Who is responsible for the horrible state of our nation's schools?

[arcadian]

At the local level.

[skooooo]

1. To add something...

I picked students and parents. But I also think that standards for teaching need to be made a little tougher. Unfortunately, there are people graduating college with teaching degrees that lack basic knowledge that high school graduate 40 years ago had.

[RedCappedBandit]

2. Parents and students might as well be a vote for parents. nt

[TomInTib]

3. Wouldn't "NCLB" be a valid reason?

No Child Left Behind

[arcadian]

10. That's why I said, "At the local level"

Obviously, the Feds and funding play a huge role.

[TomInTib]

21. Maybe if I had ever gone to school....

I would have seen that.

Duh.....

[XemaSab]

20. Been to Oakland lately?

The schools have sucked for DECADES.

[TomInTib]

24. No, but I have been to...

the Town School Store in SF.

Did your daughter ever get there? (or am I making an identity mistake?)

I bought a never-worn pair of Kenneth Cole shoes for $20, last Monday.

[XemaSab]

27. I think you're making an identity mistake

but I went to the Oakland publics schools back in the 80's and 90's (well before NCLB) and they SUCKED.

[TomInTib]

31. Sorry. But I have a big...

advantage.

I never attended school. Not one single day.

Tom

[SharonAnn]

25. Republican policies, especially since Reagan. But even before that.

Cut taxes, cut funding for schools.

[GreenPartyVoter]

39. Yes, NCLB and lack of funding, plus low standards all really have sunk us.

[Tigress DEM]

85. We used to have free college tuition at Community CCs in California

Until Reagan and his buddy Howard Jarvis, I think.

They started hacking away funding for the arts and just kept going.

[Madam Mossfern]

87. We had a free city college program in NYC

Im talking about four year college. It was very difficult to get into these schools, but a degree from there was worth gold. Then in the 70's at one point they decided to institute open enrollment. The quality of education in these schools took a dive, having to institute remedial classes. Instead of admitting the cream of the crop from NYC public schools, it became first come, first serve and was the demise of that system.

Again, our high schools at that time offered three courses of study, academic (college bound), commercial (business bound, and vocational. Because of this, what some may consider 'unfair' separation, students could get the best education to meet their specific goals.

[SpiralHawk]

89. Bingo - the republicon policies have Way Degraded our schools

I now recognize that republicons actually want to Dumb Down the nation, so their lies and propaganda will float uncriticized. Stupid people make stupid choices: they vote republicon fear, corruption, and FAIL.

[HubertHeaver]

4. Ronald Ray-Gun

[pleah]

22. That was my first thought.

When Ray-gun was in charge he cut school funding and many, if not all, small schools closed. Then they started building mega-schools, then school shootings started. School shootings were unheard of before then.


And, I will add, that all of the above are guilty of aiding and abetting in the down fall of our school system.

[goddess40]

30. Add NCLB to Ray-gun and theres the answer

But part of it is trying to be to inclusive. We expect our teachers to teach all types of kids at one time, which simply can't be done adequately. Some group needs to come back.

[Madam Mossfern]

88. Thank you

I couldn't agree with you more, although I think I'll take some heat for that.

[Initech]

76. Yup. Ray-gun gutted the education system and gave it to his corporate criminal buddies.

Especially the ones who wanted to fuck shit up in Nicaragua and Colombia in the so-called "war on drugs".

[XemaSab]

5. Everyone

From the President of the US right on down.

Including parents and students.

[tazkcmo]

15. I agree

Everyone

[Xithras]

38. Yep, all of the above.

I've met lousy teachers, lousy parents, lousy administrators, and lousy kids. I've seen lousy school boards, lousy government officials, and more lousy ideas than I can count.

When it comes to our schools, everyone has dropped the ball.

[riley3]

6. The NCLB and Republicans are to blame.

[ColbertWatcher]

18. This is my pick too. n/t

[sandnsea]

7. Parents & Students??? Well la de da

I'd have been generous and said everybody - but it's clear who runs the damn schools and it's not the parents.

[arcadian]

11. Parents have more say than teachers.

At a lot of public schools. I know of admins who are terrified of parents.

[sandnsea]

19. No they don't

and I'm not even going to argue it here. It's useless. But until teachers accept that their are some really awful ones, in every single school, we'll never make significant progress on education.

[proud2BlibKansan]

36. There are no really awful teachers in my school

FAIL

[blonndee]

48. Oh yes they do.

At least here, they do. The parents run the schools. And since most of them blame everybody except their own selves and their kids, and since the small-town politics make it so that the administration is scared to stand up to them and enforce any policy or standard consistently, nothing is ever accomplished. Everyone blames everyone else, and the teachers get it worse than anyone. Easy scapegoats. We can't stand up for ourselves, we can't make suggestions (even though we're the ones "in the trenches" and know what our students need and what works), but we still somehow get blamed when anything goes wrong and/or fails.

[Fire1]

54. That depends on your definition of 'awful.'

[Fire1]

52. That's one of the biggest problems.

[JustFiveMoreMinutes]

17. I voted Parents & Students as well... LA DE DAH

Sorry, it's PARENTS who should ensure their kids have a good start before they even begin school.
That they get good rest, good study, do homework, ATTEND school, and if unruly IN school, DISCIPLINE them.

The Students themselves are responsible for listening, studying, questioning, and doing the work.

It's NOT osmosis that happens in the schools...

.. and if your little DARLING is out 20+ days in the school year.....

No amount of WHO RUNS the schools is going to do a GD thing.

[sandnsea]

23. 80% of kids start school at level

And then it all goes down from there. The majority of parents do their job. I would say the majority of teachers do theirs too. Really, a lousy principal will destroy a school quicker than anything else. But what do I know. I'm only a parent. Watch how shitty I get treated in this thread - and then tell me it's ALL the parents again.

la de fucking da.

[arcadian]

35. The majority of parents do their job?

If all you're talking about is mixing sperm with and egg, then yeah, on that level a majority of parents have done their job. Beyond that? Not so much.

[AwakeAtLast]

43. I see 5 out of 7 Kindergarten classes once every week

80% of them did not start out at even Pre-K level. It's been twelve weeks of full day teaching and there has been minimal progress. Some of the parents can't even get them to school on time when they get them there at all.

If you have research that does show your 80% number, I would really like to see it.

[Goblinmonger]

60. Do you understand anything about "at level"?

and how the trend is for kids to trend down in this regard for a lot of different reasons, significalty that the material gets more and more difficult as the level increases? It's not a linear climb.

It's not all parents. We have a couple shitty teachers at my school, but even they can teach something to kids. If the kids come to us not ready or willing to learn, then I'm fucked.

[YvonneCa]

102. At my school, 20% start at level. Most go...

...up from there, but have trouble trying to play catch up.

[BamaGirl]

67. My oldest missed

over 30 days of school last year. Migraines are a bitch. She was in 6th grade last year, finished the year with all A's, and won the science fair. I told her when she started this year it's more important that she be healthy than let her school stress her out like they did last year. When you spend an entire year telling a handful of students that the school's grading, their scores, depend really on this handful of kids, it's a problem.

This year I have two girls in middle school. My 7th grader is really smart. My 6th grader? She has the highest math standardized test scores in the district and the county. One of the highest in the state. Her grades suck, but the girl can do some math. (Which, btw, is fucking awesome!) But my approach has been really, really different this year. They made my kid sick last year they put so much pressure on her. I am not doing that again. Still, my oldest (13), has missed about 12 days so far this year. I've tried very hard to not put any pressure on my girls this year, cause gawd knows, the school is doing it for me. They aren't asking my girls to do well. They are demanding they be the best. I went through that myself. I know how detrimental it is.

I'll agree that it is my job to ensure my children do well in school. It is also my job to keep the school system from fucking my kids up. And the system, my friends, is FUBAR.

[dysfunctional press]

59. parents are more responsible for their child's education than the teachers.

the problem is that most parents don't realize that.

[Tiggeroshii]

8. The Democrats.

Clearly since they had so much power these whole last 8 years, they are to blame.

[Fumesucker]

9. School boards...

They are in charge of how schools are run.

Get to know some of your local school board members.

It will prove to be educational, I assure you.

[Deja Q]

12. Combination of factors.

I ought to write a book...

Schools may or may not have money, but what incites the kids to learn?

Their parents?

Their peers?

The media that would rather dumb people down because of the lowest common denominator being the biggest ratings and therefore most sponsors and their money too?

In my day, wanting to learn was a sign of geekdom, nerdiness, being God's little joke, whatever.

[KittyWampus]

13. as the daughter of two retired teachers- PARENTS. Teachers have to do social work now

along with teaching and parents refuse to discipline their kids.

[Fire1]

55. Along with class size.

[Madam Mossfern]

91. I don't know about that class size thing.

When I went to school, the classes were so large, that some of us had to sit on the radiator covers. But then again, we were expected to be quiet, listen, do our work, be engaged and prepared. It's been my experience that children tend to perform according to expectation (not pressure).

[VPStoltz]

72. The work-life expectancy of a new teacher is now down to 3 years.

For two reasons: the tons of paper required by NCLB and the lack of discipline.
Once was the that day when the top of the list of requirements for a good teacher was "excellent knowledge of subject" and "superior planning of lessons."
The number one requirement for a good teacher today is "Classroom management."

[Bigmack]

14. Money. This country spends ...

between $25K and $45K per prisoner.

Until we spend that kind of money per kid......

[gateley]

16. Agree -- it's always the money. nt

[Chulanowa]

26. Whatever idiot came up with the idea of funding them with property taxes

Thereby ensuring the poor gt a poor school and the wealthy get a good school. Shools nee full and even funding from the state. They're not a perk, they're not a business, they're a social lynchpin to the fabric of our society.

[XemaSab]

29. A-MEN!

:toast:

[Bill McBlueState]

108. From the perspective of rich parents, property taxes are a great way to fund schools

Under the property tax system, kids in wealthy districts compete against a much smaller talent pool when they apply to elite colleges. How many kids in urban and ultra-rural districts ever apply to Ivy League schools?

I suspect parents in wealthy districts like it that way.

[Turbineguy]

28. The way the schools are funded.

The most important people in the system are the building contractors, bond sellers, books-, equipment- and supplies vendors.

The schools are scheduled to fit in with bus schedules.

The students don't know why they are there, the parents can't read or understand the textbooks so they can help their kids.

The Administration invents ways to grow the bureaucracy and the Teachers bear the brunt.

[Chulanowa]

34. The textbooks are a big problem, yes

From what i've seen of my younger sister's school stuff (there's a decade difference between the two of us, so, quite a different sort of schooling) these things are designed to be like television on paper, rather than informative. Flasy color-coded indices, a table of contents that tells you where each side-of-the-page factoid is, the text is warped and cut to make way for big pictures, and the things are HUGE. My sister's small - She graduates this year and is only five feet - but she packs around about 60 lbs of books for homework.

From what I can gather, history books are the worst, moreso by the fact that contrary to a lot of student's belief, an understanding of history is as integral to their day-to-day life a basic math is. "Lies My Teacher Told Me" is a great critique of how hitory is taught in chools and through textbooks, but I see the same problems in science books nd even mathematics texts - shiny pictures, low information and "super happy fun" projects littered around the pages. They're designed to look impressive to approvl boards, not to educate.

Strangely, literature and grammar books are still pretty good, from what I've seen. I guess when the course revovles arounf words and their proper usage, a page full of words is preferred?

[surrealAmerican]

58. You've got a point here.

My children have had some abysmal textbooks. They're beautiful laid out, but seem to have no useful content. Better teachers, however, refuse to rely on these books.

[Chulanowa]

63. A lot of teachers don't have a choice

It's just that the better ones mangle their own personal schedule in order to provide extra for their students.

I've had a few bad teachers, but the last thing I'm going to do is load all the ills of the school system onto their shoulders. Really, it's not like people become teacher for the great pay, loose hours, and big benefits...

[AdHocSolver]

71. My kid's history book was written by eight professors of education -- not one history major.

That was a few years ago. He asked me for help with his homework. Actually, it was more like he was complaining about the homework, so I "offered" to help.

I looked at the questions and prceeded to help him find the answers in the text. There was no correlation between the questions at the end of the chapter and the material in the text. I couldn't figure out what information in the chapter text would satisfy the question.

I looked at the front page for the authors. It listed eight professors of education. Not one professor of history.

I'm giving a KICK and a RECOMMEND for this post to keep it active as this is a very important subject for this country. The survival of our democracy and our economy depend upon these issues being widely discussed.

[norepubsin08]

32. I put other

It's the fucking repukes who in cahoots with their nut bag religious idiots have done all in their power to denigrate, de-fund and demoralize the public schools in this nation. Also the culture of "stupid" that they have fostered. Look at is climax: Joe the plumber, Sarah Palin and it's poster boy that idiot we have who calls himself a president.

[DU GrovelBot]

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[Ian David]

37. BEARS!

[FormerDittoHead]

40. I remember being in high school - here's what I think a big part of it is: JOBS!

If you told a ninth graders that if they get through this thing, and you perform up to a certain way, YOU'LL GET A GOOD JOB, you'd see the whole system turn around.

[Chulanowa]

45. That's exactly what they're told

And then they see college-educated men and women serving sandwiches at subway and that gets blown out the window. An education is no guarrantee of a job (good or otherwise), and the myth that it is is easily dispelled by any student conducting empirical observations. Kids are smarter than most people credit them with, and they tend to catch on pretty fast when adults are lying to them.

[ccinamon]

41. sometimes its parents, sometimes its students and sometimes its teachers...

and sometimes, I don't think it is anyone's fault....in some cases, it is what it is.

I don't think there will ever be a single answer....in my case, I got little help from teachers in trying to get my son to do his work..my son has always been stubborn and strong-willed -- and unfortunately, charming.

I taught my kids to behave, and there was no trouble from the daughter, and 2 instances of trouble with my son in high school...and, there were consequences when homework wasn't done, or poor grades on their report card. Sometimes, kids don't care about consequences (my son is one of those), and sometimes teachers don't care to work with parents on a solution.....

(Very condensed story about my son and school work and teachers - just hitting the highlights)

My son started lying about homework once he got in Middle School...I could not get the teachers to work with me on getting him to do the homework. I couldn't make them understand that he lied to me about how much and when he had homework....they kept insisting it was MY job to make sure he got the homework done....how can I make him do homework when they couldn't even take the time to write down what it was he was supposed to do? I created this homework chart that every teacher had to sign every day so he could play or watch tv, after all homework was done...the teachers were supposed to write down the homework assignments and sign the chart....after a few weeks, some teachers didn't want to sign any more and then my son started lying to the teachers saying that we weren't doing the chart anymore...even though we had an agreement that we would do the chart until the teachers were told my ME that we were no longer doing the chart. It got confusing trying to remember which teachers wanted to participate and which ones didn't...at one point it even varied from week to week as to whether they wanted to help me!

In High School, he was suspended for 6 weeks; he fell behind on homework and classwork. I specifically told and wrote to each teacher telling them that my son needed to have a specific deadline for turning in the missing work as "soon as possible" was "never" in his mind. Most did not give him specific deadlines, then they called ME to complain about him not getting his work done on time (again, my son lying to me about how much and what type of homework/classwork he had to make up). Why is it MY fault when I warned them about my son and all they had to do was give a specific deadline?

Almost every year, there was at least one if not two teachers that would call me in, and tell me about my son not doing his work, etc...I told them, flunk him...he knows the consequences...their reply, EVERY SINGLE TIME: "I'll give him another chance and he will learn"....my answer was, "No, he will not....this has been going for many years and he still hasn't learned because teachers keep giving him 2nd and 3rd chances"....they did it anyway....what good are my consequences, when I can't get teachers to do their job and flunk him because he won't do the work?

So, why did my son lie? Because most of the homework was stuff he "already knew: and he didn't see a point in "doing stuff he already knew how to do"....he started this phrase in 1st grade and it didn't stop until he graduated. I never could convince him his life would be easier in school if he just did the work....he mostly got A's and a few B's on his tests,,,,homework was pretty much D's & F's (he only did the homework he found fun or interesting). Because the school district he was in weighted homework as more valuable than tests, his average was pretty much D's.

At the required end of year tests, he always placed in the 94+ percentile of any grade level he was in....he did learn, he just found homework a waste of his time and useless, and no amount of discussion, talking, arguing, disciplining would change his mind.

I did the best I could...I read books, tried lots of different techniques...nothing worked...we even went to therapy for several years...total bust.

[blonndee]

49. Man, I love parents like you! I have the exact opposite problem.

I believe in firm deadlines and tough love. I get little support from parents who want me to "make deals" with their kids who have been doing NOTHING, despite plenty of time to work in class. Teachers are pressured to not have too many kids flunk because it makes them and the school look bad and because it means that the admins have to "deal" with parents. I'm new and still stubborn, so I don't really care what the admins have to "deal" with. I'm more than willing to flunk a student, because I know that there is no way a student can fail my classes unless they just refuse to do the most basic of tasks. I work with parents and students and try really hard to get them involved. I'm just stunned at how many parents won't lift a finger to be involved in their own kids' futures.

[ccinamon]

77. I wish he had several teachers like you!!

Maybe then I would have gone ahead and allowed him to be in the Gifted program. By this point, I didn't trust the teachers or the administrators.

When he was in 6th grade they wanted to put him in the "Gifted" program....however, the school districts idea for "gifted" students was to jump them 2 grade levels and give them double to triple the amount of homework....the worse part was he wouldn't be allowed to use the computers until he was in 7th grade....(this was in 1996 -- he already had a computer at home that he was sharing with his sister).

Double homework for a kid who didn't believe in doing homework, right....I'm gonna fall for that! He basically would spend all of his evenings doing school work and projects and no time for anything fun (if anyone could convince him to do any of the work) ....I turned it down. The school district was very unhappy with me and tried to convince me that he would find the projects (that the teachers assigned for the most part) fun, and that he would soon "catch up" in 8th grade math by tripling up the homework and staying after school for extra help if needed. Riiiggghhhttt -- been there, done that, not successful.

The only way I could see my son in a gifted program was if he was allowed to spend a good portion of his time doing what he was interested in, but that wasn't an option until 8th grade! It was the most bizaare gifted program I'd ever heard about. Work your ass off with double-triple homework for two years and then you get rewarded....how screwed up is that?

I might have been wrong, he might have done well, but I couldn't see it based on 6 years of this school district and it's teachers.

[surrealAmerican]

61. Your son was too perceptive. He was right, the homework ...

... was of no use to him. He was learning the material perfectly well without it. Unfortunately for him, in a large class, the teacher has no good way of telling who's learning, they can only tell who's completing the work. This changes the focus of education from learning content to learning work habits. Work habits do have importance, but they are frequently treated as the only focus of school.

[ccinamon]

75. That's very similar to what I told him (numerous times every year)...

I said, the teacher needs proof that you can do the work and that you really do know it....his reply, she should just trust me when I tell her (this was still in 1st grade).

I told him, but some kids lie and she needs proof....he says, but mom, i did the work in class,,,, i replied, but she wants to make sure you remember what you learned, so you do it again at home. He says, but, i don't forget and I don't see why I have to do the same thing at home that I just did in school.

:shrug: It was pretty much the same battle all year, every year.

[BamaGirl]

73. I've been fighting with my 6th grader abou this

"So, why did my son lie? Because most of the homework was stuff he "already knew: and he didn't see a point in "doing stuff he already knew how to do"....he started this phrase in 1st grade and it didn't stop until he graduated."

Our biggest problem is in her algebra class. The other kids in there are older and mostly struggling. My kid does it in her head. And she is really, really pissed they are not only making her show work, but penalizing her when she skips a step. It's been a real nightmare. That, I already know it thing? I can totally relate! :hug:

[ccinamon]

80. It's nice that they are smart enough to recognize what they know...

...but it's pain that they know this because they can argue their point VERY well....it can wear you down!

My son figured out how to do some math problems in a slightly different way than what it was taught...he got dinged for the "wrong" answer...the answer was always correct, he just didn't do it the "correct" way...it's like they don't want to teach critical thinking skills, they just want robotoids!

Yeah, he got dinged for not showing his work, but if he showed his work and he didn't do it the "correct" way, they would take off more points then if didn't show the work at all!!

Very weird.

[Madam Mossfern]

92. My daughter stopped doing homework in 3rd grade

"How many times do I have to add two and two to get four mom?" I told her teacher that I could sit her at the table put a pencil, paper and book in front of her, but that was as far as I could go. She aced every exam and ended up as Valedictorian of her high school graduating class.

Sometimes kids don't fit into the structure of the school. Then it's important for parents, teachers and administration to try to address the issue in a way that's best for all. In my daughter's case, I convinced the amazed teachers to give my daughter extra work (I did that with one of my sons too). They instantly became more responsible and engaged.

Maybe your son was bored.

[Stuart G]

42. Uneven Funding of Schools around the country causes many..

problems. Funding is mostly controlled by local and state governments. Many states have an equalization factor, then the localities have to make up funds...Simply put, many local districts cannot afford quality education. So it is more than a local issue, it is a state issue too.

[Madam Mossfern]

44. I saw the quality of education spiraling downward

with the advent of local school boards. Sometimes its best to let professionals make decisions about public education policy rather that politically connected people who may know nothing about pedagogy. While there may be very dedicated school board members, sometimes they make unfortunate decisions.

I also blame what I consider new-fangled ideas....You know, like not teaching phonics, not correcting in red because it may bruise some child's ego to think that heaven forbid they were "wrong". Lowering of standards, social promotions, too many extra curricular activities and the general uncoolness of being smart. Too much reliance on technology, not playing in mud or watching clouds in formative years.

[musette_sf]

50. i agree with you on the local school boards

after all, this is how some of the most batsh!t crazy Repukes started out, prompted by Radical Cleric Falwell and the disaster known as the Reagan (Mis)Administration.

[Thothmes]

84. What is your solution

Dissolve all local controll of schools, turn it over to which ever administration is in DC?

[musette_sf]

94. are you a closet libertarian?

because your question sounds like a typical libertarian question.

so if i don't want batshit crazy Xians using the local school board as a springboard to more powerful political positions, and if i don't want batshit crazy Xians deciding what kids will (and WON'T) learn - the ONLY alternative is total Federal control of schools?

to a libertarian there is nothing between blackest black and whitest white. which is one of the reasons for its abject failure as an ideology.

[Thothmes]

97. Again what is your solution?

If you do not like the idea of local people controlling the schools that their tax dollars support because republicans get elected, what alternative do you propose? I will entertain any intelligent solution to the problem that you have identified.

[musette_sf]

98. i see the answer is "yes"

and so i'm not going down the libertarian rat hole. bye :hi:

[Thothmes]

99. No the answer is not yes

If the school systems in this country are not to be operated by local school boards, as they are now, what are the options. Each state is responsible for the schools in their jurisdiction. Do they assume total control of the schools. There is probably no legal bars from this happening The U.S. Constitution does not reserve a roll in education for the Federal Government. Right now, the Federal Government exercises influence through the allocation of funds. If a State or a district want federal money, then they have to comply with the rule that the Government directs. If they do not want to follow the Governments directions, they are free to do that, but they do not get the money. This is how NCLB operates. The only the current administration gets states to follow NCLB is through the allocation of money. To give the Federal Government legal authority to direct the activites of schools systems will require an amendment to the Constitution. Do you recommend that the states step in do away with the school board system in their state. Do you recommend that we amend the Constitution to give the U.S. Government a legal mandate to administer the nations school. These are the options that I can think of. If you have another solution to the issue of local school board control of schools I would like to hear it.

[musette_sf]

101. i didn't say i didn't believe in local school board control

i also didn't say that i believed in it. i believe what i said is that i think that batsh!t crazy fundies should not be on local school boards, and should not use that as a springboard to greater notoriety.

the ideas and solutions that are needed to improve US schools are far too complex to make into a black and white issue, as libertarians so love to do. "either yer fer it or yer agin it"

so, the answer is yes, you are a closet libertarian. i don't do libertarian rat hole arguments. bye again. :hi:

[Thothmes]

64. Not sure where you live

Most Western state schools systems are run by local boards and have been since the turn of the 20th century. Most of those "new fangled ideas" originate from "professionals" that are well educated in pedagogy.

[Madam Mossfern]

68. Professionals also have

failing ideas. I live in the metropolitan New York area. What do you attribute the decline of American students ability as compared to the rest of the world? What I have seen in some instances is emphasis on a child's self esteem to the detriment of performance.

Case in point:

My daughter was in Advanced Placement classes when she was in high school. There were standards for placement in AP classes. There were parents who thought that their children deserved to be in those classes even though they had not met the criteria. Fearing a lawsuit, the students were permitted to take the classes. The outcome was that it was difficult for the teachers to cover all the material because they had to spend time going over materials several times because these students didn't understand.

[Thothmes]

86. I do not see that the individual students capabilities have

declined. Potential Einsteins, average joes/jills and stone blocks are born every minute in the country. The failure of education is not lack of ability of the majority of students, it is American society's unwillingness to develope those abilites. Students perform in the environment that we the adults create for them. Simply put, we do not require a large percentage of our students to perform the level they are capable. We may not fund the effort, we may not adequately prepare students for school, we may not motivate students adquately, we may not activley help them, we may not provide a suitable environment for study, both in the class room or the home. The fact that we do produce a large number of well educated students every year indicates that there is absolutly no single pat answer as to what has gone wrong with educating the rest that did not get a good education. I agree with a lot of the sentiments put forward in the thread. I do not think programs like NCLB provide the answer, I also think that simply throwing masses of money at schools systems will not provide the desired results either. Hope this answers your question of me.

[Canuckistanian]

46. Rick Astley n/t

[spanone]

47. we spend more money on our military than the rest of the world combined!

[noamnety]

51. A whole pack of issues

Institutionalized racism.

NCLB. And no, you can't just say "that's federal, not local - I'm asking about local" because the requirements of it impact the way we are forced to teach.

Media - a shift from young children reading and doing to sitting in front of televisions, which affects brain development.

A shift in diet which affects development, attention span, behavior.

Funding shortfalls, funding inequities.

Economic realities that force both parents/single parents to work outside the home til they are beat tired, which affects the type and amount of interactions they have with their kids.

I think there are some awful teachers - but I don't believe the percentage of awful teachers has changed over the years so I won't blame it on that.

I think there are some awful parents - but again, I doubt that percentage has changed, so that's not responsible for a decline in schools.

Dumbed down textbooks that are designed not to require critical thinking, because we don't want to be critical of certain things - it's considered unAmerican.

[SoCalDem]

53. Decades of demonization of "liberal education" & "science-y stuff"

and of low pay for teachers, endless "regulations" for schools & teachers, additional tasks for underpaid teachers- for no extra pay..

Fear of lawsuits from parents who are so broke, that they LOOK for ways to sue the school district..

just a few off the top of my head :)

[Joe Fields]

56. Skinner is responsible.

[YvonneCa]

103. ...

...:7

[TWiley]

57. Religion, "Charter" schools, and conservative politics

The conservative fundamentalists are consistently wrong on every issue more often than any other group. They bat near 100% WRONG every time, every issue.

Add the stupidity of the cut cut cut conservatives who are terrified of paying their fair share of anything, and the system is wrong and bankrupt at the same time.

[roody]

62. lower standards?

Kindergarten is the new first grade. Now kids are expected to learn to read in K.

[Madam Mossfern]

93. Which is not necessarily the best policy

learning how to read needs to take a back seat to reading readiness. Again, to use my daughter as an example......She had playmates who were 'reading' at age three or four while she was playing pretend, making mud pies, being read to (not having to sound out or read along.) She didn't start reading until first grade, and within 4 months was reading on a higher level than her friends who started at 3 years old. Yes, developing critical thinking skills should start early and be reinforced. Sometimes that may make for difficult situations as far as discipline...I was never able to say "because I'm the mommy" easily, but my children are all independent thinkers who are not easily bamboozled by anyone.

[Mr Generic Other]

65. schools are designed to sort students

and identify them for their future roles in the economy and society. once this role has been identified students are given just the skills and knowledge they need to fulfill that role and no more. american workers, specialized or compartmentalized? or fractured? not whole people, but beings who buy crap to fill the void.

What exactly is the purpose of our public schools?

From "AGAINST SCHOOL: How public education cripples our kids, and why." By John Taylor Gatto
http://www.spinninglobe.net/againstschool.htm

Mass schooling of a compulsory nature really got its teeth into the United States between 1905 and 1915, though it was conceived of much earlier and pushed for throughout most of the nineteenth century. The reason given for this enormous upheaval of family life and cultural traditions was, roughly speaking, threefold:

1) To make good people. 2) To make good citizens. 3) To make each person his or her personal best. These goals are still trotted out today on a regular basis, and most of us accept them in one form or another as a decent definition of public education's mission, however short schools actually fall in achieving them. But we are dead wrong. Compounding our error is the fact that the national literature holds numerous and surprisingly consistent statements of compulsory schooling's true purpose. We have, for example, the great H. L. Mencken, who wrote in The American Mercury for April 1924 that the aim of public education is not
to fill the young of the species with knowledge and awaken their intelligence. ... Nothing could be further from the truth. The aim ... is simply to reduce as many individuals as possible to the same safe level, to breed and train a standardized citizenry, to put down dissent and originality. That is its aim in the United States... and that is its aim everywhere else.
...
Alexander Inglis in his 1918 book, "Principles of Secondary Education', breaks down the purpose - the actual purpose - of modem schooling into six basic functions, any one of which is enough to curl the hair of those innocent enough to believe the three traditional goals listed earlier:

1) The adjustive or adaptive function. Schools are to establish fixed habits of reaction to authority. This, of course, precludes critical judgment completely. It also pretty much destroys the idea that useful or interesting material should be taught, because you can't test for reflexive obedience until you know whether you can make kids learn, and do, foolish and boring things.

2) The integrating function. This might well be called "the conformity function," because its intention is to make children as alike as possible. People who conform are predictable, and this is of great use to those who wish to harness and manipulate a large labor force.

3) The diagnostic and directive function. School is meant to determine each student's proper social role. This is done by logging evidence mathematically and anecdotally on cumulative records. As in "your permanent record." Yes, you do have one.

4) The differentiating function. Once their social role has been "diagnosed," children are to be sorted by role and trained only so far as their destination in the social machine merits - and not one step further. So much for making kids their personal best.

5) The selective function. This refers not to human choice at all but to Darwin's theory of natural selection as applied to what he called "the favored races." In short, the idea is to help things along by consciously attempting to improve the breeding stock. Schools are meant to tag the unfit - with poor grades, remedial placement, and other punishments - clearly enough that their peers will accept them as inferior and effectively bar them from the reproductive sweepstakes. That's what all those little humiliations from first grade onward were intended to do: wash the dirt down the drain.

6) The propaedeutic function. The societal system implied by these rules will require an elite group of caretakers. To that end, a small fraction of the kids will quietly be taught how to manage this continuing project, how to watch over and control a population deliberately dumbed down and declawed in order that government might proceed unchallenged and corporations might never want for obedient labor.

fascinating and, in my opinion, an accurate assessment of american schools currently and historically. like SAT tests (derived from the stanford binet)the idea is efficiency (think NCLB). actually observing and engaging students provides much better evidence for evaluation of skills and knowledge but it is a more time consuming and costly endeavor.
teachers want to foster well-rounded, interested and interesting students and they work very hard attempting to meet that goal. but since they are products of the same compartmentalized, deadly system they (for the most part) don't know what they are up against.
the economy demands factory workers the schools produce them. the economy demands fast food workers the schools produce them. got jobs for losers you need losers to fill those jobs. the schools produce them.
well-rounded people aren't as easily controlled since they are confident in their own ability to figure things out. those who lack confidence need leaders to tell them what to think/do.
gatto has written much on this and related topics. many of his works can be viewed at: the john taylor gatto page
http://www.spinninglobe.net/gattopage.htm

[AdHocSolver]

66. Colleges of education, textbook publishers, politicians, and corporations looking for pliable drones

Students, teachers, and parents have little say in what is taught or how it is taught. They are all merely cogs in a failed and corrupt system.

You can't come up with a solution if you don't even understand the problem. At the time of my writing this reply, I have not seen one response to this post that shows an understanding of the issues.

First, start with the results you want to see from educating children. Everyone assumes that everyone involved has the same goals.

Second, think about what you would teach and how you would teach it. Forget about using any existing school systems that you know about. Start from scratch. Then compare your thoughts with what comprises a curriculum, methodology, and teaching materials actually used in many schools.

To get you started, I would include these goals for any educational system. These goals are not cast in stone. They are to help people think about the issues in a meaningful way.

By the fifth grade, students should be able to read all of the words in any undergraduate college text. They need not understand the material. However, they should be able to READ the book and pronounce the words easily and fluently. Students should be able to use a dictionary.

Students should be able to compose a paragraph of six or seven sentences that can convey some meaningful information to another person. Spelling and grammar should be correct. The student should be able to accomplish this in, say, twenty minutes, including any words that may need to be looked up in a dictionary.

By the seventh grade, say, students should be "fluent" in arithmetic, be able to set up and solve simple algebraic equations, and understand basic trigonometry, and geometry.

Starting in elementary school, students should get exposure to at least one other language besides their native tongue. They should be able to speak intelligently in simple sentences to a native speaker of that second language.

Students should get some training in music and learn to play some kind of musical instrument. Similar training should be given in art and photography. Besides sports, I would teach dance and tai chi, for those less inclined towards sports.

One problem in todays schools, is that every area of learning is subsumed within some kind of competition. The teachers groom the "stars" for competition and essentially ignore the rest of the students. This was the experience of many of us in gym class, especially starting in middle school.

Another error endemic to school systems is that every class from fourth grade on is merely a "survey" course repeated over and over until you leave high school. Nothing is ever studied in depth. Succeeding grades merely rehash what was studied superficially in the previous grade with more useless "details" piled on. Grades are based on tests, often multiple choice, or of a similar nature, that amount to mere guessing games. If a student is required to write a paper, it is usually about something they know nothing about and couldn't care less to write. It is an exercise in the mechanics of writing with no concern about the substance of the topic or even conveying any meaningful expression of the writer.

The result of the system is bored kids who dislike writing, math, science, and literature.

Colleges of education should be abolished. Especially for the lower grades, they devise the curricula, write the textbooks, promote theories and practices about education that are little better than the latest diet plan to lose weight. I have a degree from one of them. I also taught school for a couple of years. They merely train teachers to repeat the mistakes of their predecessors.

The best teachers I had were innovators (often late in their careers) or "rebels". From my own experience in teaching, school administrators are alert to suppress innovation or "nonstandard" teaching methods. As one of my (better) education professors quipped: "The principal is the general, the teachers are the privates, and the children are the enemy."

As for the corporations, they have promoted the idea that the most important function of the schools is to prepare children to get a job, specifically a job as an obedient, docile, and tractable worker drone in their corporation. Train them properly in the lower grades, and even those who go on to college will learn to be obedient, docile, and tractable when they become engineers, doctors, lawyers, or whatever.

Young children have a tremendous capacity to learn. The time they spend in the usual educational environment in this country is largely wasted. Children should be taught how to study a subject in-depth, how to solve problems, how to express themselves easily and intelligently, and they should study and become at least moderately competent in a broad range of subjects. The current educational system in this country is not set up to accomplish any of these goals for a majority of the students.

The schools have to be "re-engineered" from the "bottom" up. Colleges of education are one cause of the problem. They should NOT be leading this endeavor. Similarly, corporations should stay out of the process. I have found that the higher you go in management in many corporations, the less competent the management becomes.

[Fumesucker]

79. Nice post, I largely agree with you. n/t

[seabeyond]

69. i wasnt going to vote cause my kids schools, all of them, are awesome.

the best. i love them. then i saw parent and students and really, all these years watching kids and being a part, i solely put it on the parents and students.

now

my hubby tells me that the area and schools in this town are just exceptional and if i went elsewhere i would see other. but the teachers and adm that i have always respect are mere people, i cant see that they would be particularly exceptional.

i was talking to sons 8th grade math teacher yesterday about tired of people dissing schools. my kids learn way more than we learned three decades ago.

[VPStoltz]

70. I don't see "All of the above."

[1]

74. our children grow more ignorent every day.

children today could not pass a test required to advance 100 years ago.

basic skills. math. reading. geography. the fundamental makeup of the united states government.

it wasn't about money 100 years ago. there was none.

its not about money now. it doesn't matter how much you throw at the problem.

our expectations now are so low. pass them all, don't hurt their little feelings. dumb down the whole bunch. whatever...

that is the problem.

[vanderBeth]

78. How about all of the above?

[leftofthedial]

81. parents and repukes

[MN Farmer]

82. Want to know the real cause?

We have crappy schools because we have communities filled with crappy people who raise crappy kids.

How many times have you attended a school board meeting and the turnout has been dismal? Many times there are more empty seats than filled ones.

How many PTA meetings have you gone to where it's the same faces, same people, struggling to meet the same needs ever week, month and year?

How often do you volunteer at your local school? Give it a try-we can throw all the money in the world at education, but money doesn't solve anything without PEOPLE and TIME and EFFORT.

Screaming on an internet message forum will solve nothing in your local schools, involvement is the answer-we can't just pay teachers, build structures, and send the kids off and they magically come back wisened and educated. It takes time, effort and involvement. It takes a village.

We're really lucky that where we live, we have a good school with lots of good teachers-they don't always have the time, unlimited funding or the tools they would like to have, but they give it their all, and with the help of volunteers, do a pretty damn good job of educating the children of the community.

When I can, I go and assist our shop and FFA instructors in any way I can. I had to go through a background check (whoop-dee-doo), but when I am caught up on my own chores and tasks here at home and things have slowed down (winter coincides with slow times farming, so it's a good trade), I help teach kids welding, auto repair, ag, and other industrial tech hands-on stuff.

The reason I got into it, was my oldest had ind tech her 5th grade year, and in BSing with the teacher at conferences, he complained that he had good kids, good equipment, but welding, wood working, auto repair and similar subjects is so hard to teach WELL with 20 kids and one instructor-one thing led to another, and I began as a teacher's aide-unpaid of course, but it's really cool watching a kid that never has so much as been able to fix his own bicycle flat learn to rebuild a small engine, or fabricate his own go-cart frame for that engine.

FFA, well that's just a natural for me being a farmer, I honestly think I know more about Ag than the instructor does, but he's got the teaching certificate.

In the summer, I help the marching band program (my daughter plays percussion) by following with an antique tractor and hay wagon for a "sag wagon"-many never think about it, but those marching band uniforms are VERY hot, and those kids consume ALOT of water on a 4 mile parade route, and that water has to be toted somewhere. That, and prepare for the worst-we keep the first aid gear hidden behind the perimeter hay bales-heatstroke needs to be dealt with ASAP, and there is the need for a kid that's just plumb tuckered out from heat and exhaustion to have a place to ride in the shade for a bit.

What I'm saying is, that without hands-on community involvement, nothing will get better, it will just plug along like a horse and wagon without a driver until that horse stops and asks WHY BOTHER? Nobody cares.

[ulysses]

83. yeah, it's everyone.

Yes, I've worked with some "on the job retirees", autopilot drones who haven't changed anything they do in thirty years and others who should never have been in a classroom. Some. Yes, I've worked under some tyrannical administrators who see encouraging kids to leave school as a way to save the school. Some.

So the profession takes its lumps. But to say "it's the teachers' fault!" ignores a popular culture that has no use for basic knowledge about any damn thing, much less independent thought. It ignores parents who don't read to their kids. And it ignores the fact that our "world standing" in education level is skewed because we take all comers into our schools and include them in our tests instead of weeding out the ones we think might not be able to do.

[goforit]

90. BUSH. Bush is truely responsible for all that goes wrong. "End of story"

[mudesi]

95. REPUBLICANS

I can't believe the choices you put in there.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

96. American culture is the problem

Knowing stuff is considered "elitist" and "snobbish."
The important things in life are shopping, celebrities, gadgets, and sports.
The measure of a good job is the amount of money you make.
If taking a certain class won't help you get a good job, it's useless.
If an idea won't help you pass the tests in that class, it's useless.
If you're forced to take a class that you consider useless, just try to suss out "what the teacher wants" and try to brown-nose your way to an A.
God forbid that you should learn the material or even worse, enjoy it.
Make life socially difficult for the kids who enjoy reading and tell them what losers they are.
If required to cut your school budget, then increase class sizes, cut out art and music, anything but cutting varsity sports.
If your child misbehaves in school, it's the teacher's fault for having a "boring" class.
If your child gets a poor grade, the teacher is persecuting him or her.
If a teacher teaches material that makes the students think about and debate complex questions, he or she is "putting ideas into the kids' heads."

[Greyhound]

104. Where's the "What Lydia said" choice?

Are you Groucho's famous encyclopedia?
:kick:

[YvonneCa]

100. Decision makers who know NOTHING about kids, schools...

...or the challenges currently faced by families imposing policies that undermine teaching and learning. This happens at ALL levels...local, state and federal...to the point that schools cannot function. It's more than NCLB, but NCLB is the final 'straw.'

What's scary is that I'm not sure our best leaders (even Obama) know this.

[Overseas]

105. Anti-democratic funding based on wealth of neighborhood via property taxes.

That's really revolting to me. The way a supposedly democratic country can have such a classist system of school quality dependent upon area property taxes. If you can afford a nice house, you'll get a nice school. If not-- tough luck, sucker!

That and conservative control of the media encouraging the dumbing down of America and anti-science sentiments.

And Republican attempts to ignore our country's founding principle of the separation of church and state.

[Bill McBlueState]

106. We all are

Until our culture decides to value education and makes it clear to young people that we do, our schools are going to remain second-rate.

[KamaAina]

107. Other: White-flight suburbanites

specifically, for the horrible state of our nation's inner-city schools.

[Bill McBlueState]

109. You get what you pay for

Thirty years of electoral support for anti-tax extremists means all public institutions are having a hard time reaching their goals. Public schools are no different.