Detroit must die American cars are still uniformly god-awful. Why save them?

[LaPera]

Another interesting column from the excellent Mark Morford...

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/g/a/2008/11/14/notes111408.DTL

"This is what I think whenever I see someone plodding along the freeway or struggling through the city streets in some older and terminally bland or even brand new and yet still terminally bland Malibu or Cobalt or Taurus, Sebring or Nitro or Mustang or Corvette or Neon or hell, almost any car from any American manufacturer whatsoever...

I think: Oh, you poor thing. I think: Do you not have any friends? Did no one tell you? Have you not yet heard of this crazy thing called the Interweb? Did you not even bother to do ten minutes of research and comparison shopping before you purchased that squeaky, ill-built lump of misfit steel and crude design, homework which would've instantly revealed to you what even the most amateur automotive buff knows the instant she becomes a fan of quality engineering and design refinement and, you know, basic drivability?

This is what you would've learned: that American cars are, to this very day, still uniformly awful. Or if they're not awful, they're just passably mediocre. And your money would be oh so much better spent on German or Japanese or even Korean. I'm so sorry about your urine-yellow Chevy Aveo. Here, have my parking space.

You might disagree. You might say, hey wait a minute, not all American cars are as dreadful and ill-equipped as Sarah Palin at a science fair. There are a few exceptions, a few gems among the dirt clods.

Like the new... um, the Ford, uh, what was it again? Right. The Flex (that's not a car, but whatever). And hey, the new Fiesta is supposed to be hot, because they brought it over from Europe -- aka "land of wonderful, efficient, well-designed little cars we almost never see." And wasn't that big pseudo-gangster slab, the Chrysler 300, sort of cool about five years ago? Sure it was.

And you're right. Those cars are exactly that, exceptions. Rarities. Flukes. The truth is, American cars haven't been interesting or exceptional in decades. When it comes to small and efficient, there isn't a single truly desirable American car on the road today. And innovation? Dear God. The last new idea a U.S. manufacturer had was sticking a mini fridge under the seat of the Caravan. Neato.

And now here's the other thing I think when I hear that the bloated American auto industry is on the verge of complete collapse, failure, bankruptcy, that the Big Three -- Ford, GM, Chrysler -- are losing billions hand over tailpipe, and that Obama and Nancy Pelosi are right now considering shoveling many billions into their voracious maws to try and keep them afloat for a while longer, just so they can keep producing crap no one really wants.

I think: Are you kidding me? We have a chance to let this fat, lazy, top-heavy, SUV-glutted industry implode like it so very much deserves, and we might not take it? I think: What an opportunity. We could begin to reinvent the American automobile starting next week, and we might instead keep the old ways alive simply because the Big Three were too stupid and greedy to see past their gross SUV sales figures for the past 25 years? Come on."

(Much more)
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/g/a/2008/11/14/notes111408.DTL

- Reserve judgment, until you finish reading Morford's column, it's right on the money & how I've felt for many years....and for many years why I've only bought Toyota's 4x4's & Camry's, for myself and my family, they run & run and rarely break down, very little maintenance cost....BUT, for unreliability, I choose British cars, my toys, though always great styling, I have my Jag & vintage MG, (Got rid of my classic old Range Rover a few years ago). They rarely run when expected to, but they are fun to look at...Maybe England should bail out their auto industry as well, is there one left, or did American car makers buy up their problems too?

[Phred42]

1. Because it would put millions of people out of work real fast

[spoony]

15. Apparently an acceptable casualty of getting back at evil SUV makers.

I fucking hate threads like this.

[ColbertWatcher]

54. Not only that the manufacturing plants would be taken out of their hands and ...

... into the hands of an unknown entity.

At least now, we know unions have some say at the plants. With the GOP's "mystery fix" there will absolutely be no union involvement whatsoever.

[KakistocracyHater]

87. they are being fired anyway

haven't you read that yet? Besides, we have engineering models & know how to build cars better, we could rapidly turn towards the future & hug that giant chance for innovation. Detroit is like the horse & buggy camp, throwing money mindlessly at them will not help & I don't want to waste our LAST GOOD DOLLARS on a guaranteed failure. & Please DON'T let it be our last good dollars! Invest in bleeding edge technology, cleaner diesel & natural gas for hauling trucks & buses, high-speed rail like in Japan & Europe, electric cars for personal transportation, "plug & play" solar power where it's sunny, etc.

[jerzymom60]

107. What if we put the out of work auto workers to work fixing our infrastructure? nt

xx

[AZ Criminal JD]

108. Yeah, that would go over great with the UAW. LOL

[jerzymom60]

111. Rats. My DH and I

have been screaming at each for a couple of hours...he's all about letting them go down in the name of capitalism. I prefer a softer landing (although he was the one who suggested moving the jobs to infrastructure.) I was just testing his hypothesis. :P

I will lose all credibility if I go back with your response. :( :P

[bread_and_roses]

125. If your DH is arguing in support of capitalism s/he needs more re-education

than can be accomplished with any few posts on an internet board anyway. (btw, what the heck is "DH?" I am ancient and out of touch)

[latebloomer]

130. "Dear Husband" n/t

[Phred42]

120. For our National Survival We NEED to make cars HERE

and have those plants available to make other things should the need arise - remember the late 30's early 40's?

We HAVE to manufacture to survive. Cars and Trucks are a huge part of that.

[Democrats_win]

2. "Save Detroit, Save America." Heros not zeros. That's what America needs.

[Octafish]

64. Thank you, Democrats_win.

U.S. security debate lurks in Big 3 woes

BTW: Wonder what Mofford would do if his paper folded?
Jobs are hard to come by, these days.

[RamboLiberal]

92. I've been wondering about all the RW blowhards who want to let them die

One radio guy mentioned that auto advertising is 30-40% of ad revenue. If the American auto industry is left to die one good laugh I will get is when some of these clowns get put on the unemployment line when their stations fire them or ask them to take a whopping pay cut.

Newpapers are already dying and auto dealers are a hug part of their revenue. There's going to be some newspapers going really bare bone or completely folding if that ad revenue goes away.

[Midlodemocrat]

3. I sure do love my Chrysler van.

[8 track mind]

89. i love my chevy van!

1995 chevy cargo van. totally reliable, parts are cheap, and you can tweak the computer to run e85! :-)

[Tallison]

143. Detroit needs to get with the 'car' program

Vans, trucks, and SUVs are what have kept the city viable the last decade, the sales of which will never recover following the oil spike. Make a good CAR, and I'm all there when my Honda wears out in the next five years.

[HeraldSquare212]

4. If the auto industry collapses it will take all of us down with it.

Writers like the article writer assume we're all idiots and have not thought of the obvious (altho; I do disagree with him a bit about quality of American cars - it's much better). What's fair is fair, but what's fair isn't always what's right or necessary.

[LaPera]

6. That's what they tell us...Like the oil companies, others will take their place as Green

jobs would in the case of Oil jobs.

[HeraldSquare212]

22. If the economy were strong, I'd say, let them fail. But right now, we need to stablize.

[Royal Oak Rog]

31. And the 5 million who lose their jobs

will find new ones tomorrow. You really have no business with that avitar. You sound like David Brooks in this mornings New York Times.

[tammywammy]

51. 1 in 10 jobs are related to the car industry

If the Big 3 go down, so do a whole lotta other people.

[DainBramaged]

99. When in 20 years, get real and get an education

[Captain Hilts]

5. Just not true. I became owner of two Oldsmobiles and they ran great and maintenance-free....

despite being over ten years old.

[EOTE]

69. I also owned two Oldsmobiles.

A 1987 Delta 88 Coupe and a 1995 Aurora. I got over 130K miles on both cars before trading them in and I got a good amount on each trade. They were both rock solid cars.

[FKA MNChimpH8R]

88. Until it got repossessed in 2007

I'd been driving a 2001 Olds Aurora for several years and it was a damn good car. Reasonably sporting in overall performance, decent mileage even with the V8, luxurious and as reliable as an anvil. I've owned German, Japanese and American alike over the years, and the Aurora was my favorite car of all those I've owned. So of course GM discontinued it.

[flvegan]

7. Oooh...hold on...

:popcorn:

Okay, go.

[YOY]

8. I prefer new companies. Same union. Different leadership. No old ties.

Setting them up from the ground up with efficiency and proper engineering by taking only the best of the old and making the new.

It would take time and money, but shit...the big three should have seen this coming.

[amandabeech]

78. A huge part of the Big 3's problems are retiree costs.

The UAW bargained for good retiree benefits, and those cost more than expected.

The new companies don't have retirees and don't have that problem.

In addition, they will probably be like the Japanese companies here in terms of benefits.

In other words, no help for retirees except a 401(k). Not even a group Medigap policy.

If the Big 3 could completely jettison their retirees, they'd have fewer problems.

Really, older companies are going down at least partially due to retiree benefits. The same thing has happened to the airline industry.

It's not just low wages and low prices that make Southwest so profitable--they don't have a lot of retirees to pay for.

[rucky]

141. Are we positive these companies didn't touch the pension fund?

for other reasons?

[SmileyRose]

144. You were lied to.

the US government audited GM and Ford and reported both obeyed federal laws and put plenty of money aside for hourly union worker agreements but put NOTHING aside for Salary retirement benefits and golden parachutes (this is not required by law). However, Ford and GM were reporting how they were hurting over retiree costs and releasing figures that combined both types of retiree costs because Federal accounting laws allowed them to throw it all in together on their financial statements.

They fucking lied - and when the US government released the report to the public all of sudden you heard both companies shut the fuck up over retiree costs and start talking about the burdens of slow sales instead.

You almost never hear either of GM or Ford bitch about retiree costs anymore because they've already had their asses handed to them on that score.

[Throd]

9. You don't know as much about automobiles as you think you do.

But why let that get in the way of an opportunity of anti-American industry snark.

[LaPera]

13. Yes, let's keep spending billions bailing them out for their fuck ups, every so many years!

Fuck health care, the infrastructure and creating better long term jobs those same billions would help and create....better to to go the big 3 CEO' President, the many Vice-presidents and the other high up executives & their private jets & company owned vacation Villa's, don't you think?

[EOTE]

17. Poor business models and poor cars are two completely different things.

No one is denying that GM has had horrific management. That certainly effects their bottom line. It hasn't stopped them from making the most competitive vehicles that they've ever made, though.

[Throd]

28. My comment wasn't about the "Bail out" one way or the other.

Has Detroit made a long series of blunders? Sure.

Did they make some horribly shitty cars in the past? Yes, I have owned a few.

My objection was to the sweeping generalization that all their current product is crap. That simply is not true.

[DainBramaged]

68. You just keep skiing and sailing and ignore the plight of REAL America

[Scout]

97. beat me to it, DainBramaged--great minds think alike ;-) n/t

[DainBramaged]

106. I ALWAYS check the source

:yourock:

[NeMetov]

10. haha

Don't worry!)) Be happy!))

[LisaM]

11. When you see someone driving along in a new Japanese car

do you instantly think, "Oh! I'll be paying the pension of the people who made that car one day!"

My SO drove his grandmother's old Buick when it was 30 years old. There are plenty of American cars that run well. We have a used Honda that we bought from a friend, and there are little things going wrong with it all the time.

Has the writer also considered other easements the Japanese automakers get? They were allowed to flood our market. We don't have similar advantages there. There are allegations that the Japanese government subsidized R&D for the battery used in the Prius. There are also accusations that the Japanese government artificially manipulated the value of the yen to give them a competitive advantage.

I don't think the companies have a level playing field, and I also think there are plenty of good American cars.

[Sal Minella]

43. Buicks have a reputation for still humming along at 250 K -- I know of three and am not a car nut.

[LisaM]

48. As far as I know, it still runs. We gave it away to a guy

who wanted to use it to take on fishing trips.

It was a Skylark, sister car to the Cutlass. I still see lots of Cutlasses on the road too.

I don't see very many 30-year old Hondas, though I did see a really old Datsun B-210 lately.

[Ioo]

44. My Nissan was built in Ohio, by UAW members... US Auto's have no excuse

My Nissan Altima was built in Canton OH, the workers that built are all UAW members...

I am sorry the American Car comps are crap...

[DainBramaged]

70. And so are those who buy Japanese cars, crap back at ya

[amandabeech]

76. Nissan is unionized?

Please provide a cite.

[DainBramaged]

105. More bullshit from the uninformed, they think we,re stupid

If Nissan's were UAW made, I'd be clapping and cheering for them!



http://www.uaw.org/

2009 VEHICLES BUILT BY UNION MEMBERS
IN THE UNITED STATES & CANADA

UAW CARS
Buick Lucerne
Cadillac CTS
Cadillac DTS
Cadillac STS
Cadillac XLR
Chevrolet Cobalt
Chevrolet Corvette
Chevrolet Malibu/Hybrid
Chrysler Sebring Convertible
Chrysler Sebring Sedan
Dodge Avenger
Dodge Caliber
Dodge Viper
Ford Focus
Ford Mustang Ford Taurus
Lincoln MKS
Mazda6
Mercury Sable
Mitsubishi Eclipse
Mitsubishi Eclipse Spyder
Mitsubishi Galant (notice I NEVER hit Mitsubishi, check my posts, because they are UAW MADE!!!!!!!!)
Pontiac G5
Pontiac G6
Pontiac Solstice
Pontiac Vibe
Saturn Aura/Hybrid
Saturn Sky
Toyota Corolla*

UAW PICKUPS
Chevrolet Colorado
Chevrolet Silverado*
Dodge Dakota
Dodge Ram Pickup
Ford F Series* Ford Ranger
GMC Canyon
GMC Sierra*
Mazda B-Series
Toyota Tacoma*

UAW SUVs/CUVs
Buick Enclave
Cadillac Escalade/Hybrid
Cadillac Escalade ESV
Cadillac SRX
Chevrolet Suburban*
Chevrolet Tahoe*/Hybrid
Chevrolet Traverse
Chrysler Aspen/Hybrid
Dodge Durango/Hybrid
Dodge Nitro
Ford Escape/Hybrid
Ford Expedition
Ford Explorer
Ford Explorer Sport Trac
Ford Taurus X
GMC Acadia
GMC Yukon*/Hybrid H2 Hummer
H3 Hummer
Jeep Commander
Jeep Compass
Jeep Grand Cherokee
Jeep Liberty
Jeep Patriot
Jeep Wrangler
Lincoln Navigator
Mazda Tribute/Hybrid
Mercury Mariner/Hybrid
Mercury Mountaineer
Mitsubishi Endeavor
Saturn Outlook

UAW VANS
Chevrolet Express
Dodge Caravan Ford Econoline
GMC Savana

Canadian AW CARS
Buick Lacrosse
Chevrolet Camaro
Chevrolet Impala
Chrysler 300
Dodge Challenger Dodge Charger
Ford Crown Victoria
Lincoln Town Car
Mercury Grand Marquis

CAW SUVs/CUVs
Chevrolet Equinox
Ford Edge
Ford Flex
Lincoln MKT Lincoln MKX
Pontiac Torrent
Suzuki XL7

UAW/CAW PICKUPS
Chevrolet Silverado*/Hybrid GMC Sierra*/Hybrid

UAW/CAW Vans
Chrysler Town & Country
Dodge Caravan Volkswagen Routan

IUE SUVs/CUVs
Chevrolet Trailblazer GMC Envoy

[8 track mind]

91. My Dad

Put over 365k on his 1985 Chevy El Camino. It was the first year for the fuel injected V-6. The only reason he quit driving it was because he hit a deer one morning going to work. It split the radiator and overheated the block. He thought he had it missed, but it turned right into his path at the last second. He changed the oil every 3000 miles, kept it tuned up. the only major thing he did to it was a transmision overhaul at 250k. It allways got good gas milage and it was reliable as a claw hammer.

[Name removed]

12. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[brentspeak]

18. DU likely has anti-union shills plying their trade here

Psy-ops via the internet.

[DainBramaged]

71. I am positive

[EOTE]

14. Funny how those that know the least about cars

are always insisting how valid their opinions are. How incredibly foolish it is to criticize the quality of American cars now at the time in history when domestic vehicles stack up the best against their foreign competition. GM, Ford and Mopar match the quality of their Japanese competitors in their segment and typically do it at a lower price as of now. And for many years GM light and heavy duty trucks have been wiping the floor with the foreign competition. Not only in terms of reliability, but in terms of utility too (did I mention fuel economy?). And they've been doing it using those "low-tech" overhead valve engines, too.

[LaPera]

23. And that's why they are doing so well.

They don't need the tens of billions of our tax dollars to bail them out, now do they?

[EOTE]

29. Do you not understand how poor management can ruin a company?

It really appears that you don't. Picture this for a moment. Could you imagine how selling a car under cost could put a company in the red? Could you also imagine how that car could provide superior value?

[TahitiNut]

52. Yup.

Few appreciate how the 'adversarial model' of management which is the common paradigm in the U.S. makes us non-competitive with cultures in which the lessons of Baldridge and Drucker were actually taken to heart. That adversarial model is why anti-cannibalism tactics (long-term pension vesting, non-transportable health insurance, etc.) are used even though they increase UMC over that of 'socialized' economies. And that's just the start.

Not only does the 'management class' (owner's agents as direct descendants of Simon Legree) adopt the adversarial paradigm vis a vis labor, they adopt it vis a vis their customers and society in general. Tortious behavior, stock fraud, golden parachutes, poison pills, egregious pillage, and attitudes that embrace bankruptcy (or M&A) for personal enrichment and labor disenfranchisement all abound on executive row.

And I speak as a former manager (and management auditor and management consultant) with many years in the "belly of the beast."

The 'win-lose' presumption that it's a zero-sum game is, at the core, the fundamental failing of our culture.

[EOTE]

53. That went completely over my head.

But it sounds like you know what you're talking about. If you're trying to suggest that management is fucked up, I would totally agree.

[last_texas_dem]

41. The quality of something doesn't necessarily indicate how well it's going to do in the market

For one thing, the American car companies have, for the last couple of decades, been having to work against the idea that developed in the eighties, among many, that all American cars are pieces of shit. Even if American cars have improved greatly in quality since that time, the average American's ideas regarding their quality may not have changed.

[snooper2]

65. Bullshit...GM and Ford are doing a "little" better...

Chrysler is fucked up...and their cars are getting worse...

Oh, and my dad retired from Chrysler 8 years ago after working there for 36 years, so I know a little something about their cars along with all others.

GM and Ford need to continue adding quality to vehicles, eliminate dupe models across lines and improve items like road noise, fit-finish- etc.,

Chrysler needs to go back to the early 90's

Bring back the Daytona Turbo with the 2.2L 4 banger with todays technology. Offer the Shadow again as an entry line commuter car...etc.,

I am about ready to take a 2008 Chrysler 300 back to Enterprise in about an hour so I can fly back to Texas. Have had the thing all week, what a fucking piece of shit. The passenger side mirror vibrates worse than the ones on my motorcycle. The drivers side is fine. Some fucking idiot put the cruise control on a lever above the turn signal. So you have two levers on the left side of the steering column that are at 8:00 and 10:00- stupid... The transmission did a hard CLUNK twice pulling away from a toll booth from a standing stop. They need to outsource their transmissions...Oh, and it appears impossible to set the clock on the dash ( I know there is a way but probably would have to read the manual- not intuitive ) Oh, and the headlights won't go off when you lock/alarm the car- which they are supposed to. Been doing that manually all week. :)

16,500 miles by the way- CHRYSLER 300 = BIGGEST POS ON MARKET

The seats are nice though...

[EOTE]

96. Sorry, a Daytona was never meant to be that FWD piece of crap.

And the 300/Magnum/Charger is by and large the previous generation E-Class Mercedes. They also start at half the price of that particular E-Class, so all NVH numbers for the vehicle are superior to just about anything in their class. Chrysler's vehicles have gotten much better since the Daimler merger, it's their business practices that have suffered. All makes should work on adding quality to their vehicles, that's a no brainer. However, GM and Ford are very competitive quality wise in their segments. Currently matching the Japanese for a cheaper cost. The Cobalt and the current-gen Focus may not have an interior to match the current Civic, but I think they're both better than the current Corolla interior and they both offer models that get 1 mpg better than either car for a much smaller price. The Camry has been boring for a long time and the Accord is getting heavier and less interesting. I'd much rather have a new Malibu comparatively equipped than either, and it would be cheaper too. Domestics now offer competitive vehicles in every class. Sorry you got a lemon with your 300, but that's not indicative of the domestic market by a long shot.

[DJ13]

16. Mark Morford is an idiot who cant understand that letting the Big3 go under

.....will trigger a new depression.

[Auggie]

67. Usually Mark writes smart stuff. Not today.

[Bozita]

19. Your pro-union avatar is misleading at best.

[suston96]

20. We have a 2004 Pontiac Vibe. Great car....but looking at a 2009 Ford Flex...

Square is in........

http://www.edmunds.com/apps/vdpcontainers/do/MediaNav/make=ford/model=flex/year=2009/photoId=20219143/firstNav=Gallery

Oh, anybody know? Is it American made?

[sam sarrha]

21. i say before 1 penny make all the executives, ceo's, boards of directors resign with no benefits,

purge and restructure with knowledgeable progressive thinkers or nationalize..take them over and kick them out, start over

[harun]

24. I think Ford makes a bunch of awesome vehicles now.

New Mustang is great. The Ford Fiesta diesel is fantastic, although we can't buy it in America. I think given some time there is still hope for Ford.

How GM or Chrysler sell even one car is beyond me.

[ColoradoMagician]

25. "I have my Jag & vintage MG"

Nice how the OP and the author want other Americans to lose work, and their way of life.

Sounds typically republican to me: Don't try to alter anything, like having the industry create new products that are needed. Instead we should just destroy it. How bush-like.

[EOTE]

32. When Brits break down, it's 'charming'. When a domestic does it...

it's proof of the demise of the big 3. How sad.

[TlalocW]

26. I don't know what the right thing to do is regarding the bailout

But I agree with the author when it comes to American cars. The higher-ups at the big 3 have tried to dictate to us what we want or should want in a car instead of giving us what we want and need. Even now, I hear commercials for American cars where they're touting the great 32 mpg they get (so important to have something so "high" in these tough times). My 1994 Nissan Sentra got better than that back in the day and still gets in the upper 20s (low 30s if I drive with the wind), and I have driven the crap out of that thing and am not a good caretaker of vehicles. In the 14 years I've owned it, other than basic maintenance - oil changes, filters, batteries - the only thing I've had to replace has been the starter (3 times) and had one bad oil leak taken care of. It's cost me less than $1500.00 on repair work in a decade and a half. It looks like a piece of crap now, and I'll probably be replacing it next year, probably with a Honda Fit if I can't afford a good hybrid.

TlalocW

[gollygee]

27. My Taurus was a great car

what does he have against Tauruses? It ran great, got pretty good mileage, and didn't really cause me trouble until it got so old that any car would.

But I'll admit I have a Toyota now.

Still, he's way way too harsh about American cars. I've had a few Fords that have ran great - the first car I bought myself was an Escort that ran amazingly well until it was hit by an uninsured driver. Then I had a Tempo that I bought old and used and that ran great for a good time until I needed a car with 4 doors, and then we sold it to someone who is still driving it around without trouble.

A car's primary purpose is to get you from point A to point B. Not to be a fashion statement.

[alarimer]

30. The bailout should require a mandatory increase in CAFE standards.

And a certain percentage of hybrid/elecrtric clean technology cars. Raise the CAFE to 30 mpg or so; that will get rid of those gigantic SUV's. They started selling fewer cars because people want more fuel-efficient vehicles in the days of $4 gasoline. American car companies have failed time and again to change with the times. IF we bail them out, there must be conditions on what they can build.

[DU GrovelBot]

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[AndrewP]

34. I have to admit, I just don't know enough about the auto industry....

to have a really intelligent opinion on this. That is always hard for me to admit, but it's true. I'm not a car buff either, so the quality discussion goes right over my head. My Chevy Corsica is 14 years old and barely has had any problems, so I guess I'm fortunate.

On the surface, it makes me nervous to see a major employer collapse because "The big wigs deserve it". It never seems like CEO's pay a real price. Instead, the workers pay the price.

Is this the right opinion? I don't know. I do know that if Obama is pushing for it, I do tend to trust his opinion.

[SharonAnn]

36. I've had GM cars nearly all my driving life. Except one in the 70's, theyve been great.

And on that one there was a recall and they footed the entire bill.

With the one exception, and even then I was satisfied that they dealt with it, they've been low maintenance cars and I've driven them beyond 100,000 miles. The quality is really excellent.

And I don't work for or have any association with the American auto industry. I'm just a very satisfied customer.

I've had Chevys, Pontiacs, Buicks. I've had convertibles, sedans, sports touring sedans, and minivans. All have been good.

Plus, I'm Michell Obama's height and GM cars have been comfortable for me to drive and to ride in.

[sinkingfeeling]

35. Sorry, I love my 1999 Satrun to death! It's the best car I've ever owned.

[guitar man]

37. I don't know

I have a '95 Lincoln Mark VIII with 206k miles and it still runs like a champ, has never left me sitting in the 5 years I've owned it. And my little '03 Dodge truck hasn't given me any cause to complain so far either. :thumbsup:

[boomerbust]

38. Let Detroit Fail

And head to the nearest soup kitchen. It's funny how some people are willing to sit back and watch other people's livelyhood disappear. I'm sure this guy was a huge cheerleader for the Wall Street bailout.

[Pithlet]

60. Not to mention it's pretty damn shortsighted.

Do they think it will have no effect on them? Few of us will be immune to such drastic effects on our economy. I don't get it. Oh, those awful American cars that no one but dorky uncool people want. Who cares, let them go under. That seems to be the gist of the article. How incredibly stupid!

[Upfront]

39. It would give me great pleasure

to knock you on your stupid ass. Can that opportunity be arranged? I don't belong to the UAW. Just a weak ass Liberal here.

[doc03]

40. News flash! If they go bankrupt that doesn't mean they

won't still make cars. We had dozens of steel companies go bankrupt and we still make steel, just got rid of the inefficient companies. Another thing when the steel industry was in dire straights a few years ago the auto industry lead the charge in preventing us from getting any relief. We lost 100s of thousands of jobs, pensions and health insurance. Did GM or the UAW care well hell no!

[LaPera]

56. You make far too much sense.....for some of these "knuckle-draggers" - Fucking unbelievable!

Duh, give them da money....just give them da money....Duh, you can have it, I want my taxes to go to you GM & Ford, (what else is there to do with it). - But please don't fuck us over, again, please....No foresight...They remind me of Limbaugh listeners....Guess they own American cars, oops, ego alert, people get very sensitive about their cars, even if the car is a pile of shit.

Yes, you're correct, if they go bankrupt it certainly doesn't mean they go out of business, or must stop making cars, but will they be ready for a green economy, better green autos, there's plenty of competition and if slack needs to be picked up and there is a demand....that's what Americans are great at....but some here with complete lack of imagination, have this strange programed mentality & fear, that it must be done the old way....give them the money please, save them....they are too big to fail!
As republicans; never seen a monopoly they didn't like, cuz tax payers will bail them out for their stealing, greed, stupid decisions and lack of foresight!

Get rid of the fat and start making efficient, non polluting, stylish, inexpensive autos....Too much of a concept for the ignorant....they just want to give them da money, throw tens of billions of our tax dollars to the auto companies and the hundreds of their rich executives to steal more money and make more stupid mistakes, so the tax payers could bail them out again in 20 years.....

Make better cars it that too much to ask? "YES it is....sorry, it just can't be done...we need the workers tax money to make it work, now and in the future, or else"!!

[DainBramaged]

135. They make BETTER cars, and you have a Union icon?

disgusting.

[amandabeech]

80. Those steel companies are not making nearly as much steel here

as they used to.

What the bankruptcies did was enable them to jettison retiree benefits and reduce pay scales to below what the unions would have given them.

They also got to rewrite their supplier contracts and dump their unsecured debt.

Additionally, the costs to the community and the country were socialized, while the profits were all privatized.

[doc03]

84. Exactly, and who fought tooth and nail against any

assistance to the steel industry the American auto industry. So now after we lost our pensions, retiree health benefits and 100s of thousands of jobs, they want us to pay them to keep running an ineffcient bloated industry.

[shaniqua6392]

42. My whole family loves American cars.

We have never bought anything else and never will. As a matter of fact, I do not know anyone personally who drives a foreign car. We love our cars. We love our UAW made cars!! The car companies will be saved and they will come back better than ever. How can someone not want to LEND the auto companies money after we just GAVE the banks $700 billion dollars?? Also, if we get into a war that would require the auto plants to get retooled to manufacture Humvees and/or other military products, do you think the Toyota plant located in the U.S. is going to do it? We need to get back to manufacturing our own products or we will be in a dire situation regarding national security. Independence is always better than dependence.

[Ioo]

45. Odd - Most Hondas, Nissans, and Toyotas are built now in US, not going out of biz

Sorry folks, this is right on the money. All the Japanese car companies are building most of the cars they sell here in the US. KY, OH, AL, TN all have Japanese car makers there. They are using UAW Union members... they are not doing great, but they are also not asking for billions

[DainBramaged]

72. DO you know they WON'T let us build OUR plants THERE

WE got FUCKED, they closed the door and we EXPORT to Japan and Korea LESS THAN 100,000 cars a year.

Get real, get a clue.

[amandabeech]

81. Please provide a cite backing up your assertion that the Japanese plants are UAW.

Thank you.

They also have no legacy costs, and are just creating new brownfields out of forests and farm land, not to even mention even more sprawl.

If they built their new plants on brownfields left over from de-industrialization in the middle of already existing urban areas and provided medigap plans to their retirees, I'd have a little more sympathy for them.

Remember, in today's world, business costs are often socialized in one way or another, but the profits are privatized.

[amandabeech]

83. Please get a new avatar! n/t

[Sinistrous]

46. Morford's rap on Detroit cars is bullshit.

I have owned cars from each of the big 3, and they have been reliable and comfortable. I have run them all to well over 100K miles and had minimal repairs. My 91 Olds Cutlass has over 270K miles and has never had the head pulled. It still gets 30+ mpg highway.

I am royally sick of the elitist twits that say Japanese wheels are the only way.

(But I do love my New Beetle.)

[Codeine]

47. What's three million jobs, right?

Fucking idiotic excuse for a progressive needs his ass beat to a pulp.

[Truth Teller]

49. Morford is pulling stuff out of his ass

The quality gap is pretty much gone. Used to be one, but those claiming it's still around are ill-informed or have an axe to grind.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

50. The irony is that the bailout won't "save" them.

There's simply no market for them and they can't compete globally.

At best, it's just deferring the inevitable.

[DainBramaged]

74. Bullshit, all you ever wanted was to see chaos for the American worker

I got you pegged pal.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

79. So, tell me where I'm wrong.

Rather than (unsuccessfully) "pegging" me.

[spoony]

85. Well for one thing you're wrong about their global status

It's here at home where they're suffering the most, in Europe US automakers are competing and in most cases proving profitable. I believe this is the fifth straight year Ford is in the black in Europe.

[DainBramaged]

100. Your ignorance never ceases to amaze me

you know NOTHING about MY industry, and your only purpose is to throw shit at anyone here who supports AMERICAN labor. I guess you feel safe here but god forbid you venture into the Labor forum where you'd get stood on your ear.

[knitter4democracy]

55. He can kiss my Michigander Ford-driving ass.

I love my Ford Freestyle (now the Taurus X), and most moms I know are jealous of my car. I paid the same they did for their Toyotas or whatever, and mine handles better, has a better tranny, and is much, much nicer inside with more room (and yes, I did look it up on the interwebs with Car Talk and Car and Driver, doofus). My husband loves his old Taurus and would only replace it by getting another. I've driven my in-laws' Toyotas, and they were crap in comparison, and I haven't missed my old Subaru Outback for one second.

[JNelson6563]

57. Where to start?

First of all my experience with American cars has been much different. I am from Michigan so of course I take issue with the whole "fuck 'em" attitude. Yeah, even here on DU...no sympathy for the myriad of workers losing their jobs and the families who lose homes and everything due to this. Screw the local businesses who were supported by the incomes of these families. Fuck 'em, fuck 'em all.

Oh, btw, we damn well see MI in the blue column. Yeah, we need the electoral votes but fuck 'em.

Sure sounds kinda like how the GOP treats their base.

Stay classy you heartless bastards. Go enjoy your toys from Britain and where-ever else the unaffected shop, the homeless hungry families in Michigan will take comfort in your happiness.

Julie--who every once in a while gets the urge to vomit when reading DU

[GreenTea]

58. Funny stuff.

[kwassa]

59. My Chevy Malibu Maxx is a great car

Does more of what we need better than any vehicle on the road.

[maxsolomon]

61. As a designer, Detroit fails at DESIGN.

they have one current look: steroids - bulbous &/or macho, like PT cruisers, HHRs, chargers, mustangs. ugh. what GM has done to design at Saab is a crime. if it's not some giant rolling cock, it's boring like a taurus or saturns - a weak watering down of hyundai's weak watering down of toyota's watering down of BMW.

i drive a 91 saab 900 because i can't stand the look of any new cars i can afford. and new cars don't get any appreciably better mileage.

[blue_onyx]

82. I disagree about the lack of design

I think many US cars are better designed that foreign vehicles. For example, the mid-size GM cars (Malibu and Aura) are so much better looking than the Accord or Camry (the two most boring cars ever). I particularly like the design of the Saturn brand. Although I will side with you when it comes to the PT Cruiser and HHR...I really don't like those designs.

[fascisthunter]

101. I Agree...

[JerseygirlCT]

104. Have to agree with you there. Those things are just UGLY

I called our old PT Cruiser the PT Loser. First, such an incredibly UGLY car. (The husband found it "cute"). I found it unforgiveably homely.

Second, and more importantly, though, it was a piece of crap car. Constantly breaking. Too heavy to move around well. Getting that thing up the driveway in snow? Forget it. But did that weight give it the traction to get through said snow? Nope, slip sliding away...

Hated that thing.

We're both driving VWs now and happy. Though I miss my Subaru. In snow, especially.

[kwassa]

110. That Saab is truly ugly and guess what? GM owns Saab.

Cars are a lot like people in that some are beautiful, some are ugly, and most fall somewhere in between.

Also, beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

Throughout GM some cars are very attractive, some not, many in between. Throughout Mercedes, the same thing.

Some BMWs are godawful ugly, though they are great cars.

I could go on and on.

It is tough to get uglier than a Prius, though. Looks are not necessarily the most important quality in a car. Like people.

[DainBramaged]

119. It's called aerodynamics and the using the best materials for crash worthiness

unless you ARE DESIGNING SHOES, YOU SHOULD UNDERSTAND THAT, BUT BLAME THE DESIGNERS FIRST, AND THEN PISS ON gm. Tool, your picture is next to the description in the dictionary. I'd like to see who would survive in a 60 mph head on crash, you and your glass slipper Saab or a new Sabb which you despise.

[buzzycrumbhunger]

62. Huh?

1. The OP's link is now a 404, so we'll never know how it ends.
2. Always loved my Chryslers and Buicks (my PT Cruiser is like a Beetle you can actually fit a family in!), but if I never see another Ford, I'll die happy. Bailed on a Windstar after every frickin' window motor died and the repair guys just laughed because, "It's a Ford--that's how they're designed"--right before they quoted me a parts cost of $150 apiece. Of course, the A/C also failed and we couldn't rehydrate ourselves because we couldn't even go through a drive-through. Typical of all my Ford experiences and I think speaks well as to why imports have been embraced. Why pay more for American-made cars when they're built like crap and don't offer the features we want? Why do I buy Apple even though it's more expensive? Because they make a fucking awesome product that lasts (every one of my old Macs still works). US automakers need to figure out how to woo us back--and without quality, the rest won't matter. This country needs to stand for something besides profit for a change.
3. Neil Young (of all people) claims to have a cure for the auto industry. Some interesting ideas, actually.

[madmom]

63. Well we let the "fat,lazy, top heavy" government implode.

[Name removed]

66. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Lumpsum]

73. A person who apparently promotes unions is also promoting the loss of 6 million American jobs?

You can't write comedy that rich.

[SammyWinstonJack]

75. While I drive my 10 yr old Pontiac Grand Prix with 120k miles on it and with no money

spent save for oil changes and a driver's side window motor that had to be replaced 6 mos ago. But nice broad brush. :eyes:

[Kalyke]

77. Because people who say American cars are God-awful haven't

driven one since 1987, when they were.

Me? I think foreign cars are the ugliest, least-personable pieces of crap on the road.

You couldn't pay me to own a Toyota or a Nissan.

[TommyO]

123. My 1987 Thunderbird Turbo Coupe

was the best car that I've ever had.

[RedCappedBandit]

131. And yet, toyota and nissan aren't the ones in trouble

:shrug:

If they're so great, why the hell can't they sell their cars?

[Contrary1]

86. It won't be just the auto makers in Detroit biting the big one...

Lots of independent contractors will lose their jobs too. My husband's job as a system's analyst is contracted out to Allison's division of GM. In his office alone, there are 20+ employees.

Multiply that by the different parts manufacturing and assembly plants operated by the big three in this country and others. There are tens of thousands of non-auto workers who will be affected.

Then you have the various maintenance workers, printing companies, sign-makers, new and used car dealers, loan writers...the list goes on and on.

It's all trickle down.

[nickgutierrez]

90. As Hillary Clinton put it: "jobs, baby, jobs".

Obviously, Detroit needs to start making cars that people want to buy again. Ditch the management, put people in place that actually have an idea or two. Once that happens, though, there's no reason that the auto industry can't be every bit of the job creator that it used to be.

[peanut2010]

93. I would rather drive my old Mustang

than anything made in Japan,Korea or China.I have driven and worked on all kinds of Toyotas,Nissans,Hyundais,Kias and Hondas THEY AIN`T THAT SPECIAL

[peanut2010]

94. I would rather drive my old Mustang

than anything made in Japan,Korea or China.I have driven and worked on all kinds of Toyotas,Nissans,Hyundais,Kias and Hondas THEY AIN`T THAT SPECIAL

[backwoodsbob]

95. I can't believe people who claim to be progressive

are cheering the thought of the loss of millions of jobs...many good paying union jobs.

What the hell is wrong with some of you?

Is it worth seeing the country go into a depression to *get* a few execs?

[DainBramaged]

98. They are stupid, petty, and completely removed from real life

and so so many of them, who took the Hummer personally, think this is their reward. They are shallow and ignorant. Changing the chairman of a corporation is NOT going to make a radical difference, and they think the money he gets will make a financial difference in the operation of a GIANT company.

These are people with the foresight of a bat and the hindsight of an ass.

[salguine]

102. "BUT, for unreliability, I choose British cars..." Ha! There's an old joke that says:

"Why have the British never designed and marketed their own home computer?" "Because they couldn't figure out how to get one to belch smoke and leak oil."

Pity, really—these are the same people who designed the Supermarine Spitfire...

[Fumesucker]

113. Why do the British drink warm beer?

Lucas also makes refrigerators..

Lucas, Prince of Darkness.. That's what we used to call them back in the day.

[IDemo]

115. gotta be fast on the Enter key around here..

I got stranded by a Triumph Bonneville 750 (motorcycle) 30 years ago on a test ride, thanks to Lucas. Nice bike, otherwise. :)

[IDemo]

114. or - why do the British drink warm beer?

answer - because they have Lucas refrigeration.

more on Lucas, "The Prince of Darkness" -> http://www.mez.co.uk/lucas.html

[Touchdown]

116. Bumper Sticker found on a TR6

The Parts Falling Off Of This Car Are Of The Finest British Quality.:rofl:

[Fumesucker]

117. Come to think of it.. My first computer was designed by a Brit..

Sir Clive Sinclair to be specific.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clive_Sinclair

[moondust]

103. Throw out the baby with the bathwater?

Why not just replace the myopic management and retool for the future? Universal health care would take care of the enormous medical costs to employees and retirees. Set aside the historical deep antagonisms between "management" and "labor" and find some reasonable compromises. Don't let management drift away on golden parachutes and obscene salary packages rendering them detached from the success or failure of the company. This could be a great opportunity for a major U.S. industry to shed the unconscionable greed of the past and get everybody on the same page working toward a common goal.

[swishyfeet]

109. Cars from Detroit ARE uniformly awful, but now's not the time

People who love cars (anyone who praises their Chrysler minivan need not apply) know that Detroit is dreadfully out of step, but the last thing we need is to throw out a million nice manufacturing jobs.

I would love to buy American, but refuse to until such time as they build something I'd want. The Swishy family's got an Audi A3 and Subaru Outback in the garage right now. One, a sporty, good looking small car with a fuel-efficient turbo, a fancy dual-clutch gearbox, and a wonderful interior; the other is the official car of the Pacific Northwest as far as I can tell.

There is NOTHING from Detroit I would be willing to replace them with.

A fast car from Detroit comes with a Hemi, or some pushrod v8 stuffed into some 60's nostalgia - or is a Dodge Neon-like piece of crap with highstrung buzzy 4 banger.

All-wheel drive from Detroit requires solid axles and about run about 5,000 pounds and up.

[kwassa]

112. Saying that all cars from Detroit are awful is broad-brush stupidity

It is illogical, considering the huge variety of cars and trucks the Big 3 make.

I researched heavily when I bought my Malibu Maxx. I was looking for a wagon in 2004, and there were not many in the market, and I test drove and compared against Subaru Outback, and VW Passat. There were uneven quality problems with both Subaru and VW. The Maxx outperformed them, with a 6 cyl 200 horse engine, had a beautiful leather interior, bells and whistles galore, and came loaded for way less than the other two. Plus, the Maxx gets better than 30 mpg on the freeway. Subaru gets lousy mileage for a car that small, less than the bigger Maxx.

My Maxx was destroyed in a total loss accident, not my fault, but it saved me from any injury. I liked the car so much I went out and bought another one.

[DainBramaged]

118. You have no clue, none. A Cobalt SS will bang your Audi into the weeds

and it's a little turbo 4 cylinder that gets 30 MPG for under $25,000. So many of you speak without an iota of knowledge of MY industry it isn't funny. Your assumption make a complete ass of YOU.

[swishyfeet]

121. LOL.

What part of "Dodge Neon-like piece of crap with highstrung buzzy 4 banger." do you not understand? I guarantee you the interior is crap, and big wheels, an air dam, and an SS badge don't change the fact that it's a Cobalt; bland and uninspired as ever.

It's a new Dodge Neon. Surprisingly quick, yes, but nobody over age 30 would want one.

Working in the industry doesn't mean you know shit about cars, in fact it probably means you've not driven anything outside of Detroit in years. You're missing out!

[DainBramaged]

124. I get to drive EVERYTHING short of Bentleys and Lamborghinis

You have NO idea who I am or what I do have done or who I know. Your Audi is a glorified Volkswagen, and they've been chasing Mercedes for decades without success, and your Subaru is one of the worst reliable cars in the world.


I've driven more makes and models of cars this year than you will in a lifetime, and the WONDERFUL S550 4-ma tic (even though I would only own American Iron) I got to enjoy this week makes your little can of schnitzel pathetic.

The Cobalt would eat you alive, and it isn't a buzzy can opener fool.

We're done talking. YOU contribute to the undermining of the American worker, I don't like you.

[swishyfeet]

129. Good for you.

Yes, my Audi is a glorified 4.9Bn Q3 profit - er, I mean Volkswagen.

Your crazy ranting isn't exactly winning me over, and attacking MY cars is beyond insane. I would LOVE LOVE LOVE to by American, but not until they make something that fits my desires and needs.

If GM made shit that Americans wanted, they wouldn't be asking for a bailout. It's not rocket science, it's the same damn thing that everyone else is saying. Go on, keep attacking the messenger. Better yet, get back to work and make a fucking car that the world wants.

BTW, Consumer reports predicted reliability 2009:
Subaru #7 - Outback best model
Chevrolet #24

Liar.

[Name removed]

133. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[JVS]

127. The MSRP of the two cars is $23,425 vs $26,920. I don't think the $3,500 difference is a hosing...

for the audi customer.

[JVS]

126. Those dodge caravans were the BOMB before they started making only the grand caravan

$16K plenty of room in the back. It was like a camper for the most modest of budgets!

[Politicalboi]

122. I think Hemp will save

The auto industry. It can be made into fuel. I'm sure they could redesign them to run on Hemp fuel. They don't have many choices these days. Just an alternative fuel would be a great start. I would like to see Air Cars eventually but for now Hemp is a good resource for many things. It's the fuel baby fuel.

[GliderGuider]

128. "Big Banks? Let 'em die! Big Oil? Let 'em die! Big Auto?"

"You can have my car when you pry it from my cold, dead fingers! Oh yeah, and by the way, jobs, jobs, jobs."

You realize that it was the car culture that fucked your country with urban blight, right? And all that CO2 in the atmosphere? And you've heard about Peak Oil? You know the personal car culture is just about finished, right? But rather than making any plans to shift directions, all anyone can talk about is not putting the guys who make Big Stone Heads out of work.



On edit: This post isn't directed at the OP -- it's aimed at much of the rest of this thread.

[RedCappedBandit]

132. Good post. Wish I could rec a response. nt

[DainBramaged]

134. I have something directed at your post, and it isn't stone

[GliderGuider]

142. In the larger scheme of things the global auto industry industry is toast.

That includes the Big 3 along with the Japanese, the Koreans, the Germans, the French, the Italians, the Swedes and the Indians.

Within 20 years the USA is likely to be running on a third of the oil you use today, due to a phenomenon related to Peak Oil called the net oil export problem. The face of your society will have changed as a result, and the one thing it will have moved away from very decisively is the personal automobile. In addition, for a number of reasons I expect the world to enter an essentially unrecoverable depression within two or three years (for my reasoning on that conclusion read this post).

That pair of factors make it enormously urgent to start thinking outside the box when it comes to jobs, manufacturing and the social organization that has sprung up around the automobile. I know you're enormously attached to the auto industry, and I understand how difficult it is to think that an industry that created the nation you love may have become part of the problem. I also know that letting the Big 3 fail would be catastrophic for the US in a way that even bank failures are not.

However, letting the companies simply continue in their current form with taxpayer support isn't a solution. Consumers just aren't buying cars right now, and there is a distinct possibility that auto sales will never recover. If that happens, and the industry doesn't reinvent itself into something besides huge car companies with huge finance arms, and all the auto workers stay employed, the auto companies could end up running at a taxpayer-subsidized loss in perpetuity. That would be an intolerable situation for the economy as well, though it would take somewhat longer to manifest.

IMO the auto industry needs time, money and political willpower to restructure itself from top to bottom and change direction completely, because it's headed for a cliff. The problem is that all three of those commodities are in very short supply. We're heading into a depression as we speak, so time and money are draining away. Regarding political will, the industry (company and unions together) is powerful enough that it can influence the course of political events in its own interest, even if that results in a beggar-thy-neigbour position with regard to the rest of the economy.

The best solution I see is for the US government to take a major controlling interest in the companies. It could then use the leverage of ownership to force a change in direction that will be merely painful rather than catastrophic. It's obviously a socialist move, but that door has already been opened with the banks.

This is the situation as I see it. Unless you can present something besides short-sighted bluster and verbal intimidation to counter it, I'll stand by it.

[DainBramaged]

147. Peak oil, peak pets, peak cabbage, I've had two brain tumors

you might as well be speaking Armenian to me. Jimmy Carter told us about peak oil 40 years ago. Are we there yet, or in another 40 years when production shifts to alternatives, will you be preaching peak oil still??


Short-sighted bluster? Kiss my wrinkled old UAW ass.

[GliderGuider]

148. Yes we're there

Peak oil, climate tipping points, dying oceans and a depression -- all here, around you right now.

[GrizzlyMan]

136. I used to think American cars where shit boxes

But lately, I've revisited that stance. Frankly, both Ford and GM have turned out some nice looking cars in recent years. Still, near as I can tell, one of the many problems with the US auto industry is the cradle to grave security the unions have successfully fought for over the years for their members.

I'm not saying that's wrong, because we all know corporate america will fuck the worker over at their first opportunity so I have a lot of respect for what the UAW does. But it would seem as profit falls everyone is going to have to take the hit. I think it might be time for all side to recalibrate their expectations.

I don't know that I will ever buy an American car because of past bad experiences with cars made in the 80s, but I am watching Ford and GM stock very closely and am trying to decide which one (if either) can survive. It's a low risk venture at $2-6 a share for Ford and GM.

[JCMach1]

138. Univeral Health Care would go along way to solve these problems.

[DainBramaged]

139. You cannot blame or expect the same quality today you perceived in the 80's

long time hatred and prejudice of the American is one of the main reasons the industry suffers, if you had given them a chance instead of buying that import, we wouldn't have this problem, but no, GM bad because my daddy's car broke in 1983.

Jesus

[TommyO]

146. How bloody predictable, blaming the unions not the management that created the mess

[JCMach1]

137. There are MANY good American Cars

IF you want to know the meaning of POS try one of the OP's Range Rovers, JAG, MG, or Land Rover!

And let me know how you enjoy the repair bills... this does ditto for BMW and the god-awful Mercdedes...

Why doesn't anyone say WHY CAN'T THE GERMANS MAKE GOOD CARS ANY MORE? and What about the British? French?

I can tell you the Peugeot I had four years back was on its last legs the second it left the showroom. A belt broke the second day I owned it!

This article is complete CAR SNOBBERY ...

There is little difference between a Corolla you buy today and something like a Ford Mondeo or many other Detroit models.

The Corolla or Camry of 7-10 years ago and older... that's another story.

[ProfessorGAC]

140. Awful Or Mediocre, According To Whom?

I read the column. I don't accept the judgment as to what constitutes awful or mediocre, or your's on what is stylish or not.

And, the owner satisfaction surveys don't support such a term as "uniformly".
The Professor

[Bunny]

145. Morford can go fuck himself.

He's an assnozzle. I don't even know what an assnozzle is, but I like the sound of the word.