in political proselytizing...

[XemaSab]

128. Don't you think in this case the Amish are imposing their water pollution on the rest of us?

:shrug:

[Goblinmonger]

75. Wait, I thought it was only Catholics

Weren't Catholics the only religion that was singled out on DU? Someone told me that.

[onehandle]

102. Catholics are the favorite target of the haters. nt

[Goblinmonger]

106. It must be tough to be a Catholic

in this country. I hope that some day society comes to accept them.

[spoony]

93. It's the Acceptable Bigotry

[maxsolomon]

116. no, you're thinking of Appalachians

you may know them as "hillbillies".

[xotoxi]

18. I Empathize with the Amish - My Religious Freedom is being oppressed

I understand what the Amish are going through with regards to the disposal of their waste products.

I am a member of a little known religious group call the "Sewish". In fact, our religion is so small that it is only comprised of me and my wife.

We firmly believe that our bodily waste should return freely and unprocessed to the ocean. Therefore, we stool into a nearby river.

Additionally, I also follow some of the Garbish principles as well, whereby my garbage must also flow freely to the ocean. I do not however follow all of the Garbish traditions, such as allowing my garbage "one month of ripening by The Creator". I find that practice particularly disgusting.

So, like the Amish, the Sewish and the Garbish are also oppressed in how we dispose of waste products. I am glad that I don't live in Pennsylvania.

:-)

[AndyTiedye]

20. Are the Amish OK With Composting Toilets?

[kestrel91316]

44. Um, I don't know how to break this to you......outhouses are the ORIGINAL

low-tech, homemade, plastic-free composting toilet.

Properly constructed, they are much more sanitary than the septic tanks all across America that leak like sieves. Ever wonder WHY the grass is always greener over the septic tank?? Because all that filthy water is soaking into your soil.

[Hannah Bell]

97. it's supposed to.

[MattBaggins]

98. I don't know how to break this too you

but an outhouse is not a composting toilet. You need an aggregate to help the composting of fecal matter. In a few thousand years most outhouses are more likely to be huge coprolite deposits then compost ready for the fields.

[semillama]

118. That's not really true

Only if an outhouse shaft stays "wet" does the waste remain, well, poopy. I've dug part of an outhouse shaft in sandy soils in Wisconsin (I'm an archaeologist) and apart from organic staining, there was zero waste left. That's generally the case with outhouses. I probably would hesitate to excavate any outhouse under 100 years old without seeing a core sample first, but depending on water table depths and how the outhouses are lined, most of the ones that are older than 100 years old have pretty good decomposition of waste products.

[MattBaggins]

134. That's why I said most outhouses

The outhouse you tested was in sandy soil with a good drainage system. I am not going on either side as to whether an outhouse or septic system is better. It depends on topology, geology, and hydrology of the given area. I just disagree with calling either one of them true "composting". Both are too concentrated, dark, damp and cool to be good "composting" options. They need an aggregate, aerobic-anaerobic regions, and preferably a physical location that allows thermophilic activity to take place.

You have the Archaeology background. I have a Biology degree but I actually find the opportunity you had to examine an old outhouse shaft fascinating.

[gollygee]

25. The answer would seem to be that they have to find some way within their religious beliefs

to properly take care of their waste.

But no, you can't do whatever you want because your religion says so. I can't perform human sacrifice or steal people's money if I am part of a religion that requires that.

[WeDidIt]

27. SHITTIEST. THREAD. EVER!

:evilgrin:

[yodoobo]

29. eh. Leave'm alone

they are building an outhouse. Not my cup of tea, but outhouses were pretty common till only a few decades ago.

I used one as recently as the mid 70's at my grandparents farm.

A couple outhouses out in the country isn't going to bother anyone.

[gollygee]

34. If it were just a couple, I'd agree with you

But there are TONS of Amish families, and they're big families, and places are more populated than they were a few decades ago. It's just too much shit to expect the earth to handle on its own.

[yodoobo]

96. Oh I don't know. The earth can process alot of shit

literal shit anyway.

99.9% of the entire land animal kingdom uses the Earth to compost their fecal waste and has done so since the beginning of life on Earth. The vast majority of humanity did the same thing till about 100 years ago.

I honestly don't think even a few thousand farmers spread over hundreds of square miles of farmland is going to make a spec of difference.


Now you know why dirt is brown. :)

[gollygee]

108. Is it ony that many people?

There are a lot of Amish people in Northern Indiana, and there are many many more than "a few thousand over hundreds of square miles." And Lancaster PA is the heart of it so I'd think there would be a lot more there than Northern Indiana.

[bperci108]

68. "A couple outhouses out in the country isn't going to bother anyone. "

It certainly seems to have bothered some of the self-righteous set here at DU.


But that's all in a usual day's posting.... ;)

[DU GrovelBot]

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[Citizen Kang]

33. My mom grew up on a farm with an outhouse

I remember visiting my grandmother and having to use it until I was 7 and she was moved to a nursing home. Do you know what year that was? 1984.

My point, it wasn't all that long ago when it was just fine to use an outhouse and you didn't need permission from the government to take a crap.

Quit bashing the Amish, it is in very poor taste.





edited for spelling

[kestrel91316]

39. IMHO there is NOTHING wrong with a properly constructed and maintained outhouse.

But local governments REALLY hate them because they have a pathological need to control every aspect of everyone's lives.

The important part of this argument, of course, is PROPER construction and maintenance. And that means sprinkling lime and sawdust on the waste as it accumulates, and leaving it to compost in place for a year or two. Human waste is no more hazardous than farm animal waste, and nobody gets their knickers all in a twist over cows pooping in pastures. Outhouses CAN be constructed so as to not pose any threat whatsoever to groundwater.

And yes, I DO have a degree in microbiology, and took an upper division university course on microbiology of water and sewage.

[DS1]

47. haha Amish people suck

and I'm only saying that because I know they'll never see it

[Catherine Vincent]

51. Shit happens.

nt

[sinkingfeeling]

52. Oh for God's sake. Get a life. Your ancestors also used outhouses and there are approximately 1.4

million homes in this country without indoor plumbing.

[JohnnyRingo]

55. If you get flamed by Amish bloggers, I'll really be confused.

You're probably safe bashing them on the internet.

I live here in NE Ohio where many of them reside, and grew up thankful I wasn't born Amish. I imagined a young boy's revelation when his dad would say: "Get up Eli, today you'll learn to roof a house", or the Jealosy I'd feel watching people speed by me on Rte 87 in sports cars while I plod along looking at a horse's tail swish to and fro.

[prayin4rain]

57. haha that is a funny title :) n/t

[secretoftheoldclock]

59. The government has been effing with the Amish: leave them alone!

I buy brown free-range eggs from an Amish farm. I have also bought cheese and even though it wasn't organic, I felt that they most likely don't have a factory farm environment. Some Amish have up and left because the gov has been coming down hard on them. They wanted to microchip their livestock to "prevent disease!" Eff them and their Illumanati-like tactics.

[greguganus]

69. Maybe they will ask you to dispose of their brown free-range turds on your next visit. n/t

[secretoftheoldclock]

The Amish have lived without disease for as long as they've been here

It seems to me that the government doesn't like it when a group of people choose to live apart from all the brainwashing we take as par for the course.

It seems a little funny that I would even have to defend the Amish on a site like this. A true democracy allows for people to live in their own way.

[gollygee]

80. They've lived without disease?

Huh?

[secretoftheoldclock]

83. I meant some great outbreaks due to e-coli contamination...

You know, like the factory farms the government supposedly checks out every so often? How many recalls do we see time and again?

[gollygee]

86. Aaaah

I see what you're talking about, then. I haven't heard about e coli outbreaks among the Amish, that's true.

[secretoftheoldclock]

91. Smaller farms are easier to handle, I suppose...

There was a recent outbreak in Iowa at a supposedly-kosher slaughterhouse. It absolutely turned my stomach when I read about that; especially with the kosher angle. They are supposed to humanely slaughter the livestock (sounds like an oxymoron to me), but the conditions were awful. They had hundreds of illegal workers...I am not sure if that was the source of the Whole Foods' meat recall, but they disappointed me with that news. Thank goodness I don't eat flesh foods...

[LostinVA]

107. Have you also bought puppies from their many puppy mills?

They are notorious -- and prolific -- puppy millers. The Amish culture sucks in many ways, and this is one of the worst, after tacit allowance of incest and other sexual crimes.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

141. Illuminati, not "Illumanati"

The Amish don't give a shit (no pun intended) about their animals. Look at the puppy mills. They are also into sexually abusing their kids.

[shireen]

61. too bad the Amish don't have internet access

They would have learned all about composting toilets, and for the price of each fine, been able to purchase one. Or they could have downloaded instructions on how to build it themselves.

I used to think they were a quaint bunch. But then, I took my mom and brother to Lancaster, PA, which has a thriving Amish tourism industry. Their lives were put on exhibit. The Amish we met were unfriendly, and looked resentful. The driver of our "buggy" was a young man who had been shunned by his family. I came away from the whole experience feeling totally creeped out by the Amish. (On the other hand, I found the Mennonites to be much more friendly.)

Oh well, how they live their lives is none of my business. Unless their actions affect my water and food supply.

Edited to add: My impression of the Amish is based on that one experience. I am sure they represent the usual cross-section of society: kind to crazy.

[treestar]

65. I doubt they see it that way

Since they do not live by modern technology, naturally they don't think much of it, so it's hard to convince them they need to use it to protect the non-Amish. Very tough question, because they may have to violate their religious beliefs for the public health.

[gollygee]

71. There are people in this thread who seem to know what they're talking about

who say outhouses can be made to be composting and very safe for the environment. So, maybe that's the answer - show them how to do that and then they've still got their outhouses and the public's health isn't at risk.

This sounds like a PR problem more than anything.

[greguganus]

73. "PR": Poop Removal. n/t

[gollygee]

74. ROFL!

:D

[bperci108]

78. The non-Amish indeed need protecting....

...but not from the Amish.


Some people just have an innate need to always fuck with other people unnecessarily. County governments can be quite megalomaniacal.

[iamthebandfanman]

79. there will be a compromise

im sorry you hate certain groups of people so much.

its really bad for your health.
you wont live long with all that hatred in your heart friend.

[Bunny]

82. Thanks, Doctor Frist!

Excellent diagnosis! :thumbsup:

[iamthebandfanman]

87. You're welcome!

The first step is admitting you have a problem! You're already moving through the program swiftly! Good on you!

[Bunny]

90. Should I send you some videos or something?

I want to be sure I get the most accurate diagnosis-from-afar.

[ipfilter]

100. I'm asking this in all seriousness

because I don't know much about the Amish. Are they constructing their outhouses from planks of wood hewn from logs which were cut down by hand with axes which were fashioned by a blacksmith from iron ore that was dug out of the ground by hand? I've always wondered where people like the Amish draw the line from the old world and the modern world. If they use lumber that was cut from a third generation forest with chainsaws and cut into lumber in a modern saw mill, how is that any different than using a septic tank? I'm not trying to stir up anything, but really, where do they draw the line?

[specialed]

103. Depends on costs.

Most of the Amish cultures ban on modernization is related to various means of travel. They will employee whatever means necessary and profitable but when it comes to travel. Its buggy time. (I live in chester county pa we have butt loads of amish).

[Bunny]

105. I don't know for sure how they obtain the raw materials for their buildings.

I doubt very much that it's quite as primitive as you describe. Good question.

I know that, if travelling great distances, they are allowed to ride in automobiles as long as someone "English" drives them. And they're allowed to have a telephone so long as it isn't in their house. It's not uncommon for Amish to have a shed containing a telephone located somewhere on their property.

[greguganus]

109. I'd have to have a computer shed too. n/t

[bperci108]

145. Here's a good place to start.

I've dealt with these folks and they are top-notch.

They cater to a large Amish population in northern Ohio:

http://www.lehmans.com/

A common thread is lack of electricity use of any kind, as far as other things go, it varies by community and order.

Look around Lehman's and you get a good idea of what they use and what they don't.

Who'da thunk you could get a brand new coal or wood burning kitchen stove in 2008. Or a gasoline-engine powered wringer-type washer like Grandma had?

How about a kerosene or propane powered refrigerator? (No, I'm not kidding...)

[crispini]

119. Actually, I think that so-called "modern" versions of human waste disposal have problems too.

Now, the Amish in question may not be correct -- I'm not familiar enough with the methods they're using -- but, properly done, human waste is VERY compost-able and we really need to be looking into treating our shit that way. We waste hundreds of thousands of gallons of potable water a year in order to dispose of human waste with modern systems, and it's a great strain on the environment.

See also:
http://www.jenkinspublishing.com/humanure.html

And, may I add, I think the linking of this in your OP as a "calling out" of the Amish per se is pretty stupid also. I didn't read anything to me in the article that shows that this is anything but a code-compliance problem.

[XemaSab]

130. I'm all for graywater going into the yard

Shit... goes RIGHT to the sewage ponds.

[Undercurrent]

123. Bashing the Amish is way off base, and insulting to me personally.

I happen to be an atheist, but my mother's family was Mennonite. They were what is called hook and eye Mennonites -- they used hooks and eyes to fasten their clothing, as opposed to straight pin Mennonites.

During a time of horrific persecution in Europe, the Mennonites split with the what became the Amish. The Mennonites remain very similar to the Amish in their teaching of pacifism, simple living, community, forgiveness and love.

My mother's family are the most wonderful people you could ever be blessed to know. Plain, solid, salt of the earth, generous, peaceful, loving and forgiving.

Remember when the five Amish school girls were murdered by Charles Roberts? The families of the killed girls, and the community forgave him, and extended their love and support to his wife and family, and set up a charitable fund for them. That was an extraordinary, Gandhi like response, and we could all learn from it.


*typo edit*

[XemaSab]

131. A common thread starts to fray in Quilt Country

BAN PA DEANG, Thailand — Narathi Palua is sewing in the tropical sunshine. His long fingers deftly pull a silver needle through the heavy fabric. He is 13.

Palua could be riding his bike or collecting crabs in the cool waters of the Yom River. Instead, he is making an American quilt likely destined for Lancaster County in Pennsylvania.

In Palua's village of Ban Pa Deang, quilts spill from the open doorways of homes, women drive by on motor scooters clutching rolled-up quilts wrapped in clear plastic, and porches have been converted to outdoor sewing rooms where scraps of fabric litter tiled floors like a calico snowstorm.

Quilting brings prosperity, so everyone sews: gap-toothed grandmothers, smooth-faced boys, young mothers.

http://community.seattletimes.nwsource.com/archive/?date=20060511&slug=thaiquilt11

[crispini]

135. Very, very interesting.

Good read!

[RamboLiberal]

138. The fight is over the size of the tanks beneath their outhouses

On Thursday, the two Amish farmers testified that they had – as was done at the two schoolhouse outhouses – installed 250-gallon concrete tanks beneath each of the privies.

The tanks were built and installed by the Amish themselves, rather than pre-fab ones being used, according to the testimony.

But state regulations generally would require 1,000-gallon tanks, and if they’re under 5,000-gallons in size, must be pre-fabricated, officials said.

In addition, the method of disposal – treatment with lime and dumping on fields – is not acceptable, the agency officials said.

William Barbin, solicitor for the two agencies, said that the case is precedent-setting in the county because “there are dozens of other houses in the Amish communities with the same problems.”

http://www.tribune-democrat.com/local/local_story_318234222.html

This area of PA I know well - it's still fairly rural, more so than the Lancaster area which is of course the "Amish tourist" area of PA. Let the county work out the sanitation laws with them.

Except for the puppy mills which PA has passed much stricter laws against this past year I don't see why some DU'ers here have some hatred for the Amish. Sure, when they violate the law whether it be puppies or sewage, then they need to come in to compliance with the laws of where they live.

The Amish are not the only people guilty of running puppy mills. We need to get people to stop buying from pet shops and the damn mills will be put out of business.

How about our "modern" sewage plants? How many damn times do I read about them putting overflow in to rivers or oceans?

I think the Amish have done far less damage to our lands, air and water than we "English". And it amazes me the intolerance here from some of you.

[AlCzervik]

139. Grab your harmonica it's time for Cholera.

[Skittles]

143. I think the word ULTRACONSERVATIVE is a giveaway

I've known Amish folk in Minnesota and they seemed sanitary to me, and very nice too. Your "Fuck the Amish" comment is way offbase.

[kwassa]

144. The Amish are absolutely non-racist

A friend, who is African-American, spent every summer in Amish country in Pennsylvania on the farm her parents bought. Her parents were both Baltimore school teachers that had each summer off. My friend would spend her entire childhood summers playing with her Amish girlfriends. The local Amish farmers would take care of their horses in the winter. In exchange, my friend's parents maintained a phone line on their property for the Amish carpenter across the road, out in a box by the property line, so he could be called for jobs.