The cost of GM's death

[DainBramaged]

If Congress thinks a bailout of General Motors is expensive, it should consider the cost of a GM failure.

Let's be clear. The alternative to government cash for GM is not a dreamy Chapter 11 filing, a reorganization that puts dealers and the UAW in their place, ensuring future success.

No, even if GM could get debtor-in-possession financing to keep the lights on (which it can't), Chapter 11 means a collapse of sales and a spiral into a Chapter 7 liquidation.

GM's 100,000 American jobs will die. Health care for a million Americans will be lost or at risk. Hundreds of GM's 1,300 suppliers will die. Their collapse could take down Ford Motor Co. and Chrysler LLC, perhaps even North American transplants. Dealers in every county of America will close.

The government will face greater unemployment, more Americans without health insurance and greater pension liabilities.

Criticize Detroit 3 executives all you want. But the issue today is not whether GM should have closed Buick years ago, been tougher with the UAW or supported higher fuel economy standards.

In the next two to four months, GM will run out of cash and turn out the lights. Only government money can prevent that. Every other alternative is fantasy.

The $25 billion in loans that Congress approved to partially fund improvements in fuel economy? Irrelevant. Dead automakers do not invest in technology.

The collapse of the global financial system has crushed the American car market, dried up revenues for the Detroit 3 and highlighted their weaknesses.

Each of the Detroit 3 is in crisis. But Ford, which borrowed big two years ago and thus has more cash today, may skip a bailout and the strings attached. Cerberus, which bought Chrysler last year, doesn't deserve money. Government cash might help sell Chrysler to a strategic owner.

Some Detroit critics want their pound of flesh: Throw the bums out and install a government czar. Treasury Secretary Henry Paulson won't use any of his $700 billion bank bailout money to help manufacturers. In any case, he'd need a guarantee that a bailout would make Detroit "viable."

Well, nobody -- not even AIG -- is insuring guarantees for viability.

The taxpayer needs protection and an upside. GM's top management may need to go. Government-as-shareholder deserves a big voice. Those details can be worked out.

The Detroit 3 CEOs and UAW President Ron Gettelfinger had better tell two critical congressional hearings next week what sacrifices they are prepared to make.

But the stark fact remains: Absent a bailout, GM dies, and with it much of manufacturing in America. Congress needs to do the right thing -- now.

http://www.autonews.com/article/20081114/ANA02/811149966/1078 (subscription only, posted in full)


This is serious folks, and all of you dolts who think they should die, are just fools.

[firedupdem]

1. agreed...I don't think people fully understand. Allowing any of

the big 3 to die will be the beginning of the end...no mortgages being paid, no spending, and the list goes on and on. Something has to happen and quick.

[DainBramaged]

2. Those who gleefully call for their demise don't belong here

they aren't friends of Middle America, Unions, or the working class, they are scum.

[elleng]

3. I doubt

that many here 'gleefully call for their demise;' rather, sadly wish they and govt had handled things MUCH better over the years.

'Whats good for GM is good for the U.S.A.' wasn't, and isn't.

[DainBramaged]

5. Really Korea exported 760,000 cars to the US last year

know how many they let us import? 60,000. When the playing fields is level, America will be good for America again. What's good for GM IS America, not import buyers who don't support the American economy.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

50. South Korea has 1/6th of the population of the United States.

South Korea will never import as many cars from America as it exports to America. It's ridiculous to suggest that this is reasonable.

[JVS]

61. Does that number include the cars GM makes in South Korea?

Thanks for outsourcing, GM!

[rustydad]

99. No glee here

All auto companies around the world are quilty, but the Big Three more so. They have been building shit cars sense 80s. Cars that almost all are in junk yards in 10 years or so. Remember Chrysler's K car that Iococo used to get Chrysler moving? I had one and a piece of shit it was. Even foreign cars suck. My brother fixes cooling systems. He has a newer VW bug. He says the price he charges to replace the water pump is.......$2000 because the design is so complicated. So how does this bailout of say GM work? We spot them taxpayer money so they can keep employing folks to build shit cars they can't sell? Cars that no one will buy not knowing if GM will be around to make good on the warranty? Or not knowing if even parts will be available to fix the dam things? I'll tell you where the bailout $ will go. Bonuses for the management as they flock from the company. Bob

[Deja Q]

100. I am compelled to agree.

A damn shame that GM can't come up with that electric car, but health care and costs of living aren't their fault. Pity their management and workers can't tackle core problems. But then, can anybody?

[silverojo]

4. Even not considering all these very important things

The fact remains that the mass manufacturing of cars BEGAN in America, and it simply SHOULD NOT BE ALLOWED TO DIE.

These government fuckers who are against bailing out GM should have their limos taken away from them. Maybe THAT would open their eyes as to how important cars are to this country and its people. :mad:

[DainBramaged]

6. These fuckers fighting it have TRANSPLANT JAPANESE, GERMAN AND KOREAN

factories in their states and NO UAW. You don't think the Japanese Koreans and Germans aren't behind this?? Everyone who thinks not is a fool, FOOL,

[friendly_iconoclast]

27. Are GM and Ford cars built in other countries 'American' cars then?

Pardon me if I doubt GM's deep concern for American workers.

Is it OK to buy Volvo, Saab, or Jaguar? Your 'friends' at GM have been outsourcing
your jobs for years. Look up the term "Stockholm syndrome".

[JVS]

28. Chevy Aveo. A rebadged Daewoo, but supposedly 100% American!

And GM's main entry in the affordable and efficient transportation market.

[DainBramaged]

33. Not claimed to be 100% american, you playing the baiting game again?

[DainBramaged]

30. Another member who I will ignore. Get an education and stop slamming the American worker

[friendly_iconoclast]

43. I'm slamming the employer, GM, not the American worker

Geez, stop blasting people who (mostly) agree with you!

I've only owned *one* foreign car in my life ( a VW purchased from my godmother).

I have laid out a lot of hard earned bucks for GM cars and trucks over the years. Most of them have
been good rides, (the van, weeeel, that had the usual GM van quality problems).

I hate to see Americans unemployed, so I have to say this:

Giving billions to GM with the current management in place is like letting Jim Jones
keep running Jonestown. The apparatchiks running GM until recently NEVER faced the questions,
"Why are Toyota and Honda kicking our asses all over the place? Why do they have such good
word-of-mouth?"

At best, GM is looking at massive further layoffs. The best we can hope for is a smaller GM with
substantial employee ownership (yes, the UAW should own a chunk).

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

48. At least those companies are solvent.

Toyota isn't asking for a bailout from the American government, is it?

[frogcycle]

7. AGREED with an off-the wall suggestion

Put Bill Ford in charge of GM.

Yes, THAT Bill Ford.

The great-grandson of Henry. When he became CEO of Ford he started a big push to "go green." He is an environmentally-aware individual who "came in from the cold" to take over the company he and his family still own a big chunk of, and he was swimming upstream from day one, since the MBA "experts" wanted no part of hybrids and fuel efficiency when they could make more money at the moment on Navigators, what with all their successful lobbying for tax breaks. So Bill got kicked upstairs, and the rest is history. I bought their stock when he took over, watched it turn to shit.


I say let Bill take over GM, kick out the brain-dead morons who are clones of the ones that he caved in to at Ford, and do what he thinks is right. He could be the Lee Iococca of this whole mess.

And maybe merging the two companies would not be a bad thing. Spin off AC Delco, Motorcraft, the respective Engine Divisions, etc, consolidate them into companies with focus and get lean and mean, competing not with each other but with Japan, Europe, et al. Cut the number of nameplates to about a third, and concentrate on making the best possible version of each. USA Inc. needs to get back on its feet, and solidarity is the watchword.

As to concerns about lack of competition if they consolidate - they have plenty of competition from abroad. America and the American auto workers need a stable industry with a "Manhattan Project" mentality toward transportation in the next several decades.

These industries need to survive so they can be restructured. Going through a shutdown and mothballing of GM is not a logical step in that direction.

[flvegan]

8. I support a govt assistance package to GM, Ford and Chrysler.

I want strings, but that's a lesser issue. We need to keep them afloat. I'd do it in stages.

[navarth]

9. I agree, with only a few reservations.

The survival of Detroit is, of course, vitally important to me. It's my city and I love it as I love my own mother. The survival of the Big 3 Automakers is crucial to that survival, whether I like it or not.

But I feel the people at the top have fucked it up. Big time. I've been feeling that way for a long, long time. They've had plenty of time to pull their heads out of their collective asses and make fuel-efficient cars. Yes they did make some and lost money on them...and used that experience as an excuse not to do it anymore. But the fuel-efficient cars they made were UGLY. Remember the GEO? What was it, like 70 MPG? But it looked like SHIT. NO clever design, no long-term plan to keep it and improve it. IDIOTS. I won't go into more examples here. But I personally wouldn't complain if the entire management top level of the big 3 were fired.

ON THE OTHER HAND: The Big 3 has had to pay huge amounts of money for job safety, environmental protection, costs of making workers' lives better. All the while competing against Japanese companies that were helped by their government, unfair trade practices, no environmental controls. TOTALLY UNFAIR competition.

We should have been protecting American jobs with tariffs ALL ALONG. Why didn't we do it? Look where we are now. Those Japanese cars should have cost $5,000 more each.

The fault doesn't just lie with the Big 3 top executives. We should have been protecting those jobs.

[HCE SuiGeneris]

10. The real fools, the ones that deserve the brunt of the blame,

are the greedy board members that CHOSE to forgo R & D focused on cars with better gas mileage. These bastards sleep with the oil execs that continue to hold America hostage. Fuck 'em!

Time to kick their asses to the basement and finance the newer breeds... companies like Tesla and Mindset.

[DainBramaged]

13. right, can a tesla pull a tractor trailer?

Did you know they consume the equivalent of TWO refrigerators at IDLE in the garage? No of course not. Stop the economy, go back to horse drawn buggies while we electrify the automobile.

Who the fuck is going to have money to buy one if they are out of a job?

Shortsighted fools, DU is full of them.

[GrizzlyMan]

14. I'm on your side but.....

In reading this thread and the other tonight you seem to be rather caustic toward just about everyone who chimed in with a differing viewpoint. Is that really necessary to get your point across?

[HCE SuiGeneris]

16. Thank you, Grizzly...

Bit of ad hominem going about.

Best to just shut up and let Dain dictate, I suppose.

Nah.

[hughee99]

20. Modus operandi. n/t

[DainBramaged]

34. Do you work for GM or the UAW????

Any inside knowledge of the industry? What do you do for a living, knit?

[DainBramaged]

32. I'm tired of the bashing GM and the Unions get on DU, tired

If I put the word Toyota on an OP, it would be dripping with love and adoration, in spite of the fact that 70% of their products are gas guzzling over price imported pigs, but no one will open their eyes.


It it the hypocrisy I am so tired of here, progressives my ass, anti-American anti-worker snobs and no nothings.

[PVnRT]

95. Except, to you,

anyone who disagrees with you is a hypocrite. If someone argues that GM's management is stupid, you attack them for hating the unions and the workers. If someone argues that SUVs are gas-guzzlers, you start ranting about foreign cars. Haven forbid someone claim that they own a non-American car, or they're scum in your eyes.

Whatever. I'm sure you'll either respond with more flames that the mods let you get away with, or haughtily announce I'm going on your ignore list.

[PVnRT]

92. In his case, yes

Anyone who disagrees with him is automatically a "shortsighted fool," an idiot, un-American, hater of unions and "real Americans."

For some reason, the mods let him get away with it.

[HCE SuiGeneris]

17. Refrigerators are pretty efficient.

What's your point?

You are defending the strategic plans of these corporate raiders? America deserves better than to be led around for another 50 years by these buffoons. The technical and manufacturing skills of the employees can be put to better use in a more forward thinking, innovative, less corrupt environment. Change doesn't always come easily.

[JVS]

29. My brother had a GM fridge once. It was cool

[DainBramaged]

31. THE CEO"S are a MINISCULE part of the company

when are you people going to focus on the big picture instead of a few 'targets'???

[Name removed]

49. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[DainBramaged]

75. I've been really good since the election, I cleared my ignore list

but I think there is a place for you on it. Goodbye. Revel in your ignorance.

[GrizzlyMan]

79. Oh how will I ever go on

Being on your ignore list. The horror! Oh the humanity! Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!!!

burps....scratches crotch.

[DainBramaged]

35. Like the hummer, you pick "corporate buffoons" as a target

what are you talking about? Or do you have a clue?

[GrizzlyMan]

11. This issue is more important than AIG and the banks

These are REAL jobs we're talking about here. If GM and Ford go, companies like Goodyear will be next. I'm not a fan of how the management of these companies have been slow to adjust to issues like peak oil but the workers build the cars they are told to build.

I like what Obama has said about bailing out these companies. I'm all for it as long as he says, they begin to focus on cars that fit within the 21st century i.e. hybrids and lighter vehicles that are more fuel efficient. I think both GM and Ford have come around to that over the last few years, but it's now too late to help w/o govt. assistance.

And the unions are going to have to be part of it as well. Sacrifices will have to come from top to bottom. Sadly, I doubt the management with their fat cat golden parachutes will be as willing to make those sacrifices as the average worker.

[spag68]

12. GM

The saddest part of all of this is that no one seems to recognize that GM is building great cars right now. The Buick everyone wants gone is #3 on JD Powers initial quality, as well as least incidence of repair. That's 3 years now. Also in the top ten is the Small Caddy. GM has more different 30MPG vehicles then any other automaker. Japan and all the other countries subsidize the crap out of their cars, then dump them here. Can you spell health care? National health care there, not so much here. Further this is in reality the cutting of our standard of living to the bone, which has been the rethug plan since Nixon. GM has higher costs then Toyota and Honda, sure their plants are in right to work states that pay 50% less then UAW jobs. Some of the down south plants pay 18$ an hour or less, but in those states what alternative do the workers have? I say unionize all the car plants and let them compete on a level playing field. The 25 billion promised for new alternative cars has not been given yet. Progressives should rally behind workers that only want a decent standard of living. How many retired UAW members do you think have tax brackets that make them rich? Small percentage I'm sure.I'm a retired union electrician, worked hard for 45 years to have a good retirement, but I sure don't get in the tax bracket that will have to pay a little more, neither do the UAW guys. I'm just so pissed to hear the union get trashed for all the nations ills. Don't fall for the right wing crap, the unions have benefited all the workers in this country, but still 30% of union workers vote rethug. IMHO this display of heartlessness by the GOP will result in those workers waking up and returning to the fold. There is still work to do to kill the wealthy conservative theory once and for all. Support the workers, they are you and I. Respect for labor and a living wage, that's all we ask. Is that too much? we will see.

[madrchsod]

15. fools?

i guess that a charitable way to describe them. i`m giving up trying to defend the us auto industry with these people. if they are satisfied that america will lose hundreds of billions in lost wages and hundreds of thousands of jobs then i guess there is nothing anyone can say to change their minds.

[Historic NY]

18. the domino effect would be staggering to the country...

people seem to think that they only build cars...GM like most manufactures have a whole host of subdivisions and enterprises worldwide. They play a big part in the defense industry...the saying As GM goes so goes the nation, could really come to pass.

[ksimons]

19. i think they can wait until Obama steps into office

if they can't wait that long, then they'll have to do what they have to do - but I'd wait if I were them.

[LatteLibertine]

21. Fear based decisions

have worked so well for the country. Let's keep it up.

Let the people that have been overpaid millions bail them out. Add big oil to the list as well. They're the ones that kept them making cars that do 12 MPG.

[DainBramaged]

36. GM makes more cars that get over 30 MPG than all the others

do you Read Cracker Jack boxes for your information?

[MadHound]

22. Gee, didn't we hear this same sort of fearmongering during the bailout debate?

How jobs, our economy, our very future was at stake? And how did that work out? Oh, yeah, the jobs are still going pfft, the economy sucks, and our future:shrug:

Sorry, but throwing more and more money down a rathole doesn't help anybody. GM got itself into this mess, it can get itself out. It can go through Chapter 11, and either survive or not. If not, well gee, then another company will take its place.

Sorry, but I have little sympathy for GM, nor am I susceptible to fear mongering, which is basically what your rant is. What's happened the last few times we gave into fearmongering? Oh, yeah, the Patriot Act, the Iraq War, the bailout. Hmmm, as they say, fool me once. . .

[GrizzlyMan]

24. The OP is a poor spokesman for his cause that much is sure

But if GM and Ford go down, you're going to have a whole lot of people who have high school educations and who are used to making $70 an hour out of work. That's going to be a problem. If they are forced to "turn out the lights" someone is going to have to retrain those workers because they aren't likely to get jobs in white collar professions. That's my main concern here.

[DainBramaged]

40. I didn't write the OP, but that's OK

And if you think I'm a poor spokesman, oh well, ta ta. There are no WHITE COLLAR professions left to train any new for. I'd like to see your white collar on the line trying to assemble a car. It ain't like pushing a pencil, or do you think robots make themselves and make every part on every vehicle.

Such prejudiced misconceptions.

[Name removed]

45. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

56. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[GrizzlyMan]

57. Google is your friend

The OP is the cause for my animus. He is a LOUSY spokesman for the cause of the auto worker. Sorry if you're offended but I'd remind you it's against DU rules to accuse other posters of being Freepers.

[madmom]

63. I didn't accuse you of being a freeper just said it sounded like you belonged there. I asked where

you got the figure of $70 per hour. It was you who made the comment about the high school dropouts and their $70 an hour party. That is exactly the kind of disinformation the right likes to regurgitate and to have dems do the same gives it legitimacy.

[GrizzlyMan]

64. If you factor in wages AND benefits

GM's labor cost is actually over $70 an hour. It's not disinformation. ITS FACT. Sorry if FACTS offend you, but that's not my problem now is it?

And most certainly did IMPLY that I was a freeper by saying that this is the "sort of thing" you would read over there. It is the same.

[madmom]

68. Last I heard it was something like $40 something an hour including benefits, but that

would only be applicable if one received/used ALL the benefits. In these benefits they include substance abuse rehabilitation, legal aid (which we still have to pay taxes on whether we use it or not thanks to ronnie reagun), supplemental unemployment,vacations,profit sharing,holidays,life and health insurance. Now I really don't know how many employees use every one of these benefits but I know my family doesn't and there aren't to many that I know who do. So it's still only so much disinformation.

[GrizzlyMan]

69. Sigh....I guess I'll hold your hand and walk you through it

From the AP via USA TODAY....

CONTRACT TALKS AT A GLANCE

Who: Contracts between the UAW and General Motors, Ford and Chrysler cover 180,681 U.S. hourly workers and 540,344 retirees and surviving spouses.
What: The union has named GM its lead company, which means it will negotiate a contract with GM and then ask Ford and Chrysler to accept the same terms. If there is a strike, GM plants will be targeted.
When: Contracts were set to expire Sept. 14 at miidnight. Ford and Chrysler have extended their contracts indefinitely. GM workers could strike any time if talks hit a wall.

The issues:
Labor Costs: The three automakers lost $15 billion last year. Chrysler pays an average $75.86 an hour in wages, pension and health care benefits, GM pays $73.26 and Ford pays $70.51. Toyota pays U.S. workers about $48, U.S. automakers say.
Health care: The three companies have $90.5 billion in unfunded retiree health care obligations. They want to establish a fund — a voluntary employee beneficiary association (VEBA) — with part of that money and let the union be responsible for future benefits. The amount of the fund is a big issue.
Job security: UAW membership has fallen from 1.5 million active members in 1979 to around 576,000 today, and the union already has agreed to buyout plans and changes to retiree health care. The union likely is seeking pledges to keep jobs at U.S. plants in exchange for agreeing to the VEBA. The UAW says labor is only about 10% of the cost of a vehicle.
Associated Press


http://www.usatoday.com/money/autos/2007-09-17-gm-uaw_N.htm?csp=34

[madmom]

72. Well USA Today can say $73.26 the last annual employee statement we received

said $48 something so I guess it's a believe who you want scenerio.

[GrizzlyMan]

73. Yeah I'm sure the AP, USA Today, GM, the UAW and numerous other sources are wrong

And you are right. :crazy:

What part of wages + benefits (i.e. pension, medical etc.) are factored into this figure don't you understand. It's NOT JUST WAGES.

Get a clue already.

[madmom]

81. You purposely misunderstand or what? I said the annual employee report we receive

FROM GM says $48 something, it's not what I'm saying it's what GM is reporting to us. I'm just relaying what they told us, I don't know what they told USA Today or any of the others and I'm SO SURE they are ALWAYS right. So you can believe whatever you want, I really don't care! I do know that once a year GM sends an employee statement containing all one's pertinent information including hourly wages including benefits. The last one we received from GM said $48 and hour.That was the beginning of this past summer. So I think I already have more of a clue than most.

[GrizzlyMan]

82. You're talking about one thing, I'm talking about another

You are citing WAGES ONLY. I am citing the COMPLETE COMPENSATION PACKAGE which according to ALL PARTIES INVOLVED is over $70 an hour. Why is that so hard for you to wrap your mind around?

And IF your figure is $48, could it be that your local doesn't have as lucrative a package as the others who work for GM across the country, or do you claim to speak for EVERYONE THAT WORKS FOR GM?

I say again, get a clue.

[madmom]

87. Did you not see where it said "wages plus benefits"? Do you not know that

all employees do not make the same flat rate at any auto plant? They are taking the average of all employees. It has nothing to do with how lucrative the package is. I do not speak for all GM employees but I do know quite a few and I do know that they make nowhere near this.As I said they are talking averages here which is not a fair analysis. If one person has $2 and another has $98 the average is still $50. Yes there are some people at GM who make that much, but as a rule, no.

I say again I think I have more of a clue than most.

[GrizzlyMan]

88. The average is over $70

Case closed.

[madmom]

89. only for you, not for those of us who make much less, whether you like it or not!

Now the case is closed for me.

[GrizzlyMan]

90. Sorry you make less

But the average is over $70. Again, if you can't grasp that perhaps you better go back to college or get a GED.

[madmom]

96. Apparently you know nothing of averages or how unfair they are when reporting things

such as this. Person1 makes $2, Person2 makes $2, person3 makes $2 person4 makes $4 and person5 makes $90, the average for all of them is $20. Ten times more than 3/5 of all of them, yet they all have to take the brunt of every report that tries to make it look like they have it far better than most other people, when in fact it's just about even.

Maybe the figures you're looking at are before the latest contract where I know we lost on health care and wages.
For whatever reasons I know our figures don't add up and I know mine came from GM.

So maybe you ought to be the one who goes back to school and learn a little more on averages.You do seem to be a little bitter.

[GrizzlyMan]

101. Keep pissing into the wind

The averages are as posted.

[Name removed]

65. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Blue Gardener]

66. The suppliers DO NOT make $70 an hour!

I don't drink, don't own a boat, and don't drive a truck. I do however drive a Ford, and it's been a great car. And since it appears you don't give a crap about whether or not I have a job in six months, you'll be added to my ignore list, along with all the other a-holes who think I should lose my job.

[GrizzlyMan]

67. I never said I hope you lose your job

Why would you say that?

But what we want doesn't matter. Reality has come home to roost. I wouldn't sit around and wait for it to happen if I were you. I'd develop something to fall back on. Perhaps go back to college or learn another trade. Good luck to you.

[GrizzlyMan]

76. Meh....I'm sure there's nothing to it.

I'm sorry your little party is coming to an end, but maybe Honda or Toyota will hire you on to work on their line. I'm pretty sure they will be around for awhile.

[Blue Gardener]

58. I work for a supplier

To the big three, and don't make anywhere near $70 an hour. If GM goes under, I may be out of a job.

[GrizzlyMan]

59. Well in that case, I'd get a back up plan

Because it looks like they may be going under.

[Name removed]

37. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[tomreedtoon]

23. Hire the handicapped. They ran GM into the ground.

Yes, we should reward the people who screwed the American people and their stockholders. Assuming they get the money and "keep the lights on," what chance do we have that they will make cars that America and the world will want?

And it is "chance," because the auto makers have proven that they can't deliberately do anything right. And it's a chance that the UAW and associated unions have been forced to put their chips on, because their fates are tied to the companies they work for, even though they may curse the inferior cars they produce and the corporation's stupid work practices under their breath.

I don't want these companies to die. I want them to cocoon and to bring forth some kind of new life, like a car that doesn't rattle when you drive it off the lot, has good gas mileage and doesn't fall apart within two years. But I ain't holding my breath for it.

[DainBramaged]

38. How many years has it been since you bought a GM product? Or should I say

generations? DO you even drive?

[tomreedtoon]

105. I haven't bought Detroit Rust in a long time.

It horrified my late father that, after a Ford Falcon and a Ford Galaxie 500, that I would choose to buy a Toyota Corolla. And then he drove it. He hadn't seen an American car with as much physical comfort and as durable a power train. And I told him, "You won't see an American car like that."

I did, for a while, drive the Chevy Nova that was actually a Toyota chassis with an American logo slapped on it. Almost as good as a real Toyota, but just a hair lousier.

And yes, I have had to rent American rust-buckets. Awkward, built badly, uncomfortable seats, non-ergonomic, engines that sounded like they were on the verge of suicide. I couldn't imagine someone plunking down money to buy one of these beasts new.

And before you start yelling "anti-union" to me, let me offer sympathy to you. You union guys just built the cars. You didn't design, market or promote them. And now, your welfare is tied to the corporate assholes who made American cars the joke of the automotive world. You have to support bailing them out for the sake of your own survival. That situation is bound to make you cranky.

Or...are you still buying the raw sewage from the executives that the public will start buying SUV's in mass quantities any day soon? (If people do, it will only be to replace the houses from which they've been evicted.)

[DainBramaged]

106. So you don't own one, just as I thought

and you insult me and my products to boot. Go to hell.

[tomreedtoon]

108. I think that's where you are right now...

...and you're as unwilling as your dunderheaded bosses to realize it. I was expressing sympathy for you and your union brethren, because you were forced to make crap, and you get angry at me.

I didn't say "Go and make the cars better," because they were designed to be cheap, lousy and inefficient. I didn't tell you "go design a better car and make it," because design is not your job.

Instead of getting mad at me, and all the Americans that think this bailout sucks, perhaps you should start getting mad at your bosses and holding THEIR feet to the fire. Make them live up to THEIR responsibilities. But then, it's been a long time since River Rouge for you and the UAW boys, isn't it? It'd be awfully inconvenient...

[tpsbmam]

80. Could you please explain how your title relates to your post? "Hire the

handicapped?" Thanks.

[tomreedtoon]

104. If anyone deserves to be called "retarded..."

...it's the CEO's who have run the automobile industry. They are as much in the bubble as Bush. And they run in the same circles.

They ran their businesses without regard for both the consumers and their employees. Forget about the environment or national pride. Quarter-by-quarter profit was all they cared about. If you ever saw Michael Moore's Roger and Me, you know how hard it was for a human being to pierce the force field of one auto CEO. Imagine the guys up there now.

Auto execs are freaking stupid. They don't give a damn about anybody but themselves. If that isn't the definition of being mentally handicapped, I don't know what is. And we're expected to bail these guys out for helping to destroy the economy and hundreds of thousands of lives?

[kurt_cagle]

25. I think they shouldn't be bailed out

Yes, I'm fully aware of the hundreds of thousands of workers involved, and the cost to national pride and all that, and I think they are important factors.

However, GM (and Ford for that matter) are essentially banks that happen to produce automobiles. Because of the banking situation, what this means is that they really do not care whether the cars they produce are environmentally friendly or get good gas mileage, they are only concerned that they can lure enough suckers into the showrooms to take GMAC financing at make a killing on the interest payments.

What happens if GM goes under? The factories do not go away - they can purchased (and even in this troubled time, there are plenty who would). Perhaps if the unions are so concerned about their future, they should buy up one or more of GM's lines outright, then use that to create new companies - or partner with new technology companies that will. Perhaps the upstream manufacturers and suppliers should purchase lines as well, perhaps in a partnership with those same unions.

The union pension plans are in trouble because they have already been spent, this is why the desire to get out of the obligations of those plans is so high. Losing the high paying factory level jobs will hurt, but frankly, if you're making $70 an hour (about $140K a year) + benefits, then you're probably better positioned than most to invest in new automotive startups. Indeed, I think that perhaps if the people working in the auto industry spent some time looking at the startup model in high tech, they might want to think twice about continuing to work for a dinosaur like GM.

This is a time of great change, but you can either try to keep the change from happening (which is what a bailout of GM does) or you can look to the change to give new opportunities for making smaller, more agile automobile companies. This is essentially what the Japanese did in the 1980s, and its what the US needs to do today.

[DainBramaged]

39. SO foreign interests should control our automotive destiny

is that your answer? Saved by zero??? Only buy Japanese cars?

SO sad.

Do you know how many cars we are allowed to export to Japan each year?????


Do you know how many they import here????


Of course you don't, as with everyone else here you don't understand the dynamics of protectionism and unfair trade practices, and how we gave away the farm and how the wonderful Congressional representatives of the states with Transplanted manufacturing facilities are behind the destroy GM movement so their contributors benefit.


Learn the factors and stop thinking this won't send us into a long deep depression.

[navarth]

44. DainBramaged, I'm telling you for your own good

I'm on your side. But you are hurting the cause with the ad hominem. Tone it down, dude. More flies with honey.

[GrizzlyMan]

46. Self delete

[navarth]

52. GrizzlyMan.....what's with you? Is that supposed to be helpful?

I'm trying to cool him down. Please don't make it harder. He's got a contribution to make. I want to help him make it. Ok?

[GrizzlyMan]

55. Sorry

I deleted it but I don't believe the OP has any contribution to make.

[navarth]

78. no worries..but you know what? I think he does have a contribution

if he'll just calm down

[DainBramaged]

74. I speak facts and truth, I guess that's too much for some to handle

ad hominem? Stop buying imports that is the most insulting ad hominen I see around here.

[navarth]

109. man....

do you think acting this way is going to convince them?

will you please help instead of hurting the cause please?

you have to turn people on, not off.

I'm not going to give up on you no matter what. But others will, guaranteed. So you just end up alienating people. That's useless, bro. That amounts to just hollering at people.

[HCE SuiGeneris]

110. I'm afraid your words of advice are lost on him...

he decided to continue to attack me personally -- sending me an abusive PM, I guess because I didn't feed his anger here enough. His manner definitely leaves much to be desired.

[Blue Gardener]

60. So you want me to lose my job?

Because I work for an automotive supplier? That's real thoughtful of you.

[GrizzlyMan]

62. What we want doesn't matter

Reality has come home to roost, unfortunately.

[friendly_iconoclast]

26. How do we handle the overcapacity problem?

GM will probably never have the sales volume again to keep many, if not most of it's plants
operating.

They have too long used the "Build it, and then persuade the buyer to take what we want to
build" instead of the "Let's figure out what the buyer wants and build it".

Believe me, I'm *glad* GM has got stuff with the same build quality as a Toyota or a Honda.
I've owned mostly GM vehicles. I want them to do well.

But why did it take decades for this to happen? Simple, the management screwed off for a generation or more,
and only started to smarten up when things were in extremis.

Giving GM a bailout with current management in place ensures it will become American Leyland

[frogcycle]

41. It is even broader than you say.

It is not just that we need to "save jobs"


The so-called "economy" is a figment of human imagination. It is a house of cards - a ponzi scheme.

ALL of "finance" is a world of make-believe where humans assign "value" to pieces of paper or entries in a computer.

At the most basic, the only thing of "value" is food. That's why primitive civilizations were hunter-gatherers. What the heck did they hunt and gather?

At a little more advanced, people started building permanent shelters, then using fuel to provide warmth and cook food.

So the raw materials for housing and energy sources are pretty basic things with near-intrinsic "value" if there is to be much more of a society than, say, gorillas and chimps have.

Once those social groups form and start to reach out to each other, means of transport of raw materials, finished goods, and people start to gain "value". When one group had more of something than another did, they figured out they could swap stuff, and they needed to move it.

For a long time camels and donkeys were the primary means. Somewhere along the line "money" was invented to facilitate exchanging "value."

Obviously, we've gotten a lot more complicated than that. But the building blocks are still the same. You make something someone else wants and trade it for something you want.

If the United States manufacturing base finishes collapsing, the United States will collapse. Period. All the United States will have that anybody else wants is corn and soybeans. The "financial markets" are just the money - just the wampum. Values fluctuate wildly because they have no real meaning. We cannot sustain 300 million people on the income from agriculture. Period. The only way we could retain any preeminence in the world would be through that age-old method that the Neocons tried to invoke. We all know how far attempting to conquer seven countries in the Mideast got us.

It is that fundamental, folks.

Sure, a bunch of greedy, shortsighted bastards fucked up not only the American auto industry, but the steel industry, the electronics industry, the clothing industry, you name it. We export raw materials like iron ore, coal, pulpwood, hardwood, etc. and import finished goods. We send THEM our wampum in exchange for their labor.

But USA, Inc. cannot afford to cut off its nose to spite its face. The industries that the greedy bastards fucked up are OURS. We THE People! We need to kick out the greedy bastards and FIX THEM.

[RB TexLa]

42. This thread is hilarious. "You disagreed with me I will ignore you, I am smart, you are stupid.

Stupid, Stupid, Stupid. I will not waste my beautiful mind on people who disagree with me."

:rofl:

[Blue Gardener]

70. I don't ignore people because I disagree with them

I will ignore people who don't give a shit about whether I keep my job or not. That's just mean, and I have no time for people like that.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

47. Aside from its size, what makes GM special...

...and deserving of a bailout? The problems that you cite are true of hundreds or thousands of other companies which are also in trouble, and which are also more salvageable than GM. I have yet to hear an argument for why a bailout of GM specifically is important, other than "because it's big." If that's the argument, then fine, but I don't understand why GM should be bailed out when that money could be used to bail out or support companies that are perhaps troubled, but at least on a more sound financial footing.

[kentuck]

51. According to our Constitution...

I thought it was our Congress that appropriated money, not Henry Paulson?? Whose decision is it anyway?

[tammywammy]

53. If GM goes under so do a lot of other people and businesses

Recommended.


I think the current top management at GM could use a refresher course on Alfred P. Sloan. He never would have let GM get into this kind of mess.

[BREMPRO]

54. this just proves we have to do something about health care.

every time a car company is in trouble because it is poorly run, there is this instinct to save it because the workers will lose their health care benefits. We need to de link healthier from jobs and make it a single payer system without a profit motive, this will make it cheaper and more efficient, and also take the burden of business who won't hire because they have to provide health benefits.

[Lifetimedem]

71. Exactly

Somehow it is ok to bail out bankers that have screwed up, but middle class production workers be damned.

They need to ask who pays the retirement and health benefits ? Who replaces the taxpaying workers? Who pays their unemployment pay?


But the elitists have never cared about people that get their hands dirty

[Faygo Kid]

77. I am goddamn sick and tired of hearing how we have to bail out the finance "wizards," but not GM.

About half of GM's line workers are over 50 now, as the cuts have only left those with seniority in place.

Where the hell are these people supposed to go? What jobs can they possibly find? And what about all the retirees, and all the suppliers, and the incredible ripple effect?

Lizards like Charles Krauthammer may only want to bail out the hedge fund managers, but I will throw in my lot with GM, Ford and the UAW.

The backbone of this nation.

[Condem]

83. Agreed, faygo

Your state has suffered the most. But WE WILL ALL SUFFER if GM goes down. I'm in the car business (13 years now) and have never seen the climate like it is now. My father is retired GM and I'm am truly relieved that he has passed on so he doesn't have to see what his company has become. Or, his worthless stock portfolio, pension or health benefits.

[Faygo Kid]

86. All the best to you.

I actually live in Maryland now, and work in DC.

I guarantee you that if I make retirement in a few years, I'm going back to Michigan (Traverse City).

Take care, and don't give up hope. George W. Bush will be gone in two months.

[Condem]

91. Keeping an eye on those Spartans, faygo.

Capital One bowl, most likely. My Hawkeyes just might make the Outback. Good luck,Saturday at PSU. Take it from me. They can be beat!

[Faygo Kid]

94. Take it to the bank: Spartans to Capital One, Hawkeyes to Outback.

Spartans, win or lose, go to Capital One. Hawkeyes go to Outback, unless NW beats Illinois. In which case, you go to the Alamo Bowl, and I LOVE San Antonio way better than any city in Florida.

So you can't lose. Congrats! And ain't it great that Meeeeeeeechigan sucks?

[GrizzlyMan]

84. GM should have been given priority over the banks but I have a practical question

What will GM do with the bailout money? What is their plan for success in the future?

I'm all for the money being used to help the company, but without a long term plan it's just money being thrown at a problem. I'm not seeing much in the way of a long term plan from anyone.

[Faygo Kid]

85. There should be strings attached, for sure. But we can't let GM go down.

What a mess, eh?

Little did we know what the 2000 election would leave us with.

[BREMPRO]

97. exactly the problem..

I don't trust the management of GM to use the money wisely. They are asking for a handout with no clear plan on how they will turn viable. They've dragged their feet into fuel efficiency and make mediocre unreliable cars and trucks at the expense of their workers and consumers. They have a track record of thumbing their noses at environmental and safety concerns and seem to spend all their money on lobbying, advertising, where it should be spent making good reliable products. There should be new management and design teams, along with a clear mandate for fuel efficient vehicles (not 20mpg Escalades, but 40MPG or economical eclectic vehicles!)if they get any money from the taxpayers. They can't seem to get reliability, economy and appealing design with the current management, so the deal is, we bail you out, you hire new designers and management from successful companies like Toyota and Honda.

[JackDragna]

102. Probably the best post this whole thread.

Bailing out the auto companies won't do any damned good unless there's a system set up to guarantee their long-term financial stability. American car companies are notorious for planning for the short term and eviscerating their own workforce to increase the salaries of management. I will not support the buyout of the auto industries until there's a federally run oversight board that has say-so in the day-to-day operations of these companies.

[OhioChick]

93. K&R

:kick:

[marew]

98. Why we should not bail them out.

I bought three American cars in a row. The first one the paint actually washed off in the rain. Never saw anything like it! The second one, also brand new, came with a horribly rusted gas tank. It was months and months before anyone from the motor company took the time to figure that out. I can't even count the times I was stuck in major traffic for months on end after being told it was "fixed." The last one was a Ford that had a defective brake. Every few months it would squeal like crazy. When I took it in four times in less than nine months to be fixed I was told they would absolutely not replace it. I then said so it has been an ongoing problem but if it squeals the day after the warranty is up even if I've been back here every eight weeks to have it fixed, it will be my problem. The Ford dealership said "ABSOLUTELY!" They thought so little of my business (It was a $35,000 vehicle) and my time! Why should I care about about the US auto industry? I had problem after problem, headache after headache, with American cars. I have only bought Toyotas since and every single one has been great. Sorry, the US auto industry created its own problems. If I worked with no integrity like they have, I'd be out of work too. If they gave a whit about selling me a quality product, I'd care about them also!

[frogcycle]

103. This attitude is myopic

Sure they have had quality problems, and sure the execs have made mind-numbingly stupid strategic decisions.

But understand this: The US manufacturing industry is pretty much all the hell we have. It needs to be leaner, more competitive, lots of things, or USA Inc. is going out of business. We have already lost far, far too much - textiles, steel, autos, computers, electronics, and on, and on.

The US will be an agrarian country exporting corn and soybeans with 300 million peasants working in the fields if out industrial base finishes tanking.

I don't care about the assholes who sold me a Dodge Aspen that fell apart and told me to stick it where the sun don't shine. I DO care about the survival of the USA as an economic entity. Once the auto industry goes under, it is a matter of time before Japan, Europe, China start carving up territory for the natural resources. We need to make a bridge loan with plenty of caveats - hell, I'd go with throwing out the entire executive management team. But we need these industries to be viable. We The People need them.

[marew]

111. Of course, its myopic.

But the crap they put me through over so many years --- let them fail like every other lousy business has. After what they did to us and how we were treated just trying to get what we paid for -- I cannot understand why anyone wants to give them a break. They deserve to fail. They did it to themselves. What should they expect with a rotten product and horrendous service? I have a graduate degree and I never made even what the people who swept the floors in the auto plants made let alone the execs. There is no indication that they will change, not one bit. They very much saw what was happening and continued to do exactly what they had been doing. They drove themselves into this ditch. Let them figure out how to get out of it. I was a sucker three times already. Never, never again!

[frogcycle]

112. oh, I get it

It's all about you.

Well, never mind then.

[excess_3]

107. if GM goes under ... get a different job .n/t